Guest guest Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Venugopal AK <akvenugopal@ ...> wrote: > > Purely with a motive to help you i provided two links. I write from > India, where Kundalini is a ten thousand year old tradition. I realize that the above statement may simply be a declaration of a personal religious conviction. However, so far as I am aware, there is no textual or archeological evidence that would support the existence of kundalini yoga prior to about the mid-first millennium (500-700 CE) which is obviously about 8500 years later than what was mentioned. Nonetheless, kundalini itself has been with mankind since the beginning, so I am open-minded about a greater antiquity. I would greatly appreciate it if anyone could point me towards any textual or archeological evidence of a greater age for the tradition Warm regards, Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Well I wont say it is ten thousand years old but far older and I agree with you about Kundalini(the energy) being here from the beginning. The Rig Veda is one of the older documents to have survived the ages. It is written for Kundalini active people to read. Not those who havent reached the point of K activity ( my humble opinion) It is a very poetical instruction and guidance into the understanding of the Kundalini and follows in its script the symptoms of the Kundalini.I.E. Even in its poetry (which is Kundalini based) it is expressing the love for Kundalini and the love of source etc. Its a great read to " feel " . - blessings Ryan - chrism PS I do not see where Venugopal mentioned " Yoga " blessings and lol. Kundalini-Awakening-Systems- 1 , " thecontemplative " <thecontemplative wrote: I would greatly appreciate it if anyone could point me towards any > textual or archeological evidence of a greater age for the tradition > > Warm regards, > Ryan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Hi Chrism > [the Rg-Veda is a] great read to " feel " . - blessings Ryan - chrism I've read two translations of the Rg-Veda (years ago) and honestly don't recall anything that seemed like an allusion to kundalini (or the symptomology of kundalini activation). It did strike me as pointing in the same direction as Indic spirituality in general. I can easily see how one could infer that passages refer to the higher realms of Indic spirituality. I believe that these " higher realms " are the same irregardless of whether a particular tradition employs a spiritual/contemplative technology that works deliberately with Kundalini. So, to that extent I agree. Nevertheless, I see nothing that appears to be kundalini specific in the same way that the " Yoga Upanishads " , the literature of the Natha Sampradaya, Kashmir Saivism, or Tantric Buddhism is clearly specific to kundalini. I'm not sure if I am expressing myself clearly, but I'm doing my best. What I'm trying to say is that Indic sadhanas in general are aiming at the same ultimate goal but not all Indic traditions use the same methods. Some clearly work with kundalini in a deliberate way and others don't. From the evidence I've seen to date, I'd tend to feel that the early Vedic tradition is one the doesn't. Could you perhaps give an example or two of what you feel are kundalini specific references in the Rg-Veda? > PS I do not see where Venugopal mentioned " Yoga " blessings and lol. You are quite correct that he didn't use the term " yoga " . However, I'm very uncertain about what the referent could be if the kundalini " tradition " he referred to is not something that could be labeled yogic. I'm not being deliberately obtuse; I honestly have no idea what non-yogic content the kundalini tradition could actually have... Warm wishes, Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Hi Chrism > [the Rg-Veda is a] great read to " feel " . - blessings Ryan - chrism I've read two translations of the Rg-Veda (years ago) and honestly don't recall anything that seemed like an allusion to kundalini (or the symptomology of kundalini activation). It did strike me as pointing in the same direction as Indic spirituality in general. I can easily see how one could infer that passages refer to the higher realms of Indic spirituality. I believe that these " higher realms " are the same irregardless of whether a particular tradition employs a spiritual/contemplative technology that works deliberately with Kundalini. So, to that extent I agree. Nevertheless, I see nothing that appears to be kundalini specific in the same way that the " Yoga Upanishads " , the literature of the Natha Sampradaya, Kashmir Saivism, or Tantric Buddhism is clearly specific to kundalini. I'm not sure if I am expressing myself clearly, but I'm doing my best. What I'm trying to say is that Indic sadhanas in general are aiming at the same ultimate goal but not all Indic traditions use the same methods. Some clearly work with kundalini in a deliberate way and others don't. From the evidence I've seen to date, I'd tend to feel that the early Vedic tradition is one the doesn't. Could you perhaps give an example or two of what you feel are kundalini specific references in the Rg-Veda? > PS I do not see where Venugopal mentioned " Yoga " blessings and lol. You are quite correct that he didn't use the term " yoga " . However, I'm very uncertain about what the referent could be if the kundalini " tradition " he referred to is not something that could be labeled yogic. I'm not being deliberately obtuse; I honestly have no idea what non-yogic content the kundalini tradition could actually have... Warm wishes, Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Dear chrism and Ryan, According to some Indian Scholars, the Kundalini tradition is at least ten thousand years old. Right now i am unable to provide a reference but i am confident to do so with in a short time. This is what i have read in a book and presently