Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

July 21, 2007

sacred vegetable patches? how does that work? life force? gifts from the earth? sorry, I just thought that most religions have ancient roots ( no pun intended) - apart from Scientology , ha,ha,ha nice one Ron! P.S. If I am offending anyone, dont take it too personally, I happen to think every thing can be the target of humour from time to time ( its only fair right? ), if you dont laugh, you will only end up crying, lifes too short, your soon dust. The Valley Vegan.................metalscarab <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter I think where you're misunderstanding is what Pagans consider sacred. While there are some Pagans who will consider the antiquity of a site to be important, they're in a minority. Most of us will consider somewhere special to us as individuals to be sacred, regardless of how long they've been there (I know many who have sacred vegetable patches). I think it's a misunderstanding of Paganism to think that we're always trying to look back to the dim and distant past for our spiritual roots. BB Peter -

Peter VV Friday, July 20, 2007 6:54 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer Just trying to get an idea from someone who knows more about it than me. In terms of importance, if only 400 years old, then I would not think it very high on the scale of pagan sites?, and less important than authentic ancient sites? thee must be 100`s of ancient sites? This doesnt seem that important to me, but then I am not a believer. I would imagine if someone had damaged it there would have been an outcry, but as

there was no direct damage it was just a second rate news item.Probably just as well. The Valley Vegan..............metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Peter Some people do consider it to be a site of spiritual interest. The tradition that I most associate myself with didn't exist until the early 1980s - does that make it any less important or worthy of respect than one which has been around for several centuries or millenia? If older is better, then why aren't Kermetics (Egyptian recreationists - not frog worshippers!) held in the highest esteem? BB Peter - Peter VV Thursday, July 19, 2007 9:16 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer So its not ancient then , only 17th century? and a hunter? does that still make it a religious icon or a modern folly? Cmon Peter you are the Pagan expert, is wiki right? The Valley

Vegan.............fraggle <EBbrewpunx (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote: from wiki Cerne Abbas giant From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Layout of the giant as seen from directly above The Cerne Abbas giant is a hill figure of a giant naked man on a hillside near the village of Cerne Abbas to the north of Dorchester in Dorset, England. The 55 metre

(180 foot) high, 51 metre (167 foot) wide figure is carved into the side of a steep hill and is best viewed from the opposite side of the valley or from the air. The carving is formed by a trench 30cm (1 foot) wide and about the same depth which has been cut through the grass and earth into the underlying chalk. In his right hand the giant holds a knobbed club 36.5 metres (120 feet) long. Contents[hide] 1 History 2 Appearance 3 Publicity Stunts 4 References 5 See also 6 External links [edit] History Detail of the phallus and legs Like several other chalk figures carved into the English countryside, the Cerne Abbas giant is often thought of as an ancient creation.

Like many of the other figures, its history cannot be traced back further than the late 17th century, making an origin during the Celtic or Roman periods unlikely. Above and to the right of the Giant's head is an earthwork known as the "Trendle" or "Frying Pan"; medieval writings refer to this location as 'Trendle Hill' but make no mention of the giant, leading to the conclusion that it was probably only carved about 400 years ago. It is interesting to note in this regard that the Uffington White Horse (an unquestionably prehistoric hill figure on the Berkshire

Downs) was noticed and recorded by medieval authors. The Cerne Abbas Giant seen from a distance The earliest written reference to the Giant was made in 1694 in a record for payment in the Cerne Abbas churchwarden's accounts of 3 shillings toward the re-cutting of the giant. This was followed by references in 1742, and in 1751, John Hutchins wrote in his Guide to Dorset that the carving had only been done the previous century. It is now believed that it was probably made by servants of the Lord of the Manor Denzil Holles during the English Civil War. There has been speculation that the figure is a parody of Oliver Cromwell, who was sometimes mockingly referred to as "England's Hercules" by his enemies; the Hercules connection is strengthened by the recent discovery of an obliterated line perhaps representing an animal skin (see below). A local legend says that a real giant was killed on the hill and that the people from Cerne Abbas drew round the figure and marked him out on the hillside. [edit] Appearance Layout of the giant with the obliterated line (in yellow) reconstructed Very much a phallic symbol because of the distinct erect penis and testicles, for hundreds of years it was local custom to erect a maypole within the earthwork about which childless couples would dance to promote fertility and even today childless couples are known to visit the site in order to copulate in the hope that they might have a child.[1] Recently, a group of archaeologists using special equipment found that part of the carving had been allowed to be obliterated. According to these findings, the free arm should have held a depiction of an animal's skin, giving credence to the theory that the giant was a depiction of a hunter or, alternatively, Heracles with the skin of the Nemean Lion over his arm. It has also been suggested that his large erection is in fact a result

of merging a circle representing his navel with a smaller penis during a Victorian re-cut.[2] Because the erect penis is 15% the length of the drawing (excluding the club), the penis length would equal roughly 26cm (10.5 inches) on the average male frame. Peter VV Jul 19, 2007 3:41 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx? Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind

of war god? The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: That's the problem, you see.It is a religious site to Pagans.Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to help them become pregnant! Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would then fall pregnant?> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the british

weather its probably gone by now.> But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are fair game for ridicule......> > > The Valley Vegan...............> > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Jo> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to St Paul's> Cathedral....> > BB> Peter> > -> "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> >> > Jo> >> >

, Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > temporary, so whats the problem?> > >> > >> > >> > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > >> > >> > > Aerial footage> > >> > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a cartoon> > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the Cerne> > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> >

spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous> > >> > >> > > Ann Bryn-Evans> > > Pagan Federation> > >> > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan Federation,> > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have changed> > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and wash> > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been

used to> > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike Webb,> > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were amused by> > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different and> > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, but> > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > among experts about when the giant was created varying from thousands> > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Peter H>

> >> > >> > >> > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,> > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > >> >> >> >> >> > To send an email to - > >

July 21, 2007

thank goodness they didn't put a huge chalk outline of the prophet

mohammed eating a donut next to the giant....nice to see the pagans

haven't rioted or put a fatwa on matt groening!

blake

>I agree, I don't think the issue is about Paganism per se,

>rather the big picture is why is it ok to offend one group.

July 21, 2007

Amen

Let's respect each others beleifs and leave it at that!

, " ckg " <cynthiaandtheothers

wrote:

>

> OK.

>

> Everyone is being nice, professional, kind and I appreciate it. I

> appreciate the tone of the list, and thanks.

>

> That said:

>

> BAM! BAM! <-- <Sound of atheist list member beating head against

the wall)

>

> Could we all just respect each other's sacred stuff?????

