opinons

[Guest guest]

I need your personal opinions... I*ve just bid on some Doc Martens on

ebay... they*re used, and I think that because I am not directly

supporting the company me buying these used leather boots is " ok " .

Would anyone agree? everyone is calling me a hypocrite.. but the

people who are calling me this eat meat... I realize it*s the same

situation as my meat-eating friend buying me a jug of milk and me

drinking it because I did not purchase it. I am against freeganism...

but what I*m trying to figure out is whether purchasing used leather

is ok if you are not supporting the economy or if you*ve owned the

leather before veganism. thanks.

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't buy or wear leather again. After I went vegetarian (but before I became vegan) I did buy some leather boots but gave them away after wearing them twice; made me feel too guilty wearing them.

Got some purple DM's from Vegetarian Shoes for Christmas last year and one of the first times I wore them I met some new people. When I explained my diet they said "but you wear leather..." & pointed at my boots. I explained. I wouldn't feel able to justify it to myself, let alone anyone else.

 

Viv

 

 

gutterglitter187 [gutterglitter187]Wednesday, April 17, 2002 4:23 AM Subject: opinonsI need your personal opinions... I*ve just bid on some Doc Martens on ebay... they*re used, and I think that because I am not directly supporting the company me buying these used leather boots is "ok". Would anyone agree? everyone is calling me a hypocrite.. but the people who are calling me this eat meat... I realize it*s the same situation as my meat-eating friend buying me a jug of milk and me drinking it because I did not purchase it. I am against freeganism... but what I*m trying to figure out is whether purchasing used leather is ok if you are not supporting the economy or if you*ve owned the leather before veganism. thanks.

[Guest guest]

wot i think is most important, after the day is done, and you've thought all

about it, is how YOU feel about it

everyone is vegan er veggie fer different reasons, with different goals and

doing it at different levels

if you want to buy used docs, and you can make reasons for yerself why its

ok, well, then you have made yer decision, haven't ya!!

me personally, i won't buy anymore leather, be it used er not...just on

principle

do i have some..yeah

*hides face*

and i make the excuse that its old and i've had it have a billion years and

and and....

its all in where ya want to make yer stands and all!!

now, if someone wants to buy me a non-leather jacket fer may day

*big cheesy grin*

fraggle

[Guest guest]

As I am a meat eater (I only joined the group to give the warning

about milk in cigarrettes and maybe grab a few recipes) I'm not

positive my opinion on the subject is either valid or welcome in this

forum, but I figure if it's not, the moderator can simply delete the

post, so here it goes...

 

I myself have been often accused of hypocrisy because I don't believe

in using animals as entertainment, victims of scientific study, or

raised specifically for their skin. I also disagree with how the

majority of food animals are currently raised. I still however will

wear some skins and eat animals. The reason I do not consider this

hypocritical is because I consider humans and animals to be equals.

Therefore, I believe that it is no more immoral for a human to eat our

fellow creatures than for any other homnivores or carnivores, so long

as one sticks to free range and hunted animals, and do not waste

anything (so you do not need to take more lives than neccesary).

Also, I am convinced that plants, while lacking what we think of as a

mind and nervous system, still have feelings, and suffer just as much

as an animal when eaten. (Please, none of you take this as me

accusing vegans of being hypocrites. I understand the many reasons

people make the decision you all have, and deeply respect them)

 

Okay, now how does this relate to your plight? You did nothing to

contribute to the death of this animal. Since it's leather, it likely

died to be food, so to my personal morals, not using the skin would be

a disrespectful waste. Therefore I see nothing wrong with buying them

new. I realize that many of you still cannot condone this practice,

and most of my vegan friends would be in agreement with you over this.

However, one day I did notice one of my vegan friends wearing a

leather jacket he purchased at a pawn shop. When I asked him about

it, he said that he felt, as you do, that because he was not

contributing to the animals death, that it was not immoral. He also

pointed out to me that he knew many vegans that did not bother

checking to see how many of their non-animal clothing items were made.

Most " animal friendly " clothing items are actually far more cruel to

the planet and our fellow creatures than skins, due to the massive

pollution and use of toxic chemicals in the production of textiles.

(once again, I do not feel these people are hypocrites, just

under-informed on the topic)

 

Ultimately, you must be the one to decide where your morals lead you.

