Advaita - Buddhism in disguise?

April 20, 2001

Dear Shvuji

While discussing in these forums we are trying to do kirtana, a process of bhakti. Our sadhya is to glorify vada, and therefore this is also vandana, another process of bhakti, while we are also remembering Sri Guru's instructions and that is smarana, another limb of bhakti. So, we are practicing bhakti-yoga all day, as prescribed by our parampara. Actually it does not matter if the audience are the walls, or mayavadis, or bhaktas. We are playing our role. There is no question of to win or to be defeated in this process.

But what is your sadhya while studding advaita-vada and even bhakti-sastras? To gratify your mind? To prove to yourself that caitanyties are only fools? To pose as a scholar? To attain moksa? In any of these cases you are wasting your time. Your mind will never be gratified with this game, you do not need to prove the obvious (we are fools), everyone knows that you are not a scholar, and you will never attain moksa in that way.

Why don't you try another game?

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

sumeet · April 20, 2001

Dear Shvu I forgot to ask one question:

You say that Sankracarya is not lord Shiva's incarnation. This is only Gaudiya opinion based on the false verses in "their" puranas.

So I would like to ask you on what basis the advaitins say:

Just as SankarAcArya is considered to be an incarnation of Siva, govinda is popularly regarded as an incarnation of AdiSesha.

Check this out for yourself-

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/sankara.html

And also the Chinmaya Mission holds this opinion:

The prodigious amount of vedic knowledge he extolled often leads one to see him as an incarnation of Lord Siva.

Check out for yourself-

http://www.chinmaya.org/html/adi_sankaracharya.php3

Your Servant Always

OM TAT SAT

Sumeet.

sumeet · April 20, 2001

Dear Shvu

Also to further support my rather Gaudiya position that Sripada Sankracarya is an incarnation of Lord Shiva I found the following support:

The above verses salute the Gods and the Guru. The last verse is taken from the mAdhavIya Sankaravijayam, and praises SankarAcArya, as an incarnation of Siva-dakshiNAmUrti, who abandoned his silent meditation at the foot of the banyan tree, and incarnated on earth in order to teach advaita.

Check out-

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/Slokas.html

And please note that mAdhavIya Sankaravijayam

in which this sloka appears is probably the oldest available, and also the most authentic and widely known among the different Sankaravijayas today. It is certainly the most popular such text in the advaita tradition, and is also known as the sam.kshepa Sankarajaya.

Please review your belief of Sankracarya not being an incarnation of Lord Shiva. And if you still say that Gaudiyas are lying then kindly how you are going to disprove this fact when even the Advaitins themselves speak the same. Also ealrier you made a reference that Sankracarya being incarnation of Lord shiva was something that creeped in later but if it is a later addition then why is that the oldest and most authentic advaitin literature says the same.

Your Servant Always

In Service of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga

Sumeet.

April 20, 2001

>> I am here to show ignorant people like you that Advaita is not a false philosophy as has been falsely projected by the revered Acharyas of your Sampradaya.

Advaita is false because it is tinged by maya. It is mayavada by definition. As in your concept maya is false, this doctrine is also false. It is meant only for create laukika-sraddha in some mundane artifacts on logic and nothing else. You could not show any evidence of the everlasting position of this theory besides some mundane interpretations on sruti slokas.

>> You see, for an atheist, there is no such thing as a soul and hence no such thing as moksha. Surely it is obvious.

This is a solemn declaration of your own lack of intelligence. Advaita-vada's sadhya is moksa. If you are trying to follow a path and do not known your destiny, this is a cabal proof of imbecility.

If you imagine that Sankara Acarya is not a gunavatara, and therefore he is an ordinary human being, what is the profit by following the path of a suicide who was defeated in argument by a mere lama? And also Sankara Acarya was not even an original philosopher as all his points were already established by ancient advaitins. His only merit was to relate these points with sruti texts in his Sarirakhya-bhasya.

Your arguments that Sankaracarya has not defeated Buddhism is only another symptom of your delirium.

Many Chinese historians had related the exuberance of Buddhist monasteries, stuppas, and millions of Buddhists all over India 200 years before the advent of Sankaracarya. World's largest temple at that time, Sri Kesavaji Mandira at Mathura was a Buddhist center. Jagannatha Puri was also converted in a Buddhist place, and even the Deities of Jagannathadeva were transformed into Buddhist idols. You can read these relates in W.W. Hunt's chronic on Jagannatha Puri at his time.

