Parabrahman 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2004 read this book on buddhism. By C.M. Chen. Tell me your views on it. This is chapter 17 in the book "discriminations between hindu and buddhist tantras". It's by a buddhist of course Supernatural Power, Buddhist and Hindu We Buddhists give most of our attention to the practice of concentration and meditation on voidness, through this, all the sorrows and the root of sorrow, which is the inner self, the eighth consciousness, may be overcome and transformed into Buddha's wisdom. We are not desirous of getting supernatural powers that will make the inner self strong enough to fight with others. When the farmer works diligently in the field and it is time for harvest, the chaff is gotten along with the rice; so we practice according to tantric instructions for full Enlightenment in this lifetime and when we become accomplished, supernatural powers are also attained simultaneously. But to the Western scholars or researchers, supernatural power is an interesting subject. They read books on Tantric Hinduism which describe many wonderful things and think that the Hindus certainly have no less power than the Tantric Buddhists. In order to correct this misunderstanding, I am writing this chapter. The main difference in this regard is this--the Tantric Hindus and other non-Buddhists have five supernatural powers: divyacaksus (instantaneous view of anything anywhere), divyasrotra (ability to hear any sound anywhere), paracittajnana (ability to know the thoughts of all other minds), purvanivasanusmrtijnana (knowledge of all former existences of oneself and others), and rddhi-saksatkriya (the power to be anywhere or do anything at will). But only the Buddhist has the final one, Anasrava, which accompanies all the others. With Anasrava, the above mentioned powers become limitless and greater in power. The reason for the Buddhist superiority is this: the Buddhist Tantric practitioner spends much time and energy avoiding his own sorrows whether gross or subtle. The root of sorrow is ignorance and the root of ignorance is the inner self. The Tantric Hindu, holding tightly to the higher self, limits his wisdom and power while the Buddhist, being free of even this, attains unlimited wisdom and power. Enough of theory. Let us look at some actual comparisons. We can begin with the scriptures. A. In Hinduism, in the book Mysterious Kundalini by Vasant G. Rele, on page 68, eight Ashta siddhis are written of: 1) "Anima--A yogi concentrating, meditating and fixing his attention on this quality of the soul during forced exhalation, draws together his entire energy to a point which is then made to penetrate into all bodies so as to make them vibrate according to the will of the Yogi." But he cannot again draw his energy from this little point into the voidness nature which is the final truth of Buddhism. He does not believe in that. 2) "Mahima--This is also a special quality of the soul. A yogi by mere inhalation of air makes his body assume a large size and comprehends the universe in himself as was done by Krishna." This universe spoken of is the worldly one and does not include that of Buddhism, and he cannot enlarge and extend himself from his universe to the voidness nature because of the same reason given in the last Siddhi. It is said in the philosophy of mathematics that infinity and the unlimited decimals are equal to zero, so the voidness can be both infinity and unlimited decimals. The Hindus have no anasrava supernatural power and they cannot reach voidness. 3) "Laghima--He can make his body as light as a feather so that it can float in the air or in water. The yogi's power of traveling thousands of miles in a moment is attributed to this Siddhi." Even traveling in a moment is limited by time. In Buddhism there are many good examples of this power, one of which was quoted in "Kundalini Yoga" (a Hindu work by Sivananda) as follows: "Once an outsider asked Milarepa for a contest to see which of them could arrive at the top of the snow hill first. This outsider is riding on a magic drum and begins to fly up the hill the next morning while Milarepa was still sleeping. When his disciple saw the outsider halfway up the hill, he called for Milarepa to get up but Milarepa continued to sleep. The outsider had almost arrived at the top of the hill. By only one thought Milarepa arrived at the top. The outsider lost all his supernatural power and fell down." Here Milarepa, though quoted by a Hindu worker, is well-known even to Westerners as the Great Tibetan Yogi. To a great yogi accomplished in the voidness meditation, there is no limitation in space and time, but to a Hindu there is the limitation of Brahma or the high self which I have mentioned in practically every chapter. 4) "Garima--A yogi increases specific gravity of the body thus making it as heavy as a mountain by swallowing large draughts of air and compressing them in the tissues of the body." The quantities of air swallowed cannot compare with that of the Tantric Buddhist. 5) "Prapti--When in Samadhi the yogi acquires the power of predicting future events, of understanding unknown languages, of curing disease and of divining the unexpressed thoughts of others." The time of the future is limited by the kapla of Brahma's creation and destruction, but a Buddhist is free from it. 6) "Prakamya--It is the containing of more than one's expectations and the power of casting off the old skin and maintaining a youthful appearance for an unusually long period of time. This is recorded as being true in the case of yogi King Yayati and Aleiluades who maintained unfading youth to the last day of their lives." Here we read that he has a last day, but there are great Buddhist yogis such as the lotus-born Padmasambhava who are still alive. Not only he but many, many others such as Saraha, Harvarapa, Biwapa, and females Such as Nukuma, Yishitoga, Sukarsiddhi who have attained non-death Enlightenment. 7) "Vasitva--It is the power of taming living creatures and bringing them under control." This occurs in Tantric Buddhism also. Even in Ch'an there are disciples who were tigers. In Christianity Saint Francis tamed a fox who had killed many people. 8) Ishitva--Obtaining universal dominion either in this life or in the next by means of yoga." The dominion of their universe belongs to this world, and is only equal to the iron cakravartin of Buddhism. There are still higher ones such as copper, silver and gold. The last one conquers those before it. B. In "Kundalini Yoga" there are also mentioned twenty-six minor siddhis which I have quoted below: 1. Freedom from hunger and thirst. 2. Freedom from the effects of heat and cold. 3. Freedom from raga-dwesha. 4. Doora Darshan, clairvoyance or doora-drishti. 5. Doorasravan clair-audience or doora-sruti and doora-pravachana. 6. Manojaya--control of the mind. 7. Kama-rupa--the yogi can take any form he likes. 8. Parakaya pravesha--he can enter into another body, can animate a dead body and enter into it by transferring his soul. 9. Iccha mrityu--death at his will. 10. Devanam Saha krida and darshana--playing with devas after seeing them. 11. Yatha sankalpa--he can get whatever he likes. 12. Trikala jnana--knowledge of the past, present and future. 13. Advandva--beyond the pairs of opposites. 14. Vak siddhi--whatever the yogi predicts will come to pass by practice of satya, prophecy. 15. The yogi can turn base metal into gold. 16. Kaya Vyuha--taking as many bodies as the yogi likes to exhaust all his karma in one life. 17. Darduri siddhi--having the jumping power of a frog. 18. Pat ala siddhi--the Yogi becomes lord of desires, destroys sorrows and diseases. 19. He gets knowledge of his past life. 20. He gets knowledge of the cluster of stars and planets. 21. He gets the power of perceiving the siddhis. 22. He gets mastery of the elements and mastery of prana. 23. Kamachari--he can move to any place he likes. 24. He gets omnipotence and omniscience. 25. Vayu siddhi--rise in the air and stay above the ground. 26. He can point out the place where hidden treasures lie. The above twenty-six siddhis are very common to Buddhism in the exoteric and esoteric schools. All those siddhis, even though the twenty-sixth one bears the same name as it does in Tantric Buddhism, are limited by Brahma. C. If we compare the supernatural power of the Tantras in both religions we will find that the power of the exoteric school is produced from meditation of Samadhi but that of the esoteric school is produced from both Samadhi and untying the lotuses (chakras). There is no mention of supernatural powers being produced from untying lotuses in "Kundalini Yoga", but in "The Serpent Power" by Sir John Woodroffe we find a few verses on this subject. Below I quote from a few Hindu works on this matter. 1. Shatchakra Nirupana, verse 13, states, "By meditating thus on Her who shines within Muladhara chakra, with the lustre of ten million suns, a man becomes Lord of speech and King among men and an Adept in all kinds of learning. He becomes ever free from all diseases, and his inmost spirit becomes full of great gladness. Pure of disposition by his deep and musical words, he serves the foremost of the Devas." But in Tantric Buddhism, the supernatural power derived is as stated above in addition to which the yogi gets the accomplishment of the excellent view of voidness corresponding to the stage of beholding the truth and gets all Supernatural powers of the first and second stages of a Bodhisattva called the greatly rejoicing (Pramudita). These powers as described in the Avatamsaka Sutra are: a) Achievement in one hundred kinds of samadhis, which are more profound than the eight stages of heavenly dhyanas. b) The ability to see one hundred Buddha worlds. c) The ability to shake one hundred Buddha worlds. d) The ability to know the secret power of one hundred Buddhas. e) The ability to pass over one hundred Buddha worlds. f) The ability to convert one hundred world's people. g) The ability to live in one hundred Kalpas h) The ability to know the beginning and the end of one hundred kalpas. i) The ability to enter into one hundred victorious Dharmagates. j) The ability to appear in one hundred incarnations, and k) each incarnation is able to appear with one hundred families around him. A Tantric Buddhist will never lose those powers. The second stage of power is one thousand fold more than this first stage. 