While listening to the opinions of others can be valuable for

obtaining information to help you make your decision, utimately, YOU

are the one that must live by the decision. You may read my letter

and decide that it is okay to buy the shoes, or you may feel that even

if you talk yourself into buying them, every time you look at your

feet you will think of the animal that died to make them.

 

To close, I feel, as sad as it may be, there is no such thing as a

living thing (plant, animal, human, or fungii) that can survive

without the suffering or ending of another life. As sentient

creatures, I believe humans have a responsibility to use our ample

brains to find a way to limit, to the best of our abilities, the

suffering we inflict on others. However, until you die, there is no

way to avoid the fact that other living beings WILL suffer for your

benefit. The trick is to decide what kind of suffering you can live

with inflicting.

[Guest guest]

I do feel that your post was obviously well thought out, and you made

some fantastic points. I just wish to respectfully disagree with on

analogy you made. I do not believe that a vegan buying used leather

is morally equivilant to a vegan drinking milk if somebody else paid

for it. If one buys used leather, it seems to me that the product is

being used to its fullest extent. Therefore, you are avoiding waste

and being kinder to the planet. Also, you are not supporting those

who killed the cow. However, If a vegan drinks milk that was paid for

by somebody else, the company that is keeping the dairy cow is still

profiting. Also, the milk the vegan consumed means that yet another

gallon has to be pulled from the udder for a non-vegan that would have

otherwise used the milk the vegan drank.

 

Of course, one might say that the used boots could have gone to a

non-vegan, to avoid them purchasing a new pair. Unfortunately, the

sad truth is, most people, (at least here in America, I don't know

where y'all are) are simply to selfish and image obsessed to purchase

used clothing, except for the rare years when " thrift-shop vogue " is

popular.

[Guest guest]

I personally wouldn't wear leather, new or used, but think that you

should do what makes you comfortable.

 

However, I had one or two things to point out. When you ask " whether

purchasing used leather is ok if you are not supporting the economy " ,

you're forgetting that you buying these used products may mean that

someone else who wanted the same pair will go out and buy some new

ones, increasing the demand for the product, which would support its

production.

Furthermore, you'll be compensating the seller, who may turn around

and go buy him/herself a brand new pair of leather boots, with

similar consequences as in the example above.

So purchasing used products is very much part of the economy as

well. Unless you're saving these boot from a trip to the dump, you

buying them is going to have an impact. You'll also have an impact

on those who see you with them, friends and strangers, and through

your conversations with other people as to your rationale for wearing

them.

 

Every action brings reaction, in some form or another, so it's

something to think about.

 

 

, " gutterglitter187 " <gutterglitter187>

wrote:

> I need your personal opinions... I*ve just bid on some Doc Martens

on

> ebay... they*re used, and I think that because I am not directly

> supporting the company me buying these used leather boots is " ok " .

> Would anyone agree? everyone is calling me a hypocrite.. but the

> people who are calling me this eat meat... I realize it*s the same

> situation as my meat-eating friend buying me a jug of milk and me

> drinking it because I did not purchase it. I am against

freeganism...

> but what I*m trying to figure out is whether purchasing used

leather

> is ok if you are not supporting the economy or if you*ve owned the

> leather before veganism. thanks.

[Guest guest]

You are a very wise vegan girl, vegan_girl I hadn't ever thought of buying used stuff quite like that. I just wanted to add, though how many cool shoes are out there (to fit any budget) that are non-leather. I just got a kick-ass pair of platformed mary janes -- *4 1/2" inches of pure goodness* -- from Hot Topic. Unfortunately, me being a dumbass, I ordered the wrong size and now have to wait to get a new pair. But I tried them on and they are so beautiful and I was so tall! A towering 5' 6 1/2"! Woo-hoo!

 

And gutterglitter, I'm not perfect either, the shoes I got (new) aren't certified "vegan". God only knows what's in the glue that holds them together and I don't know how or where they were made. I also tend to lean towards freeganism, too, truth be told, when drastic times call for drastic measures (i.e. my belly is grumbling and there is nothing else to eat.) Just do what you are comfortable with. You only live once and I doubt you're going to Hell for buying a pair of used Docs. If you win the bid, enjoy them. If not, then it was a learning experience and you have a whole lot more to think about next time

 

--jojo

 