>

> <pantpantpant>

>

> Cyn

>

> <The above is not meant in any way to annoy, irritate, or offend.

I just

> felt like my head was going to explode. _____

>

On

> Behalf Of metalscarab

> Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:31 AM

>

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> Hi Peter

>

> It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not,

it has

> been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts...

crusades,

> inquisitions, etc...

>

> BB

>

> Peter

>

> -

>

> Peter VV <swpgh01

>

> @gro ups.com

>

> Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

>

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not

> gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably

know!), as

> opposed to hunting animals......

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab@ <metalscarab gmail.com> wrote:

>

> Hi Peter

>

> Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a

cross, for

> instance????

>

> BB

>

> Peter

>

> -

>

> Peter VV <swpgh01

>

> @gro ups.com

>

> Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

>

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant

phalanx?

>

> Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious

icon is it

> some kind of war god?

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ <jo.heartwork gmail.com> wrote:

>

> That's the problem, you see.

>

> It is a religious site to Pagans.

>

> Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to

> help them become pregnant!

>

> Jo

>

> @gro <%40>

ups.com,

> Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

women

> went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

would

> then fall pregnant?

> >

> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> british weather its probably gone by now.

> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> fair game for ridicule......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...............

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Jo

> >

> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to

> St Paul's

> > Cathedral....

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> > -

> > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > <@gro <%40>

ups.com>

> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

> >

> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

has

> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > @gro <%40>

> ups.com, Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > >

> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > >

> > > > Aerial footage

> > > >

> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> cartoon

> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> Cerne

> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

the

> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the

> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous

> > > >

> > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > Pagan Federation

> > > >

> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

based

> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

Ann

> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> Federation,

> > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> changed

> > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and

> wash

> > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the

> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> Webb,

> > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> amused by

> > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is different

> and

> > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so far,

> but

> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

Simpson

> > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate

> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> thousands

> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > >

> > > > Peter H

> > > >

> > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> less,

> > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

> @ <%40>

> > >

July 21, 2007

Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant they'll tell you it's about fertility.

Why are you being so belligerent about this issue?

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your sins.....greedy heads of church are another story....

The Valley Vegan.........metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Peter

It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

The Valley Vegan.............metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Peter

Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a cross, for instance????

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx?

Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind of war god?

The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote:

That's the problem, you see.It is a religious site to Pagans.Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to help them become pregnant! Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would then fall pregnant?> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the british weather its probably gone by now.> But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are fair game for ridicule......> > > The Valley Vegan...............> > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Jo> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to St Paul's> Cathedral....> > BB> Peter> > -> "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> >> > Jo> >> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > temporary, so whats the problem?> > >> > >> > >> > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > >> > >> > > Aerial footage> > >> > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a cartoon> > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the Cerne> > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous> > >> > >> > > Ann Bryn-Evans> > > Pagan Federation> > >> > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan Federation,> > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have changed> > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and wash> > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to> > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike Webb,> > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were amused by> > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different and> > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, but> > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > among experts about when the giant was created varying from thousands> > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Peter H> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,> > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > >> >> >> >> >> > To send an email to - > >

July 21, 2007

Uh oh.........

OK, separate you two.

Stay focused on the subject.

Marcy

-

metalscarab

Saturday, July 21, 2007 2:20 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant they'll tell you it's about fertility.

Why are you being so belligerent about this issue?

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your sins.....greedy heads of church are another story....

The Valley Vegan.........metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Peter

It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

The Valley Vegan.............metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Peter

Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a cross, for instance????

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx?

Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind of war god?

The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote:

That's the problem, you see.It is a religious site to Pagans.Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to help them become pregnant! Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would then fall pregnant?> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the british weather its probably gone by now.> But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are fair game for ridicule......> > > The Valley Vegan...............> > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Jo> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to St Paul's> Cathedral....> > BB> Peter> > -> "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> >> > Jo> >> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > temporary, so whats the problem?> > >> > >> > >> > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > >> > >> > > Aerial footage> > >> > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a cartoon> > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the Cerne> > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous> > >> > >> > > Ann Bryn-Evans> > > Pagan Federation> > >> > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan Federation,> > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have changed> > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and wash> > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to> > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike Webb,> > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were amused by> > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different and> > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, but> > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > among experts about when the giant was created varying from thousands> > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Peter H> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,> > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > >> >> >> >> >> > To send an email to - > >

July 21, 2007

It has always been obvious to me that special places in nature

are more sacred than any building or artifact.

Call me a heretic, but I don't see a lot of difference between

one totem and another -- religious relics, sports-team insignia,

national flags, etc.

At 8:43 PM +0100 7/21/07, Peter VV wrote:

sacred vegetable patches? how does that work? life force? gifts

from the earth?

July 22, 2007

MarcyWhat are you talking about? I'm just intrigued as to why Peter feels the need to keep battering this over the head...BBPeter

July 22, 2007

Hi YarrowInteresting. Can't say that I particularly find flags or sports team insignias to be in the same arena - but I also know that some people view these symbols as significant to them. I can't imagine a time when I would be inclined to desecrate the insignia of a sports team... although as a political activist, I can imagine that I might " desecrate " an English / British flag as a political statement about the way our country is governed.

BBPeterOn 21/07/07, yarrow <yarrow wrote:

It has always been obvious to me that special places in nature

are more sacred than any building or artifact.

Call me a heretic, but I don't see a lot of difference between

one totem and another -- religious relics, sports-team insignia,

national flags, etc.

At 8:43 PM +0100 7/21/07, Peter VV wrote:

sacred vegetable patches? how does that work? life force? gifts

from the earth?