It was Sankaracarya who re-established the Vedic worship of Jagannatha at Puri and also he has re-installed His Deity form as before, placing the old Brahman at the new images. No one may imagine that this was a pacific process. Can you imagine to go to a religious place crowed by fanatics and change their deities? Did you ever hear about the Naga-babas, the naked sannyasis sect founded by Sankaracarya as his army to defend the Vedic dharma? Sankaracarya has employed all methods to eliminate Buddhists, such as pranavam, danda and even by giving them unaware moksa out of the season.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

shvu · April 20, 2001

Hi Sumeet,

Good point. I was planning to post something on it soon.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Just as SankarAcArya is considered to be an incarnation of Siva, govinda is popularly regarded as an incarnation of AdiSesha.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note the 'considered'. It is only a belief handed down. There is no scriptutal evidence and Shankara himself never claimed to be one.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The prodigious amount of vedic knowledge he extolled often leads one to see him as an incarnation of Lord Siva.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again note that, it is not decisive. Some people see him as an avatar of Shiva. It is not based on scriptural evidence. It is a story.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The last verse is taken from the mAdhavIya Sankaravijayam, and praises SankarAcArya, as an incarnation of Siva-dakshiNAmUrti, who abandoned his silent meditation at the foot of the banyan tree, and incarnated on earth in order to teach advaita.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, that is a common belief handed down as said earlier. But not based on scriptures on nor any statement of Shankara. Now for the details. The Advaitins have a story that Shankara was Shiva. But it is not a decisive statement based on authority. It is a story or a legend and is understood as one. Madhva on the other hand claimed to be an Avatara of Mukhya-Prana. He also gave references in Sruti, to this avatar and it follows that a person who belongs to the Madhva Sampradaya has to accept Madhva as an avatar, as he himself claimed to be one. Very different from the Shankara Sampradaya, where it is a tale passed down.

The Gaudiyas quote a verse from the Padma Purana which goes as,

maayaavaadam asac-chAstraM

pracchannaM bauddham ucyate

mayaiva kalpitaM devI

kalau brAhmaNa-rUpiNA

His divine grace explains it as follows,

**

"The mayavadi philosophy is veiled Buddhism." In other words, the voidist philosophy of Buddha is more or less repeated in the mayavadi philosophy of impersonalism, although the mayavadi philosophy claims to be directed by the Vedic conclusions. Lord Shiva, however, admits that this philosophy is manufactured by him in the age of Kali in order to mislead the atheists.

**

This verse is spurious for the following reasons,

1. Mayavada is not veiled Buddhism as explain earlier. That is a false notion.

2. Shankara never debated with the Buddhists. Kumarila Bhatta was the one, and he was not a Mayavadi. He was a Purva-mimamsaka. This again shows that the info in the verse is false.

3. It says Mayavada is 'asat Shastra'. If such an explicit remark existed in the Padma Purana, then Madhva would have made use of it, instead of bothering to write a whole text against Mayavada. It must be noted that he has quoted other verses from the Padma Purana. But none of the Dvaita scholars have ever heard of this verse. On inspection, it was found that this verse existed only in the West-Bengal Version. This shows beyond doubt that it was inserted by someone, based on hearsay that Mayavada is Buddhism in disguise, which also is false.

Further,

In the Shiva Purana the Supreme Lord says:

dvAparAdau yuge bhUtvA

kalayA mAnuSAadiSu

svAgamaiH kalpitais tvaM ca

janAn mad-vimukhAn kuru

"In the beginning of the dvApara-yuga, directed by My orders, many sages will bewilder the people in general by mayavadi philosophy."

The above translation is from his divine Grace. It is ok except for that little piece on Mayavda philosophy which was concocted by him. The funny part is that it is talking about the beginning of the Dwapara yupa. I don't see how anyone can connect this time to Shankara. Besides if Mayavada was around at that time, then he is contradicting himself by saying that Mayavada is Buddhism in disguise. It has to be the other way around.

So in brief, these evidence are all false, and not even accepted by other Vaishnavas, let alone the Advaitins. And the fact is that there is evidence to say that Shankara was an avatar. The Advaitins are clear about that themselves.

Cheers

shvu · April 20, 2001

A typo...