-

vegan_girl_1975

Thursday, April 18, 2002 4:34 PM

Re: opinons

I personally wouldn't wear leather, new or used, but think that you should do what makes you comfortable.However, I had one or two things to point out. When you ask "whether purchasing used leather is ok if you are not supporting the economy", you're forgetting that you buying these used products may mean that someone else who wanted the same pair will go out and buy some new ones, increasing the demand for the product, which would support its production. Furthermore, you'll be compensating the seller, who may turn around and go buy him/herself a brand new pair of leather boots, with similar consequences as in the example above. So purchasing used products is very much part of the economy as well. Unless you're saving these boot from a trip to the dump, you buying them is going to have an impact. You'll also have an impact on those who see you with them, friends and strangers, and through your conversations with other people as to your rationale for wearing them.Every action brings reaction, in some form or another, so it's something to think about. , "gutterglitter187" <gutterglitter187> wrote:> I need your personal opinions... I*ve just bid on some Doc Martens on > ebay... they*re used, and I think that because I am not directly > supporting the company me buying these used leather boots is "ok". > Would anyone agree? everyone is calling me a hypocrite.. but the > people who are calling me this eat meat... I realize it*s the same > situation as my meat-eating friend buying me a jug of milk and me > drinking it because I did not purchase it. I am against freeganism... > but what I*m trying to figure out is whether purchasing used leather > is ok if you are not supporting the economy or if you*ve owned the > leather before veganism. thanks.To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Jezebel

 

I have a question for you - firstly, you said that.....

 

> (so you do not need to take more lives than neccesary).

 

Then....

 

> Also, I am convinced that plants, while lacking what we think of as a

> mind and nervous system, still have feelings, and suffer just as much

> as an animal when eaten.

 

So, my question....considering that an animal has to eat ten units of

vegetable protein to produce one unit of animal protein, by eating meat are

you not actually causing 11 times as much suffering as necessary (on the

understanding that animals are specifically bred in large numbers for food,

and would therefore not be in existence to eat the plants if the meat

industry didn't exist)?

 

> Since it's leather, it likely

> died to be food, so to my personal morals, not using the skin would be

> a disrespectful waste.

 

This is a common mistake - chances are that the animal was bred for leather,

not food. Unfortunately, the idea that leather, dairy, etc. are by-products

of the meat industry is a complete myth.

 

> Most " animal friendly " clothing items are actually far more cruel to

> the planet and our fellow creatures than skins, due to the massive

> pollution and use of toxic chemicals in the production of textiles.

 

Umm - do you have any idea of the extent of harmful chemicals used in the

tanning process? In fact, the production of leather is one of the most

environmentally harmful clothes making processes!

 

> To close, I feel, as sad as it may be, there is no such thing as a

> living thing (plant, animal, human, or fungii) that can survive

> without the suffering or ending of another life. As sentient

> creatures, I believe humans have a responsibility to use our ample

> brains to find a way to limit, to the best of our abilities, the

> suffering we inflict on others. However, until you die, there is no

> way to avoid the fact that other living beings WILL suffer for your

> benefit. The trick is to decide what kind of suffering you can live

> with inflicting.

 

I see what you are saying, and agree completely with the ethic. Yes - we do

all cause a certain amount of harm - however (and I am not suggesting that

you are using the argument in this way, but some people do) - the fact that

we do cause harm by living is not a reason to not strive to avoid doing harm

wherever possible. I would personally like to amend your final sentence, and

put it this way...the trick is to decide what kind of suffering *others* can

live with you afflicting! :-)

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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[Guest guest]

The reason I do not consider this

>hypocritical  is because I consider humans and animals to be equals.

>Therefore, I believe that it is no more immoral for a human to eat our

>fellow creatures than for any other homnivores or carnivores, so long

>as one sticks to free range and hunted animals, and do not waste

>anything (so you do not need to take more lives than neccesary).  

 

really

*raises eyebrow*

so, would you dine on the flesh of yer neighbor? or, how about i randomly

enslave some family down the street, and proclaim to one and all " thou shall

thine on the flesh of the Johnson's "

??? well..yer the one that said that humans and animals were equal...

as for leather vs plastic vs wotever....buying leather only encourages more

death, more leather production, etc...if people stopped buying leather, there

would be less cows to kill in the long run...plan and simple..

and, while buying some polyurethane shoe can be horrid for the environment, how

does that stack up to the amount of water is need to raise one cow..to butcher

one cow?

there are no easy answer(well, maybe hemp is better er something)(but, hemp

boots don't survive motorcycles very well....) we can only make the most

informed choices we can

yer turn

fraggle

 

 

 

>Okay, now how does this relate to your plight?  You did nothing to

>contribute to the death of this animal.  Since it's leather, it likely

>died to be food, so to my personal morals, not using the skin would be

>a disrespectful waste. Therefore I see nothing wrong with buying them

>new.  I realize that many of you still cannot condone this practice,

>and most of my vegan friends would be in agreement with you over this.