unable to trace. People in ancient India, like people every where else, asked such questions as " Who am I ? " , " What is the purpose of life ? " , " Is there God ? " , " Why the world exists ? " etc. Some of these people left the centers of civilisations and went into deep forests or lonely valleys (like the Himalayas) and devoted their whole life in search of Self-realisation or God realisation. This went on generation after generation and the culture called Rishi Sanskrithi was developed. All the Vedas, Upanishads, Yoga, Kundalini, Pranayama etc. are the product of the " Rishi Sanskrithi " . Some Indian scholars are of the opinion that this culture is atleast 10,000 years old. But the western scholars do not agree with this and give some thing like 3000 to 4000 years antiquity. Even today there are thousands of Ashrams spread through out India which is devoted to the Rishi Sanskrithi and follow a desciplined life striving for Self-realisation. As an aside i will mention here that the western scholars were of the opinion, till a few years back, that human life appeared on earth some 500,000 years back. About two years back they refined this to say one million years back. Presently the scholars/scientists say that human life appeared some 10 million years back, on earth. I am sure this will further be refined as more scientific evdence is unearthed. All this details are available on the net. Some scholars say that the Yoga and Kundalini traditions were transmitted by spoken word, since there was no written language for thousands of years. They say that it was Pathanjali Maharishi who wrote down first the " Yoga Sutras " . I have read this book and there is no mention of either Kundalini or Chakras in this book. Hundreds of ancient books are available on Yoga and Kundalini in India. Even today some households keep palm leaf books about Kumndalini, which is kept as a private property, not accessible to out siders. The Nath tradition you mentioned is relatively recent development where in Gorakhnath took Kundalini yoga to Tibet. It is also a belief in India that Maha Yogi Babaji is alive for the last 2000 years !! There are Asrams devoted to him. His desciples desciple is Paramahamsa Yogananda. In his book, 'Autobiography of a yogi' he do write about Babaji. I would like to write a little more on this subject later. With regards Venugopal Bombay India --- thecontemplative <thecontemplative wrote: > --- In > , > " chrism " > <> wrote: > > > > great read to " feel " . - blessings Ryan - chrism > > > > I've read two translations of the Rg-Veda (years > ago) and honestly > don't recall anything that seemed like an allusion > to kundalini (or > the symptomology of kundalini activation). It did > strike me as > pointing in the same direction as Indic spirituality > in general. I > can easily see how one could infer that passages > refer to the higher > realms of Indic spirituality. I believe that these > " higher realms " > are the same irregardless of whether a particular > tradition employs a > spiritual/contemplative technology that works > deliberately with > Kundalini. > > So to that extent I agree. > > Nevertheless, I see nothing that appears to be > kundalini specific in > the same way that the " Yoga Upanihads " , the > literature of the Natha > Sampradaya, Kashmir Saivism, or tantric Buddhism is > clearly specific > to kundalini. I'm not sure if I am expressing myself > clearly, but I'm > doing my best. > > What I'm trying to say is that Indic sadhanas in > general are aiming > at the same ultimate goal but not all Indic > traditions use the same > methods. Some clearly work with kundalini in a > deliberate way and > others don't. From the evidence I've seen to date, > I'd tend to feel > that the early Vedic tradition is one the doesn't. > Could you perhaps > give an example or two of what you feel are > kundalini specific > references in the Rg-Veda? > > > PS I do not see where Venugopal mentioned " Yoga " > blessings and lol. > > You are quite correct that he didn't use the term > " yoga " . However, > I'm very uncertain about what the referent could be > if the > kundalini " tradition " he referred to is not > something that could be > labeled yogic. I'm not being deliberately obtuse; I > honestly have no > idea what non-yogic content the kundalini tradition > could actually > have... > > Warm wishes, > Ryan > > > Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite group at http://in.promos./groups/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Hi Ryan, a great posting !! You mention Kashmir Saivism's link to the quest for a Kundalini Awakening and it brought back memories for me of the teachings of Muktananda (Siddha Yoga). His teaching staff developed a curriculum heavily centred on Kashmir Saivism in order to provide some orthodoxy for the Kundalini Awakening process which, through meditation, chanting and the transmission of Shaktipat, were the major tools used by Siddha Yoga in promoting an Awakening. But interestingly, also (and I quote from " Meditation Revolution: A History and Theology of the Siddha Yoga Lineage " ): " In Siddha Yoga, everyone chants the Rudram which is a portion of the Rig Veda - by reading and understanding these scriptures and thereby performing good actions, a person should make himself/herself a pure temple of God and worship the Lord of the Self within " - so I suppose the implication is that (at least) a tenuous link does exist between Siddha, Kundalini and the Rig Veda. However, unlike yourself, I've not read Rig Veda and thus can't comment on its relevance from a personal point of view. Ryan, many thanks for your excellent insights - Best Wishes - John. ==================================== Ryan wrote: " Hi - I've read two translations of the Rg-Veda (years ago) and honestly don't recall anything that seemed like an allusion to kundalini (or the symptomology