The last line should read as,

And the fact is that there is no evidence to say that Shankara was an avatar.

shvu · April 20, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Advaita is false because it is tinged by maya. It is mayavada by definition. As in your concept maya is false, this doctrine is also false. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me call your bluff. Do you even know what Maya is? The term Mayavada itself, refers to the philosophy of Shankara according to which the universe is Maya, when Brahman is known. To say that some teaching is tinged with 'Maya', shows what that your knowledge of Maya is from comic book sources. I wouldn't be wrong if I said that all your combined knowledge on Shankara and Mayavada can be safely written on the head of a pin.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You could not show any evidence of the everlasting position of this theory besides some mundane interpretations on sruti slokas. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me educate you a a bit here. Sruti is eternal and consitutes eternal evidence. On the other hand, your prema bhakti was created just 400 years back and has no basis in Sruti. It is a real joke to hear you talk about eternal position.

Amazing fact : Your Prema Bhakti has no basis in the Sruti and there is nothing eternal about it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This is a solemn declaration of your own lack of intelligence. Advaita-vada's sadhya is moksa. If you are trying to follow a path and do not known your destiny, this is a cabal proof of imbecility.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All this time I thought that you could understand plain english. Now I take it back. You can try Wren and Martin. That will teach you the basics of english. And then, if you read what I have written, you will perhaps understand what an atheist means.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you imagine that Sankara Acarya is not a gunavatara, and therefore he is an ordinary human being, what is the profit by following the path of a suicide who was defeated in argument by a mere lama? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still not given up your 'burning oil' story? Your Acharya, his divine grace was of the opinion that Shankra composed the Bhaja-Govindam on his death-bed. Your stories do not tally. How about making your position consistent first? That will atleast take away the joker image that you have been projecting all this time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And also Sankara Acarya was not even an original philosopher as all his points were already established by ancient advaitins. His only merit was to relate these points with sruti texts in his Sarirakhya-bhasya.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:-)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Your arguments that Sankaracarya has not defeated Buddhism is only another symptom of your delirium.....

Sankaracarya has employed all methods to eliminate Buddhists, such as pranavam, danda and even by giving them unaware moksa out of the season.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As long as you quote ISKCON comic books, I don't see a need to refute you. But of course, I can always enjoy it as humor, which I what I am doing.

Cheers

shvu · April 20, 2001

Another typo.

'universe is Maya, when Brahman is known'

should actually read as,

'universe is Mithya when Brahman is known'

Cheers

animesh · April 20, 2001

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<TITLE>Hi Satyaraja das ji,</TITLE>

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Hi Satyaraja das ji,

I really do not understand what you are trying to say.

You say that Gaudiya-vaisnavas are not against Sri Sankaracarya.

You consider that Sankaracarya is none other that Mahadeva-Sankara himself, the highest Vaisnava.

You call Sankaracarya as the extraordinarily powerful incarnation of Mahadeva.

You accept that Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teachings would be impossible without Sankaracarya's contribution.

The above show that you have got great respect for Sri Sankaracarya.

-------------------

You believe that, to copy right his doctrine, Sankara named it kevaladvaita-vada, pure non-dualism, just to make a new market to the same old wine sold by Gautama Buddha.

You believe that Sankaracarya had to end his life by jumping into burning oil because he was defeated by a buddhist monk.

These things show that you have utter disregard for Sri Sankaracarya.

-------------------

That is why I am really not able to understand what you are trying to say.

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April 20, 2001

Mayavadis, Buddhists & Co.(from Padma Purana)

Parvati said:

- O Lord, O best of gods, I will ask you a secret. Tell it, for the love that you have for me. I have a great doubt. The sacred texts condemn who uses skulls, who applies ashes in the body and who uses skins of animals. My Lord, why is that condemned? O my Lord, is due to my feminine curiosity that I am asking you about that. You are wearing these things yourself. How is that possible? My Lord, please, forgive me this indiscretion.

As the place where this dialogue was joined was isolated, free from the public access, Lord Siva told this secret to his wife. Lord Siva spoke:

- O my goddess, hear. I will tell you this secret that is very amazing. You should not tell it to no one else. I will only tell you it because your body is inseparable of mine. At the time of Svayambhuva Manu, on those remote times, there were great demons like Namuci, that were very powerful, very valiant, very strong and great heroes. All them were devotees of Visnu, they were pure and free from all the sinful activities. They followed all the practices established by Vedas. The demigods were living frustrated on that, and led by Indra, they approached of Visnu in search of refuge. The demidogs said:

- Ó Kesava, only You can conquer these great demons, that cannot be conquered by us, the demigods. They don't possess sins due to their practice of penitences.

