Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

July 23, 2007

.... but you show no respect to Paganism. It's not even that we

expect you to voice any respect, just show the respect of not

stirring it up every time it is mentioned.

Would you have posted the article about Homer on here if there were

no Pagans on the list - or wouldn't it have been so 'funny' then?

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> Nice to have honest opinions, I respect that.

>

> The Valley Vegan..........

>

> ckg <cynthiaandtheothers wrote:

> OK.

>

> Everyone is being nice, professional, kind and I appreciate it.

I appreciate the tone of the list, and thanks.

>

> That said:

>

> BAM! BAM! ß <Sound of atheist list member beating head against

the wall)

>

> Could we all just respect each other's sacred stuff?????

>

> <pantpantpant>

>

> Cyn

>

> <The above is not meant in any way to annoy, irritate, or

offend. I just felt like my head was going to explode.>

>

On Behalf Of metalscarab

> Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:31 AM

>

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> Hi Peter

>

> It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or

not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous

acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...

>

> BB

>

> Peter

>

> -

>

> Peter VV

>

> Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

>

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians

sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you

probably know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

>

> Hi Peter

>

> Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a

cross, for instance????

>

> BB

>

> Peter

>

> -

>

> Peter VV

>

> Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

>

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the

giant phalanx?

>

> Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a

religious icon is it some kind of war god?

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

>

> That's the problem, you see.

>

> It is a religious site to Pagans.

>

> Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to

> help them become pregnant!

>

> Jo

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

women

> went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

would

> then fall pregnant?

> >

> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> british weather its probably gone by now.

> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> fair game for ridicule......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...............

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Jo

> >

> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to

> St Paul's

> > Cathedral....

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> > -

> > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> >

> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

> >

> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

has

> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > >

> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > >

> > > > Aerial footage

> > > >

> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> cartoon

> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> Cerne

> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

the

> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the

> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous

> > > >

> > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > Pagan Federation

> > > >

> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

based

> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

Ann

> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> Federation,

> > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> changed

> > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and

> wash

> > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the

> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> Webb,

> > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> amused by

> > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is different

> and

> > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so far,

> but

> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

Simpson

> > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate

> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> thousands

> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > >

> > > > Peter H

> > > >

> > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> less,

> > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

>

> > >

July 23, 2007

It would be offensive to site a crucifix so close.

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> I never said the place was sacred, read it again, my words

were " lovely green hill side " and by carving into it would be classed

as vandalism in todays standards?

> Perhaps if the owner of the field next to this carving, had a

giant crucifix carved into it, would that still be offensive to the

people who have considered this site sacred in the last 400 years? Or

would one carving be as valid as the next?

> and not considered as offensive? Just food for thought....

>

> The Valley Vegan............

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> They might - but since we don't have any records of whether or

not people considered it a sacred place 400 years ago, the argument

seems a little redundant.

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Friday, July 20, 2007 7:05 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> By the same arguement, some might say that someone " spoilt " an

ancient place 400 years ago by carving the image in the lovely green

hillside in the first place!

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> It's an association of ideas in some people. " Let's go and

draw

> something funny next to another religious symbol, like Homer or the

> Long Woman " and of course some people leave out the 'next to' and

> spoil an ancient place.

>

> Jo

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > I still dont see it as vandalism, it didnt touch the giant, it

was

> in a field next to it?

> >

> > The Valley Vegan..............

> >

> > heartwerk <jo.heartwork@> wrote:

> > Hi Peter

> >

> > That is a very good question to ask - obviously it is okay to

mock

> > some things and not others!!!

> >

> > My thoughts last night were that what with Trinny & Susannah

> changing

> > the Long Man into a woman, and then Homer right next to The

Giant,

> it

> > won't be long before these sites and others like them suffer

> > vandalism.

> >

> > BB

> > Jo

> >

> > , " metalscarab " <metalscarab@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Jo

> > >

> > > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway

to

> > St Paul's

> > > Cathedral....

> > >

> > > BB

> > > Peter

> > >

> > > -

> > > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > >

> > > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

> > >

> > > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

> has

> > > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long

Man.