> However, one day I did notice one of my vegan friends wearing a

>leather jacket he purchased at a pawn shop.  When I asked him about

>it, he said that he felt, as you do, that because he was not

>contributing to the animals death, that it was not immoral.  He also

>pointed out to me that he knew many vegans that did not bother

>checking to see how many of their non-animal clothing items were made.

>Most " animal friendly " clothing items are actually far more cruel to

>the planet and our fellow creatures than skins, due to the massive

>pollution and use of toxic chemicals in the production of textiles.  

>(once again, I do not feel these people are hypocrites, just

>under-informed on the topic)

>

>Ultimately, you must be the one to decide where your morals lead you.

> While listening to the opinions of others can be valuable for

>obtaining information to help you make your decision, utimately, YOU

>are the one that must live by the decision.  You may read my letter

>and decide that it is okay to buy the shoes, or you may feel that even

>if you talk yourself into buying them, every time you look at your

>feet you will think of the animal that died to make them.

>

>To close, I feel, as sad as it may be, there is no such thing as a

>living thing (plant, animal, human, or fungii) that can survive

>without the suffering or ending of another life.  As sentient

>creatures, I believe humans have a responsibility to use our ample

>brains to find a way to limit, to the best of our abilities, the

>suffering we inflict on others.  However, until you die, there is no

>way to avoid the fact that other living beings WILL suffer for your

>benefit.  The trick is to decide what kind of suffering you can live

>with inflicting.

>

>

>

>

>To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jezebel

 

> If one buys used leather, it seems to me that the product is

> being used to its fullest extent. Therefore, you are avoiding waste

> and being kinder to the planet. Also, you are not supporting those

> who killed the cow. However, If a vegan drinks milk that was paid for

> by somebody else, the company that is keeping the dairy cow is still

> profiting. Also, the milk the vegan consumed means that yet another

> gallon has to be pulled from the udder for a non-vegan that would have

> otherwise used the milk the vegan drank.

 

Considering what you have said above, I am more convinced by the analogy

than I was before - let me explain...

 

When a vegan buys used leather, they are removing it from the market place,

so that others who would have purchased that same product will now have to

find something else to buy instead. Now, if that person is not vegan, they

aren't going to necessarily have any ethical issues with going out and

buying a new leather product - therefore, the action of purchasing used

leather actually does (albeit removed from the initial purchase) support the

leather industry.

 

> Of course, one might say that the used boots could have gone to a

> non-vegan, to avoid them purchasing a new pair. Unfortunately, the

> sad truth is, most people, (at least here in America, I don't know

> where y'all are) are simply to selfish and image obsessed to purchase

> used clothing, except for the rare years when " thrift-shop vogue " is

> popular.

 

Oops - I should have read on before writing all that. However, surely if

what you say is true, then the people who would buy 2nd hand leather for

anything other than ethical reasons, are actually unlikely to be wealthy

enough to purchase new products. Therefore, if vegans buy up all the 2nd

hand leather products, surely that is having a doubly bad effect - in that

it removes the 2nd hand leather from the market (see above arguments), *and*

that it is penalising someone who is in a low-income bracket who will now

have to pay more for their clothes!

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Jezebel,

 

On Thu Apr 18, 2002, jezebel_mag wrote:

<snip>

> I still however will wear some skins and eat animals. The reason I

> do not consider this hypocritical is because I consider humans and

> animals to be equals. Therefore, I believe that it is no more

> immoral for a human to eat our fellow creatures than for any other

> homnivores or carnivores, so long as one sticks to free range and

> hunted animals, and do not waste anything (so you do not need to

> take more lives than neccesary).

<snip>

 

Given that humans and animals are equal, would it also be ethically ok

to wear human skins or eat human flesh? So long as we stick to free

range and hunted humans, and do not waste anything (so you do not need

to take more lives than neccesary).

 

I don't know how other people feel about this, but it seems to me to

be inconsistent to accept the use of dead animals but not dead humans,

if they are considered to be equal.

 

Joel.

[Guest guest]

My opinion is that animal products/animal testing in some form or another

are almost inescapable (if you like taking the bus or take anti-biotics,

cold medicine, etc.). Having said that, I think it's important to try.