2. Concerning the Svadhisthana chakra, verse 18 of the same book states: "He who meditates upon this stainless lotus, which is named Svadhisthana is freed immediately from all his enemies, such as the fault of egoism and so forth. He becomes a Lord among Yogis and is like the Sun illuminating the dense darkness of ignorance. The wealth of his nectar-like words flows in prose and verse in well-reasoned discourse." When the svadhisthana chakra of a Tantric Buddhist is open he obtains the supernatural powers of the third and fourth stages besides those mentioned above. The third and fourth stages of supernatural powers are one hundred thousand fold more than those of the first stage. 3. Verse 26 discusses the power of Manipura chakra as follows: "He who meditates on this Heart Lotus becomes the Lord of Speech and (like) Ishvara he is able to protect and destroy the worlds." We quote from verse 27, "Foremost among Yogis, he ever is dearer than the dearest to women. He is preeminently wise and full of noble deeds. His senses are completely under control. His mind with its intense concentration is engrossed in thoughts of Brahman. His inspired speech flows like a stream of water. He is like the Devata who is beloved of Lakshrni and he is able at will to enter another's body." Including the above powers, the Buddhist gets all the powers of the fifth and sixth stages which are more than one million times that of the first stage. 4. The Anahata chakra is discussed in verse 31, "He who has attained complete knowledge of the Atma, becomes by constantly concentrating his mind on this lotus, a great Sage, eloquent and wise and enjoys uninterrupted peace of mind. He sees the three periods and becomes the benefactor of all, free from diseases and sorrow and long-lived and, like Hamsa, the destroyer of endless dangers." The Tantric Buddhist gets the supernatural powers of the seventh and eighth stage of a Bodhisattva which are countless times more than the first stage and attains the wisdom of Sambhogakaya. He also gets four kinds of unlimited interpretations (Pratisamvid). 5. The discussion of the powers of the Ajna chakra is in verse 34 of this same Shatchakra Nirupana: "Meditation of this lotus enables one to quickly enter another's body at will and become the most excellent among Munis (sages) and all knowing and seeing. He becomes the benefactor of all and versed in all Shastras. He realizes his unity with Brahman and acquires excellent and unknown powers. Full of fame and long-lived, he ever becomes the Creator, Destroyer and Preserver, of the three worlds." In addition to these the Buddhist obtains the powers of the ninth and tenth stages of the Bodhisattva. There are no other powers that can be compared with them except Buddha. 6. Concerning the supernatural powers of the Sahasrara chakra, verse 45 states: "That most excellent of men who has controlled his mind and knows this place is never again born in the world, wandering as there is nothing in the three worlds which binds him. His mind being controlled and his aim achieved, he possesses complete power to do all he wishes and moves toward the Brahman. His speech, whether in prose or in verse, is ever pure and sweet." The Tantric Buddhist also gets full Enlightenment of Buddhahood in this lifetime. Not only the highest position in the exoteric school but also that in the esoteric school which is the great-pleasure-wisdom-body (Mahasukha-PrajnaKaya) in Vajrayana. D. There are ten excellent secret powers of a Buddha which give complete knowledge of the following: 1. What is right or wrong in every condition. 2. What is the karma of every being, past, present and future . 3. All stages of Dhyana liberation and Samadhi. 4. The powers and faculties of all beings. 5. The desires or moral direction of every being. 6. The actual condition of every individual. 7. The direction and consequence of all Dharmas. 8. All causes of mortality and of good and evil in their reality. 9. The end of all beings and Nirvana. 10. The destruction of all illusions of every kind. E. There are ten wonders or incomprehensibilities of Buddha. They are in two groups: the traceable or manifested, and the original. The traceable ones are: 1. The incomprehensible surrounding--the universe, sphere or whole embracing mind, Buddha and all things as a unity. 2. The incomprehensible wisdom--a Buddha's all-embracing knowledge arising from such a universe. 3. The incomprehensible deeds--his deeds expressive of his wisdom. 4. The incomprehensible stages--his attainment of all the various Buddha's stages such as the ten stages of a Bodhisattva. 5. The incomprehensible Dharmas--the three Dharmas of truth, wisdom and vision. 6. The incomprehensible response--his response to appeals because "All beings are my children." 7. The incomprehensible supernatural power--we have already mentioned these. 8. The incomprehensible preaching. 9. The incomprehensible supernatural retinue. 10. The incomprehensible blessings--for a universal elevation to Buddhahood. The original group of incomprehensibilities are: 1. The incomprehensible initial impulse or causative drive of Buddhahood. 2. The incomprehensible result or fruit in eternity, joy and purity. 3. The incomprehensible realm. 4. The incomprehensible response. 5. The incomprehensible supernatural powers. 6. The incomprehensible preaching. 7. The incomprehensible retinue. 8. The incomprehensible Nirvana. 9. The incomprehensible life. 10. The incomprehensible blessings. G. There are eighteen special characteristics of a Buddha which are different from Bodhisattvas. They are: His perfection of 1. the body, 2. mouth or speech, 3. memory, 4. impartiality to all, 5. serenity, 6. self-sacrifice, 7. unceasing wisdom in it, desire to save all, 8. unflaggin zeal therein, 9. unfailing thought thereto, 10. wisdom in it, 11. power of deliverance, 12. the principles of it, 13. revealing perfection and wisdom in deed, 14. in words, 15. in thought, 16. perfect knowledge of the past, 17. present, 18. future. H. In brief the Tantric Buddhist can have the same powers as the Tantric Hindu and infinitely more. You may ask why it is that at the same chakra the powers of the yogi may be different. It is because the wisdom-energy and the median nerve and the wisdom drops are different from one another. Those powers of the Tantric Hindu are like heavenly ones, but those of the Buddhist is of Buddhahood which is beyond heaven without the limitation of Brahma. Please review Chapters 3 and 6 of "Discrimination between Buddhist and Hindu Tantras." Furthermore, in our method of the holy flame rising up and the wisdom drops descending, the Buddhist yogi gets the four holy pleasures, which accompany the truth of voidness such as: The first pleasure accompanies the equilibrium voidness, the second pleasure accompanies wide or vast voidness, the third accompanies the great voidness and the fourth accompanies the all voidness. These four kinds of voidness are the source of unlimited supernatural power which is not in agreement with the high self of Hinduism. I. All of the statements concerning supernatural powers are true in a very real and concrete sense, but to the Western scholar who has no experience in practice, they seem like abstractions. Therefore, let me introduce an historical story which shows the comparison of the power of Buddha and the gurus of the six schools of non-Buddhism. Once Sudatta put all of his gold on the land of the garden of the benefactor of orphans (who owned the land) in order to exchange his gold for a temple for Buddha Gautama. The envious and selfish gurus of the six non-Buddhist schools then asked Sudatta for a contest in which the powers of the disciples of the Buddha would be compared with those of their schools. If the Buddhists won, they could build the temple, but if they lost they could not build the temple. Sudatta was very grieved. Sariputra, the disciple of Buddha Gautama heard this and consoled him saying, "Suppose they had enough gurus to fill the world, they could not move a hair of mine." Sudatta asked his father, King of Sravasti, to strike the golden drum to call together all the great people of Sravasti who were eighteen million in number. Among these, three million belonged to the six non-Buddhist schools. Sariputra sat in Samadhi and thought, "If in my past lives I was very grateful to my parents and very faithful to the Buddhist monks and Brahmans, then today they should pay me respect when they meet me at the assembly." As a result of his good karma, all of the gurus and their disciples who were three million in number, bowed down to him without their willfully wanting to do so just as the grass bows down to the wind. This welcome actually occurred. Among the disciples of the six schools, there was a well known one named Loututza who was very skilled in supernatural powers. First, he performed some magic on the ground and immediately a tree grew up with different flowers and fruits on it. The audience said, "It is made by Loututza." Then Sariputra made an elephant appear which had six tusks. On each of these there were seven lotuses, and on each lotus there were seven female angels sitting. The elephant went to a pool and drank all the water leaving the pool dry. The audience then said, "The victor is the sage Sariputra. How can Loututza be compared with him?" Then with shame, Loututza made a magic mountain which was adorned with seven kinds of gems. On the mountain were many trees with flowers and fruits. From his samadhi, Sariputra sent out a vajra. He held it in his hand and pointed it toward the distant magic mountain. It became dust at once. The audience was surprised and asked again, "How can Loututza be compared with the sage?" Loututza made a flying dragon and caused gems to rain from the sky and brought on a clap of loud thunder. Sariputra sent a kind of Garuda to eat the dragon. The audience said, "To compare powers with a Buddhist sage is only to harm oneself." Loututza made an unusually large magic bull with a large body, big feet and big horns. Sariputra sent a lion