Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Hi What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do you think it will be overturned? Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 it'll be overturned..no question the court that made the ruling is the has the most overturned verdicts here in the states it won't last,.... the bay area REALLY needs to secede..... fraggle " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: >Hi > >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do you think it will be overturned? > >Jo > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 on the otherside..the supreme court just ruled that public skools can give random drug tests to students here ya know, i think i'll go turn my neighbor in as a traitor to the state, and don my brown homeland security civilian patrol uniform.... fraggle " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: >Hi > >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do you think it will be overturned? > >Jo > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 It gets worse day by day, doesn't it. I believe some town here in England has just imposed a curfew on people under 16!!! Jo > on the otherside..the supreme court just ruled that public skools can give random drug tests to students here > > ya know, i think i'll go turn my neighbor in as a traitor to the state, and don my brown homeland security civilian patrol uniform.... > > fraggle > > " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: > > >Hi > > > >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do you think it will be overturned? > > > >Jo > > > > > >--- > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 What is so terrible about random drug tests on kids anyway? If they are drug-free they have nothing to fear from this, and if they have been given drugs, the problem can be discovered and they can be helped and encouraged to tell on the people who gave it to them. Don't you people want kids protected? You were a parent of young children at one time yourself. Maybe your kids were brought up to be sensible and never did drugs but not all children are well-protected and well-informed by the parents as to why they should say no, and even when the parents try really hard, it can still happen that the kids get bad influences from someone in school, hence the need for someone other than the parents to look out for them in some cases. I don't know much about curfews but I would not want kids to be out late at night, so no doubt it's for their own protection. I don't see the objection personally if it's about protection. My son is 9 and my daughter is 6 and have so far to my knowledge no opportunity for older kids to offer him anything, but I have heard of kids a lot younger being given drugs and told they are sweeties! There was a story in the papers of a 5 year old who was given LSD just a few days ago, by some older kids just playing in the street near her house a few yards away from her mother who was clearly not an irresponsible parent. The child was crying and confused and they said she could have died! Let's hope they catch whoever the older kids are who did this. It scares me that this can happen because it shows they only have to be out of your sight for 5 minutes and something bad can happen. I think it is good to have tough policies on drugs, as a parent I would support it - unless of course the drug test was actually done using non-vegan methods. I know things like antibody testing and pregnancy testing are usually not vegan, so that would be the main question for me as well as the issue of animal testing to develop such tests, but I can't see a problem with the actual principle of drugs testing. And what is the Pledge ruling, something about having to polish the furniture!? If so I'm guilty, I'm hopeless at any sort of housework. Lesley Heartwork [Heartwork]27 June 2002 17:13 Subject: Re: PledgeIt gets worse day by day, doesn't it. I believe some town here in Englandhas just imposed a curfew on people under 16!!!Jo> on the otherside..the supreme court just ruled that public skools can giverandom drug tests to students here>> ya know, i think i'll go turn my neighbor in as a traitor to the state,and don my brown homeland security civilian patrol uniform....>> fraggle>> "Peter" <Snowbow wrote:>> >Hi> >> >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do youthink it will be overturned?> >> >Jo> >> >> >---> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02> >>>> To send an email to - >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 i knew lesley would post on this wot my 16 yr old does is between me and him/her, and not the skool the skool has no business testing him/her for anything except education. we are turning skools into police states more and more every single day..corporate police states.. if my kid does something, i need to take care of it, i am a parent, i am responsible.... drug laws are draconic and intrusive and this is coming from someone who has never even smoke a cigarette the pledge ruling is that a court here in the states made it illegal to say the pledge in skool here because it has the phrase " under god " in it, which was added during the red scare McCarthyism bullcrap we went thru in 1954... a lot of states had been making it mandatory to say the pledge of allegiance in skool since last yr. the court struck it down it won't hold tho..it will get ovet turned and kids will have to stand and say the pledge all over again of course, i don't have kids... but, it still bugs the living bejeebeers out of me fraggle " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > >What is so terrible about random drug tests on kids anyway? If they are >drug-free they have nothing to fear from this, and if they have been given >drugs, the problem can be discovered and they can be helped and encouraged >to tell on the people who gave it to them. Don't you people want kids >protected? You were a parent of young children at one time yourself. Maybe >your kids were brought up to be sensible and never did drugs but not all >children are well-protected and well-informed by the parents as to why they >should say no, and even when the parents try really hard, it can still >happen that the kids get bad influences from someone in school, hence the >need for someone other than the parents to look out for them in some cases. >I don't know much about curfews but I would not want kids to be out late at >night, so no doubt it's for their own protection. I don't see the objection >personally if it's about protection. My son is 9 and my daughter is 6 and >have so far to my knowledge no opportunity for older kids to offer him >anything, but I have heard of kids a lot younger being given drugs and told >they are sweeties! There was a story in the papers of a 5 year old who was >given LSD just a few days ago, by some older kids just playing in the street >near her house a few yards away from her mother who was clearly not an >irresponsible parent. The child was crying and confused and they said she >could have died! Let's hope they catch whoever the older kids are who did >this. It scares me that this can happen because it shows they only have to >be out of your sight for 5 minutes and something bad can happen. I think it >is good to have tough policies on drugs, as a parent I would support it - >unless of course the drug test was actually done using non-vegan methods. I >know things like antibody testing and pregnancy testing are usually not >vegan, so that would be the main question for me as well as the issue of >animal testing to develop such tests, but I can't see a problem with the >actual principle of drugs testing. > >And what is the Pledge ruling, something about having to polish the >furniture!? >If so I'm guilty, I'm hopeless at any sort of housework. > >Lesley > > > Heartwork [Heartwork] > 27 June 2002 17:13 > > Re: Pledge > > > It gets worse day by day, doesn't it. I believe some town here in England > has just imposed a curfew on people under 16!!! > > Jo > > > on the otherside..the supreme court just ruled that public skools can >give > random drug tests to students here > > > > ya know, i think i'll go turn my neighbor in as a traitor to the state, > and don my brown homeland security civilian patrol uniform.... > > > > fraggle > > > > " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: > > > > >Hi > > > > > >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do >you > think it will be overturned? > > > > > >Jo > > > > > > > > >--- > > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 How did you know I would have an opinion? The "skool" does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they should be involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with behaviour that might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they can hardly concentrate on learning and the parents might be grateful to the school for discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there was such a problem for one of mine. You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but you do drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own admission and don't tell me that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some smokers if you are drinking a lot. I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I don't even believe in god, even if I did I would respect other people's right not to. If religious parents want to send their children to religious schools that is their choice, but state schools should be neutral on religion, surely. Lesley EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]27 June 2002 18:23 Subject: RE: Pledgei knew lesley would post on this:)wot my 16 yr old does is between me and him/her, and not the skoolthe skool has no business testing him/her for anything except education.we are turning skools into police states more and more every single day..corporate police states..if my kid does something, i need to take care of it, i am a parent, i am responsible....drug laws are draconic and intrusiveand this is coming from someone who has never even smoke a cigarettethe pledge ruling is that a court here in the states made it illegal to say the pledge in skool here because it has the phrase " under god" in it, which was added during the red scare McCarthyism bullcrap we went thru in 1954...a lot of states had been making it mandatory to say the pledge of allegiance in skool since last yr.the court struck it downit won't hold tho..it will get ovet turned and kids will have to stand and say the pledge all over againof course, i don't have kids...but, it still bugs the living bejeebeers out of mefraggle"Lesley Dove" <Lesley wrote:>>What is so terrible about random drug tests on kids anyway? If they are>drug-free they have nothing to fear from this, and if they have been given>drugs, the problem can be discovered and they can be helped and encouraged>to tell on the people who gave it to them. Don't you people want kids>protected? You were a parent of young children at one time yourself. Maybe>your kids were brought up to be sensible and never did drugs but not all>children are well-protected and well-informed by the parents as to why they>should say no, and even when the parents try really hard, it can still>happen that the kids get bad influences from someone in school, hence the>need for someone other than the parents to look out for them in some cases.>I don't know much about curfews but I would not want kids to be out late at>night, so no doubt it's for their own protection. I don't see the objection>personally if it's about protection. My son is 9 and my daughter is 6 and>have so far to my knowledge no opportunity for older kids to offer him>anything, but I have heard of kids a lot younger being given drugs and told>they are sweeties! There was a story in the papers of a 5 year old who was>given LSD just a few days ago, by some older kids just playing in the street>near her house a few yards away from her mother who was clearly not an>irresponsible parent. The child was crying and confused and they said she>could have died! Let's hope they catch whoever the older kids are who did>this. It scares me that this can happen because it shows they only have to>be out of your sight for 5 minutes and something bad can happen. I think it>is good to have tough policies on drugs, as a parent I would support it ->unless of course the drug test was actually done using non-vegan methods. I>know things like antibody testing and pregnancy testing are usually not>vegan, so that would be the main question for me as well as the issue of>animal testing to develop such tests, but I can't see a problem with the>actual principle of drugs testing.