> > > >

> > > > Jo

> > > >

> > > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > > >

> > > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > > >

> > > > > Aerial footage

> > > > >

> > > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> > cartoon

> > > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> > Cerne

> > > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

> > next

> > > > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to

promote

> the

> > > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of

the

> > > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > > something so ridiculous

> > > > >

> > > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > > Pagan Federation

> > > > >

> > > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

> > based

> > > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

> > Ann

> > > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> > Federation,

> > > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> > changed

> > > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain

and

> > wash

> > > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time

> > the

> > > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> > Webb,

> > > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> > amused by

> > > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is

different

> > and

> > > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so

far,

> > but

> > > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

> Simpson

> > > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is

debate

> > > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> > thousands

> > > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > > >

> > > > > Peter H

> > > > >

> > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle

for

> > less,

> > > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > To send an email to -

> >

> > > >

July 23, 2007

But it's not nice to laugh at other people's expense. As Anouk said -

if one side isn't laughing it's not a joke. There are plenty of

funny things in the world that don't cause offense.

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> sacred vegetable patches? how does that work? life force? gifts

from the earth?

> sorry, I just thought that most religions have ancient roots ( no

pun intended) - apart from Scientology , ha,ha,ha nice one Ron!

>

> P.S. If I am offending anyone, dont take it too personally, I

happen to think every thing can be the target of humour from time to

time ( its only fair right? ), if you dont laugh, you will only end

up crying, lifes too short, your soon dust.

>

> The Valley Vegan.................

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> I think where you're misunderstanding is what Pagans consider

sacred. While there are some Pagans who will consider the antiquity

of a site to be important, they're in a minority. Most of us will

consider somewhere special to us as individuals to be sacred,

regardless of how long they've been there (I know many who have

sacred vegetable patches). I think it's a misunderstanding of

Paganism to think that we're always trying to look back to the dim

and distant past for our spiritual roots.

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Friday, July 20, 2007 6:54 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> Just trying to get an idea from someone who knows more about it

than me.

> In terms of importance, if only 400 years old, then I would not

think it very high on the scale of pagan sites?, and less important

than authentic ancient sites? thee must be 100`s of ancient sites?

This doesnt seem that important to me, but then I am not a believer.

> I would imagine if someone had damaged it there would have been

an outcry, but as there was no direct damage it was just a second

rate news item.Probably just as well.

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> Some people do consider it to be a site of spiritual interest.

The tradition that I most associate myself with didn't exist until

the early 1980s - does that make it any less important or worthy of

respect than one which has been around for several centuries or

millenia? If older is better, then why aren't Kermetics (Egyptian

recreationists - not frog worshippers!) held in the highest esteem?

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Thursday, July 19, 2007 9:16 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> So its not ancient then , only 17th century? and a hunter? does

that still make it a religious icon or a modern folly?

> Cmon Peter you are the Pagan expert, is wiki right?

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

> from wiki

> Cerne Abbas giant From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

> Jump to: navigation, search

>

> Layout of the giant as seen from directly above

>

> The Cerne Abbas giant is a hill figure of a giant naked man on a

hillside near the village of Cerne Abbas to the north of Dorchester

in Dorset, England. The 55 metre (180 foot) high, 51 metre (167 foot)

wide figure is carved into the side of a steep hill and is best

viewed from the opposite side of the valley or from the air. The

carving is formed by a trench 30cm (1 foot) wide and about the same

depth which has been cut through the grass and earth into the

underlying chalk. In his right hand the giant holds a knobbed club

36.5 metres (120 feet) long.

> Contents[hide]

>

> 1 History

> 2 Appearance

> 3 Publicity Stunts

> 4 References

> 5 See also

> 6 External links

>

> [edit] History

> Detail of the phallus and legs

>

> Like several other chalk figures carved into the English

countryside, the Cerne Abbas giant is often thought of as an ancient

creation. Like many of the other figures, its history cannot be

traced back further than the late 17th century, making an origin

during the Celtic or Roman periods unlikely. Above and to the right

of the Giant's head is an earthwork known as the " Trendle " or " Frying

Pan " ; medieval writings refer to this location as 'Trendle Hill' but

make no mention of the giant, leading to the conclusion that it was

probably only carved about 400 years ago. It is interesting to note

in this regard that the Uffington White Horse (an unquestionably

prehistoric hill figure on the Berkshire Downs) was noticed and

recorded by medieval authors.