July 22, 2007

Nothing wrong with lively debate, dont hold with name calling though ................belligerant! ha,ha.... The Valley Vegan............Marcy <imgreen03 wrote: Uh oh......... OK, separate you two. Stay focused on the subject. Marcy - metalscarab Saturday, July 21, 2007 2:20 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant they'll tell you it's about fertility. Why are you being so belligerent about this issue? BB Peter - Peter VV Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of faith,

if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your sins.....greedy heads of church are another story.... The Valley Vegan.........metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Peter It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc... BB Peter - Peter VV Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably know!), as opposed to hunting animals...... The Valley Vegan.............metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Peter Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a cross, for instance???? BB Peter - Peter VV Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41

PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx? Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind of war god? The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: That's the problem, you see.It is a religious site to Pagans.Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to help them become pregnant! Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would then fall pregnant?> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the british weather its probably gone by now.> But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are fair game for ridicule......> > > The Valley Vegan...............> > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Jo> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to St Paul's> Cathedral....> > BB> Peter> > -> "heartwerk"

<jo.heartwork> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> >> > Jo> >> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > temporary, so whats the problem?> > >> > >> > >> > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > >> > >> > > Aerial footage> > >> > > Pagans have

pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a cartoon> > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the Cerne> > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous> > >> > >> > > Ann Bryn-Evans> > > Pagan Federation> > >> > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

Federation,> > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have changed> > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and wash> > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to> > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike Webb,> > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were amused by> > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different and> > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, but> > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > >

to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > among experts about when the giant was created varying from thousands> > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Peter H> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,> > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > >> >> >> >> >> > To send an email to - > >

July 22, 2007

I didnt realise I was being belligerant, just debating a point and trying to understand why this was so offensive to you guys. Just out of interest are there any female equivalents of the giant? ( would it be classed as pornographic by todays standards if someone decided to carve one and call it a religious fertility symbol?) I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male dominated? Is the white horse a pagan site? is that a stallion or a mare? Sorry for going off at tangients all the time, its the way my frazzled brain works! The Valley Vegan..........metalscarab <metalscarab wrote: Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant they'll tell you it's about fertility. Why are you being so belligerent about this issue? BB Peter - Peter VV Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your sins.....greedy heads of church are another story.... The Valley Vegan.........metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Peter It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc... BB Peter - Peter VV Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer I think

that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably know!), as opposed to hunting animals...... The Valley Vegan.............metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Peter Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a cross, for instance???? BB Peter - Peter VV Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx? Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind of war god? The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: That's the problem, you see.It is a religious site to Pagans.Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to help them become pregnant! Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would then fall pregnant?> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the british weather its probably gone by now.> But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are fair game for ridicule......> > > The Valley Vegan...............> >

metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Jo> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to St Paul's> Cathedral....> > BB> Peter> > -> "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> >> > Jo> >> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and

only> > temporary, so whats the problem?> > >> > >> > >> > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > >> > >> > > Aerial footage> > >> > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a cartoon> > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the Cerne> > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous> > >> > >> > > Ann

Bryn-Evans> > > Pagan Federation> > >> > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan Federation,> > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have changed> > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and wash> > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to> > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike Webb,> > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were amused by> > the temporary addition to the

village. "I think it is different and> > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, but> > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > among experts about when the giant was created varying from thousands> > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Peter H> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,> > sign up

for your freeaccount today.> > >> >> >> >> >> > To send an email to - > >

July 22, 2007

Hi Peter

Since when was "belligerant" name calling... according to my dictionary, it means "inclined to be exhibiting assertiveness, hostility, truculence, or combatativeness", which does seem to be a fair description of the way you are conducting your end of this discussion, and very accurate for the way you always condemn Paganism every time the subject comes up - in the past, you have referred to my spiritual path as being "ridiculous", amongst other things. Seems pretty belligerent to me.

As a matter of interest, Peter, why do you always feel the need to attack Paganism whenever it comes up? We know you don't like any form of spirituality, but why do you feel the need to actually make it clear every single time? Couldn't you just do what most of us do when a subject that doesn't interest you comes up, and hit the delete button?

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:19 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

Nothing wrong with lively debate, dont hold with name calling though ................belligerant!

ha,ha....

The Valley Vegan............Marcy <imgreen03 wrote:

Uh oh.........

OK, separate you two.

Stay focused on the subject.

Marcy

-

metalscarab

Saturday, July 21, 2007 2:20 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant they'll tell you it's about fertility.

Why are you being so belligerent about this issue?

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your sins.....greedy heads of church are another story....

The Valley Vegan.........metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Peter

It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

The Valley Vegan.............metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Peter

Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a cross, for instance????

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx?

Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind of war god?

The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote:

That's the problem, you see.It is a religious site to Pagans.Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to help them become pregnant! Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would then fall pregnant?> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the british weather its probably gone by now.> But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are fair game for ridicule......> > > The Valley Vegan...............> > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Jo> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to St Paul's> Cathedral....> > BB> Peter> > -> "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> >> > Jo> >> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > temporary, so whats the problem?> > >> > >> > >> > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > >> > >> > > Aerial footage> > >> > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a cartoon> > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the Cerne> > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous> > >> > >> > > Ann Bryn-Evans> > > Pagan Federation> > >> > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan Federation,> > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have changed> > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and wash> > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to> > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike Webb,> > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were amused by> > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different and> > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, but> > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > among experts about when the giant was created varying from thousands> > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Peter H> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,> > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > >> >> >> >> >> > To send an email to - > >

July 22, 2007

Hi Peter

Personally, I reckon the white "horse" is more of a dragon... others I know think it's a weasel. :-)

As to why it's so offensive - sacred places are something that people consider to be important. To try a parallel, I know that you are very fond of the fact you are Welsh, and are proud of Wales. If someone went to Wales and pasted signs all over it saying "under English Rule", and "England is better than Wales", you'd probably find that offensive. Now, imagine if Wales was more to you than just a nationality, and was something which was fundamental to the way you live your everyday life - if it was something that was key to your very existence. Think how much *more* offended you would be then. Then you'd be getting close to why ridiculing peoples' sacred sites is offensive.

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:28 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

I didnt realise I was being belligerant, just debating a point and trying to understand why this was so offensive to you guys.

Just out of interest are there any female equivalents of the giant? ( would it be classed as pornographic by todays standards if someone decided to carve one and call it a religious fertility symbol?)

I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male dominated?

Is the white horse a pagan site? is that a stallion or a mare?

Sorry for going off at tangients all the time, its the way my frazzled brain works!

The Valley Vegan..........metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant they'll tell you it's about fertility.

Why are you being so belligerent about this issue?

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your sins.....greedy heads of church are another story....

The Valley Vegan.........metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Peter

It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

The Valley Vegan.............metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Peter

Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a cross, for instance????

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx?

Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind of war god?