Lord Mahadeva continued:

- When noticing the fear of the demigods, Purusottama, Visnu, consoled the regents of the universal administration, and He said for me:

- O Rudra, O powerful Rudra, the best of the demigods! Arrange a conduct to be followed by the enemies of the demigods, the heretics. Narrate for them black Puranas, so that they go astray. Siva, you are very intelligent, also make confused sacred texts. Brahmanins and great sages that stray of Me always exist.

Approach of them for the devotion that you have for Me. Kanada, Gautama, Sakti , Upamanyu, Jaimini, Kapila, Durvasa, Mrikandu, Brihaspati, Bhargava and Jamadagnya, these are the ten malicious sages, you should approach them for the benefit of the world. Use your power to convince them about illusion. With your power, increase their malice and soon they will be mistaken. There is not doubt about that. With the great malice provoked by you, these Brahmanins will narrate vicious Puranas and they will spread bogus doctrines through all the three worlds. O Siva, wear yourself marks such as skulls, leathers of animals, ashes, bones, to deceive people of these three worlds completely. And also, Siva, you should prepare the order Pasupata with divisions as Kankala, Saiva, Pasanda and Mahasaiva (tantric orders). And also prepare a doctrine without any private marks, that is contrary to the Vedic lore. All the rascals will begin to wear bones, ashes, and other condemned marks and they will become insensitive. Therefore the malicious ones will describe you as the highest Deity.

Assimilating these doctrines, the demons soon will become averse to My person. Don't have the smallest doubt. And, powerful Rudra, whenever I appear as one of My incarnations, I will adore you, to deceive the malicious ones. As sooner as they accept these spurious doctrines, they without a doubt will fall down.

Mahadeva continued:

- O my beloved, after hearing what Visnu said, was very afraid , and I didn't know what to say. I took courage, and I argued with Lord Visnu: O God, if I do whatever You are proposing, that will certainty bring my destruction. My dear Visnu, is possible that I carry out this mission in the Earth. Your order cannot be disrespected. But, that is very painful.

O my goddess, after I spoke that, Visnu encouraged me and He said:

- That won't provoke your destruction. Execute that order that I am giving to you for the benefit of the demigods. My dear Siva, I will tell you your way of life, so you won't never be affected by any sin.

So, full of compassion , Lord Visnu gave me the 'thousand names of Visnu', the hymn called Visnu-sahasranama-stotra, and He said:

- Settle it in your heart, always sing this indestructible mantra. The great mantra of six syllables is considered Brahman, that that emancipates. All those who adores Me with devotion obtains the salvation. Don't have any doubt about that. Render your reverences to the one who is dark as the petals of a blue lotus, who whose eyes are like the lotus petals, who holds a disk, a shell, the arch Sarnga and who is covered by all the ornaments. Who whose dresses are yellow, who has four arms, the Lord of Janaki: " namo sri rama." This is the mantra that you should always sing. It removes everybody's sins and it grants the liberation even for the sinners. Singing this mantra daily, you will get rid for all stains. All sin that you are inccouring by using bones, applying ashes in the body, etc., will become auspicious things due to the auspiciousness checked by My mantra. Siva, for being satisfied with you, I will destroy all your sins. Don't fear. My name is not different from Myself. You will never be subject to adore any other God. Obey My order. I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead, adore Me mentally in your heart. Due to My love for you everything will be always auspicious.

After giving me this order, my dear Parvati, He said goodbye to the demigods, that went back to their habitations. Then Indra and the other demigods told me:

- Ó Siva, now be about acting soon, in our benefit, as Visnu has ordered you to do.

It was like this Parvati, acting for the benefit of the demigods, that I assumed heretic's aspect, using skulls, leathers, ashes and bones. My goddess, Lord Visnu gave me this order, then I prepared vicious Puranas and the heretical saivaist doctrines. Deceived by my power, Gautama and other sages had announced doctrines contrary to Vedas. Falling back upon these doctrines, all the rascals demons became averse to Lord Visnu and they were covered by misunderstanding.