>

> The Cerne Abbas Giant seen from a distance

>

> The earliest written reference to the Giant was made in 1694 in a

record for payment in the Cerne Abbas churchwarden's accounts of 3

shillings toward the re-cutting of the giant. This was followed by

references in 1742, and in 1751, John Hutchins wrote in his Guide to

Dorset that the carving had only been done the previous century. It

is now believed that it was probably made by servants of the Lord of

the Manor Denzil Holles during the English Civil War. There has been

speculation that the figure is a parody of Oliver Cromwell, who was

sometimes mockingly referred to as " England's Hercules " by his

enemies; the Hercules connection is strengthened by the recent

discovery of an obliterated line perhaps representing an animal skin

(see below). A local legend says that a real giant was killed on the

hill and that the people from Cerne Abbas drew round the figure and

marked him out on the hillside.

>

> [edit] Appearance

> Layout of the giant with the obliterated line (in yellow)

reconstructed

>

> Very much a phallic symbol because of the distinct erect penis

and testicles, for hundreds of years it was local custom to erect a

maypole within the earthwork about which childless couples would

dance to promote fertility and even today childless couples are known

to visit the site in order to copulate in the hope that they might

have a child.[1]

> Recently, a group of archaeologists using special equipment found

that part of the carving had been allowed to be obliterated.

According to these findings, the free arm should have held a

depiction of an animal's skin, giving credence to the theory that the

giant was a depiction of a hunter or, alternatively, Heracles with

the skin of the Nemean Lion over his arm. It has also been suggested

that his large erection is in fact a result of merging a circle

representing his navel with a smaller penis during a Victorian re-cut.

[2] Because the erect penis is 15% the length of the drawing

(excluding the club), the penis length would equal roughly 26cm (10.5

inches) on the average male frame.

>

> Peter VV

> Jul 19, 2007 3:41 PM

>

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on

the giant phalanx?

> Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious

icon is it some kind of war god?

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> That's the problem, you see.

>

> It is a religious site to Pagans.

>

> Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to

> help them become pregnant!

>

> Jo

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

women

> went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

would

> then fall pregnant?

> >

> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> british weather its probably gone by now.

> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> fair game for ridicule......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...............

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Jo

> >

> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to

> St Paul's

> > Cathedral....

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> > -

> > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> >

> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

> >

> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

has

> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > >

> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > >

> > > > Aerial footage

> > > >

> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> cartoon

> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> Cerne

> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

the

> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the

> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous

> > > >

> > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > Pagan Federation

> > > >

> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

based

> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

Ann

> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> Federation,

> > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> changed

> > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and

> wash

> > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the

> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> Webb,

> > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> amused by

> > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is different

> and

> > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so far,

> but

> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

Simpson

> > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate

> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> thousands

> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > >

> > > > Peter H

> > > >

> > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> less,

> > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

>

> > >

July 23, 2007

I think it is because Peter doesn't like the idea of Paganism.

Jo

, " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab

wrote:

>

> Marcy

>

> What are you talking about? I'm just intrigued as to why Peter feels

the

> need to keep battering this over the head...

>

> BB

> Peter

>

July 23, 2007

The White Horse is sacared to a lot of people.

I think that in modern Paganism male and female are equal, and

definitely the feminine is represented equally.

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> I didnt realise I was being belligerant, just debating a point and

trying to understand why this was so offensive to you guys.

> Just out of interest are there any female equivalents of the

giant? ( would it be classed as pornographic by todays standards if

someone decided to carve one and call it a religious fertility

symbol?)

> I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male dominated?

> Is the white horse a pagan site? is that a stallion or a mare?

>

> Sorry for going off at tangients all the time, its the way my

frazzled brain works!

>

> The Valley Vegan..........

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas

giant they'll tell you it's about fertility.