The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote:

That's the problem, you see.It is a religious site to Pagans.Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to help them become pregnant! Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would then fall pregnant?> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the british weather its probably gone by now.> But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are fair game for ridicule......> > > The Valley Vegan...............> > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Jo> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to St Paul's> Cathedral....> > BB> Peter> > -> "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> >> > Jo> >> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > temporary, so whats the problem?> > >> > >> > >> > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > >> > >> > > Aerial footage> > >> > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a cartoon> > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the Cerne> > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous> > >> > >> > > Ann Bryn-Evans> > > Pagan Federation> > >> > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan Federation,> > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have changed> > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and wash> > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to> > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike Webb,> > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were amused by> > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different and> > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, but> > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > among experts about when the giant was created varying from thousands> > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Peter H> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,> > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > >> >> >> >> >> > To send an email to - > >

July 22, 2007

I understand, but if it was only temporary I would think it just stupid and ignore it. Surely if they deliberately set about to be offensive then you would take it seriously, but water based paint? it couldnt have lasted more than a day or two? Interesting that you think of the horse as a dragon. What Is there to make you believe that? Also returning to the point I made, why are most religious iconry male gender and not an equal ammount of female dieties? ( eg son of god, buddha etc ), although as i get my brain in gear, there were a lot of roman/greek/hindu gods who were female werent there? The Valley Vegan........... metalscarab <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter Personally, I reckon the white "horse" is more of a dragon... others I know think it's a weasel. :-) As to why it's so offensive - sacred places are something that people consider to be important. To try a parallel, I know that you are very fond of the fact you are Welsh, and are proud of Wales. If someone went to Wales and pasted signs all over it saying "under English Rule", and "England is better than Wales", you'd probably find that offensive. Now,

imagine if Wales was more to you than just a nationality, and was something which was fundamental to the way you live your everyday life - if it was something that was key to your very existence. Think how much *more* offended you would be then. Then you'd be getting close to why ridiculing peoples' sacred sites is offensive. BB Peter - Peter VV Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:28

PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer I didnt realise I was being belligerant, just debating a point and trying to understand why this was so offensive to you guys. Just out of interest are there any female equivalents of the giant? ( would it be classed as pornographic by todays standards if someone decided to carve one and call it a religious fertility symbol?) I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male dominated? Is the white horse a pagan site? is that a stallion or a mare? Sorry for going off at tangients all the time, its the way my frazzled brain works! The Valley Vegan..........metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant they'll tell you it's about fertility. Why are you being so belligerent about this issue? BB Peter - Peter VV Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your sins.....greedy heads of church are another story.... The Valley Vegan.........metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Peter It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts... crusades, inquisitions,

etc... BB Peter - Peter VV Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably know!), as opposed to hunting

animals...... The Valley Vegan.............metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Peter Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a cross, for instance???? BB Peter - Peter VV Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx? Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind of war god? The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: That's the problem, you see.It is a religious site to Pagans.Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant.

It is similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to help them become pregnant! Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would then fall pregnant?> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the british weather its probably gone by now.> But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are fair game for ridicule......> > > The Valley Vegan...............> > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Jo> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to St

Paul's> Cathedral....> > BB> Peter> > -> "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> >> > Jo> >> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > temporary, so whats the problem?> > >> > >> > >> > > There is debate about the age of the

Cerne Abbas Giant> > >> > >> > > Aerial footage> > >> > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a cartoon> > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the Cerne> > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous> > >> > >> > > Ann Bryn-Evans> > > Pagan Federation> > >> > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> >

biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan Federation,> > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have changed> > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and wash> > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to> > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike Webb,> > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were amused by> > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different and> > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, but> > I'm not sure many

of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > among experts about when the giant was created varying from thousands> > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Peter H> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,> > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > >> >> >> >> >> > To send an email to - > >

July 22, 2007

If I called you beliggerent I would be calling you hostile, by your own definition, isnt that name calling? As for me attacking Paganism? I wasnt aware that I singled out any one religion more than others? When did I call it rediculous? I didnt did I ? realy? sorry Pagans, I didnt think I had called any religion rediculous.( well maybe Scientology...ha,ha....sorry LA) Seriuosly ( a rare moment for me ), everyone has the right to believe in what they like whether it be cartoon charectors, money, mythical spacemen or whatever, its all good. I just like to probe a bit to try and understand the basis for these beliefs. The Valley Vegan....................... metalscarab <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter Since when was "belligerant" name calling... according to my dictionary, it means "inclined to be exhibiting assertiveness, hostility, truculence, or combatativeness", which does seem to be a fair description of the way you are conducting your end of this discussion, and very accurate for the way you always condemn Paganism every time the subject comes up - in the past, you have referred to my spiritual path as being "ridiculous", amongst other things. Seems pretty belligerent to me. As a matter of interest, Peter, why do you always feel the need to attack Paganism whenever it comes up? We know you don't like any form of spirituality, but why do you feel the need to actually make it clear every single time? Couldn't you just do what most of us do when a subject that doesn't interest you comes up, and hit the delete button? BB Peter - Peter VV

Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:19 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer Nothing wrong with lively debate, dont hold with name calling though ................belligerant! ha,ha.... The Valley Vegan............Marcy <imgreen03 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote: Uh oh......... OK, separate you two. Stay focused on the subject. Marcy - metalscarab Saturday, July 21, 2007 2:20 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant they'll tell you it's about fertility. Why are you being so belligerent about this issue? BB Peter - Peter VV Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of faith, if you asked someone who believes in

that faith they will tell you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your sins.....greedy heads of church are another story.... The Valley Vegan.........metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Peter It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc... BB Peter - Peter VV Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably know!), as opposed to hunting animals...... The Valley Vegan.............metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Peter Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a cross, for instance???? BB Peter - Peter VV Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx? Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind of war god? The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: That's the problem, you see.It is a religious site to Pagans.Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to help them become pregnant! Jo , Peter VV

<swpgh01 wrote:>> Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would then fall pregnant?> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the british weather its probably gone by now.> But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are fair game for ridicule......> > > The Valley Vegan...............> > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Jo> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to St Paul's> Cathedral....> > BB> Peter> > -> "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> >> > Jo> >> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > temporary, so whats the problem?> > >> > >> > >> > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > >> > >> > > Aerial footage> > >> > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a

cartoon> > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the Cerne> > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous> > >> > >> > > Ann Bryn-Evans> > > Pagan Federation> > >> > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan Federation,> > said: "We were hoping

for some dry weather but I think I have changed> > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and wash> > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to> > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike Webb,> > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were amused by> > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different and> > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, but> > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial

landmark.> > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > among experts about when the giant was created varying from thousands> > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Peter H> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,> > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > >> >> >> >> >> > To send an email to - > >

July 22, 2007

Hi Peter-

I was responding to the label of belligerent. The subject switched from the Pagan imagery to a poster's behavior.

I just didn't see anyone being belligerent, and I think it's a good idea to focus on the issues.

No big deal, no harm done, s'far's I can tell.

Carry on............