who instantaneously ate the bull leaving no remains. Angrily, Loututza transformed himself into a powerful Yaksha body with flaming hair, red eyes, four long incisors and emiting fire from his body toward the sage. Suddenly, Sariputra transformed his body into that of Vaisravana, King of Yakshas. Loututza feared his king and backed away to escape punishment, but the fire permeated all four directions. There was no escape. All he could do was to bow down before Sariputra and take refuge from him. After Loututza embraced Sariputra as his guru and many disciples from the six schools of non-Buddhists were converted, the Buddhist sage manifested many supernatural powers. I do not have the time to write them here because now I want to introduce the supernatural powers of Buddha Gautama. J. Even though King Bimbisara was converted to Buddhism, his brother still believed in the six non-Buddhist gurus. In vain the king had many times advised his brother to become a Buddhist. It was the habit of this brother to give alms to all monks regardless of religion. The following story relates what happened on one occasion when the supernatural powers of Gautama Buddha and those of the six non-Buddhist gurus were compared. The six gurus and their disciples had gathered to receive alms. The Buddha with his disciples purposely arrived late and the only seats left were those that were in the low section. Because of the Buddha's noble virtue and Supernatural power, all six gurus and disciples unwillfully moved to the lower part, and although they tried to return to the high section, the seats remained those of the low section. The patron began to give water for washing from the higher section to the lower but Buddha humbly said, "Please give it to your guru first." Those six gurus became dumb. They could only raise their arms to point to Gautama who sat in the seat of the higher section, far in the distance from them. The Buddha's prayer was as music. When the food was finally served, Buddha repeated that the patron's guru should be served first, but the food flew to the top of the gurus heads where they could not reach it. Upon Buddha's receiving the food, each of the others also received their food. After the meal, the patron asked Buddha to preach but he declined suggesting that the six gurus be asked first. They became dumb and could not preach. Then Buddha preached and the patron, his officials and family were all converted. With a grieved countenance and an envious mind each guru went back to his own church and learned some methods of magic. A demon transformed himself into a human body and taught them how to obtain more powers than they had before. Then these gurus asked the king whether they might have another opportunity to compare their powers with those of the Buddha. After receiving the Buddha's permission, the king made all preparations, but Buddha wanted all the people of five Indian lands to witness his victory, so when all the peoples of one province had gathered, he moved on to Vaisali, then to Kausambi or Vatsa-pattna in central India, and finally to a place called Sravasti which was controlled by the well-known king Prasenajit. Gautama manifested many kinds of supernatural powers in the Dharma assembly where India's peoples gathered. The six gurus, however, were unable to do anything. It is a rule that outsiders can do no magic in the presence of a Buddha. For many, many days the Buddha preached to his audience. While Indra stood on the left side and Brahma himself stood on the right. Both were the protectors of Buddha. Indra offered Buddha a lion seat. At the moment he sat there was a sacred sound which emitted from the five vajras and struck down all six gurus. They threw themselves into the water. Although in different tongues the peoples of India gave praise to Buddha Gautama as the victor and final Lord. This story can be found in the "Good and Evil Sutra". It is a trustworthy record. K. Now you will say that the above story was with regard to Buddha and the six gurus but I have said nothing about Buddha and Brahma, the highest of all higher selves. I will quote from the Madhyamagama Sutra. Once Buddha knew by his parocitta-jnana (ability to know the thoughts of all other minds) that the perverse view (Mithya) had arisen in Brahma's mind that all is permanent. Buddha flew to Brahma's heaven and after explaining that everything is impermanent, converted Brahma. Brahma then requested competition of their powers which Buddha agreed to. First Brahma magically hid his body but wherever he went Buddha could see him and said, "You are here, you are there." Brahma could not elude such magic. Then Buddha said, "I will try to hide myself, please try to point out where I am." Buddha then hid his body in voidness meditation. On purpose he let Brahma hear his voice, but Brahma could not point him out. Thereby Brahma's faith was increased. I don't know what Tantric Hindus of today think of this story. Would they have more power than Brahma? Your Lord Brahma has already been converted, so what are you waiting for now? My good readers, I must beg your pardon. It is not that I really wanted to write such a long chapter on supernatural powers, but only that I know you are so interested. Buddha's powers were so many that even those magic verses of his "Retractable Penis Sutra" are greater than those found in the Rig-Veda. Since I cannot introduce this sutra here in its entirety, I cannot help but stop here. As the village beauty is charming not only in her ornaments but in her nature, so is the Buddha's excellent virtues not only in his Supernatural powers but in his samadhi of voidness, in his Bodhi-heart and his wisdom. 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Parabrahman 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2004 i kno its my post but i have a comment on the last story about brahma. First of all, brahma isnt supreme, krishna is, second of all i would like to see buddha do that to krishna. But we all know buddha is an avatara of krishna, so of course buddha could fool brahma. Krishna is the one who enlightend brahma so if buddha did too im not suprised. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 2, 2004 budha is a form of the supreme lord who is direct incarnation of krishna.what budha preached is but a partial direct method of supreme consiousness.he condemned vedas since he is subjected to maya and he is not in a position to understand that it is supreme will everything is going on .so he got self realisation and according to his circumstances he preached some laws which are but a partial representation of krishna,since he is krishna's incarnation what ever he preach we must take it as a order for our development...................our friend posted the article on energies of buddism and hinduism. please both are equal and please try to serve the supreme lord,so that u will get such a consiousness that ur heart will get ecstacy of love and u will see every individual equal to god..try to get self realisation and not on energies ,,read srila prabupada books.........life is meant for not discussing non sense energies what ever purpose they may be but to serve supreme lord krishna through self realisation.........u will be alright soon my friend....................haribol....visu Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sumedh 0 Report post Posted November 2, 2004 Hare Krishna The fact that the person starts comparing the supernatural powers to show the superiority of Buddhists' position clearly shows that they have also an interest in such powers inspite of his claim otherwise. It is clear from the whole passage that they are interested in voidism to get rid of sorrow etc., and in powers both of which are essentially material in nature. Interesting that he talks of voidism and their approach to it which actually gives supernatural powers !!! So what is their explanation for where these powers come from in the first place when everything is void and they are aiming for it. There are many grave flaws in this, if we really want to dissect it. His quote of Brahma converting is a big suspect because we know that he is a God-realized soul (from Brahma-Samhita); we need to read the original verses to find out (it is possible they interpreted someone as being Brahma on their whims). Even if it is true we find nothing of sort in the vast Vedic literature, so there is little or no supporting evidence for such a thing. In fact just to complete the delusion of Buddhists such a thing may have been put in by Lord Buddha. The destination of Buddhists has been positively confirmed as being merging into Pradhana by all Acharyas. Also interesting is the fact that most of Buddhists, Jains, Tantric pratitioners talk of upto Brahma/Satya loka and other heavens only (or atmost Siddha Loka); nothing of true spiritual life. Anyways, devotees don't have anything to do with these supernatural powers etc. and its clear that their position to prove themselves superior is on the material platform only and have no logical arguments from the position of Absolute Truth as such (e.g. he never says why is voidism ultimate -- just only that it is the final destination in Buddhism which tantric people cannot reach). Finally Buddha Himself never talked of such powers, so this is only a later addendum by some to prove their superiority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted January 31, 2005 The buddhist and ancient indian brahmins share a common ground that or could I say all authentic paths have some object to concentrate upon, here one needs to stress that any object is possible if saying only one object like hare mantra then one is taken of demonic forces. so the concentration brings spiritual qualities both in all universal traditions, but who is called hare, buddhist, tantric its only a questions of chosen life styles, it dont have nothing to do with spiritual if you eat kebab or vegetarian. But when it comes to the how deep is the realization we have different traditions saying this and this is our qualities born from such contemplation, here too we can choose what we feel is highest Svasti, namo guru Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vishnu 0 Report post Posted February 12, 2005 buddha is not krishna. their teachings are totally different, buddha didnt believe in the eternal God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sumedh 0 Report post Posted February 13, 2005 Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam God can decide to preach anything at His own will for He is Supremely Independent. But if we really understand this we shall know it was only for our benefit. Lord Buddha is mentioned as the incarnation of God in Visnu Purana, Vayu Purana, Garuda Purana, Skandha Purana, and Devi Bhagavata; and of course Srimad-Bhagavatam. And yes, all of these were written before His advent. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.24 Then, in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Lord Buddha, the son of Anjana, in the province of Gaya, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful theist. PURPORT Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gaya (Bihar) as the son of Anjana, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas. At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal-killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal-killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization. He deluded the atheists because such atheists who followed his principles did not believe in God, but they kept their absolute faith in Lord Buddha, who himself was the incarnation of God. Thus the faithless people were made to believe in God in the form of Lord Buddha. That was the mercy of Lord Buddha: he made the faithless faithful to him. Killing of animals before the advent of Lord Buddha was the most prominent feature of the society. People claimed that these were Vedic sacrifices. When the Vedas are not accepted through the authoritative disciplic succession, the casual readers of the Vedas are misled by the flowery language of that system of knowledge. In the Bhagavad-gita a comment has been made on such foolish scholars (avipascitah). The foolish scholars of Vedic literature who do not care to receive the transcendental message through the transcendental realized sources of disciplic succession are sure to be bewildered. To them, the ritualistic ceremonies are considered to be all in all. They have no depth of knowledge. According to the Bhagavad-gétä (15.15), vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah: the whole system of the Vedas is to lead one gradually to the path of the Supreme Lord. The whole theme of Vedic literature is to know the Supreme Lord, the individual soul, the cosmic situation and the relation between all these items. When the relation is known, the relative function begins, and as a result of such a function the ultimate goal of life or going back to Godhead takes place in the easiest manner. Unfortunately, unauthorized scholars of the Vedas become captivated by the purificatory ceremonies only, and natural progress is thereby checked. To such bewildered persons of atheistic propensity, Lord Buddha is the emblem of theism. He therefore first of all wanted to check the habit of animal-killing. The animal-killers are dangerous elements on the path going back to Godhead. There are two types of animal-killers. The soul is also sometimes called the “animal” or the living being. Therefore, both the slaughterer of animals and those who have lost their identity of soul are animal-killers. Maharaja Pariksit said that only the animal-killer cannot relish the transcendental message of the Supreme Lord. Therefore if people are to be educated to the path of Godhead, they must be taught first and foremost to stop the process of animal-killing as above mentioned. It is nonsensical to say that animal-killing has nothing to do with spiritual realization. By this dangerous theory many so-called sannyasis have sprung up by the grace of Kali-yuga who preach animal-killing under the garb of the Vedas. The subject matter has already been discussed in the conversation between Lord Caitanya and Maulana Chand Kazi Shaheb. The animal sacrifice as stated in the Vedas is different from the unrestricted animal-killing in the slaughterhouse. Because the asuras or the so-called scholars of Vedic literatures put forward the evidence of animal-killing in the Vedas, Lord Buddha superficially denied the authority of the Vedas. This rejection of the Vedas by Lord Buddha was adopted in order to save people from the vice of animal-killing as well as to save the poor animals from the slaughtering process of their big brothers who clamor for universal brotherhood, peace, justice and equity. There is no justice when there is animal-killing. Lord Buddha wanted to stop it completely, and therefore his cult of ahimsa was propagated not only in India but also outside the country. Technically Lord Buddha’s philosophy is called atheistic because there is no acceptance of the Supreme Lord and because that system of philosophy denied the authority of the Vedas. But that is an act of camouflage by the Lord. Lord Buddha is the incarnation of Godhead. As such, he is the original propounder of Vedic knowledge. He therefore cannot reject Vedic philosophy. But he rejected it outwardly because the sura-dvisa, or the demons who are always envious of the devotees of Godhead, try to support cow-killing or animal-killing from the pages of the Vedas, and this is now being done by the modernized sannyäsés. Lord Buddha had to reject the authority of the Vedas altogether. This is simply technical, and had it not been so he would not have been so accepted as the incarnation of Godhead. Nor would he have been worshiped in the transcendental songs of the poet Jayadeva, who is a Vaiñëava äcärya. Lord Buddha preached the preliminary principles of the Vedas in a manner suitable for the time being (and so also did Sankaracarya) to establish the authority of the Vedas. Therefore both Lord Buddha and Äcarya Sankara paved the path of theism, and Vaisnava acaryas, specifically Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, led the people on the path towards a realization of going back to Godhead. We are glad that people are taking interest in the nonviolent movement of Lord Buddha. But will they take the matter very seriously and close the animal slaughterhouses altogether? If not, there is no meaning to the ahimsa cult. Srimad-Bhagavatam was composed just prior to the beginning of the age of Kali (about five thousand years ago), and Lord Buddha appeared about twenty-six hundred years ago. Therefore in the Srimad-Bhagavatam Lord Buddha is foretold. Such is the authority of this clear scripture. There are many such prophecies, and they are being fulfilled one after another. They will indicate the positive standing of Srimad-Bhagavatam, which is without trace of mistake, illusion, cheating and imperfection, which are the four flaws of all conditioned souls. The liberated souls are above these flaws; therefore they can see and foretell things which are to take place on distant future dates. And to confuse us mere mortals another incarnation of God named Buddha is mentioned who actually appears in a Kali-yuga of a different yuga-chakra (the cycle of four yugas) Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.7.38 When the atheists, after being well versed in the Vedic scientific knowledge, annihilate inhabitants of different planets, flying unseen in the sky on well-built rockets prepared by the great scientist Maya, the Lord will bewilder their minds by dressing Himself attractively as Buddha and will preach on subreligious principles. PURPORT This incarnation of Lord Buddha is not the same Buddha incarnation we have in the present history of mankind. According to Srila Jiva Gosvami, the Buddha incarnation mentioned in this verse appeared in a different Kali age. In the duration of life of one Manu there are more than seventy-two Kali-yugas, and in one of them the particular type of Buddha mentioned here would appear. Lord Buddha incarnates at a time when the people are most materialistic and preaches common-sense religious principles. Such ahimsa is not a religious principle itself, but it is an important quality for persons who are actually religious. It is a common-sense religion because one is advised to do no harm to any other animal or living being because such harmful actions are equally harmful to he who does the harm. But before learning these principles of nonviolence one has to learn two other principles, namely to be humble and to be prideless. Unless one is humble and prideless, one cannot be harmless and nonviolent. And after being nonviolent one has to learn tolerance and simplicity of living. One must offer respects to the great religious preachers and spiritual leaders and also train the senses for controlled action, learning to be unattached to family and home, and enacting devotional service to the Lord, etc. At the ultimate stage one has to accept the Lord and become His devotee; otherwise there is no religion. In religious principles there must be God in the center; otherwise simple moral instructions are merely subreligious principles, generally known as upadharma, or nearness to religious. So kindly bring an end to your speculations in this matter of ten incarnations etc.; there are innumerable incarnations -- Bhagavatam mentions twenty-four to give a feel. No need to unneccessarily throw out an incarnation in favour of your preferred one to accomadate in the list of ten. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.26 O brahmanas, the incarnations of the Lord are innumerable, like rivulets flowing from inexhaustible sources of water. PURPORT The list of incarnations of the Personality of Godhead given herein is not complete. It is only a partial view of all the incarnations. There are many others, such as Sri Hayagriva, Hari, Hamsa, Prsnigarbha, Vibhu, Satyasena, Vaikuntha, Sarvabhauma, Visvaksena, Dharmasetu, Sudhama, Yogesvara, Brhadbhanu and others of the bygone ages. Sri Prahlada Maharaja said in his prayer, “My Lord, You manifest as many incarnations as there are species of life, namely the aquatics, the vegetables, the reptiles, the birds, the beasts, the men, the demigods, etc., just for the maintenance of the faithful and the annihilation of the unfaithful. You advent Yourself in this way in accordance with the necessity of the different yugas. In the Kali-yuga You have incarnated garbed as a devotee.” This incarnation of the Lord in the Kali-yuga is Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. There are many other places, both in the Bhagavatam and in other scriptures, in which the incarnation of the Lord as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explicitly mentioned. In the Brahma-samhita also it is said indirectly that although there are many incarnations of the Lord, such as Rama, Nrsmha, Varaha, Matsya, Kurma and many others, the Lord Himself sometimes incarnates in person. Lord Krsna and Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are not, therefore, incarnations, but the original source of all other incarnations. This will be clearly explained in the next sloka. So the Lord is the inexhaustible source for innumerable incarnations which are not always mentioned. But such incarnations are distinguished by specific extraordinary feats which are impossible to be performed by any living being. That is the general test to identify an incarnation of the Lord, directly and indirectly empowered. Some incarnations mentioned above are almost plenary portions. For instance, the Kumäras are empowered with transcendental knowledge. Sri Narada is empowered with devotional service. Maharaja Prthu is an empowered incarnation with executive function. The Matsya incarnation is directly a plenary portion. So the innumerable incarnations of the Lord are manifested all over the universes constantly, without cessation, as water flows constantly from waterfalls. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.27 All the rsis, Manus, demigods and descendants of Manu, who are especially powerful, are plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord. This also includes the Prajapatis. PURPORT Those who are comparatively less powerful are called vibhuti, and those who are comparatively more powerful are called avesa incarnations. Just to make sure you do not misunderstand, there is a difference in these avataars from tattva point of view i.e. Lord Matsya, Nrsimha, Rama, Krishna, Kalki are vishnu-tattva directly the Personality of Godhead (the only difference in them is with regards to what is "visible" to us in the mundane sense) while Narada, Vyasa, Buddha etc. are empowered incarnations i.e. jivas specifically empowered by the Lord. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vishnu 0 Report post Posted February 14, 2005 God am I confused here. oh well, sooner or later ill get the proper info. no need to worry. thanks for the info Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vishnu 0 Report post Posted February 14, 2005 What should i think of this then? "We first heard of these events from a number of Burmese church leaders, who investigated the reports and have no doubt as to their authenticity. We report them in good faith after checking their authenticity as much as we could reasonably be expected to do." In 1998, a Buddhist monk died. A few days later, his funeral was held, at which he was to be cremated. From the smell, it was obvious that his body had already started to decompose - he was very clearly dead! Hundreds of monks and relatives of the dead man attended the funeral. Just as the body was about to be burned, the dead monk suddenly sat up. The events shocked the whole region. Over 300 monks became Christians and started to study the Bible. Tapes of the monk's report were distributed throughout Myanmar. The Buddhist hierarchy and the government were soon alarmed, and they arrested the monk. He has not been seen since, and it is feared that he was killed to keep him silent. It is now a serious crime to listen to the tapes, because the government wants to dampen the sensation. Text of the taped message follows:- "My name is Athet Pyan Shintaw Paulu. I was born in 1958. When I became 18 years of age, my Buddhist parents sent me as a novice to a monastery. At 19, I became a monk, entering a monastery, where I was instructed by probably the most famous Buddhist teacher of the time, who was killed in a car crash in 1983. I was given a new name when I entered the monastery. I tried to deny my own selfish thoughts and desires; even when mosquitoes landed on my arm, I would let them bite me instead of brushing them away. I became very ill, and the doctors diagnosed a combination of Malaria and Yellow Fever. After a month in hospital, they told me that they could do no more for me, and discharged me so that I could prepare myself for my death. Back in the monastery, I became ever weaker, and finally lost consciousness. I only discovered that I had died later: my body started to decay and smelled of death, my heart had ceased beating. My body was put through the Buddhist cleansing rites. I found myself in a powerful storm which blew everything away. Not a single tree, nothing was left standing. I was in an empty plain. After some time, I crossed a river, and saw a terrible lake of fire. I was confused, because Buddhism knows no such thing. I did not know that it was Hell until I met Yama, the King of Hell. His face was that of a lion, his feet like snakes, and he had many horns on his head. When I asked his name, he said 'I am the King of Hell, the Destroyer'. I then saw the saffron-coloured robes of Myanmar's monks in the fire, and upon looking closer, saw the shaven head of my former teacher who had been killed in a car accident. 'Why is he in the lake of fire?' I asked. 'He was a very good teacher. 'Yes, he was a good teacher,' said Yama, 'but he did not believe in Jesus Christ. That's why he is in Hell.' I was then shown another man, with long hair bound in a ball on the left side of his head. He also wore a robe, and when I asked who he was, I was told 'Gautama', (Buddha).' I was distraught. Buddha in Hell, with all of his ethics and moral character?' 'It is not important how good he was. He did not believe in the eternal God, so he is in Hell,' answered the King of Hell. I also saw Aung San, the revolutionary leader. 'He is here because he persecuted and killed Christians, but mainly because he did not believe in Jesus Christ,' I was told. Another man was very tall, wearing armour and carrying a sword and shield. He had a wound on his forehead. He was larger than anyone else I could see, around 22 feet tall. The King of Hell said 'That is Goliath, who is in Hell because he mocked the eternal God and his servant David.' I had never heard of either Goliath or David. Another 'King of Hell' approached me and asked 'Are you also going into the lake of fire?'. 'No,' I said, 'I am just here to look.' 'You are right,' the creature said. 'You only came to look. I can't find your name. You'll have to go back to where you came from.' On the way back, I saw two paths, one wide, one narrow. The narrow path, which I followed for about an hour, was soon made of pure gold. I could see my own reflection perfectly! A man calling himself Peter told me 'Now go back to tell the people who worship Buddha and other gods that they will end up in Hell if they do not change. They should believe in Jesus. He then gave me a new name: Athet Pyan Shintaw Paulu (Paul, who returned to life). The next thing I heard was my mother crying. 'Son, why are you leaving us now?!' I realised that I was lying in a coffin. When I moved, my parents cried out 'He's alive!', but the others around them did not believe them. When they saw me, they were frozen with fear, and started shouting 'It's a ghost!'. I noticed that I was sitting in about 3 1/2 cups of an odorous liquid, which must have come from my body as I lay in the coffin. I was told that they were about to cremate me. When a monk dies, his name, age and the number of years of his service as a monk are inscribed in the coffin. I had already been registered as dead, but as you can see, I'm alive!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sumedh 0 Report post Posted February 14, 2005 Dear Vishnu Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam Really even on face value we can find so many errors in this. Firstly because Bible (or any other scripture) does not mention the name of the King of Hell (please correct me if i am wrong) they pick Yama from the Vedic texts. Then Yamadeva is talking about Jesus Christ; O he has apparently left His dearmost Krishna and now is enacting new principles of belief in Jesus as the religion!! Normally no souls directly meet Yamadeva anymore than you would be greeted by President of US on taking birth here (okay this may be an exception) but even by any chance if one does he would first be lead by Yamadutas. Then he says 'I am the King of Hell, the Destroyer', from when did Yamadeva take on the job of Lord Shiva of destruction. Then he sees the monks still dressed in saffron robes -- maybe they disrobed their dead bodies and brought those alongwith!! and so on ... In Burma where there are Buddhists there will be NDEs where Lord Buddha goes to hell; in India there will be NDEs where Lord Krishna goes to hell and in competition Muslims have NDEs where Jesus Christ goes to hell. Why have you based your trust and faith in these NDEs rather than in the teachings of Jesus? Even if you cannot consider Buddha to be an incarnation of Lord then see his life. He had unbound compassion for all living entities, he was running hither-tither to save everybody from the pangs of material existence. And to even imagine that such a great soul would go to hell!! Use a little bit of logic; can the source of all love that all-compassionate Lord send such a soul to hell. Then the other foolish proposition of christians of eternal hell. From when did a portion of material world became eternal, only the spiritual world is eternal. And the Lord has become such a brute that he will let His dear children go eternally to hell; and His children who happen to be born among say tribes are all by default going to eternal hell? Ask the Lord in your heart; think from unbiased point of view. Can you not see what would have Lord Jesus Christ thought of such a soul. Now for this and the other NDE of emmanuel you posted. Dear Vishnu please don't be so naive especially with so many NDE's floating around nowadays. We live in dangerous times where frauds abound, indeed