>>And what is the Pledge ruling, something about having to polish the>furniture!?>If so I'm guilty, I'm hopeless at any sort of housework.>>Lesley>> > Heartwork [Heartwork]> 27 June 2002 17:13> > Re: Pledge>>> It gets worse day by day, doesn't it. I believe some town here in England> has just imposed a curfew on people under 16!!!>> Jo>> > on the otherside..the supreme court just ruled that public skools can>give> random drug tests to students here> >> > ya know, i think i'll go turn my neighbor in as a traitor to the state,> and don my brown homeland security civilian patrol uniform....> >> > fraggle> >> > "Peter" <Snowbow wrote:> >> > >Hi> > >> > >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do>you> think it will be overturned?> > >> > >Jo> > >> > >> > >---> > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> > >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02> > >> >> >> > To send an email to - > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 most of us take drugs everyday yer right, i drink, and many folks take aspirin, drink coffee..all are drugs i knew you would reply because i've seen yer e-mails fer the last 2 yrs and yes, skools are a partnership..not a police state that will just make more kids drop out this isn't about drug testing 8 yr olds, this is snooping into the lives of teens " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > >How did you know I would have an opinion? > >The " skool " does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they should be >involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with behaviour that >might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they can hardly >concentrate on learning and the parents might be grateful to the school for >discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there was such a >problem for one of mine. > >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but you do >drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own admission and don't tell me >that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some smokers >if you are drinking a lot. > >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I don't even >believe in god, even if I did I would respect other people's right not to. >If religious parents want to send their children to religious schools that >is their choice, but state schools should be neutral on religion, surely. > >Lesley > > > EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx] > 27 June 2002 18:23 > > RE: Pledge > > > i knew lesley would post on this > > wot my 16 yr old does is between me and him/her, and not the skool > the skool has no business testing him/her for anything except education. > we are turning skools into police states more and more every single >day..corporate police states.. > if my kid does something, i need to take care of it, i am a parent, i am >responsible.... > drug laws are draconic and intrusive > and this is coming from someone who has never even smoke a cigarette > the pledge ruling is that a court here in the states made it illegal to >say the pledge in skool here because it has the phrase " under god " in it, >which was added during the red scare McCarthyism bullcrap we went thru in >1954... > a lot of states had been making it mandatory to say the pledge of >allegiance in skool since last yr. > the court struck it down > it won't hold tho..it will get ovet turned and kids will have to stand and >say the pledge all over again > of course, i don't have kids... > but, it still bugs the living bejeebeers out of me > fraggle > > > > " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > >What is so terrible about random drug tests on kids anyway? If they are > >drug-free they have nothing to fear from this, and if they have been >given > >drugs, the problem can be discovered and they can be helped and >encouraged > >to tell on the people who gave it to them. Don't you people want kids > >protected? You were a parent of young children at one time yourself. >Maybe > >your kids were brought up to be sensible and never did drugs but not all > >children are well-protected and well-informed by the parents as to why >they > >should say no, and even when the parents try really hard, it can still > >happen that the kids get bad influences from someone in school, hence the > >need for someone other than the parents to look out for them in some >cases. > >I don't know much about curfews but I would not want kids to be out late >at > >night, so no doubt it's for their own protection. I don't see the >objection > >personally if it's about protection. My son is 9 and my daughter is 6 and > >have so far to my knowledge no opportunity for older kids to offer him > >anything, but I have heard of kids a lot younger being given drugs and >told > >they are sweeties! There was a story in the papers of a 5 year old who >was > >given LSD just a few days ago, by some older kids just playing in the >street > >near her house a few yards away from her mother who was clearly not an > >irresponsible parent. The child was crying and confused and they said she > >could have died! Let's hope they catch whoever the older kids are who did > >this. It scares me that this can happen because it shows they only have >to > >be out of your sight for 5 minutes and something bad can happen. I think >it > >is good to have tough policies on drugs, as a parent I would support it - > >unless of course the drug test was actually done using non-vegan methods. >I > >know things like antibody testing and pregnancy testing are usually not > >vegan, so that would be the main question for me as well as the issue of > >animal testing to develop such tests, but I can't see a problem with the > >actual principle of drugs testing. > > > >And what is the Pledge ruling, something about having to polish the > >furniture!? > >If so I'm guilty, I'm hopeless at any sort of housework. > > > >Lesley > > > > > > Heartwork [Heartwork] > > 27 June 2002 17:13 > > > > Re: Pledge > > > > > > It gets worse day by day, doesn't it. I believe some town here in >England > > has just imposed a curfew on people under 16!!! > > > > Jo > > > > > on the otherside..the supreme court just ruled that public skools can > >give > > random drug tests to students here > > > > > > ya know, i think i'll go turn my neighbor in as a traitor to the >state, > > and don my brown homeland security civilian patrol uniform.... > > > > > > fraggle > > > > > > " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: > > > > > > >Hi > > > > > > > >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do > >you > > think it will be overturned? > > > > > > > >Jo > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to >- > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Lesley I don't think tests on any people are a good idea. It is a human rights issue - just because someone is young doesn't mean to say that they should be abused by the system. We (America and Britain) seem to be handing over our rights lock, stock and barrel, to the governments. Every day we hear of more erosion to our rights. Soon we'll be so hog-tied we'll have to ask to breathe! Jo What is so terrible about random drug tests on kids anyway? If they are drug-free they have nothing to fear from this, and if they have been given drugs, the problem can be discovered and they can be helped and encouraged to tell on the people who gave it to them. Don't you people want kids protected? You were a parent of young children at one time yourself. Maybe your kids were brought up to be sensible and never did drugs but not all children are well-protected and well-informed by the parents as to why they should say no, and even when the parents try really hard, it can still happen that the kids get bad influences from someone in school, hence the need for someone other than the parents to look out for them in some cases. I don't know much about curfews but I would not want kids to be out late at night, so no doubt it's for their own protection. I don't see the objection personally if it's about protection. My son is 9 and my daughter is 6 and have so far to my knowledge no opportunity for older kids to offer him anything, but I have heard of kids a lot younger being given drugs and told they are sweeties! There was a story in the papers of a 5 year old who was given LSD just a few days ago, by some older kids just playing in the street near her house a few yards away from her mother who was clearly not an irresponsible parent. The child was crying and confused and they said she could have died! Let's hope they catch whoever the older kids are who did this. It scares me that this can happen because it shows they only have to be out of your sight for 5 minutes and something bad can happen. I think it is good to have tough policies on drugs, as a parent I would support it - unless of course the drug test was actually done using non-vegan methods. I know things like antibody testing and pregnancy testing are usually not vegan, so that would be the main question for me as well as the issue of animal testing to develop such tests, but I can't see a problem with the actual principle of drugs testing. And what is the Pledge ruling, something about having to polish the furniture!? If so I'm guilty, I'm hopeless at any sort of housework. Lesley Heartwork [Heartwork]27 June 2002 17:13 Subject: Re: PledgeIt gets worse day by day, doesn't it. I believe some town here in Englandhas just imposed a curfew on people under 16!!!Jo> on the otherside..the supreme court just ruled that public skools can giverandom drug tests to students here>> ya know, i think i'll go turn my neighbor in as a traitor to the state,and don my brown homeland security civilian patrol uniform....>> fraggle>> "Peter" <Snowbow wrote:>> >Hi> >> >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do youthink it will be overturned?> >> >Jo> >> >> >---> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02> >>>> To send an email to - >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Lesley >The "skool" does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they should be involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with >behaviour that might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they can hardly concentrate on learning and the parents might >be grateful to the school for discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there was such a problem for one of mine. Maybe things have changed since my kids were at school. I don't think that schools are that good. I certainly would not consider going into partnership with anyone (other than Colin) or any 'body' concerning my kids. When I was at school (yes, I know it was a long, long time ago), if somebody did something wrong and the teacher didn't know who it was, then everybody in the classs got a smack on the hand with a ruler. This was wrong and unfair. If you have tests for drugs on random students just because a few may be taking drugs - then this must be wrong and unfair. Do you not think that youngsters should have rights? How would you like it if there were random tests for drugs at your workplace, or your partner's workplace, or the local cinema, or restaurant? >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but you do drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own >admission and don't tell me that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some smokers if you are drinking a >lot. I used to smoke (normal cigarettes). I do not smoke now, and I refrain from alcohol. My honest opinion is that someone (no matter whether they are 10, 20, etc. 100) will either take drugs or not, depending on their character and their life experience. I do not like the idea of putting the school in a position of authority over the lives of my children (or should I say - I didn't when they were kids). Schools often cause more problems than they are worth. >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I don't even believe in god, even if I did I would respect other >people's right not to. If religious parents want to send their children to religious schools that is their choice, but state schools >should be neutral on religion, surely. Is it a good idea to say a pledge to your country? whether god is mentioned or not. I believe in America that the schools should not have any religion at all, which is why the pledge recital goes against the laws. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Hi Lesley >I don't know much about curfews but I would not want kids to be out late at night, so no doubt it's for their own protection. I don't see the objection personally if it's about protection. My kids were not out late at night either, but it is not for their own protection. It has been imposed because some youngsters cause trouble. So because some people cause trouble all young people are penalised! Say there were a load of young mums in your area causing trouble at the local tea shops in the afternoon - would it be fair for there to be a curfew on all young mums in the afternoon??? The way to keep youngsters off the streets is to make them and their friends feel welcome in your home, interest them in various things, even if it is playing computer games or watching telly - show an interest in your kids. >My son is 9 and my daughter is 6 and have so far to my knowledge no opportunity for older kids to offer him anything, but I have >heard of kids a lot younger being given drugs and told they are sweeties! There was a story in the papers of a 5 year old who >was given LSD just a few days ago, by some older kids just playing in the street near her house a few yards away from her >mother who was clearly not an irresponsible parent. The child was crying and confused and they said she could have died! Let's >hope they catch whoever the older kids are who did this. I agree - I do hope they catch and punish the people who did this. Let's hope they don't punish all the innocent people who were on the street at that time as well! And what is the Pledge ruling, something about having to polish the furniture!? If so I'm guilty, I'm hopeless at any sort of housework. Me too :-) Jo Lesley Heartwork [Heartwork]27 June 2002 17:13 Subject: Re: PledgeIt gets worse day by day, doesn't it. I believe some town here in Englandhas just imposed a curfew on people under 16!!!Jo> on the otherside..the supreme court just ruled that public skools can giverandom drug tests to students here>> ya know, i think i'll go turn my neighbor in as a traitor to the state,and don my brown homeland security civilian patrol uniform....>> fraggle>> "Peter" <Snowbow wrote:>> >Hi> >> >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do youthink it will be overturned?> >> >Jo> >> >> >---> >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02> >>>> To send an email to - >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 only if you have a govt license, and get yer air from a multinational corp that gave enough money to some political party... fraggle " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: >Lesley > >I don't think tests on any people are a good idea. It is a human rights issue - just because someone is young doesn't mean to say that they should be abused by the system. > >We (America and Britain) seem to be handing over our rights lock, stock and barrel, to the governments. Every day we hear of more erosion to our rights. Soon we'll be so hog-tied we'll have to ask to breathe! > >Jo > > > > What is so terrible about random drug tests on kids anyway? If they are drug-free they have nothing to fear from this, and if they have been given drugs, the problem can be discovered and they can be helped and encouraged to tell on the people who gave it to them. Don't you people want kids protected? You were a parent of young children at one time yourself. Maybe your kids were brought up to be sensible and never did drugs but not all children are well-protected and well-informed by the parents as to why they should say no, and even when the parents try really hard, it can still happen that the kids get bad influences from someone in school, hence the need for someone other than the parents to look out for them in some cases. I don't know much about curfews but I would not want kids to be out late at night, so no doubt it's for their own protection. I don't see the objection personally if it's about protection. My son is 9 and my daughter is 6 and have so far to my knowledge no opportunity for older kids to offer him anything, but I have heard of kids a lot younger being given drugs and told they are sweeties! There was a story in the papers of a 5 year old who was given LSD just a few days ago, by some older kids just playing in the street near her house a few yards away from her mother who was clearly not an irresponsible parent. The child was crying and confused and they said she could have died! Let's hope they catch whoever the older kids are who did this. It scares me that this can happen because it shows they only have to be out of your sight for 5 minutes and something bad can happen. I think it is good to have tough policies on drugs, as a parent I would support it - unless of course the drug test was actually done using non-vegan methods. I know things like antibody testing and pregnancy testing are usually not vegan, so that would be the main question for me as well as the issue of animal testing to develop such tests, but I can't see a problem with the actual principle of drugs testing. > > And what is the Pledge ruling, something about having to polish the furniture!? > If so I'm guilty, I'm hopeless at any sort of housework. > > Lesley > > > Heartwork [Heartwork] > 27 June 2002 17:13 > > Re: Pledge > > > It gets worse day by day, doesn't it. I believe some town here in England > has just imposed a curfew on people under 16!!! > > Jo > > > on the otherside..the supreme court just ruled that public skools can give > random drug tests to students here > > > > ya know, i think i'll go turn my neighbor in as a traitor to the state, > and don my brown homeland security civilian patrol uniform.... > > > > fraggle > > > > " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: > > > > >Hi > > > > > >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do you > think it will be overturned? > > > > > >Jo > > > > > > > > >--- > > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 Hi Lesley > The "skool" does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they should be involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with > behaviour that might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they can hardly concentrate on learning and the parents might > be grateful to the school for discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there was such a problem for one of mine. I disagree completely with what you say on schools. They should be there to educate children (which they do a particularly poor job of anyway) - that is where their input into children's lives should start and end. Of course they have a responsibility to look after children *while they are at school*, but that is it. What schools currently do is try to force children to think in a way which will help to keep them in a state of "mind-control", and giving schools rights which can morally only belong to the parents is not only irresponsible, but highly dangerous. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2002 Report Share Posted June 27, 2002 They aren't allowed to cane them any more and haven't for years as far as I know. I agree what you described was wrong and unfair, but that was a long time ago. Some schools are very good now, my son has behaviour problems and really is hard to cope with sometimes, but he gets lots of support, I have no criticisms. I do worry that when we move things will not be so good at the new school. It would be hard to find such a great group of teachers and helpers I think. I certainly would not be capable of home educating, and I am very grateful for the teachers and learning assistants. I think teachers are so underrespected these days, and yet I they seemed to be respected more when they used to hit kids with rulers! That seems all back to front to me. It was bad when I was at school too, I went to a Grammar School where the headmistress caned a girl badly and her parents went to the European Court of Human Rights over it and lost their case. I think if it had happened a few years later they would have won. I was horrified that they lost, and we lived in terror of this evil woman! I wouldn't honestly mind random drug tests, I have nothing to fear, and if it catches people who need help, I'm absolutely OK with it. Where I would object is if it seemed that certain people were being singled out and tested the way they looked and dressed, you should never judge a book by its cover, I think. You used to smoke and you had kids, so was it right that you were allowed to inflict your deadly habit on them? I actually wish some agency had had me removed to foster parents, because I was so ill from my mother smoking around me, hopefully in a few years parental smoking will be taken as seriously as any other form of child abuse. I feel very let down by our doctor for not advising my mum to stop smoking as I was always ill with chest problems until I left home as a young adult. I feel very angry that social services and doctors would rather harass innocent vegan parents when they need to be protecting children in real danger. I have more respect generally for teachers than I have for social workers and doctors, because of a combination of my own and other vegan families experiences. I don't always trust authority by any means and am especially aware of anti-vegan prejudice by some professionals in agencies in authority. I'm not a nationalist, I don't like the idea of a nationalist pledge any more than I like the idea of a religious pledge. Maybe a pledge to international peace would be more appropriate. Lesley Heartwork [Heartwork]27 June 2002 20:03 Subject: Re: Pledge Lesley >The "skool" does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they should be involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with >behaviour that might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they can hardly concentrate on learning and the parents might >be grateful to the school for discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there was such a problem for one of mine. Maybe things have changed since my kids were at school. I don't think that schools are that good. I certainly would not consider going into partnership with anyone (other than Colin) or any 'body' concerning my kids. When I was at school (yes, I know it was a long, long time ago), if somebody did something wrong and the teacher didn't know who it was, then everybody in the classs got a smack on the hand with a ruler. This was wrong and unfair. If you have tests for drugs on random students just because a few may be taking drugs - then this must be wrong and unfair. Do you not think that youngsters should have rights? How would you like it if there were random tests for drugs at your workplace, or your partner's workplace, or the local cinema, or restaurant? >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but you do drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own >admission and don't tell me that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some smokers if you are drinking a >lot. I used to smoke (normal cigarettes). I do not smoke now, and I refrain from alcohol. My honest opinion is that someone (no matter whether they are 10, 20, etc. 100) will either take drugs or not, depending on their character and their life experience. I do not like the idea of putting the school in a position of authority over the lives of my children (or should I say - I didn't when they were kids). Schools often cause more problems than they are worth. >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I don't even believe in god, even if I did I would respect other >people's right not to. If religious parents want to send their children to religious schools that is their choice, but state schools >should be neutral on religion, surely. Is it a good idea to say a pledge to your country? whether god is mentioned or not. I believe in America that the schools should not have any religion at all, which is why the pledge recital goes against the laws. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 Hi Jo, I must have missed something. What's that about a pledge ruling? Werner. ---- Thursday, June 27, 2002 8:20:16 AM Pledge Hi What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? Do you think it will be overturned? Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 Hi Lesley >I wouldn't honestly mind random drug tests, I have nothing to fear, and if it catches people who need help, I'm absolutely OK >with it. Where I would object is if it seemed that certain people were being singled out and tested the way they looked and >dressed, you should never judge a book by its cover, I think. I have nothing to fear about being tested either as I have never tried any drugs at all, but that is not the point. I don't do anything that is illegal or immoral or unethical, but it doesn't mean that I should submit to every test available to prove it. Why do you give so much power to other people? >You used to smoke and you had kids, so was it right that you were allowed to inflict your deadly habit on them? I actually wish >some agency had had me removed to foster parents, because I was so ill from my mother smoking around me, hopefully in a >few years parental smoking will be taken as seriously as any other form of child abuse. I feel very let down by our doctor for not >advising my mum to stop smoking as I was always ill with chest problems until I left home as a young adult. I actually stopped smoking 29 years ago, before Peter was expected, and I never inflicted my deadly habit on them at all. I have lived a fairly long life and all the things I have done have not been done concurrently. At that time it was fairly normal for people to smoke, and it was not generally known to be harmful (although in retrospect everyone should have known), and also most people were not so concerned or knowledgeable about their health as they are now. >I feel very angry that social services and doctors would rather harass innocent vegan parents when they need to be protecting >children in real danger. This rather proves my point - it is no business of the schools/social people. There have been a couple of incidents recently where children have died because their parents have fed them inadequately, and these parents have claimed to be vegan. You feed your children well, but you don't like being targetted for what other parents do. Most youngsters and their parents don't like to be targetted by drug tests because a few other people take drugs. >I have more respect generally for teachers than I have for social workers and doctors, because of a combination of my own and >other vegan families experiences. I don't always trust authority by any means and am especially aware of anti-vegan prejudice >by some professionals in agencies in authority. I'm not a nationalist, I don't like the idea of a nationalist pledge any more than I like the idea of a religious pledge. Maybe a pledge to international peace would be more appropriate. I always think the trouble with a pledge is that you either intend something, or you don't, and 'pledging' doesn't really make much difference to the way you are going to behave. If it did, then there wouldn't be all the divorces that there are, but yes, if there has to be a pledge at all then I suppose international peace would be the best. Jo Lesley Heartwork [Heartwork]27 June 2002 20:03 Subject: Re: Pledge Lesley >The "skool" does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they should be involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with >behaviour that might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they can hardly concentrate on learning and the parents might >be grateful to the school for discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there was such a problem for one of mine. Maybe things have changed since my kids were at school. I don't think that schools are that good. I certainly would not consider going into partnership with anyone (other than Colin) or any 'body' concerning my kids. When I was at school (yes, I know it was a long, long time ago), if somebody did something wrong and the teacher didn't know who it was, then everybody in the classs got a smack on the hand with a ruler. This was wrong and unfair. If you have tests for drugs on random students just because a few may be taking drugs - then this must be wrong and unfair. Do you not think that youngsters should have rights? How would you like it if there were random tests for drugs at your workplace, or your partner's workplace, or the local cinema, or restaurant? >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but you do drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own >admission and don't tell me that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some smokers if you are drinking a >lot. I used to smoke (normal cigarettes). I do not smoke now, and I refrain from alcohol. My honest opinion is that someone (no matter whether they are 10, 20, etc. 100) will either take drugs or not, depending on their character and their life experience. I do not like the idea of putting the school in a position of authority over the lives of my children (or should I say - I didn't when they were kids). Schools often cause more problems than they are worth. >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I don't even believe in god, even if I did I would respect other >people's right not to. If religious parents want to send their children to religious schools that is their choice, but state schools >should be neutral on religion, surely. Is it a good idea to say a pledge to your country? whether god is mentioned or not. I believe in America that the schools should not have any religion at all, which is why the pledge recital goes against the laws. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 I'm very sorry I accused you of smoking when you had kids, I was bang out of order, I didn't know you quit before having them. I do know of some vegan parents who smoke and it appals me that they are so selfish. I agree that people should have known that smoking was harmful long before there was proof, it seems such an obvious thing to me that breathing in smoke would cause illness, even without research that proves it. Unfortunately it is still fairly normal to smoke, I see so many parents near the school smoking after dropping off their kids. Some even have been spotted smoking in their cars with the children in the car too. It's very hard to know when the authorities should get involved with families, obviously sometimes they do have to protect children in danger, but they seem to make so many mistakes, targeting kind families such as vegans and pagans, accusing them of starving their kids and "satanic" child abuse respectively, while other children who are truly abused are dying needlessly. The SS have a long way to go before they get it right. They really need to drop certain prejudices. I don't think we can say it is no-one's business, some children really are abused and killed by their own families. I'd be OK submitting to testing because I would see it as for the greater good, even though it would be pointless for me as I don't take illicit drugs and hardly ever drink alcohol either. I can't honestly compare a little drug test to having my kids taken away, a drug test is such a little thing really, so I would not make a fuss about it, because I believe that more good than harm can come of having random testing. I guess I might feel a little insulted that someone might think I was on drugs, but that would be all. In the case of harassing families for raising children vegan and even removing children without good reason, just because one other vegan family out of hundreds has had a child die of malnutrition, I believe that more harm than good is done by the SS indiscriminately picking on vegans as they appear to be doing. In the end I have my views because of what I see as being acceptable for the greater good, but hey who says we vegans have to always agree! Lesley Heartwork [Heartwork]28 June 2002 09:20 Subject: Re: Pledge Hi Lesley >I wouldn't honestly mind random drug tests, I have nothing to fear, and if it catches people who need help, I'm absolutely OK >with it. Where I would object is if it seemed that certain people were being singled out and tested the way they looked and >dressed, you should never judge a book by its cover, I think. I have nothing to fear about being tested either as I have never tried any drugs at all, but that is not the point. I don't do anything that is illegal or immoral or unethical, but it doesn't mean that I should submit to every test available to prove it. Why do you give so much power to other people? >You used to smoke and you had kids, so was it right that you were allowed to inflict your deadly habit on them? I actually wish >some agency had had me removed to foster parents, because I was so ill from my mother smoking around me, hopefully in a >few years parental smoking will be taken as seriously as any other form of child abuse. I feel very let down by our doctor for not >advising my mum to stop smoking as I was always ill with chest problems until I left home as a young adult. I actually stopped smoking 29 years ago, before Peter was expected, and I never inflicted my deadly habit on them at all. I have lived a fairly long life and all the things I have done have not been done concurrently. At that time it was fairly normal for people to smoke, and it was not generally known to be harmful (although in retrospect everyone should have known), and also most people were not so concerned or knowledgeable about their health as they are now. >I feel very angry that social services and doctors would rather harass innocent vegan parents when they need to be protecting >children in real danger. This rather proves my point - it is no business of the schools/social people. There have been a couple of incidents recently where children have died because their parents have fed them inadequately, and these parents have claimed to be vegan. You feed your children well, but you don't like being targetted for what other parents do. Most youngsters and their parents don't like to be targetted by drug tests because a few other people take drugs. >I have more respect generally for teachers than I have for social workers and doctors, because of a combination of my own and >other vegan families experiences. I don't always trust authority by any means and am especially aware of anti-vegan prejudice >by some professionals in agencies in authority. I'm not a nationalist, I don't like the idea of a nationalist pledge any more than I like the idea of a religious pledge. Maybe a pledge to international peace would be more appropriate. I always think the trouble with a pledge is that you either intend something, or you don't, and 'pledging' doesn't really make much difference to the way you are going to behave. If it did, then there wouldn't be all the divorces that there are, but yes, if there has to be a pledge at all then I suppose international peace would be the best. Jo Lesley Heartwork [Heartwork]27 June 2002 20:03 Subject: Re: Pledge Lesley >The "skool" does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they should be involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with >behaviour that might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they can hardly concentrate on learning and the parents might >be grateful to the school for discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there was such a problem for one of mine. Maybe things have changed since my kids were at school. I don't think that schools are that good. I certainly would not consider going into partnership with anyone (other than Colin) or any 'body' concerning my kids. When I was at school (yes, I know it was a long, long time ago), if somebody did something wrong and the teacher didn't know who it was, then everybody in the classs got a smack on the hand with a ruler. This was wrong and unfair. If you have tests for drugs on random students just because a few may be taking drugs - then this must be wrong and unfair. Do you not think that youngsters should have rights? How would you like it if there were random tests for drugs at your workplace, or your partner's workplace, or the local cinema, or restaurant? >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but you do drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own >admission and don't tell me that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some smokers if you are drinking a >lot. I used to smoke (normal cigarettes). I do not smoke now, and I refrain from alcohol. My honest opinion is that someone (no matter whether they are 10, 20, etc. 100) will either take drugs or not, depending on their character and their life experience. I do not like the idea of putting the school in a position of authority over the lives of my children (or should I say - I didn't when they were kids). Schools often cause more problems than they are worth. >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I don't even believe in god, even if I did I would respect other >people's right not to. If religious parents want to send their children to religious schools that is their choice, but state schools >should be neutral on religion, surely. Is it a good idea to say a pledge to your country? whether god is mentioned or not. I believe in America that the schools should not have any religion at all, which is why the pledge recital goes against the laws. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 first they drug test you its just a little thing, right, and you have nothing to worry about, because you don';t do drugs then, they arrest people who don't wear seatbelts well, they deserve it, because it is for their own good then anyone people who support the sierra club, greenpeace, etc are watched..well, we all know those folks are terrorists first they came for the communists and i didn't speak out, because i wasn't a communist then they came for the homosexuals and i didn't speak out, because i wasn't a homosexual then they came for the jews and i didn't speak out, because i wasn't a jew... you get the point.... cheers fraggle " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > >I'm very sorry I accused you of smoking when you had kids, I was bang out of >order, I didn't know you quit before having them. >I do know of some vegan parents who smoke and it appals me that they are so >selfish. >I agree that people should have known that smoking was harmful long before >there was proof, it seems such an obvious thing to me that breathing in >smoke would cause illness, even without research that proves it. >Unfortunately it is still fairly normal to smoke, I see so many parents near >the school smoking after dropping off their kids. Some even have been >spotted smoking in their cars with the children in the car too. > >It's very hard to know when the authorities should get involved with >families, obviously sometimes they do have to protect children in danger, >but they seem to make so many mistakes, targeting kind families such as >vegans and pagans, accusing them of starving their kids and " satanic " child >abuse respectively, while other children who are truly abused are dying >needlessly. The SS have a long way to go before they get it right. They >really need to drop certain prejudices. >I don't think we can say it is no-one's business, some children really are >abused and killed by their own families. > >I'd be OK submitting to testing because I would see it as for the greater >good, even though it would be pointless for me as I don't take illicit drugs >and hardly ever drink alcohol either. I can't honestly compare a little drug >test to having my kids taken away, a drug test is such a little thing >really, so I would not make a fuss about it, because I believe that more >good than harm can come of having random testing. I guess I might feel a >little insulted that someone might think I was on drugs, but that would be >all. In the case of harassing families for raising children vegan and even >removing children without good reason, just because one other vegan family >out of hundreds has had a child die of malnutrition, I believe that more >harm than good is done by the SS indiscriminately picking on vegans as they >appear to be doing. > >In the end I have my views because of what I see as being acceptable for the >greater good, but hey who says we vegans have to always agree! > >Lesley > > > Heartwork [Heartwork] > 28 June 2002 09:20 > > Re: Pledge > > > Hi Lesley > >I wouldn't honestly mind random drug tests, I have nothing to fear, and >if it catches people who need help, I'm absolutely OK >with it. Where I >would object is if it seemed that certain people were being singled out and >tested the way they looked and >dressed, you should never judge a book by >its cover, I think. > > I have nothing to fear about being tested either as I have never tried >any drugs at all, but that is not the point. I don't do anything that is >illegal or immoral or unethical, but it doesn't mean that I should submit to >every test available to prove it. Why do you give so much power to other >people? > > >You used to smoke and you had kids, so was it right that you were >allowed to inflict your deadly habit on them? I actually wish >some agency >had had me removed to foster parents, because I was so ill from my mother >smoking around me, hopefully in a >few years parental smoking will be taken >as seriously as any other form of child abuse. I feel very let down by our >doctor for not >advising my mum to stop smoking as I was always ill with >chest problems until I left home as a young adult. > > I actually stopped smoking 29 years ago, before Peter was expected, and >I never inflicted my deadly habit on them at all. I have lived a fairly >long life and all the things I have done have not been done concurrently. >At that time it was fairly normal for people to smoke, and it was not >generally known to be harmful (although in retrospect everyone should have >known), and also most people were not so concerned or knowledgeable about >their health as they are now. > > >I feel very angry that social services and doctors would rather harass >innocent vegan parents when they need to be protecting >children in real >danger. > > This rather proves my point - it is no business of the schools/social >people. There have been a couple of incidents recently where children have >died because their parents have fed them inadequately, and these parents >have claimed to be vegan. You feed your children well, but you don't like >being targetted for what other parents do. Most youngsters and their >parents don't like to be targetted by drug tests because a few other people >take drugs. > > >I have more respect generally for teachers than I have for social >workers and doctors, because of a combination of my own and >other vegan >families experiences. I don't always trust authority by any means and am >especially aware of anti-vegan prejudice >by some professionals in agencies >in authority. > > I'm not a nationalist, I don't like the idea of a nationalist pledge any >more than I like the idea of a religious pledge. > Maybe a pledge to international peace would be more appropriate. > > I always think the trouble with a pledge is that you either intend >something, or you don't, and 'pledging' doesn't really make much difference >to the way you are going to behave. If it did, then there wouldn't be all >the divorces that there are, but yes, if there has to be a pledge at all >then I suppose international peace would be the best. > > Jo > > Lesley > > > Heartwork [Heartwork] > 27 June 2002 20:03 > > Re: Pledge > > > Lesley > > >The " skool " does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they >should be involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with >>behaviour that might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they >can hardly concentrate on learning and the parents might >be grateful to the >school for discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there >was such a problem for one of mine. > > Maybe things have changed since my kids were at school. I don't think >that schools are that good. I certainly would not consider going into >partnership with anyone (other than Colin) or any 'body' concerning my kids. > > When I was at school (yes, I know it was a long, long time ago), if >somebody did something wrong and the teacher didn't know who it was, then >everybody in the classs got a smack on the hand with a ruler. This was >wrong and unfair. > > If you have tests for drugs on random students just because a few may >be taking drugs - then this must be wrong and unfair. Do you not think that >youngsters should have rights? How would you like it if there were random >tests for drugs at your workplace, or your partner's workplace, or the local >cinema, or restaurant? > >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but >you do drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own >admission and don't >tell me that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some >smokers if you are drinking a >lot. > > I used to smoke (normal cigarettes). I do not smoke now, and I >refrain from alcohol. My honest opinion is that someone (no matter whether >they are 10, 20, etc. 100) will either take drugs or not, depending on their >character and their life experience. > > I do not like the idea of putting the school in a position of >authority over the lives of my children (or should I say - I didn't when >they were kids). Schools often cause more problems than they are worth. > > >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I >don't even believe in god, even if I did I would respect other >people's >right not to. If religious parents want to send their children to religious >schools that is their choice, but state schools >should be neutral on >religion, surely. > > Is it a good idea to say a pledge to your country? whether god is >mentioned or not. I believe in America that the schools should not have any >religion at all, which is why the pledge recital goes against the laws. > > Jo > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 Jo, i knew i luved ya!!! fraggle > I'm not a nationalist, I don't like the idea of a nationalist pledge any more than I like the idea of a religious pledge. > Maybe a pledge to international peace would be more appropriate. > > I always think the trouble with a pledge is that you either intend something, or you don't, and 'pledging' doesn't really make much difference to the way you are going to behave. If it did, then there wouldn't be all the divorces that there are, but yes, if there has to be a pledge at all then I suppose international peace would be the best. > > Jo > > Lesley > > > Heartwork [Heartwork] > 27 June 2002 20:03 > > Re: Pledge > > > Lesley > > >The " skool " does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they should be involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with >behaviour that might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they can hardly concentrate on learning and the parents might >be grateful to the school for discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there was such a problem for one of mine. > > Maybe things have changed since my kids were at school. I don't think that schools are that good. I certainly would not consider going into partnership with anyone (other than Colin) or any 'body' concerning my kids. > > When I was at school (yes, I know it was a long, long time ago), if somebody did something wrong and the teacher didn't know who it was, then everybody in the classs got a smack on the hand with a ruler. This was wrong and unfair. > > If you have tests for drugs on random students just because a few may be taking drugs - then this must be wrong and unfair. Do you not think that youngsters should have rights? How would you like it if there were random tests for drugs at your workplace, or your partner's workplace, or the local cinema, or restaurant? > >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but you do drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own >admission and don't tell me that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some smokers if you are drinking a >lot. > > I used to smoke (normal cigarettes). I do not smoke now, and I refrain from alcohol. My honest opinion is that someone (no matter whether they are 10, 20, etc. 100) will either take drugs or not, depending on their character and their life experience. > > I do not like the idea of putting the school in a position of authority over the lives of my children (or should I say - I didn't when they were kids). Schools often cause more problems than they are worth. > > >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I don't even believe in god, even if I did I would respect other >people's right not to. If religious parents want to send their children to religious schools that is their choice, but state schools >should be neutral on religion, surely. > > Is it a good idea to say a pledge to your country? whether god is mentioned or not. I believe in America that the schools should not have any religion at all, which is why the pledge recital goes against the laws. > > Jo > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 Hi Jojo Wise words. From when my children were toddlers I always believed what they said, and they have always made me proud. Jo > The more you treat a > child like they can't be trusted, the more reasons they will give you not to > trust them. > > But again, I've no children, so maybe, possibly (but probably not,) I might > feel differently if I did... > > --jojo > > > - > <EBbrewpunx > > Thursday, June 27, 2002 11:08 AM > RE: Pledge > > > > most of us take drugs everyday > > yer right, i drink, and many folks take aspirin, drink coffee..all are > drugs > > i knew you would reply