They applied ashes in their bodies, they practiced severe penitences and they adored me with blood, meat and sandalwood. I gave them my blessings and they were very proud of their power. They were very attached to the objects of the senses and they lived full of lust and of anger. Lacking the piousness and loosing their power, they were defeated by demigods. And in the due course of time, lacking of all pious merit, they end degraded. Those who abandons the path paved by Vedas, fall down due my spurious doctrines, and they always end in the hell. My conduct is censored, and I am only assuming it for the benefit of the demigods. These external marks of ashes, bones, etc. they only seek to deceive the enemies of Visnu. In the core of my heart I am always meditating in Visnu and reciting the mantra that He granted me. This mantra is the hymn Sahasranama, of the thousand names of Visnu. The name of Rama grants utmost Brahman that is full of nectar and of constant happiness.

Well, my dear Parvati, I had just answered to you the secret that you investigated me. Do you have some more questions?

- Yes, speak to me regarding the vicious texts composed by the sages who has lost their devotion to Lord Visnu.

- Well I will talk about them. Just to remember how the greatest sages may be deceived. First I had composed the texts Saiva and Pasupata. Kanada composed the great text Vaisesika. Gautama proclaimed the doctrine of Nyaya and Kapila proclaimed Samkhya (atheistic Kapila, according to Srila Prabhupada). Brihaspati proclaimed a very censored doctrine called Carvaka. Visnu in the form of Buddha proclaimed the false Buddhist doctrine to destroy the demons. The doctrine of Maya is a malicious doctrine and is considered as pseudo-Buddhism. I am who that disclosed it in the age of Kali. It shows the lack of meaning of the material creation and it condemns the sacred texts. In this doctrine I advise to everybody to stop with their activities. Those who doesn't execute their duties are considered religious persons. I proclaimed the identity of the Lord with the individual soul. I declared that the nature of Brahmam is without attributes. This doctrine resembles itself to be a Vedic doctrine, but it is no-Vedic due to the principle that Maya is present in it. I conceived it for the destruction of the worlds and to deceive everyone in this era of Kali. By my order Jaimini composed the great doctrine of Purva Mimamsa. I influenced some of the sage that I has mentioned so that they composed Puranas contaminated by the inferior manners of the nature, where there is confusion about the Supreme Personality of Godhead as being myself. Matsya, Kurma, Linga, Siva, Skanda and Agni Puranas are in the path of the ignorance. Brahmanda, Brahmavaivarta, Markandeya, Bhavisya, Vamana and Brahma are in the path of the passion. Srimad Bhagavatam is very an auspicious and immaculate Purana and Visnu, Narada, Garuda, Padma and Varaha Puranasare in the path of the goodness. These Puranas grants the liberation and they are always auspicious. Those rajaguna drive oneself to celestial planets. Those in tamaguna leads to the hell. A wise man should avoid them. Vasistha, Harita, Vyasa, Parasara, Bharadvaja and Kasyapa always teach the liberation and they grant all auspiciuosness, they never made a mistake and they tell the smritis in sattva-guna.

The devotees of Visnu are never contaminated by these malicious doctrines. It is Lord Krsna Himself who grants them the knowledge for reaching Him.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

Jahnava Nitai Das · April 20, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This verse is spurious for the following reasons,

2. Shankara never debated with the Buddhists. Kumarila Bhatta was the one, and he was not a Mayavadi. He was a Purva-mimamsaka. This again shows that the info in the verse is false.

The verse from Padma Purana never mentions anything about Shankara debating buddhists. So I think this point doesn't refute the authenticity of the verse.

Some other things off the top of my head, maybe not so connected with this discussion.

The Vedic conception is that buddhism is eternal. Just as vidya is eternal, avidya also exists eternally. In various Kali yugas Vishnu incarnates as buddha and repropogates this philosophy. The Bhagavatam mentions two particular buddhas. One that has appeared in the prior Kali-yuga, and one that "will appear".

What to speak of buddhism, even other cultures such as yavana, etc., existed in previous kali-yugas. The worlds religipons come and go in cycles just like everyting else.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Amazing fact : Your Prema Bhakti has no basis in the Sruti and there is nothing eternal about it.

Some would consider the Taittiriya Upanishad to be refering to prema bhakti in the following verse:

raso vai sah, rasam hy evayam labdhvanandi bhavati

But that is a matter of interpretation.