 

From a " rights " perspective, wearing leather is (or is like) wearing someone

else's skin around (for an expansion on this, Peter Singer is probably the

place to start).

 

From an anti-sexist vegan perspective, wearing leather (like eating meat)

reinforces patriarchal mythologies (cf. Carol Addams _Sexual Politics of

Meat_) that harm women, men, children, animals, the environment, etc.

 

As a marxist, I think that the exchange of $$ for leather ultimately drives

the meat industry one way or another while diminishing the economic

viability of a vegan alternative.

 

So, I say, if there's any " ewwwww " factor there at all for you for any of

these reasons, let it be your ethical guide. If not, then not.

 

 

> " vegan_girl_1975 " <vegan1975

>

>

> Re: opinons

>Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:34:30 -0000

>

>I personally wouldn't wear leather, new or used, but think that you

>should do what makes you comfortable.

>

>However, I had one or two things to point out. When you ask " whether

>purchasing used leather is ok if you are not supporting the economy " ,

>you're forgetting that you buying these used products may mean that

>someone else who wanted the same pair will go out and buy some new

>ones, increasing the demand for the product, which would support its

>production.

>Furthermore, you'll be compensating the seller, who may turn around

>and go buy him/herself a brand new pair of leather boots, with

>similar consequences as in the example above.

>So purchasing used products is very much part of the economy as

>well. Unless you're saving these boot from a trip to the dump, you

>buying them is going to have an impact. You'll also have an impact

>on those who see you with them, friends and strangers, and through

>your conversations with other people as to your rationale for wearing

>them.

>

>Every action brings reaction, in some form or another, so it's

>something to think about.

>

>

>, " gutterglitter187 " <gutterglitter187>

>wrote:

> > I need your personal opinions... I*ve just bid on some Doc Martens

>on

> > ebay... they*re used, and I think that because I am not directly

> > supporting the company me buying these used leather boots is " ok " .

> > Would anyone agree? everyone is calling me a hypocrite.. but the

> > people who are calling me this eat meat... I realize it*s the same

> > situation as my meat-eating friend buying me a jug of milk and me

> > drinking it because I did not purchase it. I am against

>freeganism...

> > but what I*m trying to figure out is whether purchasing used

>leather

> > is ok if you are not supporting the economy or if you*ve owned the

> > leather before veganism. thanks.

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Jezebel wrote: " Unfortunately, the sad truth is, most people, (at

least here in America, I don't know where y'all are) are simply to

selfish and image obsessed to purchase used clothing, except for the

rare years when " thrift-shop vogue " is popular. "

 

Well, out of my entire wardrobe, which is somewhat extensive, the

stuff that often gets the most compliments, is what i got at a second

hand store. That either means that the original owners had much

better taste than i do, - or - that you can get really good stuff

second hand, and it's much cheaper, so it just makes sense. In my

city, those stores are always packed, and socio-economic factors

don't play a major part in the clientele (i.e., it's people from

every " class " that shop there).

 

, " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote:

> Hi Jezebel

>

> > If one buys used leather, it seems to me that the product is

> > being used to its fullest extent. Therefore, you are avoiding

waste

> > and being kinder to the planet. Also, you are not supporting

those

> > who killed the cow. However, If a vegan drinks milk that was paid

for

> > by somebody else, the company that is keeping the dairy cow is

still

> > profiting. Also, the milk the vegan consumed means that yet

another

> > gallon has to be pulled from the udder for a non-vegan that would

have

> > otherwise used the milk the vegan drank.

>

> Considering what you have said above, I am more convinced by the

analogy

> than I was before - let me explain...

>

> When a vegan buys used leather, they are removing it from the

market place,

> so that others who would have purchased that same product will now

have to

> find something else to buy instead. Now, if that person is not

vegan, they

> aren't going to necessarily have any ethical issues with going out

and

> buying a new leather product - therefore, the action of purchasing

used

> leather actually does (albeit removed from the initial purchase)

support the

> leather industry.

>

> > Of course, one might say that the used boots could have gone to a

> > non-vegan, to avoid them purchasing a new pair. Unfortunately,

the

> > sad truth is, most people, (at least here in America, I don't know

> > where y'all are) are simply to selfish and image obsessed to

purchase

> > used clothing, except for the rare years when " thrift-shop vogue "

is

> > popular.