it is quite difficult to find one truly genuine person what to speak of God-realized soul. Only trust the Lord in your heart; He is our dearmost companion. We cannot understand the depth of His love, He has been chasing us as the SuperSoul since time immemorial in these material worlds not leaving us for even minutest fraction of second. He has given us the mind and intellect; use them to good effect. Do not abandon unbiased rational thought for this is His precious gift in human life. If you take my advise stop this NDE business completely and rather spend that on praying sincerely to God. And please definitely do not post such NDEs here; no one's interested and it will be only a matter of time before devotees come down hard on them -- don't test their patience. Most devotees here are experiencing the results of their bhajan for their dear Lord and would not leave Him even if actually subjected to hell or whatever you may think of what to speak of reported "NDEs", and if you wish to impress your beliefs on them the result could turn out to be opposite for your own good. If you really wish to show some kind of super-excellent position of Jesus over and above all then talk of his teachings and philosophy which incidently are already accepted by (most of) devotees. So really we have no issues in that area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vishnu 0 Report post Posted February 15, 2005 Well, thank you for stating one argument for me to believe vishnu and jesus are one and the same:the hellgod of hindu culture yama, comes into a christian NDE. hardly what id call error. they didnt pick anything, that man had this experience and was killed for it probably since he wasnt heard of after his experience soon. No, of course he didnt leave krishna, it only proves my point. Jesus is vishnu, or his son. Since jesus, religion has evolved so to speak. new things to believe in. the fact that they wear their clothes means just as little as that they still have a body, often in OBE people are not naked at all. Well actually no, ive never heard of an NDE in which Lord Krishna or jesus christ goes to hell-apart of course from his sacrifice. I didnt base my trust in them. I see they go right along with biblical teachings, and some with hindu teachings, or plain both. including one were the magnificent being of Light changed both into krishna jesus buddha and other religious icons. I just want to learn to truth. I cannot check his life, because i dont know it. what i do know is that he lived in an age were, if he is not God himself, had vedic texts telling him how to life live and about the eternal God, and he never speaks of this eternal God at all, he speaks against animal sacrifices, which is not at all godly. Like hippies going against the church and prochemicaldrugs and proabortion and proeuthanasia in the name of love-when they are all evil things. God gives plenty of signs and foolishly they dont believe and think they know better. God pulls with his light and prideheartedness created a godless totally new religion straying many souls on a false path. whats so good about that? (im just offering a different scenario, i dont say i know a thing) If God judges anyone to eternal hell, he must have good reasons for doing so. i know one thing:no true godly compassion will ever proclaim there is no God. Likewise, God has his reasons for eternal hell if its so. (and i think somehow it is so indeed) remember we are judged at our own judgement. Its like we cannot forgive someone when he ows us 26 merits/gold, when we ourselves have hurt God so much with our sins that we owe him billions of merits/gold. Also, i dont see it as God is a judge. i once compared it with a canyon, which is hell. People are running toward it, (sin) God stands before it and many people try to stop the people from entering in hell. but God has to sacrifice more and more and hurt himself more and more to save a soul from hell, and all he gets is being mocked by the ungrateful souls. in the end, he can do no more. cuz love is selfsacrifice-and they just wont listen. its their own doing. also, you can serve good (jesus) or bad(satan). its only rightful to go after the one you have worshipped and served during your life, and then the sinner finds out what he did in life -sin- may have looked good but was rotten to the core. satan likes to torment. Eternal hell is never said to be material-but material world is part of spiritual. Children? who are the children of God? being a soul doesnt make you a child of God. A child of god loves. Jesus called religious leaders of the nation , pharisees and scribes, children of the devil. No, I don't think you will go to hell for being born in a wrong place, which is why i love to read the #NDE of the jewish man, cuz anyone can love, when its much harder to know christ if youve been born in a muslim country. I just hope there is not a part of my heart which allows satans and deceivers. yeah, im not that much in NDE as you think i am /images/graemlins/smile.gif only thing which devotees dont accept, is his cross. Godbless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sumedh 0 Report post Posted February 15, 2005 Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam I think this is becoming completely non-sensical; i will only address the logical points. Consider this my last post on this topic, unless you have some questions. Well, thank you for stating one argument for me to believe vishnu and jesus are one and the same:the hellgod of hindu culture yama, comes into a christian NDE. It is in Burma where Vedic culture has much effect; they know about Lord Rama, Lord Krishna etc. and their pastimes (and Yamaraja too). Same is the case in Indonesia/Malaysia etc. where there are Hindu temples because they were under the rule of Chola and other Kings at one point of history. the fact that they wear their clothes means just as little as that they still have a body, often in OBE people are not naked at all. What you mean by "not naked"? OBE or NDE means without body outside body, then where does the question of naked or not naked arise -- there is no body where is the question of clothes. It is only the subtle body which is incidently not visible with these eyes else others would be seeing the disembodied person. Okay, i am not speaking anymore on this for it is only giving a semblence of credibility from my side. Just to confuse you, see this http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen045.html No i don't endorse this. I cannot check his life, because i dont know it. Then don't speak about him -- okay. he never speaks of this eternal God at all, he speaks against animal sacrifices, which is not at all godly. Since you know nothing about Him and still have the audacity to formulate some nonsensical ideas, let me tell you that Lord Buddha maintained a "Golden Silence" on the question of Supreme Lord. When someone asked Him about the Supreme Lord He said that stay with me for (something like) three years and then you will understand the answer to this question. You did not even consider for a moment that what will remain of your situation if you are wrong, and Jesus and Buddha turn out to be intimately related and Jesus is angry for saying and thinking such things for Lord Buddha. If God judges anyone to eternal hell, he must have good reasons for doing so. ... Likewise, God has his reasons for eternal hell if its so. You sure you know the meaning of ETERNAL -- yes it means ETERNAL; let us see: age of Lord Brahma which is the age of a universe in one cycle is some trillion years, and that is not even a flash in ETERNITY, in fact from the point of ETERNITY it is zero; so ETERNITY is not one trillion years, not 10^100000000000^1000000000000 years; all these are precisely zero in the context of ETERNITY. However large number you can IMAGINE (fill the whole universe with 10000...) is precisely zero when compared to ETERNITY. Good luck with your beliefs. You want to remain in your make believe world, no problems. But if you want to know the Truth then pray to Lord with devotion daily, for two hours or more. Yes and do give up meat-eating, intoxicants if you sincerely want to try this. We must become like Jesus in this lifetime; trust no after-life future however bright some may claim to be; see God in His complete splendour in this very life and learn ALL Truths from Him. i know one thing:no true godly compassion will ever proclaim there is no God. You know nothing. If God orders to, then His devotees will do anything what to speak of claiming no God. See Yamadeva, for example, who despite his immense compassion puts jivas through suffering in accordance with their deeds as desired by God. God has to sacrifice more and more and hurt himself more and more to save a soul from hell, and all he gets is being mocked by the ungrateful souls. You mock God's infinite nature and potencies by such statements; why on earth will He hurt Himself? Then again you contradict yourself when you said that God can forgive sins and now are saying He suffers for our sins. You read/imagine things and believe them to be true if they fit in with your feelings; indeed such kinds of self-hypnosis is very powerful as can be seen from your responses. No, I don't think you will go to hell for being born in a wrong place, which is why i love to read the #NDE of the jewish man, cuz anyone can love, when its much harder to know christ if youve been born in a muslim country. Your thinking makes no difference to the fact that millions (if not billions) of people do not even come to know of God (either Jesus/Krishna/Allah/...) in their lifetimes because of their being born in such places (like primitive tribal areas etc.). Billions trillions have already died after been born in such areas in the past without having any idea of God nor having gotten even a slightest oportunity to know about Him, so they all went to hell in your consideration. And of course all animals/plants are going to hell anyways, or you believe they have no souls contradicting the Jewish NDE which you so love. Jesus called religious leaders of the nation , pharisees and scribes, children of the devil. By saying this you present Jesus in poor light and i strongly contest this. No