Guest guest Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Hi Everyone: Thank you all for those heart felt welcomes, I get the feeling this is a very special group, don´t know why. I wanted to post a message about enlightenment. Supposedly Kundalini awakening leads to enlightenment which is why I ask myself, why put so much enfasis on Kundalini if enlightenment is the goal? I think the answer might be, as Crism says in his teachings that each individual is an expression of truth, and therefore each individual chooses to express truth however he or she feels it should be expressed. I am in my own process of figuring out things, and one of the conclusions I have come up with is that I have to reject everything I have heard about enlightenment because the only truth to know is that which you come to know by your own experience. I´m finding this statement to be very true and this process of awakening to a higher source is taking away everything I have ever heard, thought, or felt to be true. I feel like writing this message is accelerating the process, don´t know why, but as I write and confide in all of you the energy gets stronger. Anyhow, Is is not that I believe teachings in general are misguided, it is that the teaching itself should point and enable one to experience the truth of oneself. Nonetheless I am trying to understand this process from knowledge point of view, reading about chakras, ect...Is this anyone´s experience? Does any of this makes sense? Thank you. Elio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 hi Elio, yes, I agree with you. reject everything you have heard about enlightenment, and seek to know it from your experience. Your experience is your only wisdom, and its quite a process of dropping everything we have been taught and opening the mind to the truth of higher consciosness... i feel a lot of emphasis is put on kundalini as its one of the pathways to enlightenment, and once awakened, the kundalini will give you experiences to realize for yourself what enlightenment actually means.. (which is no big deal.. haha..) for me, enlightenmentg is the recognition that the happiness and peace and joy I seek is my true nature, to be realized by a continual process of deep relaxation, or seeing and allowing any attachments to any experience to self liberate within the awareness of consciuusness.. and as let go (which is an act of grace), the radiance of my being can shine forth, happiness not being dependant on anything and survival not an issue.. love bruce , " elieits " <elieits wrote: > > Hi Everyone: > > Thank you all for those heart felt welcomes, I get the feeling this is a very special group, > don´t know why. I wanted to post a message about enlightenment. Supposedly Kundalini awakening leads to enlightenment which is why I ask myself, why put so much enfasis on Kundalini if enlightenment is the goal? I think the answer might be, as Crism says in his teachings that each individual is an expression of truth, and therefore each individual chooses to express truth however he or she feels it should be expressed. I am in my own process of figuring out things, and one of the conclusions I have come up with is that I have to reject everything I have heard about enlightenment because the only truth to know is that which you come to know by your own experience. I´m finding this statement to be very true and this process of awakening to a higher source is taking away everything I have ever heard, thought, or felt to be true. I feel like writing this message is accelerating the process, don´t know why, but as I write and confide in all of you the energy gets stronger. Anyhow, Is is not that I believe teachings in general are misguided, it is that the teaching itself should point and enable one to experience the truth of oneself. Nonetheless I am trying to understand this process from knowledge point of view, reading about chakras, ect...Is this anyone´s experience? Does any of this makes sense? > > Thank you. > > Elio > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Elio, There's an old zen story - goes something like this. One monk points up at the beautiful moon and says to the other monk, " Isn't it a beautiful moon? " The other monk says, " That's not the moon - it's a finger pointing at the moon. " (For those who know the story, forgive me for mangling it - it's been a really long time since I read it.) Many of the books we read on spirituality are " fingers pointing at the moon, " not the moon itself, so to speak. Still, the finger pointing at the moon helps you to understand where to look, how to look, and what might occur. You still have to experience the moon for yourself, but as we start to have our own spiritual experiences, reading of others' experiences, instructions, etc. can be helpful. Part of the process we go through involves taming the mind. Or stilling it, or transcending it, or at least getting it algned with our spiritual aspirations. The mind likes knowledge. So there's some amount of " book learning " we all probably do as our minds try to understand that which ultimatley cannot be described. But since the mind operates by thought and reason, some degree of reading may provide satisfaction to the mind, helping it to get on board. Reading about enlightenment is not the end, but I think it is often part of the process. Then there are other writings, written by enlightened folk or people experiencing Kundalini. Reading these, the energy pours into you and transforms your consciousness. You literally feel it - it is beyond words, a visceral experience. It acts as inspiration, initiation, shaktipat, etc. - the direct transmission of Kundalini energy helping to awaken the Goddess within you. As to enlightenment being a goal, I'm coming to understand it more as a process. It goes on forever. The emphasis on Kundalini is because this is the power within us that brings us into the enlightenment process, then takes over and governs the process as well. You mention that writing this message the energy gets stronger. This has probably a twofold cause. One, participating in this group you are energetically connecting with a bunch of K-active people - the energy will come through to you. This is often referred to as " sitepat " , a form of Shaktipat from associating with K-active people (and a K-active teacher who gives Shaktipat) via the web site. Another reason, is as you write about these things, you are turning your