>

> Oops - I should have read on before writing all that. However,

surely if

> what you say is true, then the people who would buy 2nd hand

leather for

> anything other than ethical reasons, are actually unlikely to be

wealthy

> enough to purchase new products. Therefore, if vegans buy up all

the 2nd

> hand leather products, surely that is having a doubly bad effect -

in that

> it removes the 2nd hand leather from the market (see above

arguments), *and*

> that it is penalising someone who is in a low-income bracket who

will now

> have to pay more for their clothes!

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

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> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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[Guest guest]

I agree with you absolutely. Morally it is the same. However, the

idea you suggest is something that humans have been doing since we

walked the planet. Cannibalism, and use of human body parts for

practical reasons has existed since the beginning of our species.

 

The primary reasons for cannibalism can vary from culture to

culture. Some did it to keep from starving, others to consume the

powers of their enemies. Others did it out of compassion, they would

rather know their dead loved ones lived in themselves, instead of

rotting. Here's an interesting fact they don't teach in history

class... Cannibalism was WIDELY practiced in western culture as late

as the early 19th century. For centuries, it was popular all over

Europe to consume the bodies of condemned criminals, and later,

egyption mummies, as medicine. At public executions, children would

rush under the gallows to catch blood in bowls to drink.

 

Now your probably thinking, " OMG, this girl is some sort of

cannibal! " Not at all. I find the idea personally repulsive. Is this

hypocritical based on my statement that humans and animals are equals?

Not one whit, and there are two reasons for this. In most species of

mammals, including humans, cannibalism can cause hideous disease.

This is plainly evident by the prevalence of " Khudzo " , a brain rotting

disease decimating New Guinnea tribes that still practice illeagal

cannibalism. Also, as this is a vegan room, I'm sure you all know one

of the primary reasons mad-cow disease (the bovine version of the same

disease) has devestated Europe is because they habitually mixed ground

cow parts into cattle feed. The second reason it is repugnant to me is

because, like most other species of mammals, humans have evolved so

that our instincts tell us to find it so. Most mammals (there are

exceptions) only practice cannibalism under three circumstances,

extreme overpopulation, starvation, or to remove dead offspring from

the nest. Keep in mind, in another post I said " There is no living

thing that can survive without the death or the suffering of other

living things. The trick is to determine what kind of suffering you

can live with inflicting, and minimizing the rest "

 

In regards to the use of human body parts for purposed other than

food... It happens every single day in the western world. Humans are

dissected for reasearch on a regular basis. Human organs, and the

cells of unborn humans, are physically implanted into the bodies of

others. Humans wear the hair and until 85 years ago, the teeth of

others. We keep body parts as bric-a-brac. We save the teeth and

body parts of our children. After surgery, some keep their tonsils

for posterity. Some sects of the Christian cult keep the body parts

of ancient saints to worship... the Catholic church even had a 300

year long search for Jesus'es foreskin (the only body part of Christ

that his followers believe could still be earthbound) . People carry

the charred remains of loved ones in pendants, or put them in a pretty

vase on the mantle. Musician Danny Elfman has bongos made of real

human skulls, (one's male, one's female, he says it's the most

romantic thing he has ever seen) King Diamond has a mike stand made

of real human femurs. I myself have put my money where my mouth is.

While I do plan on having most of my remains cremated and used for

compost, I have written in my will to leave my closest friends body

parts. A vegan friend of mine, who is an artist, plans on

constructing a steering wheel from my pelvis. A vegetarian friend of

mine is going to make ritual rattles from the bones of my hands and

feet. Another friend plans to make a lamp from my skull. It's the

ultimate in recycling. The knowledge that no part of me will be wasted

when I am gone is a great comfort to me.

I only draw the line in cases such as the Nazi's use Jews as

industrial products. Once again, this is not hypocritical because I

have also stated I only found it ethical to use animal parts

industrially if the animal died for another reason. (ie. food, self

defence, natural causes)

This all may seem quite macabre to most modern westerners. However,

in a historical context, my views are actually quite mild.

[Guest guest]

Joel

 

I totally agree with what you say. There is no difference at all.

 

Jo

 

> Given that humans and animals are equal, would it also be ethically ok

> to wear human skins or eat human flesh? So long as we stick to free

> range and hunted humans, and do not waste anything (so you do not need

> to take more lives than neccesary).

>

> I don't know how other people feel about this, but it seems to me to

> be inconsistent to accept the use of dead animals but not dead humans,

> if they are considered to be equal.