because i've seen yer e-mails fer the last 2 yrs > > > > and yes, skools are a partnership..not a police state > > that will just make more kids drop out > > this isn't about drug testing 8 yr olds, this is snooping into the lives > of teens > > > > > > " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > > > > >How did you know I would have an opinion? > > > > > >The " skool " does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they should > be > > >involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with behaviour that > > >might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they can hardly > > >concentrate on learning and the parents might be grateful to the school > for > > >discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there was such > a > > >problem for one of mine. > > > > > >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but you do > > >drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own admission and don't tell me > > >that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some > smokers > > >if you are drinking a lot. > > > > > >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I don't > even > > >believe in god, even if I did I would respect other people's right not > to. > > >If religious parents want to send their children to religious schools > that > > >is their choice, but state schools should be neutral on religion, surely. > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx] > > > 27 June 2002 18:23 > > > > > > RE: Pledge > > > > > > > > > i knew lesley would post on this > > > > > > wot my 16 yr old does is between me and him/her, and not the skool > > > the skool has no business testing him/her for anything except education. > > > we are turning skools into police states more and more every single > > >day..corporate police states.. > > > if my kid does something, i need to take care of it, i am a parent, i am > > >responsible.... > > > drug laws are draconic and intrusive > > > and this is coming from someone who has never even smoke a cigarette > > > the pledge ruling is that a court here in the states made it illegal to > > >say the pledge in skool here because it has the phrase " under god " in > it, > > >which was added during the red scare McCarthyism bullcrap we went thru in > > >1954... > > > a lot of states had been making it mandatory to say the pledge of > > >allegiance in skool since last yr. > > > the court struck it down > > > it won't hold tho..it will get ovet turned and kids will have to stand > and > > >say the pledge all over again > > > of course, i don't have kids... > > > but, it still bugs the living bejeebeers out of me > > > fraggle > > > > > > > > > > > > " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >What is so terrible about random drug tests on kids anyway? If they are > > > >drug-free they have nothing to fear from this, and if they have been > > >given > > > >drugs, the problem can be discovered and they can be helped and > > >encouraged > > > >to tell on the people who gave it to them. Don't you people want kids > > > >protected? You were a parent of young children at one time yourself. > > >Maybe > > > >your kids were brought up to be sensible and never did drugs but not > all > > > >children are well-protected and well-informed by the parents as to why > > >they > > > >should say no, and even when the parents try really hard, it can still > > > >happen that the kids get bad influences from someone in school, hence > the > > > >need for someone other than the parents to look out for them in some > > >cases. > > > >I don't know much about curfews but I would not want kids to be out > late > > >at > > > >night, so no doubt it's for their own protection. I don't see the > > >objection > > > >personally if it's about protection. My son is 9 and my daughter is 6 > and > > > >have so far to my knowledge no opportunity for older kids to offer him > > > >anything, but I have heard of kids a lot younger being given drugs and > > >told > > > >they are sweeties! There was a story in the papers of a 5 year old who > > >was > > > >given LSD just a few days ago, by some older kids just playing in the > > >street > > > >near her house a few yards away from her mother who was clearly not an > > > >irresponsible parent. The child was crying and confused and they said > she > > > >could have died! Let's hope they catch whoever the older kids are who > did > > > >this. It scares me that this can happen because it shows they only have > > >to > > > >be out of your sight for 5 minutes and something bad can happen. I > think > > >it > > > >is good to have tough policies on drugs, as a parent I would support > it - > > > >unless of course the drug test was actually done using non-vegan > methods. > > >I > > > >know things like antibody testing and pregnancy testing are usually not > > > >vegan, so that would be the main question for me as well as the issue > of > > > >animal testing to develop such tests, but I can't see a problem with > the > > > >actual principle of drugs testing. > > > > > > > >And what is the Pledge ruling, something about having to polish the > > > >furniture!? > > > >If so I'm guilty, I'm hopeless at any sort of housework. > > > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > > > > Heartwork [Heartwork] > > > > 27 June 2002 17:13 > > > > > > > > Re: Pledge > > > > > > > > > > > > It gets worse day by day, doesn't it. I believe some town here in > > >England > > > > has just imposed a curfew on people under 16!!! > > > > > > > > Jo > > > > > > > > > on the otherside..the supreme court just ruled that public skools > can > > > >give > > > > random drug tests to students here > > > > > > > > > > ya know, i think i'll go turn my neighbor in as a traitor to the > > >state, > > > > and don my brown homeland security civilian patrol uniform.... > > > > > > > > > > fraggle > > > > > > > > > > " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Hi > > > > > > > > > > > >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? > Do > > > >you > > > > think it will be overturned? > > > > > > > > > > > >Jo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > > > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > > > >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to > > >- > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 Hi Lesley > I certainly would not be capable of home educating, and I am very grateful for the teachers and learning assistants. I think > teachers are so underrespected these days, and yet I they seemed to be respected more when they used to hit kids with rulers! I think you're mistaking respect for fear. The two are very different, and IMHO mutually exclusive! When I was at school (long after caning had been banned), I only respected one teacher - and he was the best teacher in the school. Unfortunately most of my teachers had an attitude that they automatically deserved respect because they were older than the children. As far as I am concerned, respect can only ever be earned. As Leo Tolstoy said: "Respect people for what they do, not for the position they hold". I believe that quote should be placed in every classroom to remind teachers that they are there to educate children, not to bully them. > That seems all back to front to me. It was bad when I was at school too, I went to a Grammar School where the headmistress > caned a girl badly and her parents went to the European Court of Human Rights over it and lost their case. I know this subject isn't humourous, but I can't help thinking of the Rowan Atkinson / Angus Deayton sketch: "yes, expelled"! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 Why, thank you Fraggle (blush, blush) :-) Jo > Jo, i knew i luved ya!!! > > fraggle > > I'm not a nationalist, I don't like the idea of a nationalist pledge any more than I like the idea of a religious pledge. > > Maybe a pledge to international peace would be more appropriate. > > > > I always think the trouble with a pledge is that you either intend something, or you don't, and 'pledging' doesn't really make much difference to the way you are going to behave. If it did, then there wouldn't be all the divorces that there are, but yes, if there has to be a pledge at all then I suppose international peace would be the best. > > > > Jo > > > > Lesley > > > > > > Heartwork [Heartwork] > > 27 June 2002 20:03 > > > > Re: Pledge > > > > > > Lesley > > > > >The " skool " does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they should be involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with >behaviour that might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they can hardly concentrate on learning and the parents might >be grateful to the school for discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there was such a problem for one of mine. > > > > Maybe things have changed since my kids were at school. I don't think that schools are that good. I certainly would not consider going into partnership with anyone (other than Colin) or any 'body' concerning my kids. > > > > When I was at school (yes, I know it was a long, long time ago), if somebody did something wrong and the teacher didn't know who it was, then everybody in the classs got a smack on the hand with a ruler. This was wrong and unfair. > > > > If you have tests for drugs on random students just because a few may be taking drugs - then this must be wrong and unfair. Do you not think that youngsters should have rights? How would you like it if there were random tests for drugs at your workplace, or your partner's workplace, or the local cinema, or restaurant? > > >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but you do drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own >admission and don't tell me that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some smokers if you are drinking a >lot. > > > > I used to smoke (normal cigarettes). I do not smoke now, and I refrain from alcohol. My honest opinion is that someone (no matter whether they are 10, 20, etc. 100) will either take drugs or not, depending on their character and their life experience. > > > > I do not like the idea of putting the school in a position of authority over the lives of my children (or should I say - I didn't when they were kids). Schools often cause more problems than they are worth. > > > > >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I don't even believe in god, even if I did I would respect other >people's right not to. If religious parents want to send their children to religious schools that is their choice, but state schools >should be neutral on religion, surely. > > > > Is it a good idea to say a pledge to your country? whether god is mentioned or not. I believe in America that the schools should not have any religion at all, which is why the pledge recital goes against the laws. > > > > Jo > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 But I do speak out if there is an injustice and I see not doing anything about the drug problem as an injustice! Obviously I don't think any more than you do that Greenpeace are terrorists. I haven't heard of Sierra Club, I guess they are some US eco group? I don't think we have 'em here. Lesley EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]28 June 2002 15:29 Subject: RE: Pledgefirst they drug test youits just a little thing, right, and you have nothing to worry about, because you don';t do drugsthen, they arrest people who don't wear seatbeltswell, they deserve it, because it is for their own goodthen anyone people who support the sierra club, greenpeace, etc are watched..well, we all know those folks are terroristsfirst they came for the communistsand i didn't speak out, because i wasn't a communistthen they came for the homosexualsand i didn't speak out, because i wasn't a homosexualthen they came for the jewsand i didn't speak out, because i wasn't a jew...you get the point....cheersfraggle"Lesley Dove" <Lesley wrote:>>I'm very sorry I accused you of smoking when you had kids, I was bang out of>order, I didn't know you quit before having them.>I do know of some vegan parents who smoke and it appals me that they are so>selfish.>I agree that people should have known that smoking was harmful long before>there was proof, it seems such an obvious thing to me that breathing in>smoke would cause illness, even without research that proves it.>Unfortunately it is still fairly normal to smoke, I see so many parents near>the school smoking after dropping off their kids. Some even have been>spotted smoking in their cars with the children in the car too.