of kundalini activation). It did strike me as pointing in the same direction as Indic spirituality in general. I can easily see how one could infer that passages refer to the higher realms of Indic spirituality. I believe that these " higher realms " are the same irregardless of whether a particular tradition employs a spiritual/contemplative technology that works deliberately with Kundalini. So, to that extent I agree. Nevertheless, I see nothing that appears to be kundalini specific in the same way that the " Yoga Upanishads " , the literature of the Natha Sampradaya, Kashmir Saivism, or Tantric Buddhism is clearly specific to kundalini. I'm not sure if I am expressing myself clearly, but I'm doing my best. What I'm trying to say is that Indic sadhanas in general are aiming at the same ultimate goal but not all Indic traditions use the same methods. Some clearly work with kundalini in a deliberate way and others don't. From the evidence I've seen to date, I'd tend to feel that the early Vedic tradition is one the doesn't. Could you perhaps give an example or two of what you feel are kundalini specific references in the Rg-Veda? PS I do not see where Venugopal mentioned " Yoga " blessings and lol. You are quite correct that he didn't use the term " yoga " . However, I'm very uncertain about what the referent could be if the kundalini " tradition " he referred to is not something that could be labeled yogic. I'm not being deliberately obtuse; I honestly have no idea what non-yogic content the kundalini tradition could actually have... Warm wishes, Ryan " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Hi Venugopal Thank you for taking the time to reply. > According to some Indian > Scholars, the Kundalini tradition is at least ten > thousand years old. Right now i am unable to provide a > reference but i am confident to do so with in a short > time. If you come across the reference again, I'd be very interested. > This went on > generation after generation and the culture called > Rishi Sanskrithi was developed. All the Vedas, > Upanishads, Yoga, Kundalini, Pranayama etc. are the > product of the " Rishi Sanskrithi " . As you yourself imply (e.g. " generation after generation " ), the composition of various texts occurred at very different times. The late Upanishads appear to be written epochs after the early Vedic texts. > Some Indian > scholars are of the opinion that this culture is > atleast 10,000 years old. The age of a " culture " and the age of a tradition or text within that culture are entirely different issues. Specifically regarding texts, a scholar needs to set out clearly defined reasons for the proposed " terminus post quem " and " terminus ante quem " of a text. In the absence of an outline of such reasons (as well as providing supporting evidence) a proposed dating can't really be considered anything other than a " personal belief " . >But the western scholars do > not agree with this and give some thing like 3000 to > 4000 years antiquity. This I quite true. Some are even more cautious. >Even today there are thousands > of Ashrams spread through out India which is devoted > to the Rishi Sanskrithi and follow a desciplined life > striving for Self-realisation. Certainly true, but the fact that ashrams exist tells us nothing about the age of the tradition (or individual elements within the tradition). > As an aside i will mention here that the > western scholars were of the opinion, till a few years > back, that human life appeared on earth some 500,000 > years back. This is still the widely held approximate date for the emergence of Homo sapiens sapiens. To date no archeological finds support a much earlier date (TtBoMK). >About two years back they refined this to > say one million years back. The only finds I am aware of from about 2 years ago were of hominids (could be called " human " ) but not " modern humans " . These did not change the dating of " modern humans " (Homo sapiens sapiens) nor did they change the dating of the emergence of " humans " (human-like hominids), which has been believed to be prior to 2.5 million years for decades. If I'm missing something, please let me know… >resently the > scholars/scientists say that human life appeared some > 10 million years back, on earth. I have no idea what you are referring to. If you are referring to the jawbone found by Kenyan and Japanese scientists in Nairobi in 2005, you are mistaken about what the find means. Nobody in the scientific community is claiming that it is a *human* jawbone. It is from an ape that may be a common ancestor of both humans and modern apes. It is an important find but tells us nothing about when humans emerged. > Some scholars say that the Yoga and > Kundalini traditions were transmitted by spoken word, > since there was no written language for thousands of > years. It is all but pointless to speculate about hypothetical oral traditions that left no physical evidence of their existence. The reason I say it is " pointless " is because we can't actually say anything about these traditions, because the left no evidence about what they contained or even if they actually exited. This is the realm of speculation and " personal belief " . > The Nath tradition you mentioned is > relatively recent development where in Gorakhnath took > Kundalini yoga to Tibet. The Nathas certainly contributed numerous practice lineages (many still extant) to Tibetan traditions, but Goraksa personally never went to Tibet. > I would like to write a little more on this > subject later. I'm looking forward to it. Thank you again for taking the time to write such an interesting reply Warm wishes, Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Howdy John, > - so I suppose the implication is that (at least) a tenuous link > does exist between Siddha, Kundalini and the Rig Veda. However, > unlike yourself, I've not read Rig Veda and thus can't comment on >its relevance from a personal point of view. Thanks for the reply. A person I consider one of my closest spiritual friends practiced for many years with Muktananda. I said that I didn't think early Vedic tradition worked -deliberately- with kundalini because it is clear that practices like chanting and japa can awaken kundalini... I think this is something like what you are pointing towards in a broad way. There is no question that a living spiritual thread passed on from the early Vedic times into the siddha sub-culture (which reached its apex in the Pala period) and that this living thread still is being passed on in Kashmir Saivism. So, I think we are largely on the same page. Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 If i may add a few lines with your permission : Kashmiri Shaivism is dated as 8th or 9th centuary - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Shaivism The text book used is " Siva Sutras " . Shri Swami Mukthanandas 'Sakthipat' is based on this, as somebody here pointed out already. Siva Sutras are available on the internet, but understanding this requires the help of a Guru. REF. : http://books.google.co.in/books?hl=en & id=cAjv-YmP2AEC & dq=siva+sutras & printsec=fr\ ontcover & source=web & ots=7AF6JJgjGm & sig=ufVkztf9NLRCyDozeHlk_3QYmYU Finding the hidden self : A study of the siva sutras As for the antiquity of Kundalini, the Harappan seals thought to be 5000 years old shows Yoga postures, according to a scholar. Regards Venugopal thecontemplative <thecontemplative wrote: Howdy John, > - so I suppose the implication is that (at least) a tenuous link > does exist between Siddha, Kundalini and the Rig Veda. However, > unlike yourself, I've not read Rig Veda and thus can't comment on >its relevance from a personal point of view. Thanks for the reply. A person I consider one of my closest spiritual friends practiced for many years with Muktananda. I said that I didn't think early Vedic tradition worked -deliberately- with kundalini because it is clear that practices like chanting and japa can awaken kundalini... I think this is something like what you are pointing towards in a broad way. There is no question that a living spiritual thread passed on from the early Vedic times into the siddha sub-culture (which reached its apex in the Pala period) and that this living thread still is being passed on in Kashmir Saivism. So, I think we are largely on the same page. Ryan Best Jokes, Best Friends, Best Food. Get all this and more on Best of Groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 thecontemplative <thecontemplative wrote: If you come across the reference again, I'd be very interested. I have read this some time back in a book. The auther asserts that Kundalini, Yoga, Indian spirituality is at least 10,000 years old. I have tried the net to get the same detail but failed. There is some reference about Harappan Seals, dated 5000 years back showing Yogic postures. As you yourself imply (e.g. " generation after generation " ), the composition of various texts occurred at very different times. The late Upanishads appear to be written epochs after the early Vedic texts. I agree. The Vedas originated at a period when no written language was present. It was memmorised in toto by some people and then taught to next generation. Even to-day there are thousands of people who knows the complete Vedas by-heart. There are several schools which admits students when they are 5 or 6 years old and then teach them the Vedas for 7 years. The Rytham, Pronounciation and Meter are important. Even today different types of Yagas are conducted, where the complete Vedas are chanted, from memory, not refering any book. Some visitors from western countries do come and witness these Yagas. The upanishads present Vedanta - literally meaning the end of the Vedas. The age of a " culture " and the age of a tradition or text within that culture are entirely different issues. Agreed. The book which i read says the origin of Vedas is at least 10,000 years old. I am not propounding any " Old is Gold " theory. But pointing out the well established tradition of Yoga, Kundalini and ascetisism. Specifically regarding texts, a scholar needs to set out clearly defined reasons for the proposed " terminus post quem " and " terminus ante quem " of a text. In the absence of an outline of such reasons (as well as providing supporting evidence) a proposed dating can't really be considered anything other than a " personal belief " . The Britishers were the first historians who wrote about the ancient Indian history. They were biased and put the period of Vedas as some where 500 BC. >Even today there are thousands > of Ashrams spread through out India which is devoted > to the Rishi Sanskrithi and follow a desciplined life > striving for Self-realisation. Certainly true, but the fact that ashrams exist tells us nothing about the age of the tradition (or individual elements within the tradition). I agree. I will present one exception that I know of. Scholars of ancient Indian history may be able to provide many more examples. Adi Sankaracharya (Possibly 788 – 820 CE) has established the Dasanami system of Asceticism. He established four Asrams. The number these Asrams multiplied and today there are Hundreds of Asrams belonging to the Dasanami Tradition. It is very evident that they are around 1200 years old. Shri Amrithanandamayee, well known as Amma belongs to this tradittion and her sect is known as 'Puri'. I have attended a speech by one Guru and he tells the names of all his ancestral Gurus upto Adi Sankara. This type of Information is available on the internet also, where a present day Guru traces his ancestry to Adi Sankara !! This is still the widely held approximate date for the emergence of Homo sapiens sapiens. To date no archeological finds support a much earlier