attention to the Kundalini within you. Whenever you give Her your attention, She returns the favor by giving you Her loving attention! Love and blessings, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Bruce and David: I find your messages highly valuable to my own experience, just because I feel some acknowledgement from people who understand what I am going through. Thank you all. Elio. , " djgottlieb " <dgottlieb wrote: Elio, > > There's an old zen story - goes something like this. One monk points up at the beautiful moon and says to the other monk, " Isn't it a beautiful moon? " The other monk says, " That's not the moon - it's a finger pointing at the moon. " (For those who know the story, forgive me for mangling it - it's been a really long time since I read it.) > > Many of the books we read on spirituality are " fingers pointing at the moon, " not the moon itself, so to speak. Still, the finger pointing at the moon helps you to understand where to look, how to look, and what might occur. You still have to experience the moon for yourself, but as we start to have our own spiritual experiences, reading of others' experiences, instructions, etc. can be helpful. > > Part of the process we go through involves taming the mind. Or stilling it, or transcending it, or at least getting it algned with our spiritual aspirations. The mind likes knowledge. So there's some amount of " book learning " we all probably do as our minds try to understand that which ultimatley cannot be described. But since the mind operates by thought and reason, some degree of reading may provide satisfaction to the mind, helping it to get on board. Reading about enlightenment is not the end, but I think it is often part of the process. > > Then there are other writings, written by enlightened folk or people experiencing Kundalini. Reading these, the energy pours into you and transforms your consciousness. You literally feel it - it is beyond words, a visceral experience. It acts as inspiration, initiation, shaktipat, etc. - the direct transmission of Kundalini energy helping to awaken the Goddess within you. > > As to enlightenment being a goal, I'm coming to understand it more as a process. It goes on forever. The emphasis on Kundalini is because this is the power within us that brings us into the enlightenment process, then takes over and governs the process as well. > > You mention that writing this message the energy gets stronger. This has probably a twofold cause. One, participating in this group you are energetically connecting with a bunch of K-active people - the energy will come through to you. This is often referred to as " sitepat " , a form of Shaktipat from associating with K-active people (and a K-active teacher who gives Shaktipat) via the web site. Another reason, is as you write about these things, you are turning your attention to the Kundalini within you. Whenever you give Her your attention, She returns the favor by giving you Her loving attention! > > Love and blessings, > > David > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Hi Elio, you are welcome.... and i would like to acknowledge the wisdom in David's post, in that reading and listening to teachers can be a very useful way to orient the mind in the journey and are an important part of the process... love Bruce , " elieits " <elieits wrote: > > Bruce and David: > > I find your messages highly valuable to my own experience, just because I feel some acknowledgement from people who understand what I am going through. > > Thank you all. > > Elio. > > , " djgottlieb " <dgottlieb@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Elio, > > > > There's an old zen story - goes something like this. One monk points up at the beautiful moon and says to the other monk, " Isn't it a beautiful moon? " The other monk says, " That's not the moon - it's a finger pointing at the moon. " (For those who know the story, forgive me for mangling it - it's been a really long time since I read it.) > > > > Many of the books we read on spirituality are " fingers pointing at the moon, " not the moon itself, so to speak. Still, the finger pointing at the moon helps you to understand where to look, how to look, and what might occur. You still have to experience the moon for yourself, but as we start to have our own spiritual experiences, reading of others' experiences, instructions, etc. can be helpful. > > > > Part of the process we go through involves taming the mind. Or stilling it, or transcending it, or at least getting it algned with our spiritual aspirations. The mind likes knowledge. So there's some amount of " book learning " we all probably do as our minds try to understand that which ultimatley cannot be described. But since the mind operates by thought and reason, some degree of reading may provide satisfaction to the mind, helping it to get on board. Reading about enlightenment is not the end, but I think it is often part of the process. > > > > Then there are other writings, written by enlightened folk or people experiencing Kundalini. Reading these, the energy pours into you and transforms your consciousness. You literally feel it - it is beyond words, a visceral experience. It acts as inspiration, initiation, shaktipat, etc. - the direct transmission of Kundalini energy helping to awaken the Goddess within you. > > > > As to enlightenment being a goal, I'm coming to understand it more as a process. It goes on forever. The emphasis on Kundalini is because this is the power within us that brings us into the enlightenment process, then takes over and governs the process as well. > > > > You mention that writing this message the energy gets stronger. This has probably a twofold cause. One, participating in this group you are energetically connecting with a bunch of K-active people - the energy will come through to you. This is often referred to as " sitepat " , a form of Shaktipat from associating with K-active people (and a K-active teacher who gives Shaktipat) via the web site. Another reason, is as you write about these things, you are turning your attention to the Kundalini within you. Whenever you give Her your attention, She returns the favor by giving you Her loving attention! > > > > Love and blessings, > > > > David > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2009 Report Share Posted December 2, 2009 Hi Bruce, What would be other paths to enlightenment other than kundalini? I thought all