>>It's very hard to know when the authorities should get involved with>families, obviously sometimes they do have to protect children in danger,>but they seem to make so many mistakes, targeting kind families such as>vegans and pagans, accusing them of starving their kids and "satanic" child>abuse respectively, while other children who are truly abused are dying>needlessly. The SS have a long way to go before they get it right. They>really need to drop certain prejudices.>I don't think we can say it is no-one's business, some children really are>abused and killed by their own families.>>I'd be OK submitting to testing because I would see it as for the greater>good, even though it would be pointless for me as I don't take illicit drugs>and hardly ever drink alcohol either. I can't honestly compare a little drug>test to having my kids taken away, a drug test is such a little thing>really, so I would not make a fuss about it, because I believe that more>good than harm can come of having random testing. I guess I might feel a>little insulted that someone might think I was on drugs, but that would be>all. In the case of harassing families for raising children vegan and even>removing children without good reason, just because one other vegan family>out of hundreds has had a child die of malnutrition, I believe that more>harm than good is done by the SS indiscriminately picking on vegans as they>appear to be doing.>>In the end I have my views because of what I see as being acceptable for the>greater good, but hey who says we vegans have to always agree!>>Lesley>> > Heartwork [Heartwork]> 28 June 2002 09:20> > Re: Pledge>>> Hi Lesley> >I wouldn't honestly mind random drug tests, I have nothing to fear, and>if it catches people who need help, I'm absolutely OK >with it. Where I>would object is if it seemed that certain people were being singled out and>tested the way they looked and >dressed, you should never judge a book by>its cover, I think.>> I have nothing to fear about being tested either as I have never tried>any drugs at all, but that is not the point. I don't do anything that is>illegal or immoral or unethical, but it doesn't mean that I should submit to>every test available to prove it. Why do you give so much power to other>people?>> >You used to smoke and you had kids, so was it right that you were>allowed to inflict your deadly habit on them? I actually wish >some agency>had had me removed to foster parents, because I was so ill from my mother>smoking around me, hopefully in a >few years parental smoking will be taken>as seriously as any other form of child abuse. I feel very let down by our>doctor for not >advising my mum to stop smoking as I was always ill with>chest problems until I left home as a young adult.>> I actually stopped smoking 29 years ago, before Peter was expected, and>I never inflicted my deadly habit on them at all. I have lived a fairly>long life and all the things I have done have not been done concurrently.>At that time it was fairly normal for people to smoke, and it was not>generally known to be harmful (although in retrospect everyone should have>known), and also most people were not so concerned or knowledgeable about>their health as they are now.>> >I feel very angry that social services and doctors would rather harass>innocent vegan parents when they need to be protecting >children in real>danger.>> This rather proves my point - it is no business of the schools/social>people. There have been a couple of incidents recently where children have>died because their parents have fed them inadequately, and these parents>have claimed to be vegan. You feed your children well, but you don't like>being targetted for what other parents do. Most youngsters and their>parents don't like to be targetted by drug tests because a few other people>take drugs.>> >I have more respect generally for teachers than I have for social>workers and doctors, because of a combination of my own and >other vegan>families experiences. I don't always trust authority by any means and am>especially aware of anti-vegan prejudice >by some professionals in agencies>in authority.>> I'm not a nationalist, I don't like the idea of a nationalist pledge any>more than I like the idea of a religious pledge.> Maybe a pledge to international peace would be more appropriate.>> I always think the trouble with a pledge is that you either intend>something, or you don't, and 'pledging' doesn't really make much difference>to the way you are going to behave. If it did, then there wouldn't be all>the divorces that there are, but yes, if there has to be a pledge at all>then I suppose international peace would be the best.>> Jo>> Lesley>> > Heartwork [Heartwork]> 27 June 2002 20:03> > Re: Pledge>>> Lesley>> >The "skool" does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they>should be involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with>>behaviour that might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they>can hardly concentrate on learning and the parents might >be grateful to the>school for discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there>was such a problem for one of mine.>> Maybe things have changed since my kids were at school. I don't think>that schools are that good. I certainly would not consider going into>partnership with anyone (other than Colin) or any 'body' concerning my kids.>> When I was at school (yes, I know it was a long, long time ago), if>somebody did something wrong and the teacher didn't know who it was, then>everybody in the classs got a smack on the hand with a ruler. This was>wrong and unfair.>> If you have tests for drugs on random students just because a few may>be taking drugs - then this must be wrong and unfair. Do you not think that>youngsters should have rights? How would you like it if there were random>tests for drugs at your workplace, or your partner's workplace, or the local>cinema, or restaurant?> >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but>you do drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own >admission and don't>tell me that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some>smokers if you are drinking a >lot.>> I used to smoke (normal cigarettes). I do not smoke now, and I>refrain from alcohol. My honest opinion is that someone (no matter whether>they are 10, 20, etc. 100) will either take drugs or not, depending on their>character and their life experience.>> I do not like the idea of putting the school in a position of>authority over the lives of my children (or should I say - I didn't when>they were kids). Schools often cause more problems than they are worth.>> >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I>don't even believe in god, even if I did I would respect other >people's>right not to. If religious parents want to send their children to religious>schools that is their choice, but state schools >should be neutral on>religion, surely.>> Is it a good idea to say a pledge to your country? whether god is>mentioned or not. I believe in America that the schools should not have any>religion at all, which is why the pledge recital goes against the laws.>> Jo>>>> ---> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).> Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02>> To send an email to - >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 but, who and whom decides wot is a drug? why is smoking pot a crime, yet you can pop prozac all day long why is tylenol okily dokily, but heaven forfend if someone take mdma who decides? not to mention..here in the states there are drug compnay ads every 3 seconds nowadays its bullpucky and, if they wanna make me pee in a cup, i wanna at least see em drink it..i want my entertainment toooo fraggle " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > >But I do speak out if there is an injustice and I see not doing anything >about the drug problem as an injustice! > >Obviously I don't think any more than you do that Greenpeace are terrorists. >I haven't heard of Sierra Club, I guess they are some US eco group? I don't >think we have 'em here. > >Lesley > > > EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx] > 28 June 2002 15:29 > > RE: Pledge > > > > first they drug test you > its just a little thing, right, and you have nothing to worry about, >because you don';t do drugs > then, they arrest people who don't wear seatbelts > well, they deserve it, because it is for their own good > then anyone people who support the sierra club, greenpeace, etc are >watched..well, we all know those folks are terrorists > > > first they came for the communists > and i didn't speak out, because i wasn't a communist > then they came for the homosexuals > and i didn't speak out, because i wasn't a homosexual > then they came for the jews > and i didn't speak out, because i wasn't a jew... > > you get the point.... > cheers > fraggle > " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > >I'm very sorry I accused you of smoking when you had kids, I was bang out >of > >order, I didn't know you quit before having them. > >I do know of some vegan parents who smoke and it appals me that they are >so > >selfish. > >I agree that people should have known that smoking was harmful long >before > >there was proof, it seems such an obvious thing to me that breathing in > >smoke would cause illness, even without research that proves it. > >Unfortunately it is still fairly normal to smoke, I see so many parents >near > >the school smoking after dropping off their kids. Some even have been > >spotted smoking in their cars with the children in the car too. > > > >It's very hard to know when the authorities should get involved with > >families, obviously sometimes they do have to protect children in danger, > >but they seem to make so many mistakes, targeting kind families such as > >vegans and pagans, accusing them of starving their kids and " satanic " >child > >abuse respectively, while other children who are truly abused are dying > >needlessly. The SS have a long way to go before they get it right. They > >really need to drop certain prejudices. > >I don't think we can say it is no-one's business, some children really >are > >abused and killed by their own families. > > > >I'd be OK submitting to testing because I would see it as for the greater > >good, even though it would be pointless for me as I don't take illicit >drugs > >and hardly ever drink alcohol either. I can't honestly compare a little >drug > >test to having my kids taken away, a drug test is such a little thing > >really, so I would not make a fuss about it, because I believe that more > >good than harm can come of having random testing. I guess I might feel a > >little insulted that someone might think I was on drugs, but that would >be > >all. In the case of harassing families for raising children vegan and >even > >removing children without good reason, just because one other vegan >family > >out of hundreds has had a child die of malnutrition, I believe that more > >harm than good is done by the SS indiscriminately picking on vegans as >they > >appear to be doing. > > > >In the end I have my views because of what I see as being acceptable for >the > >greater good, but hey who says we vegans have to always agree! > > > >Lesley > > > > > > Heartwork [Heartwork] > > 28 June 2002 09:20 > > > > Re: Pledge > > > > > > Hi Lesley > > >I wouldn't honestly mind random drug tests, I have nothing to fear, >and > >if it catches people who need help, I'm absolutely OK >with it. Where I > >would object is if it seemed that certain people were being singled out >and > >tested the way they looked and >dressed, you should never judge a book by > >its cover, I think. > > > > I have nothing to fear about being tested either as I have never >tried > >any drugs at all, but that is not the point. I don't do anything that is > >illegal or immoral or unethical, but it doesn't mean that I should submit >to > >every test available to prove it. Why do you give so much power to other > >people? > > > > >You used to smoke and you had kids, so was it right that you were > >allowed to inflict your deadly habit on them? I actually wish >some >agency > >had had me removed to foster parents, because I was so ill from my mother > >smoking around me, hopefully in a >few years parental smoking will be >taken > >as seriously as any other form of child abuse. I feel very let down by >our > >doctor for not >advising my mum to stop smoking as I was always ill with > >chest problems until I left home as a young adult. > > > > I actually stopped smoking 29 years ago, before Peter was expected, >and > >I never inflicted my deadly habit on them at all. I have lived a fairly > >long life and all