date (TtBoMK). I have read news paper articles , citing research scholars that first human life appeared 10 million years back. As an aside i will present this incident : Around five years back it was a big news in Indian news papers that a NASA satellite has photographed a bridge between India and Sri Lanka. I had visited the NASA site and at that time they have asserted that it is a man made bridge and around 1.7 million years old. Recently there was a contraversy in India about a shipping channel to be made where for this bridge will have to be partially destroyed. Now Nasa says that they have never claimed the bridge to be 1.7 million years old or that it is amn made !! That is how politics influence history. About the bridge and its antiquity enough information is available on the internet. It is all but pointless to speculate about hypothetical oral traditions that left no physical evidence of their existence. The reason I say it is " pointless " is because we can't actually say anything about these traditions, because the left no evidence about what they contained or even if they actually exited. This is the realm of speculation and " personal belief " . This tradition of memmorising complete texts is still alive in India, generation after generation. There is a 'Caste' system where those who memmorise two Vedas are called 'Dwivedis'. Who memmorises three Vedas are 'Trivedis'. And four Vedas Scholars are 'Chathurvedis'. Inspite of all that the British have done to destroy the ancient Indian Traditions, these trditions are flourishing today. I hope i am not boring the other members by writing about the antiquity and historicity of Indian spiritual traditions. " Counting the trees, one misses the forest " With love and regards Venugopal Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2008 Report Share Posted April 30, 2008 I am sorry, there is some confusion here in deciding who said what. Hence i will edit and repost this. Venugopal AK <akvenugopal wrote: thecontemplative <thecontemplative wrote: Ryan :If you come across the reference again, I'd be very interested. VG :I have read this some time back in a book. The auther asserts that Kundalini, Yoga, Indian spirituality is at least 10,000 years old. I have tried the net to get the same detail but failed. There is some reference about Harappan Seals, dated 5000 years back showing Yogic postures. Ryan : As you yourself imply (e.g. " generation after generation " ), the composition of various texts occurred at very different times. The late Upanishads appear to be written epochs after the early Vedic texts. VG : I agree. The Vedas originated at a period when no written language was present. It was memmorised in toto by some people and then taught to next generation. Even to-day there are thousands of people who knows the complete Vedas by-heart. There are several schools which admits students when they are 5 or 6 years old and then teach them the Vedas for 7 years. The Rytham, Pronounciation and Meter are important. Even today different types of Yagas are conducted, where the complete Vedas are chanted, from memory, not refering any book. Some visitors from western countries do come and witness these Yagas. The upanishads present Vedanta - literally meaning the end of the Vedas. Ryan : The age of a " culture " and the age of a tradition or text within that culture are entirely different issues. VG : Agreed. The book which i read says the origin of Vedas is at least 10,000 years old. I am not propounding any " Old is Gold " theory. But pointing out the well established tradition of Yoga, Kundalini and ascetisism. Ryan : Specifically regarding texts, a scholar needs to set out clearly defined reasons for the proposed " terminus post quem " and " terminus ante quem " of a text. In the absence of an outline of such reasons (as well as providing supporting evidence) a proposed dating can't really be considered anything other than a " personal belief " . VG : The Britishers were the first historians who wrote about the ancient Indian history. They were biased and put the period of Vedas as some where 500 BC. >Even today there are thousands > of Ashrams spread through out India which is devoted > to the Rishi Sanskrithi and follow a desciplined life > striving for Self-realisation. Ryan : Certainly true, but the fact that ashrams exist tells us nothing about the age of the tradition (or individual elements within the tradition). VG : I agree. I will present one exception that I know of. Scholars of ancient Indian history may be able to provide many more examples. Adi Sankaracharya (Possibly 788 – 820 CE) has established the Dasanami system of Asceticism. He established four Asrams. The number these Asrams multiplied and today there are Hundreds of Asrams belonging to the Dasanami Tradition. It is very evident that they are around 1200 years old. Shri Amrithanandamayee, well known as Amma belongs to this tradittion and her sect is known as 'Puri'. I have attended a speech by one Guru and he tells the names of all his ancestral Gurus upto Adi Sankara. This type of Information is available on the internet also, where a present day Guru traces his ancestry to Adi Sankara !! Ryan : This is still the widely held approximate date for the emergence of Homo sapiens sapiens. To date no archeological finds support a much earlier date (TtBoMK). VG : I have read news paper articles , citing research scholars that first human life appeared 10 million years back. As an aside i will present this incident : Around five years back it was a big news in Indian news papers that a NASA satellite has photographed a bridge between India and Sri Lanka. I had visited the NASA site and at that time they have asserted that it is a man made bridge and around 1.7 million years old. Several photos taken by a satellite was available. Recently there was a contraversy in India about