Marcy

-

Peter Kebbell

Sunday, July 22, 2007 1:03 AM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

MarcyWhat are you talking about? I'm just intrigued as to why Peter feels the need to keep battering this over the head...BBPeter

July 22, 2007

Hi Peter

Most pantheons contain a fairly even number of female and male deities. All of the monotheistic religions developed in patriachal societies, so would naturally tend to have their deity as male as the societies they existed in would be more inclined to accept those religions than ones which had a single female deity...

I just think the "horse" looks more like a dragon than it does a horse - purely personal opinion!

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Sunday, July 22, 2007 6:46 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

I understand, but if it was only temporary I would think it just stupid and ignore it.

Surely if they deliberately set about to be offensive then you would take it seriously, but water based paint? it couldnt have lasted more than a day or two?

Interesting that you think of the horse as a dragon. What Is there to make you believe that?

Also returning to the point I made, why are most religious iconry male gender and not an equal ammount of female dieties? ( eg son of god, buddha etc ), although as i get my brain in gear, there were a lot of roman/greek/hindu gods who were female werent there?

The Valley Vegan...........

metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Peter

Personally, I reckon the white "horse" is more of a dragon... others I know think it's a weasel. :-)

As to why it's so offensive - sacred places are something that people consider to be important. To try a parallel, I know that you are very fond of the fact you are Welsh, and are proud of Wales. If someone went to Wales and pasted signs all over it saying "under English Rule", and "England is better than Wales", you'd probably find that offensive. Now, imagine if Wales was more to you than just a nationality, and was something which was fundamental to the way you live your everyday life - if it was something that was key to your very existence. Think how much *more* offended you would be then. Then you'd be getting close to why ridiculing peoples' sacred sites is offensive.

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:28 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

I didnt realise I was being belligerant, just debating a point and trying to understand why this was so offensive to you guys.

Just out of interest are there any female equivalents of the giant? ( would it be classed as pornographic by todays standards if someone decided to carve one and call it a religious fertility symbol?)

I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male dominated?

Is the white horse a pagan site? is that a stallion or a mare?

Sorry for going off at tangients all the time, its the way my frazzled brain works!

The Valley Vegan..........metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote:

Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant they'll tell you it's about fertility.

Why are you being so belligerent about this issue?

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your sins.....greedy heads of church are another story....

The Valley Vegan.........metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Peter

It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

The Valley Vegan.............metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote:

Hi Peter

Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a cross, for instance????

BB

Peter

-

Peter VV

Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx?

Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind of war god?

The Valley Vegan..............heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote:

That's the problem, you see.It is a religious site to Pagans.Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to help them become pregnant! Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would then fall pregnant?> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the british weather its probably gone by now.> But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are fair game for ridicule......> > > The Valley Vegan...............> > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Jo> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to St Paul's> Cathedral....> > BB> Peter> > -> "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> >> > Jo> >> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > temporary, so whats the problem?> > >> > >> > >> > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > >> > >> > > Aerial footage> > >> > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a cartoon> > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the Cerne> > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous> > >> > >> > > Ann Bryn-Evans> > > Pagan Federation> > >> > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan Federation,> > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have changed> > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and wash> > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to> > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike Webb,> > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were amused by> > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different and> > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, but> > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > among experts about when the giant was created varying from thousands> > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Peter H> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,> > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > >> >> >> >> >> > To send an email to - > >

July 23, 2007

I can't imagine desecrating other people's totems either. And

yet... it strikes me that most of the world desecrates animals every

day.

At 9:05 AM +0100 7/22/07, Peter Kebbell wrote:

Hi Yarrow

Interesting. Can't say that I particularly find flags or sports team

insignias to be in the same arena - but I also know that some people

view these symbols as significant to them. I can't imagine a time when

I would be inclined to desecrate the insignia of a sports team...

although as a political activist, I can imagine that I might

" desecrate " an English / British flag as a political

statement about the way our country is governed.

BB

Peter

On 21/07/07, yarrow <yarrow wrote:

It has always been obvious to me that special places in nature

are more sacred than any building or artifact.

Call me a heretic, but I don't see a lot of difference between

one totem and another -- religious relics, sports-team insignia,

national flags, etc.

At 8:43 PM +0100 7/21/07, Peter VV wrote:

sacred vegetable patches? how does that work? life force? gifts

from the earth?

July 23, 2007

It isn't a peaceful symbol though, is it?

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins,

not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably

know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a

cross, for instance????

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant

phalanx?

> Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious

icon is it some kind of war god?

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> That's the problem, you see.

>

> It is a religious site to Pagans.

>

> Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to

> help them become pregnant!

>

> Jo

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

women

> went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

would

> then fall pregnant?

> >

> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> british weather its probably gone by now.

> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> fair game for ridicule......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...............

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Jo

> >

> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to

> St Paul's

> > Cathedral....

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> > -

> > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> >

> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

> >

> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

has

> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > >

> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > >

> > > > Aerial footage

> > > >

> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> cartoon

> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> Cerne

> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

the

> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the

> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous

> > > >

> > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > Pagan Federation

> > > >

> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

based

> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

Ann

> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> Federation,

> > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> changed

> > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and

> wash

> > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the

> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> Webb,

> > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> amused by

> > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is different

> and

> > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so far,

> but

> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

Simpson

> > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate

> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> thousands

> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > >

> > > > Peter H

> > > >

> > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> less,

> > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

>

> > >

July 23, 2007

I don't think it is the age of the symbol that counts. The symbol is

a representation of an idea.

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> Just trying to get an idea from someone who knows more about it

than me.

> In terms of importance, if only 400 years old, then I would not

think it very high on the scale of pagan sites?, and less important

than authentic ancient sites? thee must be 100`s of ancient sites?

This doesnt seem that important to me, but then I am not a believer.

> I would imagine if someone had damaged it there would have been

an outcry, but as there was no direct damage it was just a second

rate news item.Probably just as well.

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> Some people do consider it to be a site of spiritual interest.

The tradition that I most associate myself with didn't exist until

the early 1980s - does that make it any less important or worthy of

respect than one which has been around for several centuries or

millenia? If older is better, then why aren't Kermetics (Egyptian

recreationists - not frog worshippers!) held in the highest esteem?

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Thursday, July 19, 2007 9:16 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> So its not ancient then , only 17th century? and a hunter? does

that still make it a religious icon or a modern folly?

> Cmon Peter you are the Pagan expert, is wiki right?