>

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree with you. Lets eat our fellow creatures. Have you ate any humans lately ... quite tasty I hear. And how about eating your pets ... your cats or dogs for example. They taste good too. Just make sure that humans you kill and eat are free range and fun loving fellow creatures and don't waste their skin. There must be some use for human skin ... just think of the possibilities.

Werner.

 

As I am a meat eater (I only joined the group to give the warning Therefore, I believe that it is no more immoral for a human to eat our fellow creatures than for any other homnivores or carnivores, so long as one sticks to free range and hunted animals, and do not waste

[Guest guest]

Hi ...

vegan is a person that consumes no animal products .... period. Milk is an animal product, so no vegan in his right mind would drink milk. I think you got your terminology mixed up.

Lacto-ovo vegetarian will drink milk and eat eggs, but never a vegan.

Live and learn....

Werner.

who killed the cow. However, If a vegan drinks milk that was paid for by somebody else, the company that is keeping the dairy cow is still profiting. Also, the milk the vegan consumed means that yet another gallon has to be pulled from the udder for a non-vegan that would have otherwise used the milk the vegan drank.

[Guest guest]

Hi Werner

 

The Nazis used human skin to make lampshades, and the fat to make soap.

 

Apparently the Israeli soldiers who are killed fighting are skinned so that the skin can be used for skin grafts etc.

 

Jo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree with you. Lets eat our fellow creatures. Have you ate any humans lately ... quite tasty I hear. And how about eating your pets ... your cats or dogs for example. They taste good too. Just make sure that humans you kill and eat are free range and fun loving fellow creatures and don't waste their skin. There must be some use for human skin ... just think of the possibilities.

Werner.

 

As I am a meat eater (I only joined the group to give the warning Therefore, I believe that it is no more immoral for a human to eat our fellow creatures than for any other homnivores or carnivores, so long as one sticks to free range and hunted animals, and do not waste

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Jo

 

I'd never heard that before - that's terrible. I guess I could sort of understand the skin grafts bit, but lampshades ............? I feel quite ill!

 

Janey

x

 

 

-

Jo

Saturday, April 20, 2002 12:47 PM

Re: Re: opinons

 

Hi Werner

 

The Nazis used human skin to make lampshades, and the fat to make soap.

 

Apparently the Israeli soldiers who are killed fighting are skinned so that the skin can be used for skin grafts etc.

 

Jo

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree with you. Lets eat our fellow creatures. Have you ate any humans lately ... quite tasty I hear. And how about eating your pets ... your cats or dogs for example. They taste good too. Just make sure that humans you kill and eat are free range and fun loving fellow creatures and don't waste their skin. There must be some use for human skin ... just think of the possibilities.

Werner.

 

As I am a meat eater (I only joined the group to give the warning Therefore, I believe that it is no more immoral for a human to eat our fellow creatures than for any other homnivores or carnivores, so long as one sticks to free range and hunted animals, and do not waste

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

On Fri Apr 19, 2002, jezebel_mag wrote:

> I agree with you absolutely. Morally it is the same. However, the

> idea you suggest is something that humans have been doing since we

> walked the planet. Cannibalism, and use of human body parts for

> practical reasons has existed since the beginning of our species.

 

That's a good point - I'd forgotten about how widely human body parts

were used. But they are used as they become available, from natural

death or fatal accidents. The demand for human body parts does not

drive the killing of more humans to supply that demand (apart from in

exceptional/illegal circumstances).

 

It would be more understandable if only the bodies of those animals

who had died naturally were used, but this is not the case. As the

demand for animal products increases, humans kill more animals. In

pretty much all human cultures, that's the way it is. If you intend to

eat meat, there is no way you can avoid causing more animals to be

killed, unless for example, you were to go scavenging for the bodies

of animals that have died of natural causes. You would probably then

be unwilling to eat the animals, for fear that they may carry a

harmful disease. Plus the scavengers of the animal kingdom would

probably get there before you, as they've had a lot more practice at

it than you

 

> the nest. Keep in mind, in another post I said " There is no living

> thing that can survive without the death or the suffering of other

> living things. The trick is to determine what kind of suffering you

> can live with inflicting, and minimizing the rest "

 

If you consider humans and animals to be equal, then as you do not

accept the killing (suffering) of humans, you will not accept the

killing of animals. So you should _at most_ be using the parts of

animals that have died from natural causes. Do you _only_ eat products

from animals that have died naturally? Following your reasoning, there

does not seem to be a way to justify eating any other animal products,

no matter how 'ethically' they are produced.