Jesus never and can never say this. A pure devotee like Jesus knows and sees everyone and everything as part and parcel of God. You say that source of everyone and everything is not God. So now there are two Gods, one God and other a lesser God called devil/satan. I just hope there is not a part of my heart which allows satans There is no satan; he is only your figment of imagination -- "Satan" only means the tendency to enjoy separately from God i.e. incorrect use of our free-will. God is Omnipotent and He has no competitor even remotely, contrary to what you may want to believe. If anything by thinking of Lord Buddha as going to hell or as child of devil despite having been given full information otherwise, you are indeed letting "satan in your heart" in your own words. I can understand that you have strong beliefs and questioning them will constitute a grave crisis of faith for you, so you can go to any extent to justify them. But if you do not keep an open mind there is no possibility of getting to know the Truth from God or any other agency. only thing which devotees dont accept, is his cross. Okay cross exists; happy. Now spare us with the foolishness of any more NDEs. If you want to discuss something of God's nature, of His glories or how you love Him etc. then you are welcome; but i do not think that your huge mental baggage will allow you to engage sincerely in any such exchanges. Oh talk about the glories of the Lord so that everyone will love it, but by posting such NDEs and your ideas of Buddha (and justifying them) you are only proving some of the harsh statements of other devotees to be correct. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vishnu 0 Report post Posted February 16, 2005 ''What you mean by "not naked"? OBE or NDE means without body outside body, then where does the question of naked or not naked arise -- there is no body where is the question of clothes. It is only the subtle body which is incidently not visible with these eyes else others would be seeing the disembodied person. Okay, i am not speaking anymore on this for it is only giving a semblence of credibility from my side. Just to confuse you, see this http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen045.html No i don't endorse this.'' the subtle body can also be clothed. "Since you know nothing about Him and still have the audacity to formulate some nonsensical ideas, let me tell you that Lord Buddha maintained a "Golden Silence" on the question of Supreme Lord. When someone asked Him about the Supreme Lord He said that stay with me for (something like) three years and then you will understand the answer to this question. You did not even consider for a moment that what will remain of your situation if you are wrong, and Jesus and Buddha turn out to be intimately related and Jesus is angry for saying and thinking such things for Lord Buddha." I do not mean ill and I do not hate Buddha, for all I know you are right. i simply dont know. jesus sees the heart and he knows i simply am confused. I wasnt posting the Buddhist NDE either to show hate for buddha or something. "You sure you know the meaning of ETERNAL -- yes it means ETERNAL; let us see: age of Lord Brahma which is the age of a universe in one cycle is some trillion years, and that is not even a flash in ETERNITY, in fact from the point of ETERNITY it is zero; so ETERNITY is not one trillion years, not 10^100000000000^1000000000000 years; all these are precisely zero in the context of ETERNITY. However large number you can IMAGINE (fill the whole universe with 10000...) is precisely zero when compared to ETERNITY. Good luck with your beliefs. You want to remain in your make believe world, no problems. But if you want to know the Truth then pray to Lord with devotion daily, for two hours or more. Yes and do give up meat-eating, intoxicants if you sincerely want to try this. We must become like Jesus in this lifetime; trust no after-life future however bright some may claim to be; see God in His complete splendour in this very life and learn ALL Truths from Him. " Well I do just that. just yesterday i had a book in my hands with daily devotionals and i asked in my mind as i do often:how long is that hell in the experience of the buddhist man? i opened the book and opened right up on a sentence i did not want to hear cuz it said something like:human life is nothing compared to ETERNITY. that answers the question. "You mock God's infinite nature and potencies by such statements; why on earth will He hurt Himself? Then again you contradict yourself when you said that God can forgive sins and now are saying He suffers for our sins. "Verily i do not mock him, i rather acknowledge his great power and his great love that he is willing to undergo suffering for us. and i hardly contradict. id say its contradicting if God forgives anyone without having actually felt the sin. But a God who feels the sin, and then says:i forgive. that is a true God. He would hurt himself because he loves us, and selfsacrificial Love is the make up of the universe. (oversimplified) not space and time. if God wants sinning souls to be with Him, he has to walk into the darkness which the sins has caused. this is part of the ideas what sprung in my mind when i asked God about hell and salvation. "Your thinking makes no difference to the fact that millions (if not billions) of people do not even come to know of God (either Jesus/Krishna/Allah/...) in their lifetimes because of their being born in such places (like primitive tribal areas etc.). Billions trillions have already died after been born in such areas in the past without having any idea of God nor having gotten even a slightest oportunity to know about Him, so they all went to hell in your consideration. And of course all animals/plants are going to hell anyways, or you believe they have no souls contradicting the Jewish NDE which you so love." Exactly. so like i said:He knows the hearts and he knows Love and judges fair and square. "By saying this you present Jesus in poor light and i strongly contest this. No Jesus never and can never say this. A pure devotee like Jesus knows and sees everyone and everything as part and parcel of God. You say that source of everyone and everything is not God. So now there are two Gods, one God and other a lesser God called devil/satan." well its plain written in the bible. i set jesus not at all in a poor light. of course God created the pharisees, they are children of the deivl because they move themselves away from God with their hypocrisy and disbelief in jesus. and satanis NOT Gods equal!!! Satan was a high angel who rebelled and wanted to be worshipped which was not allowed. he become proud because he was one of the prime angels. God kicked him down at once. "There is no satan; he is only your figment of imagination -- "Satan" only means the tendency to enjoy separately from God i.e. incorrect use of our free-will. God is Omnipotent and He has no competitor even remotely, contrary to what you may want to believe." well we agree. hes not equal to God. "I can understand that you have strong beliefs and questioning them will constitute a grave crisis of faith for you, so you can go to any extent to justify them." i dont wanna do that at all. i want the truth. Godbless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sumedh 0 Report post Posted February 16, 2005 Dear Vishnu Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam This has given me much satisfaction. Just like the Lord is called bhakta-vatsala meaning overly protective of His devotees, similiarly the devotees are very protective of their Lord and oppose any inappropriate words for the Lord. My outburst was with good intentions only, for it appeared to me that you have some conception (as regards Lord Buddha) which could be problematic for yourself; so please forgive me if you were hurt by it. the subtle body can also be clothed. Point is that those clothes are of completely different kind and they will not resemble the clothes the monk was wearing on the earth. When a soul with the subtle body enters the hellish planets (of which there are many and 28 different kinds have been described in the Bhagavatam) it will take on a body appropriate for that hell just like we take a body on earth, and so its clothes cannot be same (or look the same) as those worn on earth.Anyway forget it, it a very minor point. Since you have not placed your faith in this NDE discussing this is futile. i opened the book and opened right up on a sentence i did not want to hear cuz it said something like:human life is nothing compared to ETERNITY. So maybe this only explains what eternity is and not that anyone remains in hell for eternity. Try to think from deep within; for a limited number of sins God cannot punish infinitely; impossible, not even any normal human will do that what to speak of that all-merciful God. So maybe eternity of hell in Bible means only much longer times as compared to earth and not infinite Time. Exactly. so like i said:He knows the hearts and he knows Love and judges fair and square. But how can it be fair if so many humans have not even got a chance to know about Him what to speak of loving Him. If someone does not even know about God what possibility is there of loving Him. Maybe you were a fortunate one who had love for God since birth, but there are many many who do not have, and do not come to know of a Supreme Controller in their lives. Thing is that according to Vedic texts such persons will attain to that species as they have developed their consciousness and not hell (unless they have committed grave sins and even then remain in hell in proportion to their sins). Satan was a high angel who rebelled and wanted to be worshipped which was not allowed. he become proud because he was one of the prime angels. God kicked him down at once. So why did God not put Satan in the hell for eternity (btw where is he now). And how has that satan got so much influence on the humans, that we have to be so careful of the satan. Why did God allow the influence of Satan to spread and did not completely annihilate it. If God cannot remove influence of satan then the conclusion can only be that satan can indeed compete with the Lord in some way