And the Purusha-bhodini Upanishad (though it may not be as well known a text):

eko devo nitya-lilanurakto

bhakta-vyapi hrdy antar-atma

As far as duality in the shrutis, the katha upanishad states:

nityo nityananm chetanash chetananam

eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman

It is clear here. The one among the many, the one eternal among all eternals, the one conscious among all the conscious, that one is the fulfiller of desires.

animesh · April 20, 2001

Again to Satyarajadas ji,

You give some similarities between philosophies of Sankaracarya and those of Gautam Buddha to prove that Sankaracarya's philosophy was nothing new. As you have yourself written,

"To copy right his doctrine Sankara named it kevaladvaita-vada, pure non-dualism, just to make a new market to the same old wine sold by Gautama Buddha."

But at the same time you have also given many similarities between teachings of Sankaracarya and those of many Vaisnava acaryas. But you don't believe that Vaisnava acaryas have just given different names to their philosophies to "make a new market to the same old wine sold by Sankaracarya".

Why?

April 20, 2001

shvu..

Could you please give details of the Bhaja Govindam verses claimed to have come from Shankara.

How it came to be attributed to Shankara etc.

;^)>

jijaji

animesh · April 20, 2001

jijaji,

Just one request to you. Could you use some other username? :-)

shvu · April 20, 2001

Bhaja Govindam

Traditional Advaita Version:

During his stay in Kashi, he noticed a very old man studying the rules of sanskrit by Panini. Shankara was touched with pity at seeing the plight of the old man spending his years at a mere intellectual accomplishment while he would be better off praying and spending time to control his mind. Shankara understood that the majority of the world was also engaged in mere intellectual, sense pleasures and not in divine contemplation . Seeing this, he burst forth with the verses of Bhaja govindam. The first twelve shlokas are commonly attributed to Shankara. The remaining shlokas are atrtributed to his disciples.

Gaudiya Version (Or the ISKCON version as told by his Divine Grace):

Shankara during his old years had a change of heart[sic]. He realized that his philosophy was false. Out of this realization, he composed the Bhaja Govindam on his death-bed.

Cheers

April 20, 2001

>> Sruti is eternal and consitutes eternal evidence. On the other hand, your prema bhakti was created just 400 years back and has no basis in Sruti.

You are the self-evidence of mayavadi's imbecility. Prema-bhakti is not a concept, neither it is a philosophy, it is a sentiment. It was never created and it is eternally available. This is the aim of all religious system in all universes, and it is the veiled aim behind every pleasure one may have. Jivas are being reciprocating this prema-bhakti with Sri Hari eternally. Sruti will be only considered as an evidence of a sentiment when one is able to feel it. This is called realization. To read srutis without any realization and without aiming any realization is the main sympton of paranoia.

He are talking about mayavada's philosophy, that is a fake. A temporary system of belief, and meant to those who may have laukika-sraddha on it. Therefore it is a by-product of maya.

For certain you will say that Padma Purana is a false source of information on Sri Sivaji as Sankaracarya, but this is your own and lonely opinion, devoid of any expression, as you are not even a sampradayaka adavaita-vadi.

>> As long as you quote ISKCON comic books, I don't see a need to refute you. But of course, I can always enjoy it as humor, which I what I am doing.

We have nothing to do with Iskcon, as you well know. We are not quoting any Vaisnava's books, bur history books. Do you have any idea of the Naga-baba's sect and theirs activities? Just answer this point.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

April 20, 2001

why?

shvu · April 20, 2001

Hi Animesh,

Neat Observations.

It is quite obvious to all that SD himself has no ides what he is talking about. With his great missionary zeal [Prema-Bhakti is the only true Sanathana Dharma], he started to cut and paste stuff on Advaita and Shankara. Before he knew it, he had got some contradicting pieces !

Now unfortunately he is stuck with it and he is desperately trying to save face.

Cheers

April 20, 2001

Animesh says;

"Again to Satyarajadas ji,

You give some similarities between philosophies of Sankaracarya and those of Gautam Buddha to prove that Sankaracarya's philosophy was nothing new. As you have yourself written,

"To copy right his doctrine Sankara named it kevaladvaita-vada, pure non-dualism, just to make a new market to the same old wine sold by Gautama Buddha."

But at the same time you have also given many similarities between teachings of Sankaracarya and those of many Vaisnava acaryas. But you don't believe that Vaisnava acaryas have just given different names to their philosophies to "make a new market to the same old wine sold by Sankaracarya".

Why?

** Checkmate!

;^)

jijaji

(Animesh..I have used this user name for years sorry)

April 20, 2001

>> But you don't believe that Vaisnava acaryas have just given different names to their philosophies to "make a new market to the same old wine sold by Sankaracarya". Why?

Dear Animeshji, pranamam.