 

Joel.

[Guest guest]

Hi Janey

 

I'd never heard that before - that's terrible. I guess I could sort of understand the skin grafts bit, but lampshades ............? I feel quite ill!

 

I remember seeing the photos in a book when I was about 15 - something I've never forgotten.

 

I can understand using the skin of dead people to help other people. In the west, I believe they use the foreskin from circumsized infants to grow patches of skin for burns victims.

 

It all makes me feel a bit 'yuk'!

 

Jo

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Jo,

I juess I was right ... there is a market for human parts afterall. What will they think of next.

Werner.

 

----

 

 

 

Saturday, April 20, 2002 06:52:32 AM

 

Re: Re: opinons

 

Hi Werner

 

The Nazis used human skin to make lampshades, and the fat to make soap.

 

Apparently the Israeli soldiers who are killed fighting are skinned so that the skin can be used for skin grafts etc.

 

Jo

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree with you. Lets eat our fellow creatures. Have you ate any humans lately ... quite tasty I hear. And how about eating your pets ... your cats or dogs for example. They taste good too. Just make sure that humans you kill and eat are free range and fun loving fellow creatures and don't waste their skin. There must be some use for human skin ... just think of the possibilities.

Werner.

 

As I am a meat eater (I only joined the group to give the warning Therefore, I believe that it is no more immoral for a human to eat our fellow creatures than for any other homnivores or carnivores, so long as one sticks to free range and hunted animals, and do not waste

 

 

 

 

 

 

To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

:

 

<< I agree with you absolutely. Morally it is the same. However, the

idea you suggest is something that humans have been doing since we

walked the planet. Cannibalism, and use of human body parts for

practical reasons has existed since the beginning of our species.

 

 

yeah,..and yer point?

humans also have kept slaves for millenia, have slaughtered each other by the

millions for longer...does it make it all ok??

*looks confused*

 

 

Now your probably thinking, " OMG, this girl is some sort of

cannibal! " Not at all. I find the idea personally repulsive. Is this

hypocritical based on my statement that humans and animals are equals?

Not one whit, and there are two reasons for this. In most species of

mammals, including humans, cannibalism can cause hideous disease.

This is plainly evident by the prevalence of " Khudzo " , a brain rotting

disease decimating New Guinnea tribes that still practice illeagal

cannibalism. >>

its kuru, and its a relatively new disease, as diseases go, linked with

cruetzfeld/jakob and mad cow, and the other lil spongiform brain wasting

diseases(now, scrapie, thats an old spongiform disease)....

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/20/02 11:08:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

tofujojo writes:

 

<< Yeah, we all know how " innocent " you are

 

Check this one out Fraggle:

 

http://www.koszkas.com/acc/ >>

 

ah...fank yoo

20 hole boots!

*drool*

now, if i start saving my pennies, and only drink beer every other day, and

don't eat on tuesdays, and......

 

fraggle

[Guest guest]

 

-

Werner

Saturday, April 20, 2002 4:06 AM

Re: Re: opinons

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree with you. Lets eat our fellow creatures. Have you ate any humans lately ... quite tasty I hear. And how about eating your pets ... your cats or dogs for example. They taste good too. Just make sure that humans you kill and eat are free range and fun loving fellow creatures and don't waste their skin. There must be some use for human skin ... just think of the possibilities.

Werner.

 

 

The nazis came up with some pretty interesting things to do with human skin. Particularly tattoed skin and baby skin... I guess they tend to lend themselves better to the creative possibilities.

 

On a side note -- and I know that the vast majority of the world is not ready for this idea, but I'm running with it anyway -- I heard that scientists figured out a way to grow "human skin" in the lab. It's intended for use in skin grafts and stuff like that, but I thought, wouldn't it be cool if they could figure out a way to tan it (in an environmentally friendly way, of course) -- and make shoes! How comfortable would that be! Nice soft "skin" shoes! Yeah, I don't think the market's quite ready for that one, yet -- if ever... LOL. Oh well.

 

--jojo

 

As I am a meat eater (I only joined the group to give the warning Therefore, I believe that it is no more immoral for a human to eat our fellow creatures than for any other homnivores or carnivores, so long as one sticks to free range and hunted animals, and do not waste

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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