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

> from wiki

> Cerne Abbas giant From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

> Jump to: navigation, search

>

> Layout of the giant as seen from directly above

>

> The Cerne Abbas giant is a hill figure of a giant naked man on a

hillside near the village of Cerne Abbas to the north of Dorchester

in Dorset, England. The 55 metre (180 foot) high, 51 metre (167 foot)

wide figure is carved into the side of a steep hill and is best

viewed from the opposite side of the valley or from the air. The

carving is formed by a trench 30cm (1 foot) wide and about the same

depth which has been cut through the grass and earth into the

underlying chalk. In his right hand the giant holds a knobbed club

36.5 metres (120 feet) long.

> Contents[hide]

>

> 1 History

> 2 Appearance

> 3 Publicity Stunts

> 4 References

> 5 See also

> 6 External links

>

> [edit] History

> Detail of the phallus and legs

>

> Like several other chalk figures carved into the English

countryside, the Cerne Abbas giant is often thought of as an ancient

creation. Like many of the other figures, its history cannot be

traced back further than the late 17th century, making an origin

during the Celtic or Roman periods unlikely. Above and to the right

of the Giant's head is an earthwork known as the " Trendle " or " Frying

Pan " ; medieval writings refer to this location as 'Trendle Hill' but

make no mention of the giant, leading to the conclusion that it was

probably only carved about 400 years ago. It is interesting to note

in this regard that the Uffington White Horse (an unquestionably

prehistoric hill figure on the Berkshire Downs) was noticed and

recorded by medieval authors.

>

> The Cerne Abbas Giant seen from a distance

>

> The earliest written reference to the Giant was made in 1694 in a

record for payment in the Cerne Abbas churchwarden's accounts of 3

shillings toward the re-cutting of the giant. This was followed by

references in 1742, and in 1751, John Hutchins wrote in his Guide to

Dorset that the carving had only been done the previous century. It

is now believed that it was probably made by servants of the Lord of

the Manor Denzil Holles during the English Civil War. There has been

speculation that the figure is a parody of Oliver Cromwell, who was

sometimes mockingly referred to as " England's Hercules " by his

enemies; the Hercules connection is strengthened by the recent

discovery of an obliterated line perhaps representing an animal skin

(see below). A local legend says that a real giant was killed on the

hill and that the people from Cerne Abbas drew round the figure and

marked him out on the hillside.

>

> [edit] Appearance

> Layout of the giant with the obliterated line (in yellow)

reconstructed

>

> Very much a phallic symbol because of the distinct erect penis

and testicles, for hundreds of years it was local custom to erect a

maypole within the earthwork about which childless couples would

dance to promote fertility and even today childless couples are known

to visit the site in order to copulate in the hope that they might

have a child.[1]

> Recently, a group of archaeologists using special equipment found

that part of the carving had been allowed to be obliterated.

According to these findings, the free arm should have held a

depiction of an animal's skin, giving credence to the theory that the

giant was a depiction of a hunter or, alternatively, Heracles with

the skin of the Nemean Lion over his arm. It has also been suggested

that his large erection is in fact a result of merging a circle

representing his navel with a smaller penis during a Victorian re-cut.

[2] Because the erect penis is 15% the length of the drawing

(excluding the club), the penis length would equal roughly 26cm (10.5

inches) on the average male frame.

>

> Peter VV

> Jul 19, 2007 3:41 PM

>

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on

the giant phalanx?

> Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious

icon is it some kind of war god?

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> That's the problem, you see.

>

> It is a religious site to Pagans.

>

> Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to

> help them become pregnant!

>

> Jo

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

women

> went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

would

> then fall pregnant?

> >

> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> british weather its probably gone by now.

> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> fair game for ridicule......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...............

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Jo

> >

> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to

> St Paul's

> > Cathedral....

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> > -

> > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> >

> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

> >

> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

has

> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > >

> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > >

> > > > Aerial footage

> > > >

> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> cartoon

> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> Cerne

> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

the

> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the

> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous

> > > >

> > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > Pagan Federation

> > > >

> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

based

> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

Ann

> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> Federation,

> > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> changed

> > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and

> wash

> > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the

> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> Webb,

> > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> amused by

> > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is different

> and

> > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so far,

> but

> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

Simpson

> > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate

> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> thousands

> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > >

> > > > Peter H

> > > >

> > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> less,

> > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

>

> > >

July 23, 2007

I don't know the origin of the Giant. It is probably a

representation of a local fertility god. The reason we know about

Greek and Roman gods more is because there are more writings about

them.

It may well have been invented 400 years ago in the same manner that

any religious icon is/has been invented.

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> So is the image a religious image ( i.e. a copy of an older gods

image - if so whats his name? ) or was it " invented " for want of a

better word, when carved into the hillside 400 years ago ( they

wouldnt get away with it these days!)

> I think those others you mention are a lot older than this

carving?

>

> The Valley Vegan...............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> It is a religious symbol. Why would it have to be over a

certain age

> to be one?

>

> There are many hunters as religious symbols - Diana, Leonidas,

> Artemis and our own Herne.

>

> Jo

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > So its not ancient then , only 17th century? and a hunter? does

> that still make it a religious icon or a modern folly?

> > Cmon Peter you are the Pagan expert, is wiki right?

> >

> > The Valley Vegan.............

> >

> > fraggle <EBbrewpunx@> wrote:

> > from wiki

> > Cerne Abbas giant From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

> > Jump to: navigation, search

> >

> > Layout of the giant as seen from directly above

> >

> > The Cerne Abbas giant is a hill figure of a giant naked man on a

> hillside near the village of Cerne Abbas to the north of Dorchester

> in Dorset, England. The 55 metre (180 foot) high, 51 metre (167

foot)

> wide figure is carved into the side of a steep hill and is best

> viewed from the opposite side of the valley or from the air. The

> carving is formed by a trench 30cm (1 foot) wide and about the same

> depth which has been cut through the grass and earth into the

> underlying chalk. In his right hand the giant holds a knobbed club

> 36.5 metres (120 feet) long.

> > Contents[hide]

> >

> > 1 History

> > 2 Appearance

> > 3 Publicity Stunts

> > 4 References

> > 5 See also

> > 6 External links

> >

> > [edit] History

> > Detail of the phallus and legs

> >

> > Like several other chalk figures carved into the English

> countryside, the Cerne Abbas giant is often thought of as an

ancient

> creation. Like many of the other figures, its history cannot be

> traced back further than the late 17th century, making an origin

> during the Celtic or Roman periods unlikely. Above and to the right

> of the Giant's head is an earthwork known as the " Trendle "

or " Frying

> Pan " ; medieval writings refer to this location as 'Trendle Hill'

but

> make no mention of the giant, leading to the conclusion that it was

> probably only carved about 400 years ago. It is interesting to note

> in this regard that the Uffington White Horse (an unquestionably

> prehistoric hill figure on the Berkshire Downs) was noticed and

> recorded by medieval authors.