a shipping channel to be made where for this bridge will have to be partially destroyed. Now Nasa says that they have never claimed the bridge to be 1.7 million years old or that it is amn made !! That is how politics influence history. About the bridge and its antiquity enough information is available on the internet. Ryan : It is all but pointless to speculate about hypothetical oral traditions that left no physical evidence of their existence. The reason I say it is " pointless " is because we can't actually say anything about these traditions, because the left no evidence about what they contained or even if they actually exited. This is the realm of speculation and " personal belief " . VG : This tradition of memorising complete texts is still alive in India, generation after generation. There is a 'Caste' system where those who memmorise two Vedas are called 'Dwivedis'. Who memmorises three Vedas are 'Trivedis'. And four Vedas Scholars are 'Chathurvedis'. Inspite of all that the British have done to destroy the ancient Indian Traditions, these trditions are flourishing today. I hope i am not boring the other members by writing about the antiquity and historicity of Indian spiritual traditions. " Counting the trees, one misses the forest " With love and regards Venugopal Bollywood, fun, friendship, sports and more. You name it, we have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Howdy Venugopal, >The auther asserts that Kundalini, Yoga, Indian spirituality is at >least 10,000 years old. I have tried the net to get the same >detail but failed. Indian spirituality and kundalini-yoga are two entirely different things. I personally guarantee you the Indian spirituality is more than 100,000 year old. I say this because humans are spiritual by nature and –everywhere- you find humans you find spirituality in some form. When humans first moved in or through India they brought some form of spirituality with them. It is just unlikely that it was a type of kundalini-yoga >There is some reference about Harappan Seals, >dated 5000 years back showing Yogic postures. Actually, there is only one so-called " yoga posture " shown in the seals. A single sitting posture (which isn't even very difficult) can not really be called convincing evidence. If there were many seals, showing many yoga-like postures it *would* be pretty convincing evidence. Unfortunately, this isn't the case; there is just the single sitting posture. Moreover, the image looks more shamanic than yogic. I put a picture of the seal on my website. The image one the left is from the Indus valley and the image on the right is a shamanic image from ancient Europe. Both show horned men in sitting posture surrounded by various animals that they have presumably attracted with their magic. Here is the image: http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/horned_shamans.jpg >>Specifically regarding texts, a scholar needs to set out clearly >>defined reasons for the proposed " terminus post quem " and " terminus >>ante quem " of a text. In the absence of an outline of such reasons >>(as well as providing supporting evidence) a proposed dating can't >>really be considered anything other than a " personal belief " . > >The Britishers were the first historians who wrote about the ancient >Indian history. They were biased and put the period of Vedas as some >where 500 BC. I point out that if someone wants their dating to be taken seriously they need to put forth their reasons and then support those reasons with evidence… So, you respond by saying that the first " Brittishers " were wrong? You have completely lost me. What reasons does that offer me to take the 8,000 B.C.E. dating for the Vedas seriously? How does that backup those reasons with evidence? >I agree. I will present one exception that I know of. Scholars of >ancient Indian history may be able to provide many more examples. >Adi Sankaracharya (Possibly 788 – 820 CE)…. It is very evident >that they are around 1200 years old. That is even younger than the age for kundlini-yoga that I proposed could be supported by evidence, namely 1,500 years old. I don't see how that helps you. Moreover, did Sankara ever specifically mention kundalini in any of his writings? I don't believe he did. >I have read news paper articles , citing research scholars that >first human lifeappeared 10 million years back. Which is merely an excellent reason to *never* trust newspapers to get scientific facts correct. Scientists complain regularly about their discoveries being described in completely inaccurate ways. Until you show me otherwise, I am convince that you are talking about the 10 million year old *ape* jawbone discovered in Nairobi by the Kenyan and Japanese team. Some newspapers are worse than others, I once read that president Bush meets regularly with extraterrestrial beings ;-) >>It is all but pointless to speculate about hypothetical oral >>traditions that left no physical evidence of their existence. The >>reason I say it is " pointless " is because we can't actually say >>anything about these traditions, because the left no evidence about >>what they contained or even if they actually exited. This is the >>realm of speculation and " personal belief " . > >This tradition of memmorising complete texts is still alive in India, >generation after generation Yes, but this tells us nothing whatsoever about *what* (if anything) was being memorized 10,000 years ago. sarva mangalam, Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Dear Ryan, I will try to answer you privately the points raised by you. I do not want the members of this forum to be distracted by extraneous discussion. It is a widely held belief in India that God-realisation or Self-realisation is the highest achievement a human being can aspire for. The awakening of Kundalini leads to Self-realisation. Many in this forum are blessed