by influencing humans more than God. i want the truth. I empathize with you because i have spent so many years for that too (not through internet at that time though). I had read and practised many spiritual practises and philosophies but was only jumping around like a frog. Interesting was the fact that when i inadvertantly looked in internet, KC was the first thing i found and have never jumped since /images/graemlins/smile.gif Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.8.10 Just as the honeybee takes nectar from all flowers, big and small, an intelligent human being should take the essence from all religious scriptures. May i suggest you to read Sri Ishopanishad here:http://www.hare-krishna.org/books/isopanisad.zip It is small, and i think you will like it. You may require to install the fonts (here: http://www.hare-krishna.org/v-fonts.zip) first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vishnu 0 Report post Posted February 16, 2005 ''Dear Vishnu Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam This has given me much satisfaction. Just like the Lord is called bhakta-vatsala meaning overly protective of His devotees, similiarly the devotees are very protective of their Lord and oppose any inappropriate words for the Lord. My outburst was with good intentions only, for it appeared to me that you have some conception (as regards Lord Buddha) which could be problematic for yourself; so please forgive me if you were hurt by it. '' I MERELY HOPED THAT YOU DIDNT SUDDENLY STARTED TO GET AWAY FROM ME, AFTER HAVING SAID YESTERDAY I WAS VERY SINCERE. SO IM ALL THE MORE GLAD NOW /images/graemlins/smile.gif "So maybe this only explains what eternity is and not that anyone remains in hell for eternity. Try to think from deep within; for a limited number of sins God cannot punish infinitely; impossible, not even any normal human will do that what to speak of that all-merciful God. So maybe eternity of hell in Bible means only much longer times as compared to earth and not infinite Time." since i asked for the duration, i think it means eternity when the word i come up with as i opened the book is just that, eternity. that cannot be coincidence. i dont understand all. but you have to know one thing jesus said:you shall be judged by own accord. its very important. you think humans will not do it, but in this day and age, many would for example not give a flying fudge if a child molestor or fornicator would be tormented or imprisoned his entire life. God knows that, and he also knows that from his allmighty perspective, many of these judgemental people are not only just as bad or worse than such child fornicators, but also may have caused some kind of child molesting with their own actions, direct or indirect. It is , as the jewish man in the NDE also experienced, part of themselves which judges them. its their own judgement. and remember my parable of the canyon. In my church , when God speaks thru his prophets in church, he says his heart cries out for the lost. When you say lost, its more like he cant do anything cuz they are too deep in sin, instead of a harsh judging God which has the power to take them to heaven without suffering himself. "But how can it be fair if so many humans have not even got a chance to know about Him what to speak of loving Him. If someone does not even know about God what possibility is there of loving Him. Maybe you were a fortunate one who had love for God since birth, but there are many many who do not have, and do not come to know of a Supreme Controller in their lives. Thing is that according to Vedic texts such persons will attain to that species as they have developed their consciousness and not hell (unless they have committed grave sins and even then remain in hell in proportion to their sins). " as jesus says:this is the law:Serve thy God with all thy everything, and love thy neighbor like thyself. And:what you have done for the least of these mine brethren, you have done for me. god takes simple altruism in his judgement too. i think. "So why did God not put Satan in the hell for eternity (btw where is he now). And how has that satan got so much influence on the humans, that we have to be so careful of the satan. Why did God allow the influence of Satan to spread and did not completely annihilate it. If God cannot remove influence of satan then the conclusion can only be that satan can indeed compete with the Lord in some way by influencing humans more than God." I dont know. He might have a plan with humans on this earth. sorry i begin again about it, but NDE's as well as my memory states that human life is not just any life on a multidimension universe, but how we act here will forever affect us. Maybe he wants this spirit war to make a point, or because its the only way for some things. i dont know his intentions, but satan will fall soon. We will have a great tribulation (in christiannity) in which an antichrist will come and deceive people and make them have a mark in their right hand or forehead-without it you cannot sell or buy. this is thought to be an implantable chip. those that take it will go to hell. after that, jesus will come and satan and his entire horde will be cast down forever. right now satan is in a hell, probably inside earth or so, with power in that place but also power on earth. but not the final hell (lake of fire). This is usual christian belief. " I empathize with you because i have spent so many years for that too (not through internet at that time though). I had read and practised many spiritual practises and philosophies but was only jumping around like a frog. Interesting was the fact that when i inadvertantly looked in internet, KC was the first thing i found and have never jumped since Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.8.10" I try christianity. i know krishna is real and God or son of God as well, but to make it not overly difficult i have to accept i dont know everything and i will one day get all i need in knowledge and be satisfied. the light from the bible and bhagavadgita however, feels exactly the same. the koran on the other hand, and everything islamic, feels rather dark and fearful. "May i suggest you to read Sri Ishopanishad here: http://www.hare-krishna.org/books/isopanisad.zip It is small, and i think you will like it. You may require to install the fonts (here: http://www.hare-krishna.org/v-fonts.zip) first. " wow thats one big load of text. /images/graemlins/smile.gif i cant do that all in this night alone, but thanks /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sumedh 0 Report post Posted February 16, 2005 Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam since i asked for the duration, i think it means eternity when the word i come up with as i opened the book is just that, eternity. that cannot be coincidence. And you should not consider your coming to this forum as a coincidence too. jesus said:you shall be judged by own accord. Precisely, and that is why there is no question of finite sins causing infinite suffering. And only the Vedic position corresponds with this statement correctly; whatever the actions one shall reap the fruits proportionately (good/bad) in heaven/hell and whatever the state of consciousness we develop we shall attain in next lifetime. It is , as the jewish man in the NDE also experienced, part of themselves which judges them. its their own judgement. Judgement means proportionate judgement not infinite punishment for finite wrong-doings. God is our so dear Friend that He has been following us since time immemorial as the SuperSoul fulfilling all our desires, and as soon as we in sincerity turn towards Him, He personally paves our way to Him, though small as we are cannot see this. Depth of sin etc. does not matter since this material world has been designed to ultimately bring us to Him; He has been waiting patiently and patiently in the meantime. It is like a child forgetting his father wanting to play a game with his brothers becomes engrossed in the game maybe getting bruised in the meantime and when he tires of it, remembers the father who takes him without delay. Our vision being very small and limited cannot see this perfect arrangement of the Lord designed to take us to Godhead sooner or later -- this is His special mercy. I will burden you with an online version of Sri Ishopanishad with purports by Srila Siddhaswarupananda. It is smaller, and will be nice to read both and just see how the Spiritual Masters convey the same things in different ways. Actually due to our material vision we start comparing Spiritual Masters as big or small (who is actually a Spiritual Master is another matter though) but they are one and the same. Here: http://www.geocities.com/mahaksadasa/18p.html p.s. which version of Bhagavad-Gita do you have; there are many versions which give incorrect translations/purports trying to impose their own philosophy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vishnu 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2005 Hare Krishna! Have to go soon, ill be quick just go it point by point if thats ok 1.indeed, nothing is coincidence /images/graemlins/smile.gif 2.well for me, it is exactly the good reason for infinite suffering, because people are not God and often people have no compassion and very harsh judgement on others whom they see as evil and they wouldnt care if that person suffered for eternity, let alone if they find out they are MUCH worse people. but i dont know, ill just stay open and see what happens. 3.again, infinite punishment means that we ourselves have judged ourselves that hard. it means we judged others who were like us in life just that hard but wenever realised we were just as evil as they were. if not more evil. Yes, i believe you. hes been doing that all my life /images/graemlins/smile.gif and stioll doing it. I hope your right, but I know:God is just. remind me, i have to go in 5 minutes to work at church. hmm, i dont know. i have 2 books, one is like a big story, and the other is the texts in hindi, dutch, comments, and daily devotional. its written by uhm Mansukh patel and some others /images/graemlins/smile.gif sjalom gotta love ya and gotta go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