>

> Why are you being so belligerent about this issue?

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of

faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell

you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your

sins.....greedy heads of church are another story....

>

> The Valley Vegan.........

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or

not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous

acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins,

not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably

know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a

cross, for instance????

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant

phalanx?

> Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious

icon is it some kind of war god?

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> That's the problem, you see.

>

> It is a religious site to Pagans.

>

> Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to

> help them become pregnant!

>

> Jo

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

women

> went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

would

> then fall pregnant?

> >

> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> british weather its probably gone by now.

> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> fair game for ridicule......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...............

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Jo

> >

> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to

> St Paul's

> > Cathedral....

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> > -

> > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> >

> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

> >

> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

has

> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > >

> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > >

> > > > Aerial footage

> > > >

> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> cartoon

> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> Cerne

> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

the

> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the

> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous

> > > >

> > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > Pagan Federation

> > > >

> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

based

> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

Ann

> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> Federation,

> > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> changed

> > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and

> wash

> > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the

> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> Webb,

> > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> amused by

> > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is different

> and

> > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so far,

> but

> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

Simpson

> > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate

> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> thousands

> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > >

> > > > Peter H

> > > >

> > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> less,

> > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

>

> > >

July 23, 2007

You are getting mixed up between the environmental issues and the

ridiculing a belief issues.

Lots of people think the Uffington horse is a dragon and the fact

that it overlooks Dragon Hill would also seem to confirm that idea.

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> I understand, but if it was only temporary I would think it just

stupid and ignore it.

> Surely if they deliberately set about to be offensive then you

would take it seriously, but water based paint? it couldnt have

lasted more than a day or two?

>

> Interesting that you think of the horse as a dragon. What Is

there to make you believe that?

>

> Also returning to the point I made, why are most religious iconry

male gender and not an equal ammount of female dieties? ( eg son of

god, buddha etc ), although as i get my brain in gear, there were a

lot of roman/greek/hindu gods who were female werent there?

>

> The Valley Vegan...........

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> Personally, I reckon the white " horse " is more of a dragon...

others I know think it's a weasel. :-)

>

> As to why it's so offensive - sacred places are something that

people consider to be important. To try a parallel, I know that you

are very fond of the fact you are Welsh, and are proud of Wales. If

someone went to Wales and pasted signs all over it saying " under

English Rule " , and " England is better than Wales " , you'd probably

find that offensive. Now, imagine if Wales was more to you than just

a nationality, and was something which was fundamental to the way you

live your everyday life - if it was something that was key to your

very existence. Think how much *more* offended you would be then.

Then you'd be getting close to why ridiculing peoples' sacred sites

is offensive.

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:28 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> I didnt realise I was being belligerant, just debating a point

and trying to understand why this was so offensive to you guys.

> Just out of interest are there any female equivalents of the

giant? ( would it be classed as pornographic by todays standards if

someone decided to carve one and call it a religious fertility

symbol?)

> I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male dominated?

> Is the white horse a pagan site? is that a stallion or a mare?

>

> Sorry for going off at tangients all the time, its the way my

frazzled brain works!

>

> The Valley Vegan..........

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant

they'll tell you it's about fertility.

>

> Why are you being so belligerent about this issue?

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of

faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell

you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your

sins.....greedy heads of church are another story....

>

> The Valley Vegan.........

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or

not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous

acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins,

not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably

know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a

cross, for instance????

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant

phalanx?

> Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious

icon is it some kind of war god?

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> That's the problem, you see.

>

> It is a religious site to Pagans.

>

> Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to

> help them become pregnant!

>

> Jo

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

women

> went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

would

> then fall pregnant?

> >

> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> british weather its probably gone by now.

> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> fair game for ridicule......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...............

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Jo

> >

> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to

> St Paul's

> > Cathedral....