thus and chrism is helping as a Guru. So i do not wish to cause distraction in any way. (The Vedantins say that the human being is caught on a birth-rebirth cycle and can escape only if s/he realises on an experiential level that s/he is a spiritual being and not the body-mind complex with which he readily identiofies himself.) I had already posted one reply stating that there are nine seals depicting Yogic p-ostures. Jhon Marshal was the first to suggest a Yogic posture on the Harappan seal. This does not correspond with the photograph on your site. I will send you more references in due time With love and regards Venugopal thecontemplative <thecontemplative wrote: Howdy Venugopal, >The auther asserts that Kundalini, Yoga, Indian spirituality is at >least 10,000 years old. I have tried the net to get the same >detail but failed. Indian spirituality and kundalini-yoga are two entirely different things. I personally guarantee you the Indian spirituality is more than 100,000 year old. I say this because humans are spiritual by nature and –everywhere- you find humans you find spirituality in some form. When humans first moved in or through India they brought some form of spirituality with them. It is just unlikely that it was a type of kundalini-yoga >There is some reference about Harappan Seals, >dated 5000 years back showing Yogic postures. Actually, there is only one so-called " yoga posture " shown in the seals. A single sitting posture (which isn't even very difficult) can not really be called convincing evidence. If there were many seals, showing many yoga-like postures it *would* be pretty convincing evidence. Unfortunately, this isn't the case; there is just the single sitting posture. Moreover, the image looks more shamanic than yogic. I put a picture of the seal on my website. The image one the left is from the Indus valley and the image on the right is a shamanic image from ancient Europe. Both show horned men in sitting posture surrounded by various animals that they have presumably attracted with their magic. Here is the image: http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/horned_shamans.jpg >>Specifically regarding texts, a scholar needs to set out clearly >>defined reasons for the proposed " terminus post quem " and " terminus >>ante quem " of a text. In the absence of an outline of such reasons >>(as well as providing supporting evidence) a proposed dating can't >>really be considered anything other than a " personal belief " . > >The Britishers were the first historians who wrote about the ancient >Indian history. They were biased and put the period of Vedas as some >where 500 BC. I point out that if someone wants their dating to be taken seriously they need to put forth their reasons and then support those reasons with evidence… So, you respond by saying that the first " Brittishers " were wrong? You have completely lost me. What reasons does that offer me to take the 8,000 B.C.E. dating for the Vedas seriously? How does that backup those reasons with evidence? >I agree. I will present one exception that I know of. Scholars of >ancient Indian history may be able to provide many more examples. >Adi Sankaracharya (Possibly 788 – 820 CE)…. It is very evident >that they are around 1200 years old. That is even younger than the age for kundlini-yoga that I proposed could be supported by evidence, namely 1,500 years old. I don't see how that helps you. Moreover, did Sankara ever specifically mention kundalini in any of his writings? I don't believe he did. >I have read news paper articles , citing research scholars that >first human lifeappeared 10 million years back. Which is merely an excellent reason to *never* trust newspapers to get scientific facts correct. Scientists complain regularly about their discoveries being described in completely inaccurate ways. Until you show me otherwise, I am convince that you are talking about the 10 million year old *ape* jawbone discovered in Nairobi by the Kenyan and Japanese team. Some newspapers are worse than others, I once read that president Bush meets regularly with extraterrestrial beings ;-) >>It is all but pointless to speculate about hypothetical oral >>traditions that left no physical evidence of their existence. The >>reason I say it is " pointless " is because we can't actually say >>anything about these traditions, because the left no evidence about >>what they contained or even if they actually exited. This is the >>realm of speculation and " personal belief " . > >This tradition of memmorising complete texts is still alive in India, >generation after generation Yes, but this tells us nothing whatsoever about *what* (if anything) was being memorized 10,000 years ago. sarva mangalam, Ryan Explore your hobbies and interests. Click here to begin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 Hi Venugopal, >I will try to answer you privately the points raised by you. I do not >want the members of this forum to be distracted by extraneous >discussion. That is fine with me. At this point we are the only two still talking about it anyway ;-) >I had already posted one reply stating that there are nine seals >depicting Yogic p-ostures. Jhon Marshal was the first to suggest > Yogic posture on the Harappan seal. I seem to have missed the reply in which you mentioned these nine seals. I have never seen these mentioned in any of the books on yoga or early Indus valley culture that I have read. So, I would be *deeply* gratefull if you could send me additional information, especially where I can see photographs of these seals. If you send me nothing else *please* send something on these seals. This is the most interesting lead I've heard about in years. >his does not correspond with the photograph on your site. The photograph on my site is of a Harappan seal and is found in dozens of books on yoga. It often cited as evidence that the