> >

> > The Cerne Abbas Giant seen from a distance

> >

> > The earliest written reference to the Giant was made in 1694 in a

> record for payment in the Cerne Abbas churchwarden's accounts of 3

> shillings toward the re-cutting of the giant. This was followed by

> references in 1742, and in 1751, John Hutchins wrote in his Guide

to

> Dorset that the carving had only been done the previous century. It

> is now believed that it was probably made by servants of the Lord

of

> the Manor Denzil Holles during the English Civil War. There has

been

> speculation that the figure is a parody of Oliver Cromwell, who was

> sometimes mockingly referred to as " England's Hercules " by his

> enemies; the Hercules connection is strengthened by the recent

> discovery of an obliterated line perhaps representing an animal

skin

> (see below). A local legend says that a real giant was killed on

the

> hill and that the people from Cerne Abbas drew round the figure and

> marked him out on the hillside.

> >

> > [edit] Appearance

> > Layout of the giant with the obliterated line (in yellow)

> reconstructed

> >

> > Very much a phallic symbol because of the distinct erect penis

> and testicles, for hundreds of years it was local custom to erect a

> maypole within the earthwork about which childless couples would

> dance to promote fertility and even today childless couples are

known

> to visit the site in order to copulate in the hope that they might

> have a child.[1]

> > Recently, a group of archaeologists using special equipment found

> that part of the carving had been allowed to be obliterated.

> According to these findings, the free arm should have held a

> depiction of an animal's skin, giving credence to the theory that

the

> giant was a depiction of a hunter or, alternatively, Heracles with

> the skin of the Nemean Lion over his arm. It has also been

suggested

> that his large erection is in fact a result of merging a circle

> representing his navel with a smaller penis during a Victorian re-

cut.

> [2] Because the erect penis is 15% the length of the drawing

> (excluding the club), the penis length would equal roughly 26cm

(10.5

> inches) on the average male frame.

> >

> > Peter VV

> > Jul 19, 2007 3:41 PM

> >

> > Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

> Homer

> >

> > What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on

> the giant phalanx?

> > Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious

> icon is it some kind of war god?

> >

> > The Valley Vegan..............

> >

> > heartwerk <jo.heartwork@> wrote:

> > That's the problem, you see.

> >

> > It is a religious site to Pagans.

> >

> > Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> > similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god

to

> > help them become pregnant!

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> > knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

> women

> > went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

> would

> > then fall pregnant?

> > >

> > > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> > british weather its probably gone by now.

> > > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> > fair game for ridicule......

> > >

> > > The Valley Vegan...............

> > >

> > > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > > Hi Jo

> > >

> > > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway

to

> > St Paul's

> > > Cathedral....

> > >

> > > BB

> > > Peter

> > >

> > > -

> > > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > >

> > > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

> > >

> > > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

> has

> > > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long

Man.

> > > >

> > > > Jo

> > > >

> > > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > > >

> > > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > > >

> > > > > Aerial footage

> > > > >

> > > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> > cartoon

> > > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> > Cerne

> > > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

> next

> > > > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to

promote

> the

> > > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of

the

> > > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > > something so ridiculous

> > > > >

> > > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > > Pagan Federation

> > > > >

> > > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

> based

> > > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

> Ann

> > > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> > Federation,

> > > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> > changed

> > > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain

and

> > wash

> > > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time

the

> > > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> > Webb,

> > > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> > amused by

> > > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is

different

> > and

> > > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so

far,

> > but

> > > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

> Simpson

> > > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is

debate

> > > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> > thousands

> > > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > > >

> > > > > Peter H

> > > > >

> > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle

for

> > less,

> > > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > To send an email to -

> >

> > > >

July 23, 2007

That's because we live in a patriarchal society, so every

prehistoric icon is interpreted from a patriarchal point of view. For

instance, carved figures that were once thought to represent men

holding weapons were reexamined and found to be women harvesting food.

The " hunter " aspect of prehistoric humans has been

overemphasized and the " gatherer " aspect largely

ignored.

Also, in English, the male pronoun has traditionally been used

exclusively, so even texts translated from different languages that

may have referred to female aspects of divinity often lost that

nuance.

Any female images were traditionally interpreted with respect to

our own culture, as helpers or lesser deities, not part of the power

structure. Any images of rulers or powerful beings were assumed to be

male.

At 12:28 PM +0100 7/22/07, Peter VV wrote:

I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male

dominated?

July 23, 2007

Hi Cynthia

Most of us do :-)

Jo

, " ckg " <cynthiaandtheothers

wrote:

>

> OK.

>

> Everyone is being nice, professional, kind and I appreciate it. I

> appreciate the tone of the list, and thanks.

>

> That said:

>

> BAM! BAM! <-- <Sound of atheist list member beating head against

the wall)

>

> Could we all just respect each other's sacred stuff?????

>

> <pantpantpant>

>

> Cyn

>

> <The above is not meant in any way to annoy, irritate, or offend.

I just

> felt like my head was going to explode. _____

>

On

> Behalf Of metalscarab

> Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:31 AM

>

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> Hi Peter

>

> It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not,

it has

> been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts...

crusades,

> inquisitions, etc...

>

> BB

>

> Peter

>

> -

>

> Peter VV <swpgh01

>

> @gro ups.com

>

> Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

>

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not

> gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably

know!), as

> opposed to hunting animals......

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab@ <metalscarab gmail.com> wrote:

>

> Hi Peter

>

> Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a

cross, for

> instance????

>

> BB

>

> Peter

>

> -

>

> Peter VV <swpgh01

>

> @gro ups.com

>

> Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

>

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant

phalanx?

>

> Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious

icon is it

> some kind of war god?

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ <jo.heartwork gmail.com> wrote:

>

> That's the problem, you see.

>

> It is a religious site to Pagans.

>

> Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to

> help them become pregnant!

>

> Jo

>

> @gro <%40>

ups.com,

> Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

women

> went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

would

> then fall pregnant?

> >

> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> british weather its probably gone by now.

> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> fair game for ridicule......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...............

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Jo

> >

> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to

> St Paul's

> > Cathedral....