paths leads to kundalini which, when it is awakened fully, is enlightenment. Are you meaning your expeiences are not big deal or that enlightenment is no big deal? Feeling a little confused. Love, Linda , " BruceO " <bruce_oom wrote: > > i feel a lot of emphasis is put on kundalini as its one of the pathways to enlightenment, and once awakened, the kundalini will give you experiences to realize for yourself what enlightenment actually means.. (which is no big deal.. haha..) > > love > bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2009 Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Hi Linda well, confusion leads to great doubt which is the way of the enlightened mind so welcome the confusion, because one of the hallmarks of enlightenment, as I understand it, is the radical realization that nothing, not even understanding, can be held onto. In buddhist teachings, the highest teachings are the Dzogchen meditations, which simply say 'Pay attention to what is arising. Rest in what is arising' To rest in the moving world of form, one has to be fundamentally free of it. What do you mean by enlightenment? What is your understanding of it? My understanding of enlightenment is the realization that there is nothing I can do, nowhere I can go to be ok, so relax happens to me. When I say enlightenment is no big deal, what I mean is that even the notion that enlightenment is something to be had, something special to be gained, some wonderful mystical state to be entered into, has to be dropped. When enlightenment is seen to be the most natural, ordinary state of your everyday mind, containing all the peace and freedom that you ever wanted, and its what you are before you do anything, then thats when you get it. We have enlightened nature before Kundalini awakes, as our everpresent awareness. From my experience, Kundalini is not needed to realize this, yet Kundalini helps to realize this and helps to stabilize this awareness. Who were you before you started this search for God? Who were you when you were 5 years old? Its the same 'you' looking out at the world. The scenery has changed yet the seer stays the same. You are the seer, not the scenery. As long as you want to get enlightened you will fail. (yet trying to stop wanting it is impossible... and thats the problem). YOu will need to see the perfection of this moment before you try and change it. Yet, if we confuse enlightenment with phenomena, like that which the kundalini brings, then yes, kundalini is very helpful in bringing forth 'enlightened' phenomena and turning this body into a vessel for Christ consciousness. Christ said 'I and the Father are one'. What he meant is that he had realized his fundamental identity with God, which is the fundamental identity we all have. So, my definition of enlightenment is not phenomological; rather, its the recognition of one true identity, which is the ground of all phenomena, and this can occur without kundalini.. imho... again, these are just my opinions. I would love to hear what you understand enlightenment to be, and also what thinks... love Bruce , " danceswithcats999 " <crazycats711 wrote: > > Hi Bruce, > What would be other paths to enlightenment other than kundalini? I thought all paths leads to kundalini which, when it is awakened fully, is enlightenment. Are you meaning your expeiences are not big deal or that enlightenment is no big deal? > Feeling a little confused. > > Love, > Linda > > , " BruceO " <bruce_oom@> wrote: > > > > > i feel a lot of emphasis is put on kundalini as its one of the pathways to enlightenment, and once awakened, the kundalini will give you experiences to realize for yourself what enlightenment actually means.. (which is no big deal.. haha..) > > > > > love > > bruce > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Hi Bruce, the following is my take. LOL! Sorry, it took so long to reply. I did not think in terms of the word enlightenment until coming here to this group and prior to that the OBE groups. I am seeing enlightenement as stages/levels of transformation that we are being taken through. I did not see the suffering and trials we go through as a purifying agent, but more like friction that causes our spiritual muscles to grow, faith to increase. I guess these too are just different labels for the same proscess. I believed and still do that it is the blood of Jesus Christ (his sacrifice of himself) which purifies a person, a gift of forgiveness given when one turns from living only for one's self and submits themselves (flaws and all) to be lead/guided by Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit. (Shiva and Shakti for the Hindu faith) I do not believe a person can eliminate their own karma (sin) in their own strength/ power, thus the need for the creation of a mediator/savior/atonement because the Creator could not go against his/her own law. When I first began as a christian, I knew nothing of the Holy Spirit, so I submitted myself to Jesus's teachings/intructions only. I daily laid my ego self (the old man/sinful self in christian terms) at the foot of the cross in submission and followed the spiritual teachings of the bible to the best of my ability. Of course I failed many times. This was the first level. Then as I read and studied the bible I learned of the Holy Spirit and began desiring for this baptism so I could have power to do more selfless service for others as I desired more and more to give back. It was my growing love for Christ Jesus and what he had done for me that gave me the desire to push on and do these services for others. After recieving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was filled with so much joy, peace, and love and other gifts that it was easy doing the services for others. The more I gave, the more joy, peace and love I recieved. That was the second level for me and I really loved that level. I could have stayed there forever. But there came a time for more growing of the faith to occur or transformation to come about. It seemed the Holy Spirit pull back and I was given trials and sickness to overcome. My securities, comforts were taken, one by one. It wasn't fun and joy any more. Here I was, suppose to be an overcomer in Christ Jesus and I was struggling with things, (life happenings) more so than before I was a christian. I felt like a hypocrite being around my christian friends or anyone for that matter. My christian friends would shoot me down with one