the things I have done have not been done concurrently. > >At that time it was fairly normal for people to smoke, and it was not > >generally known to be harmful (although in retrospect everyone should >have > >known), and also most people were not so concerned or knowledgeable about > >their health as they are now. > > > > >I feel very angry that social services and doctors would rather >harass > >innocent vegan parents when they need to be protecting >children in real > >danger. > > > > This rather proves my point - it is no business of the schools/social > >people. There have been a couple of incidents recently where children >have > >died because their parents have fed them inadequately, and these parents > >have claimed to be vegan. You feed your children well, but you don't >like > >being targetted for what other parents do. Most youngsters and their > >parents don't like to be targetted by drug tests because a few other >people > >take drugs. > > > > >I have more respect generally for teachers than I have for social > >workers and doctors, because of a combination of my own and >other vegan > >families experiences. I don't always trust authority by any means and am > >especially aware of anti-vegan prejudice >by some professionals in >agencies > >in authority. > > > > I'm not a nationalist, I don't like the idea of a nationalist pledge >any > >more than I like the idea of a religious pledge. > > Maybe a pledge to international peace would be more appropriate. > > > > I always think the trouble with a pledge is that you either intend > >something, or you don't, and 'pledging' doesn't really make much >difference > >to the way you are going to behave. If it did, then there wouldn't be >all > >the divorces that there are, but yes, if there has to be a pledge at all > >then I suppose international peace would be the best. > > > > Jo > > > > Lesley > > > > > > Heartwork [Heartwork] > > 27 June 2002 20:03 > > > > Re: Pledge > > > > > > Lesley > > > > >The " skool " does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they > >should be involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with > >>behaviour that might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs >they > >can hardly concentrate on learning and the parents might >be grateful to >the > >school for discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if >there > >was such a problem for one of mine. > > > > Maybe things have changed since my kids were at school. I don't >think > >that schools are that good. I certainly would not consider going into > >partnership with anyone (other than Colin) or any 'body' concerning my >kids. > > > > When I was at school (yes, I know it was a long, long time ago), if > >somebody did something wrong and the teacher didn't know who it was, then > >everybody in the classs got a smack on the hand with a ruler. This was > >wrong and unfair. > > > > If you have tests for drugs on random students just because a few >may > >be taking drugs - then this must be wrong and unfair. Do you not think >that > >youngsters should have rights? How would you like it if there were >random > >tests for drugs at your workplace, or your partner's workplace, or the >local > >cinema, or restaurant? > > >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) >but > >you do drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own >admission and don't > >tell me that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than >some > >smokers if you are drinking a >lot. > > > > I used to smoke (normal cigarettes). I do not smoke now, and I > >refrain from alcohol. My honest opinion is that someone (no matter >whether > >they are 10, 20, etc. 100) will either take drugs or not, depending on >their > >character and their life experience. > > > > I do not like the idea of putting the school in a position of > >authority over the lives of my children (or should I say - I didn't when > >they were kids). Schools often cause more problems than they are worth. > > > > >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I > >don't even believe in god, even if I did I would respect other >people's > >right not to. If religious parents want to send their children to >religious > >schools that is their choice, but state schools >should be neutral on > >religion, surely. > > > > Is it a good idea to say a pledge to your country? whether god is > >mentioned or not. I believe in America that the schools should not have >any > >religion at all, which is why the pledge recital goes against the laws. > > > > Jo > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > > > > To send an email to >- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2002 Report Share Posted June 28, 2002 - " Heartwork " <Heartwork Friday, June 28, 2002 8:39 AM Re: Pledge > Hi Jojo > > Wise words. From when my children were toddlers I always believed what they > said, and they have always made me proud. > > Jo ! Yay! It was the same way with me and my mother. I didn't have any reason to lie to her. I usually made the right choices and when I didn't I could tell her and she could help me. Kids should be able to make some bad decisions every now and again. That's how you learn! --jojo > > > The more you treat a > > child like they can't be trusted, the more reasons they will give you not > to > > trust them. > > > > But again, I've no children, so maybe, possibly (but probably not,) I > might > > feel differently if I did... > > > > --jojo > > > > > > - > > <EBbrewpunx > > > > Thursday, June 27, 2002 11:08 AM > > RE: Pledge > > > > > > > most of us take drugs everyday > > > yer right, i drink, and many folks take aspirin, drink coffee..all are > > drugs > > > i knew you would reply because i've seen yer e-mails fer the last 2 yrs > > > > > > and yes, skools are a partnership..not a police state > > > that will just make more kids drop out > > > this isn't about drug testing 8 yr olds, this is snooping into the lives > > of teens > > > > > > > > > " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >How did you know I would have an opinion? > > > > > > > >The " skool " does a lot for our kids and it is reasonable that they > should > > be > > > >involved in partnership with the parents in dealing with behaviour that > > > >might affect the kids education. If kids are on drugs they can hardly > > > >concentrate on learning and the parents might be grateful to the school > > for > > > >discovering there is a problem. I'd be grateful to know if there was > such > > a > > > >problem for one of mine. > > > > > > > >You may not have ever smoked (good for you, it's a foul habit) but you > do > > > >drink copious amounts of alcohol by your own admission and don't tell > me > > > >that is not a drug too. You could be harming yourself more than some > > smokers > > > >if you are drinking a lot. > > > > > > > >I certainly don't agree with making kids say a pledge to god. I don't > > even > > > >believe in god, even if I did I would respect other people's right not > > to. > > > >If religious parents want to send their children to religious schools > > that > > > >is their choice, but state schools should be neutral on religion, > surely. > > > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > > > > EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx] > > > > 27 June 2002 18:23 > > > > > > > > RE: Pledge > > > > > > > > > > > > i knew lesley would post on this > > > > > > > > wot my 16 yr old does is between me and him/her, and not the skool > > > > the skool has no business testing him/her for anything except > education. > > > > we are turning skools into police states more and more every single > > > >day..corporate police states.. > > > > if my kid does something, i need to take care of it, i am a parent, i > am > > > >responsible.... > > > > drug laws are draconic and intrusive > > > > and this is coming from someone who has never even smoke a cigarette > > > > the pledge ruling is that a court here in the states made it illegal > to > > > >say the pledge in skool here because it has the phrase " under god " in > > it, > > > >which was added during the red scare McCarthyism bullcrap we went thru > in > > > >1954... > > > > a lot of states had been making it mandatory to say the pledge of > > > >allegiance in skool since last yr. > > > > the court struck it down > > > > it won't hold tho..it will get ovet turned and kids will have to stand > > and > > > >say the pledge all over again > > > > of course, i don't have kids... > > > > but, it still bugs the living bejeebeers out of me > > > > fraggle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >What is so terrible about random drug tests on kids anyway? If they > are > > > > >drug-free they have nothing to fear from this, and if they have been > > > >given > > > > >drugs, the problem can be discovered and they can be helped and > > > >encouraged > > > > >to tell on the people who gave it to them. Don't you people want kids > > > > >protected? You were a parent of young children at one time yourself. > > > >Maybe > > > > >your kids were brought up to be sensible and never did drugs but not > > all > > > > >children are well-protected and well-informed by the parents as to > why > > > >they > > > > >should say no, and even when the parents try really hard, it can > still > > > > >happen that the kids get bad influences from someone in school, hence > > the > > > > >need for someone other than the parents to look out for them in some > > > >cases. > > > > >I don't know much about curfews but I would not want kids to be out > > late > > > >at > > > > >night, so no doubt it's for their own protection. I don't see the > > > >objection > > > > >personally if it's about protection. My son is 9 and my daughter is 6 > > and > > > > >have so far to my knowledge no opportunity for older kids to offer > him > > > > >anything, but I have heard of kids a lot younger being given drugs > and > > > >told > > > > >they are sweeties! There was a story in the papers of a 5 year old > who > > > >was > > > > >given LSD just a few days ago, by some older kids just playing in the > > > >street > > > > >near her house a few yards away from her mother who was clearly not > an > > > > >irresponsible parent. The child was crying and confused and they said > > she > > > > >could have died! Let's hope they catch whoever the older kids are who > > did > > > > >this. It scares me that this can happen because it shows they only > have > > > >to > > > > >be out of your sight for 5 minutes and something bad can happen. I > > think > > > >it > > > > >is good to have tough policies on drugs, as a parent I would support > > it - > > > > >unless of course the drug test was actually done using non-vegan > > methods. > > > >I > > > > >know things like antibody testing and pregnancy testing are usually > not > > > > >vegan, so that would be the main question for me as well as the issue > > of > > > > >animal testing to develop such tests, but I can't see a problem with > > the > > > > >actual principle of drugs testing. > > > > > > > > > >And what is the Pledge ruling, something about having to polish the > > > > >furniture!? > > > > >If so I'm guilty, I'm hopeless at any sort of housework. > > > > > > > > > >Lesley > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heartwork [Heartwork] > > > > > 27 June 2002 17:13 > > > > > > > > > > Re: Pledge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gets worse day by day, doesn't it. I believe some town here in > > > >England > > > > > has just imposed a curfew on people under 16!!! > > > > > > > > > > Jo > > > > > > > > > > > on the otherside..the supreme court just ruled that public skools > > can > > > > >give > > > > > random drug tests to students here > > > > > > > > > > > > ya know, i think i'll go turn my neighbor in as a traitor to the > > > >state, > > > > > and don my brown homeland security civilian patrol uniform.... > > > > > > > > > > > > fraggle > > > > > > > > > > > > " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > >Hi > > > > > > > > > > > > > >What do the Americans on this list think about the Pledge ruling? > > Do > > > > >you > > > > > think it will be overturned? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Jo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > > > > > > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > > > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > > > > >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release 20/06/02 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to > > > >- > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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