You made a very auspicious question, congratulations. This is revealing a sincere heart seeking after the Truth.

Actually our Vaisnava Acarya's business is to distribute prema-bhakti. They are not in the market of philosophies. But jivas have different adhikaras to accept their product. Therefore, to transform these jivas into customers of their product, they sometimes may prescribe karma and jñana as a preliminary platform to attain prema-bhakti.

Regarding jñana, they elaborate different systems of philosophy, meant to those jivas who are in that stage of sanatana-dharma's natural evolution (jñana-adhikaris). As you may know, Srila Ramanuja Acarya has proposed a philosophy named Visista-advaita, Sri Madhvacarya a philosophy named Dvaita-vada, and Dvaita-advaita, ®uddha-dvaita, are also proposed by Vaisnava Acaryas. Sriman Mahaprabhu has conciliated these different Vaisnava philosophies with His acyntya-bheda-abheda doctrine.

But is fact there is no anthological disagreement among these different Vaisnava's doctrines, as they are all savisesa-abheda. They all teach the eternal difference between jiva and Brahman. None of these schools accept kevala-abheda. They are also only different names to the same old wine.

These philosophical schools and their tenets are not the aim itself. They are considered as an stage, named sambandha-jñana. At this stage a candidate for prema-bhakti should at first known the difference between jiva and jagat, jiva and Brahman, Brahman and jiva, and so on.

Similarly, advaita-vadis defenders are always on sale their old wine, that is sayujiya-mukti. Sometimes it comes as a system of philosophy as preached by Gautama Buddha, other times as mayavada such as taught by Acarya Sankara, and in ancient times as the systems concocted by Gautama, Kapila, Ravana and many other rsis, munis, and other jivas and avataras. Sometimes they are Vedic, sometimes are not Vedic according different times, places and circumstances.

When we state that Buddhism and Sankara's mayavada are the same, for certain we are not saying that they are equal in all aspects of their misleading words and concocted speculations. We are stating that their aim is the same; i.e., sunyava, nirvisesa-vada, nirvana, and other kinds of abominable sayujyia-mukti that are against jiva's eternal svarupa.

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

April 20, 2001

>> You believe that Sankaracarya had to end his life by jumping into burning oil because he was defeated by a buddhist monk.

Actually what we believe or not is out of question regarding this subject matter. We had posted a version by a famous author, and he is stating that. We are not disregarding the Acarya only because we had posted a point related in a popular biography on him. Sankaracarya's followers should present another version on his departure. Maybe in a bed, during his old age (33 years), and reciting or witting a stotra glorifying Govindaji.

Please point out your version.

BTW: Don't you forget to explain the activities of the Naga-baba sect whose founder-acarya was Srila Sankaracarya himself!!!

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

April 20, 2001

The doctrine of Maya is a malicious doctrine and is considered as pseudo-Buddhism. I am who that disclosed it in the age of Kali. It shows the lack of meaning of the material creation and it condemns the sacred texts. In this doctrine I advise to everybody to stop with their activities. Those who doesn't execute their duties are considered religious persons. I proclaimed the identity of the Lord with the individual soul. I declared that the nature of Brahmam is without attributes. This doctrine resembles itself to be a Vedic doctrine, but it is no-Vedic due to the principle that Maya is present in it. I conceived it for the destruction of the worlds and to deceive everyone in this era of Kali. (stated by Bhagavan Siva himself in the Siva Gita)

Any comment? This was compiled by Srila Krsna Dvapayana Vyasa in the Padma Purana (in samadhi state, of course). Therefore this text is older than any Gaudiya-vaisnava Acarya, and even than Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's advent. It was translated by a board of scholars supported by UNESCO and published by Munshiram Manorhal Publishers Pvt Ltd (Delhi), who also publish books on Buddhism, Advaita-vada, Jainism, and all Vedic darsanam. (he is not an Iskcon member)

dasa dasanudasa

Satyaraja dasa

February 25, 2006

My Friends:

If I may be so bold, may I ask how many of those here debating the true nature of Shri Shankara's sublime philosophy have actually read his works? For, as I have read several, I see no substantial reason for this debate. Before one judges Shri Shankara, one is well advised to read his works. They shall dispell all doubts that his philosophy could ever be considered "Buddhism in disguise".