gospel bullit after the other. I know they were just trying to be helpful, but it hurt. These were verses..meanings I had known for years and were not helping me no matter how many times I quoted them and prayed. I missed what I once had, but was somewhat glad in a way that my church family fell apart and I could just walk away from them all. Didn't get to walk away from the trials and sufferings though, but was able to suffer in peace. LOL! I threw myself into becoming a workaholic for material gain and grew sicker in body until I was no longer functioning so well. I quit asking God for healing and took the healing of myself into my own hands and began experiementing with all sorts of healing remedies, which lead me to meditation and then to Kundalini being activated. I felt cursed and a huge failure, but my love for Jesus did not lessen. He was there for me when I was taken through all that beginning K phenomena, which I took to be one curse after the other at the time. After the experience with my daughter and husband I was changed once more and I relate to the outside world in a different way now. I take it as another level I intered into. The K phenomena continued, but I was handling it a little better. By the time I arrived here on KAS1 I had the feeling of just dangling out there, with not knowing where/what I should be doing. My desire for having OBE dwindled down to nothing, as well as other desires. I had by that time learned a little about kundalini from that gnostic course I took. They told me that what I was experiencing was not kundalini, but something else since women did not have kundalini activations. From what I read other places on the net, I felt I did have many Kundalini symptoms, but didn't know what to believe about it all. From what I understand about the bible we are to eventually evolve to have immortal physical bodies that no longer suffer from diseases. Our last enemy is to conquer death just as Jesus' last enemy to conquer was death. The only bodies we have that experience death right now is our physical and astral bodies. The soul and spirit are already immortal. The way I see it we are still in the sixth day of the Creators creating of us. We are still on the potters wheel being refined. I do see that we are one with Christ Jesus and one with God, but that does no mean we are going to stop being our individual soul beings. We function as one body, but stay individuals is the way I see it. I have not given a lot of thought to the word enlightenment, but have been meditating on it just about all day yesterday and is the reason I did not replied to you post until now. The word light is what God is in the same sense that love is what God is. All that is not light and love is the anti or that which is the illusion. In christian terms, light equals perfection. I visualized the Creator spininng us on his potter's wheel with unconditional love and as we grow stronger, more light is added evolving us into perfected god beings. I know chrism says there is no end to the process, but the bible says at the end of the sixth day, when creation is completed, the seveth day begans which is when God enters into his eternal rest and we are to enter in with him. Cycles are there until there is a time of completion. Then the cycle ends, that is how cycles are in nature, right? So I guess, I would see enlightenment as the levels/stages we go through on the way to becoming perfected beings, but not the end results. If Kundalini and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, which I have come to believe is truth, how could the enlightenment process take place without the involvement of the God of Light and Love and Life. Some stages may seem like the Holy Spirit/Kundalini is not involved, but how could it not be when it is that light and love of God/Divine that is doing working in us. I do not understand the nothingness concept that is spoken of, except to me, it would mean one did not make it as an individual being and the spirit spark is returned to the Creator God and that one's soul experiences the second death (spoken of in the bible) and is no more. Non-duality to me is knowing that all that is reality is the light,love,life and all that is anti these are the illusion. I just see the phenomena as just stuff along the path that we do not have an understanding of the meaning yet. I guess it could be part of the anti/illusion or not. LOL! My knowledge is so miniscule, you could say I know nothing. Hehe! Some day the veil will be lifted is what we are told and we will know longer be seeing through the glass darkly, until then, we can all have our opinions from what we percieve. Love, Linda , " BruceO " <bruce_oom wrote: > > Hi Linda What do you mean by enlightenment? What is your understanding of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Nothingness ??? Many of us have different view points on this. This is an interesting subject to discuss. My concept of this word has changed over the course of my life many times and has come to view nothingness as The Void. Why I've come to this belief is because of a 3 AM kundalini insight a few years ago. One evening I slipped off to deep sleep mode and during this sleep I went exploring into the Astral as best as I can describe it. All I could see was the stars and the darkness (blackness) surrounding me and everything. By the way... I could not even see me...I just knew my presence was there. Not a soul in sight but my mind was somehow receiving messages and information from a higher source. I did not feel alone in this vast empty place even though I could not see another being. I was just the observer...with no thought, opinion, or whatever. I really do not think I can pull the words out to describe this experience to its fullest. I can describe the emotions and feelings I had though. I was in awe...a realization...of ONE. That all things come together as ONE. Then of course there was FEAR...this is what jolted me back into my body. Upon waking I knew I had experienced a new revelation. I also knew I had to let go of any fear based BS. Nothingness...is when you think you know something and you find out you know nothing. A deeper part of me says this is not a word we can just understand by reading its meaning but rather by experiencing its phenomena. Nothingness is so ALONE...I do not want to travel this lifetime or any other lifetime alone. My 1/2 cents worth. Much love and light to