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> > -

> > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > <@gro <%40>

ups.com>

> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

> >

> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

has

> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > @gro <%40>

> ups.com, Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > >

> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > >

> > > > Aerial footage

> > > >

> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> cartoon

> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> Cerne

> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

the

> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the

> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous

> > > >

> > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > Pagan Federation

> > > >

> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

based

> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

Ann

> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> Federation,

> > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> changed

> > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and

> wash

> > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the

> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> Webb,

> > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> amused by

> > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is different

> and

> > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so far,

> but

> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

Simpson

> > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate

> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> thousands

> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > >

> > > > Peter H

> > > >

> > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> less,

> > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

> @ <%40>

> > >

July 23, 2007

Paganism is dominated by females who follow and it is very equal in

male and female.

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> I understand, but if it was only temporary I would think it just

stupid and ignore it.

> Surely if they deliberately set about to be offensive then you

would take it seriously, but water based paint? it couldnt have

lasted more than a day or two?

>

> Interesting that you think of the horse as a dragon. What Is

there to make you believe that?

>

> Also returning to the point I made, why are most religious iconry

male gender and not an equal ammount of female dieties? ( eg son of

god, buddha etc ), although as i get my brain in gear, there were a

lot of roman/greek/hindu gods who were female werent there?

>

> The Valley Vegan...........

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> Personally, I reckon the white " horse " is more of a dragon...

others I know think it's a weasel. :-)

>

> As to why it's so offensive - sacred places are something that

people consider to be important. To try a parallel, I know that you

are very fond of the fact you are Welsh, and are proud of Wales. If

someone went to Wales and pasted signs all over it saying " under

English Rule " , and " England is better than Wales " , you'd probably

find that offensive. Now, imagine if Wales was more to you than just

a nationality, and was something which was fundamental to the way you

live your everyday life - if it was something that was key to your

very existence. Think how much *more* offended you would be then.

Then you'd be getting close to why ridiculing peoples' sacred sites

is offensive.

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:28 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> I didnt realise I was being belligerant, just debating a point

and trying to understand why this was so offensive to you guys.

> Just out of interest are there any female equivalents of the

giant? ( would it be classed as pornographic by todays standards if

someone decided to carve one and call it a religious fertility

symbol?)

> I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male dominated?

> Is the white horse a pagan site? is that a stallion or a mare?

>

> Sorry for going off at tangients all the time, its the way my

frazzled brain works!

>

> The Valley Vegan..........

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant

they'll tell you it's about fertility.

>

> Why are you being so belligerent about this issue?

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of

faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell

you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your

sins.....greedy heads of church are another story....

>

> The Valley Vegan.........

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or

not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous

acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins,

not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably

know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a

cross, for instance????

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant

phalanx?

> Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious

icon is it some kind of war god?

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> That's the problem, you see.

>

> It is a religious site to Pagans.

>

> Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to

> help them become pregnant!

>

> Jo

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

women

> went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

would

> then fall pregnant?

> >

> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> british weather its probably gone by now.

> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> fair game for ridicule......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...............

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Jo

> >

> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to

> St Paul's

> > Cathedral....

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> > -

> > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> >

> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

> >

> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

has

> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > >

> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > >

> > > > Aerial footage

> > > >

> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> cartoon

> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> Cerne

> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

the

> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the

> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous

> > > >

> > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > Pagan Federation

> > > >

> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

based

> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

Ann

> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> Federation,

> > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> changed

> > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and

> wash

> > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the

> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> Webb,

> > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> amused by

> > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is different

> and

> > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so far,

> but

> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

Simpson

> > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate

> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> thousands

> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > >

> > > > Peter H

> > > >

> > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> less,

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July 23, 2007

True....lots in Wales..... The Valley Vegan............heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: That may well be the case. After all, look how many churches were built over Pagan sites.Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> By the same arguement, some might say that someone "spoilt" an ancient place 400 years ago by carving the image in the lovely green

hillside in the first place!> > The Valley Vegan.............> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:> It's an association of ideas in some people. "Let's go and draw > something funny next to another religious symbol, like Homer or the > Long Woman" and of course some people leave out the 'next to' and > spoil an ancient place.> > Jo> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> >> > I still dont see it as vandalism, it didnt touch the giant, it was > in a field next to it?> > > > The Valley Vegan..............> > > > heartwerk <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> > Hi Peter> > > > That is a very good question to ask - obviously it is okay to mock > > some things and not

others!!!> > > > My thoughts last night were that what with Trinny & Susannah > changing > > the Long Man into a woman, and then Homer right next to The Giant, > it > > won't be long before these sites and others like them suffer > > vandalism.> > > > BB> > Jo> > > > , "metalscarab" <metalscarab@> > > wrote:> > >> > > Hi Jo> > > > > > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to > > St Paul's> > > Cathedral....> > > > > > BB> > > Peter> > > > > > -> > > "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork@>> > > > > > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> > > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > > > > > > > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm > has> > > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> > > >> > > > Jo> > > >> > > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > > > temporary, so whats the problem?> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > There is debate about the age

of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Aerial footage> > > > >> > > > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a > > cartoon> > > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the > > Cerne> > > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted > > next> > > > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote > the> > > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > > > something so ridiculous> > > >

>> > > > >> > > > > Ann Bryn-Evans> > > > > Pagan Federation> > > > >> > > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-> > based> > > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. > > Ann> > > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan > > Federation,> > > > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have > > changed> > > > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and > > wash> > > > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > > > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time > > the> > > > giant has been used to

advertise products. He has been used to> > > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike > > Webb,> > > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were > > amused by> > > > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different > > and> > > > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, > > but> > > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer > Simpson> > > > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > > > among experts about when the giant was created

varying from > > thousands> > > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Peter H> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for > > less,> > > > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > To send an email to -> > > > > >

July 23, 2007

Hi Yarrow

You've reminded me of a book I got a long time ago, Prayers of The Cosmos, which takes the Aramaic version of what we now call The Lord's Prayer, and highlighted how poorly it had been translated - just the first word translated as "Our Father" (Abwoon) contains both a masculine and a feminine root.

BB

Peter

-

yarrow

Monday, July 23, 2007 7:56 AM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

That's because we live in a patriarchal society, so every prehistoric icon is interpreted from a patriarchal point of view. For instance, carved figures that were once thought to represent men holding weapons were reexamined and found to be women harvesting food. The "hunter" aspect of prehistoric humans has been overemphasized and the "gatherer" aspect largely ignored.

Also, in English, the male pronoun has traditionally been used exclusively, so even texts translated from different languages that may have referred to female aspects of divinity often lost that nuance.

Any female images were traditionally interpreted with respect to our own culture, as helpers or lesser deities, not part of the power structure. Any images of rulers or powerful beings were assumed to be male.

At 12:28 PM +0100 7/22/07, Peter VV wrote:

I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male dominated?

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