I have read the many comments that have been made here, yet I have still to come across a proper representation of Advaita-vedaanta as it is to be found in the very works that established it.

ajñaana-kalusham jivam jñaanaabhyaasaad vinirmalam

krtvaa'jñaanam svayam nashyej jalam kataka-renuvat

samsaarah svapna-tulyo hi raaga-dveshaadi-sankulah

sva-kaale satyavad bhaati prabodhe saty asad bhavet

taavat satyam jagad bhaati shuktikaa-rajatam yathaa

yaavan na jñaayate brahma sarvaadhishthaanam advayam

upaadaane'khilaadhaare jaganti parameshvare

sarga-sthiti-layaan yaanti bud-budaaniiva vaarini

sac-cid-aatmany anusyuute nitye vishnau prakalpitaah

vyaktayo vividhaah sarvaa haatake katakaadivat

yathaa'kaasho hrshiikesho naanopaadhi-gato vibhuh

tad bhedaad bhinnavad bhaati tan-naashe kevalo bhavet

(Aatma-bodhah 5-10)

sarva-vedaanta-siddhaata-gocaram tam agocaram

govindam paramaanandam mad-gurum pranato'smy aham

(Vivekacuudaamani 1)

Who, upon reading these words, can still have doubts regarding this issue? Who dare say that he disgraces the Lord? Or that he misrepresents the truth?

Respectfully,

A Guest

Pankaja_Dasa · February 25, 2006

That His followers should become Sannyasis. In fact all Mayavadis or followers of Shankracharya are Sannyasi's.

Sannyasi not mean having kids and living grihasta life.

Also it is a fact that the philosphy of Shankrachara is based on the world is false. Yet many say it is in fact real yet temporary. This will seem very small to many. But it changes the entire stucture of His teachings. If you say the world is real yet temporary, then you have to accept that this world is an energy. [temp].

The fact that Shankrachara rejected this world as false shows his amazing powers of perception, that in one single change He created a philosohpy which IS in fact covered buddisum. Because if this world is false, and Brahmin is real, then who created this world?. It is like when Buddha said to His followers 'I am God, but God doesn't exsist'.

February 25, 2006

Dear Govindaram:

I greatly appreciate your reply, yet I would like make this point:

To say that Shri Shankara taught that the world is "false" is a gross over-simplification of his philosophy. He says clearly that the world is "false" ONLY insofar as it is conceived as something independent of the Lord. When we say, "There is the world and here am I", the "world" we are referring to is a "false" one, for it is imagined to be something outside of Aatman and outside of Brahman. As Brahman alone truly exists, any "world" conceived to exists independently of Him is pure ignorance and vain imaginations, for NOTHING exists independently of the Lord.

Shri Shankara also states in very clear terms that the world is not simply "imaginary", but that it's reality is completely dependent upon and relative to the Absolute Reality of the Lord. When we reach true knowledge or "enlightenment", it is only the illusion of a "world" independent and separate from Brahman that disappears - not the world as it truly is: a relatively real manifestation of the creative energy of the Lord.

What could be more clear? And what could be more different that the doctrine of the Buddhists?

-Does Shri Shankara deny the existence of the Soul, as do the Buddhists? No.

-Does Shri Shankara deny the existence of the Lord, as do the Buddhists? No.

-Does Shri Shankara claim that the world is, in it's being, an illusion, as do the Buddhists? Absolutley not.

Shri Shankara claims the reality of the world is relative to the Absolute Reality of the Lord. He claims this world has no being and is "false" ONLY if by "world" we mean something outside of or independent to the Lord.

To paraphrase one of his many famous examples, perhaps this one may clarify:

The world is like a dream. While we are having it, it is very real to us. But after we awaken, we see it was only a dream and nothing more.

What could be clearer? Does Shri Shankara deny the existence of dreams? Absolutley not. He says dreams are very real. Yet their relative reality can only be judged by that of waking consciousness.

In the same way, one who is stuck in material consciousness may think this world is real independently of the Lord. Yet to one who has seen the truth, the relative reality of this world can only be seen as an extension of the One Surpeme Reality, Brahman.

A "world" as being separate from Brahamn: THAT world is "false".

A "world" as being a relatively real extension of the creative power of the Absolute Brahman: THAT world is "true".

When Shri Shankara teaches us to "flee this world", he is referring to the "world" as conceived independently of the Lord. For he clearly say that, even after reaching liberation, the wheel of karma continues to spin, and that we must perform our duty to those in this "world".

What could be clearer?

A Guest

Advaita - Buddhism in disguise?

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