all. Namaste', Denny ________________________________ danceswithcats999 <crazycats711 I do not understand the nothingness concept that is spoken of, except to me, it would mean one did not make it as an individual being and the spirit spark is returned to the Creator God and that one's soul experiences the second death (spoken of in the bible) and is no more. Non-duality to me is knowing that all that is reality is the light,love,life and all that is anti these are the illusion. I just see the phenomena as just stuff along the path that we do not have an understanding of the meaning yet. I guess it could be part of the anti/illusion or not. LOL! My knowledge is so miniscule, you could say I know nothing. Hehe! Some day the veil will be lifted is what we are told and we will know longer be seeing through the glass darkly, until then, we can all have our opinions from what we percieve. Love, Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Hi Linda, thanks for writing this, and in many ways I feel aligned with what you are saying and have great respect for it My knowledge is also minuscule and i too look forward to deeper understanding one day.. we can chat about it in heaven love Bruce , " danceswithcats999 " <crazycats711 wrote: > > Hi Bruce, the following is my take. LOL! Sorry, it took so long to reply. > > I did not think in terms of the word enlightenment until coming here to this group and prior to that the OBE groups. I am seeing enlightenement as stages/levels of transformation that we are > being taken through. I did not see the suffering and trials we go through as a purifying agent, but more like friction that causes our spiritual muscles to grow, faith to increase. I guess these too > are just different labels for the same proscess. > > I believed and still do that it is the blood of Jesus Christ (his sacrifice of himself) which purifies a person, a gift of forgiveness given when one turns from living only for one's self and submits > themselves (flaws and all) to be lead/guided by Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit. (Shiva and Shakti for the Hindu faith) I do not believe a person can eliminate their own karma (sin) in their own strength/ power, thus the need for the creation of a mediator/savior/atonement because the Creator could not go against his/her own law. > > When I first began as a christian, I knew nothing of the Holy Spirit, so I submitted myself to Jesus's teachings/intructions only. I daily laid my ego self (the old man/sinful self in christian terms) at the foot of the cross in submission and followed the spiritual teachings of the bible to the best of my ability. Of course I failed many times. This was the first level. Then as I read and studied the bible I learned of the Holy Spirit and began desiring for this baptism so I could have power to do more selfless service for others as I desired more and more to give back. It was my growing love for Christ Jesus and what he had done for me that gave me the desire to push on and do these services for others. After recieving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was filled with so much joy, peace, and love and other gifts that it was easy doing the services for others. The more I gave, the more joy, peace and love I recieved. That was the second level for me and I really loved that level. I could have stayed there forever. But there came a time for more growing of the faith to occur or transformation to come about. > > It seemed the Holy Spirit pull back and I was given trials and sickness to overcome. My securities, comforts were taken, one by one. It wasn't fun and joy any more. Here I was, suppose to be an overcomer in Christ Jesus and I was struggling with things, (life happenings) more so than before I was a christian. I felt like a hypocrite being around my christian friends or anyone for that matter. My christian friends would shoot me down with one gospel bullit after the other. I know they were just trying to be helpful, but it hurt. These were verses..meanings I had known for years and were not helping me no matter how many times I quoted them and prayed. I missed what I once had, but was somewhat glad in a way that my church family fell apart and I could just walk away from them all. Didn't get to walk away from the trials and sufferings though, but was able to suffer in peace. LOL! I threw myself into becoming a workaholic for material gain and grew sicker in body until I was no longer functioning so well. I quit asking God for healing and took the healing of myself into my own hands and began experiementing with all sorts of healing remedies, which lead me to meditation and then to Kundalini being activated. I felt cursed and a huge failure, but my love for Jesus did not lessen. He was there for me when I was taken through all that beginning K phenomena, which I took to be one curse after the other at the time. > > After the experience with my daughter and husband I was changed once more and I relate to the outside world in a different way now. I take it as another level I intered into. The K phenomena continued, but I was handling it a little better. By the time I arrived here on KAS1 I had the feeling of just dangling out there, with not knowing where/what I should be doing. My desire for having OBE dwindled down to nothing, as well as other desires. I had by that time learned a little about kundalini from that gnostic course I took. They told me that what I was experiencing was not kundalini, but something else since women did not have kundalini activations. From what I read other places on the net, I felt I did have many Kundalini symptoms, but didn't know what to believe about it all. > > From what I understand about the bible we are to eventually evolve to have immortal physical bodies that no longer suffer from diseases. Our last enemy is to conquer death just as Jesus' last enemy to conquer was death. The only bodies we have that experience death right now is our physical and astral bodies. The soul and spirit are already immortal. The way I see it we are still in the sixth day of the Creators creating of us. We are still on the potters wheel being refined. I do see that we are one with Christ Jesus and one with God, but that does no mean we are going to stop being our individual soul beings. We function as one body, but stay individuals is the way I see it. > > I have not given a lot of thought to the word enlightenment, but have been