Harappan culture practiced a form of yoga. sarva mangalam Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2008 Report Share Posted May 1, 2008 If I may chime in, in recent years Hugh Urban has published an excellent book where he delves into the history and pseudo-history of Indian spirituality, especially what goes by the fairly fuzzy name of " tantra. " This is a great, no-nonsense scholarly source that sheds a critical light on many popular claims and beliefs. Sel , Venugopal AK <akvenugopal wrote: > > Dear Ryan, > I will try to answer you privately the points raised by you. I do not want the members of this forum to be distracted by extraneous discussion. > It is a widely held belief in India that God-realisation or Self-realisation is the highest achievement a human being can aspire for. The awakening of Kundalini leads to Self-realisation. Many in this forum are blessed thus and chrism is helping as a Guru. So i do not wish to cause distraction in any way. (The Vedantins say that the human being is caught on a birth-rebirth cycle and can escape only if s/he realises on an experiential level that s/he is a spiritual being and not the body-mind complex with which he readily identiofies himself.) > I had already posted one reply stating that there are nine seals depicting Yogic p-ostures. Jhon Marshal was the first to suggest a Yogic posture on the Harappan seal. This does not correspond with the photograph on your site. I will send you more references in due time > With love and regards > Venugopal > > thecontemplative <thecontemplative wrote: Howdy Venugopal, > > >The auther asserts that Kundalini, Yoga, Indian spirituality is at > >least 10,000 years old. I have tried the net to get the same > >detail but failed. > > Indian spirituality and kundalini-yoga are two entirely different > things. I personally guarantee you the Indian spirituality is more > than 100,000 year old. I say this because humans are spiritual by > nature and –everywhere- you find humans you find spirituality in some > form. When humans first moved in or through India they brought some > form of spirituality with them. It is just unlikely that it was a > type of kundalini-yoga > > >There is some reference about Harappan Seals, > >dated 5000 years back showing Yogic postures. > > Actually, there is only one so-called " yoga posture " shown in the > seals. A single sitting posture (which isn't even very difficult) can > not really be called convincing evidence. If there were many seals, > showing many yoga-like postures it *would* be pretty convincing > evidence. Unfortunately, this isn't the case; there is just the > single sitting posture. Moreover, the image looks more shamanic than > yogic. > > I put a picture of the seal on my website. The image one the left is > from the Indus valley and the image on the right is a shamanic image > from ancient Europe. Both show horned men in sitting posture > surrounded by various animals that they have presumably attracted > with their magic. Here is the image: > http://vajrayana.faithweb.com/horned_shamans.jpg > > >>Specifically regarding texts, a scholar needs to set out clearly > >>defined reasons for the proposed " terminus post quem " and " terminus > >>ante quem " of a text. In the absence of an outline of such reasons > >>(as well as providing supporting evidence) a proposed dating can't > >>really be considered anything other than a " personal belief " . > > > >The Britishers were the first historians who wrote about the ancient > >Indian history. They were biased and put the period of Vedas as some > >where 500 BC. > > I point out that if someone wants their dating to be taken seriously > they need to put forth their reasons and then support those reasons > with evidence… So, you respond by saying that the first " Brittishers " > were wrong? You have completely lost me. > > What reasons does that offer me to take the 8,000 B.C.E. dating for > the Vedas seriously? How does that backup those reasons with evidence? > > >I agree. I will present one exception that I know of. Scholars of > >ancient Indian history may be able to provide many more examples. > >Adi Sankaracharya (Possibly 788 – 820 CE)…. It is very evident > >that they are around 1200 years old. > > That is even younger than the age for kundlini-yoga that I proposed > could be supported by evidence, namely 1,500 years old. I don't see > how that helps you. Moreover, did Sankara ever specifically mention > kundalini in any of his writings? I don't believe he did. > > >I have read news paper articles , citing research scholars that > >first human lifeappeared 10 million years back. > > Which is merely an excellent reason to *never* trust newspapers to > get scientific facts correct. Scientists complain regularly about > their discoveries being described in completely inaccurate ways. > Until you show me otherwise, I am convince that you are talking about > the 10 million year old *ape* jawbone discovered in Nairobi by the > Kenyan and Japanese team. > > Some newspapers are worse than others, I once read that president > Bush meets regularly with extraterrestrial beings ;-) > > >>It is all but pointless to speculate about hypothetical oral > >>traditions that left no physical evidence of their existence. The > >>reason I say it is " pointless " is because we can't actually say > >>anything about these traditions, because the left no evidence about > >>what they contained or even if they actually exited. This is the > >>realm of speculation and " personal belief " . > > > >This tradition of memmorising complete texts is still alive in India, > >generation after generation > > Yes, but this tells us nothing whatsoever about *what* (if anything) > was being memorized 10,000 years ago. > > sarva mangalam, > Ryan > Explore your hobbies and interests. Click here to begin. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.