meditating on it just about all day yesterday and is the reason I did not replied to you post until now. The word light is what God is in the same sense that love is what God is. All that is not light and love is the anti or that which is the illusion. In christian terms, light equals perfection. I visualized the Creator spininng us on his potter's wheel with unconditional love and as we grow stronger, more light is added evolving us into perfected god beings. > > I know chrism says there is no end to the process, but the bible says at the end of the sixth day, when creation is completed, the seveth day begans which is when God enters into his eternal rest and we are to enter in with him. Cycles are there until there is a time of completion. Then the cycle ends, that is how cycles are in nature, right? > > So I guess, I would see enlightenment as the levels/stages we go through on the way to becoming perfected beings, but not the end results. If Kundalini and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, which I have come to believe is truth, how could the enlightenment process take place without the involvement of the God of Light and Love and Life. Some stages may seem like the Holy Spirit/Kundalini is not involved, but how could it not be when it is that light and love of God/Divine that is doing working in us. > > I do not understand the nothingness concept that is spoken of, except to me, it would mean one did not make it as an individual being and the spirit spark is returned to the Creator God and that one's soul experiences the second death (spoken of in the bible) and is no more. Non-duality to me is knowing that all that is reality is the light,love,life and all that is anti these are the illusion. > > I just see the phenomena as just stuff along the path that we do not have an understanding of the meaning yet. I guess it could be part of the anti/illusion or not. LOL! My knowledge is so miniscule, you could say I know nothing. Hehe! Some day the veil will be lifted is what we are told and we will know longer be seeing through the glass darkly, until then, we can all have our opinions from what we percieve. > > Love, > Linda > > > , " BruceO " <bruce_oom@> wrote: > > > > Hi Linda > > What do you mean by enlightenment? What is your understanding of it? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Thanks for your explanation of " Nothingness " , Denny. I have read several accounts of people experiencing the astral void that way. I have experienced being in complete darkness for a second or two while out of body and I have been to the edge of the void looking in a couple of times. I have no desire to go there and experience that. I have often wondered if it is a dark hole that is being experienced. The astral realm is a mirror image of the physical or vice versa so that would be a reasonable explanation to me. From an article on black holes I read some time ago, it left me thinking that maybe black holes are the universe's recycling centers. Hehe! Love, Linda , Denny <dennynorton wrote: > > Nothingness ??? Many of us have different view points on this. This is an interesting subject to discuss. My concept of this word has changed over the course of my life many times and has come to view nothingness as The Void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Hehe! I am not so sure if there would be a need to chat about it then. Love, Linda , " BruceO " <bruce_oom wrote: > > Hi Linda, > > we can chat about it in heaven > > love > Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Dear Denny, I once had a dream experience of 'nothingness'. In the dream I was in a white stone building, and there was a row of machinery. There was a warning sound coming from one of the machines. Everyone left in fear and panic, and I went closer to the machine. I felt that I could not leave without trying to stop the machine. It had great destructive power. White smoke was pouring out of the top of the machine, and the dial was in the red warning zone. I wanted to turn the dial back, and I reached out to turn the dial. I couldn't reach it in time, and the machine exploded and I felt incredible heat. For an instant there was the terrible heat and terrible pain, just for a second. I died; my body exploded. I was still aware though I had no physical body. Everything was blinding white and there were no shapes and no people in this whiteness. I was looking for people, but there was no form. The instant of death after the fear felt like flowing, melting, and being released. After some time of just waiting in the whiteness, I felt I was moving fast in a tunnel, and I was looking to the right and seeing things on the earth pass by. It seemed like I was looking at many different landscapes. I was moving in some kind of parallel. I don't understand the experience that I had but it resonated for me with your post. Though we do not have bodies after physical death our awareness is released and greatly expanded. The 'nothingness' refers to the loss of the boundaries placed on the awareness by the physical self, possibly. Love, Sandra ' Why I've come to this belief is because of a 3 AM kundalini insight a few years ago. One evening I slipped off to deep sleep mode and during this sleep I went exploring into the Astral as best as I can describe it. All I could see was the stars and the darkness (blackness) surrounding me and everything. By the way... I could not even see me...I just knew my presence was there. Not a soul in sight but my mind was somehow receiving messages and information from a higher source. I did not feel alone in this vast empty place even though I could not see another being. I was just the observer...with no thought, opinion, or whatever. I really do not think I can pull the words out to describe this experience to its fullest. I can describe > the emotions and feelings I had though. I was in awe...a realization...of ONE. That all things come together as ONE. Then of course there was FEAR...this is what jolted me back into my body. Upon waking I knew I had experienced a new revelation. I also knew I had to let go of any fear based BS. Nothingness...is when you think you know something and you find out you know nothing. A deeper part of me says this is not a word we can just understand by reading its meaning but rather by experiencing its phenomena. Nothingness is so ALONE...I do not want to travel this lifetime or any other lifetime alone.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Dear Bruce and Linda, Thanks for your very interesting posts. Love, Sandra , " BruceO " <bruce_oom wrote: > > Hi Linda, > > thanks for writing this, and in many ways I feel aligned with what you are saying and have great respect for it My knowledge is also minuscule and i too look forward to deeper understanding one day.. > > we can chat about it in heaven > > love > Bruce > > , " danceswithcats999 " <crazycats711@> wrote: > > > > Hi Bruce, the following is my take. LOL! Sorry, it took so long to reply. > > > > I did not think in terms of the word enlightenment until coming here to this group and prior to that the OBE groups. I am seeing enlightenement as stages/levels of transformation that we are > > being taken through. I did not see the suffering and trials we go through as a purifying agent, but more like friction that causes our spiritual muscles to grow, faith to increase. I guess these too > > are just different labels for the same proscess. > > > > I believed and still do that it is the blood of Jesus Christ (his sacrifice of himself) which purifies a person, a gift of forgiveness given when one turns from living only for one's self and submits > > themselves (flaws and all) to be lead/guided by Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit. (Shiva and Shakti for the Hindu faith) I do not believe a person can eliminate their own karma (sin) in their own strength/ power, thus the need for the creation of a mediator/savior/atonement because the Creator could not go against his/her own law. > > > > When I first began as a christian, I knew nothing of the Holy Spirit, so I submitted myself to Jesus's teachings/intructions only. I daily laid my ego self (the old man/sinful self in christian terms) at the foot of the cross in submission and followed the spiritual teachings of the bible to the best of my ability. Of course I failed many times. This was the first level. Then as I read and studied the bible I learned of the Holy Spirit and began desiring for this baptism so I could have power to do more selfless service for others as I desired more and more to give back. It was my growing love for Christ Jesus and what he had done for me that gave me the desire to push on and do these services for others. After recieving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was filled with so much joy, peace, and love and other gifts that it was easy doing the services for others. The more I gave, the more joy, peace and love I recieved. That was the second level for me and I really loved that level. I could have stayed there forever. But there came a time for more growing of the faith to occur or transformation to come about. > > > > It seemed the Holy Spirit pull back and I was given trials and sickness to overcome. My securities, comforts were taken, one by one. It wasn't fun and joy any more. Here I was, suppose to be an overcomer in Christ Jesus and I was struggling with things, (life happenings) more so than before I was a christian. I felt like a hypocrite being around my christian friends or anyone for that matter. My christian friends would shoot me down with one gospel bullit after the other. I know they were just trying to be helpful, but it hurt. These were verses..meanings I had known for years and were not helping me no matter how many times I quoted them and prayed. I missed what I once had, but was somewhat glad in a way that my church family fell apart and I could just walk away from them all. Didn't get to walk away from the trials and sufferings though, but was able to suffer in peace. LOL! I threw myself into becoming a workaholic for material gain and grew sicker in body until I was no longer functioning so well. I quit asking God for healing and took the healing of myself into my own hands and began experiementing with all sorts of healing remedies, which lead me to meditation and then to Kundalini being activated. I felt cursed and a huge failure, but my love for Jesus did not lessen. He was there for me when I was taken through all that beginning K phenomena, which I took to be one curse after the other at the time. > > > > After the experience with my daughter and husband I was changed once more and I relate to the outside world in a different way now. I take it as another level I intered into. The K phenomena continued, but I was handling it a little better. By the time I arrived here on KAS1 I had the feeling of just dangling out there, with not knowing where/what I should be doing. My desire for having OBE dwindled down to nothing, as well as other desires. I had by that time learned a little about kundalini from that gnostic course I took. They told me that what I was experiencing was not kundalini, but something else since women did not have kundalini activations. From what I read other places on the net, I felt I did have many Kundalini symptoms, but didn't know what to believe about it all. > > > > From what I understand about the bible we are to eventually evolve to have immortal physical bodies that no longer suffer from diseases. Our last enemy is to conquer death just as Jesus' last enemy to conquer was death. The only bodies we have that experience death right now is our physical and astral bodies. The soul and spirit are already immortal. The way I see it we are still in the sixth day of the Creators creating of us. We are still on the potters wheel being refined. I do see that we are one with Christ Jesus and one with God, but that does no mean we are going to stop being our individual soul beings. We function as one body, but stay individuals is the way I see it. > > > > I have not given a lot of thought to the word enlightenment, but have been meditating on it just about all day yesterday and is the reason I did not replied to you post until now. The word light is what God is in the same sense that love is what God is. All that is not light and love is the anti or that which is the illusion. In christian terms, light equals perfection. I visualized the Creator spininng us on his potter's wheel with unconditional love and as we grow stronger, more light is added evolving us into perfected god beings. > > > > I know chrism says there is no end to the process, but the bible says at the end of the sixth day, when creation is completed, the seveth day begans which is when God enters into his eternal rest and we are to enter in with him. Cycles are there until there is a time of completion. Then the cycle ends, that is how cycles are in nature, right? > > > > So I guess, I would see enlightenment as the levels/stages we go through on the way to becoming perfected beings, but not the end results. If Kundalini and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, which I have come to believe is truth, how could the enlightenment process take place without the involvement of the God of Light and Love and Life. Some stages may seem like the Holy Spirit/Kundalini is not involved, but how could it not be when it is that light and love of God/Divine that is doing working in us. > > > > I do not understand the nothingness concept that is spoken of, except to me, it would mean one did not make it as an individual being and the spirit spark is returned to the Creator God and that one's soul experiences the second death (spoken of in the bible) and is no more. Non-duality to me is knowing that all that is reality is the light,love,life and all that is anti these are the illusion. > > > > I just see the phenomena as just stuff along the path that we do not have an understanding of the meaning yet. I guess it could be part of the anti/illusion or not. LOL! My knowledge is so miniscule, you could say I know nothing. Hehe! Some day the veil will be lifted is what we are told and we will know longer be seeing through the glass darkly, until then, we can all have our opinions from what we percieve. > > > > Love, > > Linda > > > > > > , " BruceO " <bruce_oom@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Linda > > > > What do you mean by enlightenment? What is your understanding of it? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 chrism gave us the mantra " I am one with the all that I am " . The depth in that mantra is profound. In comprehending who and what we really are and that all aspects of our being are integrated into a cohesive `unit', and that `unit' in turn comprises a part of the whole or that which is divine, duality disappears. On moving beyond duality and in the light of that integration into that whole, the true meaning of unconditional love becomes fully apparent. Forgiveness becomes a `given' when unconditional love is comprehended as you cannot not forgive that which you are part of. The actions of the physical aspect of some and indeed our, at some time, own ego-driven actions may well be `wrong', but in the light of that unconditional love the lessons become clear. Once we are at that point of comprehension our egos should be well under control but that again is part of the progression. The `plot' then becomes simpler but also more complex – but sometimes the obvious is not so obvious. We practice the safeties daily where we focus on trust, surrender, gratitude, forgiveness, love, honesty, inner joy, prayer, meditation and the Tibetans. The Tibetans open and balance the energies within our system and that impacts directly on our physical state. From many posts on the forum, aspects of the practice prove a challenge often due to prior or current life experiences. Stand back for one moment as the quintessimal observer and, if you are one of those who struggles with an aspect of the practice, re-examine your take on duality and review all again in that light of non-duality. Then not only are unconditional love and forgiveness givens, but so too are the remaining aspects of our practice. Initially we battle to surrender because we cannot fully conceive that to which we are surrendering. With our limited mental ability we will never fully conceive that divine whole in that regard. That battle is duality related – perceiving things from the physical. But part of us is already `operating' and interacting on the higher non-physical or `integrated into the whole' level! Accepting that we are `already' there but cannot fully conceive it, surrender too becomes a given. For our minds it requires faith to accept that which is bigger than us, and beyond our limited minds it is not an issue as the integration is there! Maybe then you say how can honesty, gratitude, inner joy be givens? Again as part of the divine whole and already existing on all levels (but maybe not always consciously), if we fully comprehend that integration, then any act of disservice damages the whole and therefore ourselves. Dishonesty tears at the fabric of our physical being; being ungrateful for the lessons taught (many harsh and painful) hides us from the truth of our existence and reintroduces duality with all its limitations. Inner joy `unfolds' with the greater comprehension of our true and full being as our physical minds accept that integrated state. In our progression we thus move progressively towards a state of complete and ongoing honesty in all we do accompanied also by that ongoing gratitude and inner joy. Our behaviour in the physical changes significantly. Where in the past we may well have brooded on being wronged in one way or another, we now see things from the positive perspective – the lesson was pre-planned, we experienced, we learned (or maybe are still learning in respect of a particular past lesson), we are grateful for the `complicity' of others in teaching us that which we needed to learn, and we achieve that contentment or inner joy in knowing that we are advancing on our true path. I believe that the steps in transitioning from a position of being ego-driven to that of conscious integration with our total being for want of a better description is that process of enlightenment. The process never ends but the `givens' as above become the only way of life for us. As we progress we do realise that we are being given access to that divine knowledge but only in a drip-feed manner in accordance with how fast we do change and how able and receptive we are to receive that knowledge. In our case we choose to effect that change by following the kundalini path. Blessings - Jonathan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2009 Report Share Posted December 5, 2009 Hi Jonathon, thanks for this, I enjoyed reading your (as always) insightful posts. (There must be something in the mielie miel in Zimbabwe ) love bruce > I believe that the steps in transitioning from a position of being ego-driven to that of conscious integration with our total being for want of a better description is that process of enlightenment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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