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> > -

> > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> >

> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

> >

> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

has

> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > >

> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > >

> > > > Aerial footage

> > > >

> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> cartoon

> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> Cerne

> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

the

> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the

> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous

> > > >

> > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > Pagan Federation

> > > >

> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

based

> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

Ann

> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> Federation,

> > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> changed

> > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and

> wash

> > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the

> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> Webb,

> > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> amused by

> > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is different

> and

> > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so far,

> but

> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

Simpson

> > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate

> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> thousands

> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > >

> > > > Peter H

> > > >

> > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> less,

> > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

>

> > >

July 23, 2007

You did call Paganism ridiculous. It was in an answer to me possibly

about six months ago. I can't remember what the discussion was, just

that my feelings were hurt.

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> If I called you beliggerent I would be calling you hostile, by your

own definition, isnt that name calling?

> As for me attacking Paganism? I wasnt aware that I singled out

any one religion more than others? When did I call it rediculous? I

didnt did I ? realy? sorry Pagans, I didnt think I had called any

religion rediculous.( well maybe Scientology...ha,ha....sorry LA)

>

> Seriuosly ( a rare moment for me ), everyone has the right to

believe in what they like whether it be cartoon charectors, money,

mythical spacemen or whatever, its all good. I just like to probe a

bit to try and understand the basis for these beliefs.

>

> The Valley Vegan.......................

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> Since when was " belligerant " name calling... according to my

dictionary, it means " inclined to be exhibiting assertiveness,

hostility, truculence, or combatativeness " , which does seem to be a

fair description of the way you are conducting your end of this

discussion, and very accurate for the way you always condemn Paganism

every time the subject comes up - in the past, you have referred to

my spiritual path as being " ridiculous " , amongst other things. Seems

pretty belligerent to me.

>

> As a matter of interest, Peter, why do you always feel the need

to attack Paganism whenever it comes up? We know you don't like any

form of spirituality, but why do you feel the need to actually make

it clear every single time? Couldn't you just do what most of us do

when a subject that doesn't interest you comes up, and hit the delete

button?

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:19 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> Nothing wrong with lively debate, dont hold with name calling

though ................belligerant!

>

> ha,ha....

>

> The Valley Vegan............

>

> Marcy <imgreen03 wrote:

> Uh oh.........

> OK, separate you two.

>

> Stay focused on the subject.

>

> Marcy

>

> -

> metalscarab

>

> Saturday, July 21, 2007 2:20 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant

they'll tell you it's about fertility.

>

> Why are you being so belligerent about this issue?

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of

faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell

you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your

sins.....greedy heads of church are another story....

>

> The Valley Vegan.........

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or

not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous

acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins,

not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably

know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a

cross, for instance????

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> Peter VV

>

> Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

>

> What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant

phalanx?

> Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious

icon is it some kind of war god?

>

> The Valley Vegan..............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> That's the problem, you see.

>

> It is a religious site to Pagans.

>

> Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to

> help them become pregnant!

>

> Jo

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

women

> went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

would

> then fall pregnant?

> >

> > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> british weather its probably gone by now.

> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> fair game for ridicule......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...............

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Jo

> >

> > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to

> St Paul's

> > Cathedral....

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

> > -

> > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> >

> > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

> >

> > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

has

> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > >

> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > >

> > > > Aerial footage

> > > >

> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> cartoon

> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> Cerne

> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

the

> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the

> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous

> > > >

> > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > Pagan Federation

> > > >

> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

based

> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

Ann

> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> Federation,

> > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> changed

> > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and

> wash

> > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the

> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> Webb,

> > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> amused by

> > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is different

> and

> > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so far,

> but

> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

Simpson

> > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate

> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> thousands

> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > >

> > > > Peter H

> > > >

> > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> less,

> > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

>

> > >

July 23, 2007

I've never heard of Pagans rioting. During the anti-war protests we

were the most peaceful bunches there! And of course, there were the

various peoples who told us we would go to hell for being Pagan.

Jo

, Blake Wilson <mbw wrote:

>

> thank goodness they didn't put a huge chalk outline of the prophet

> mohammed eating a donut next to the giant....nice to see the pagans

> haven't rioted or put a fatwa on matt groening!

>

> blake

>

> >I agree, I don't think the issue is about Paganism per se,

> >rather the big picture is why is it ok to offend one group.

>

July 23, 2007

Sorry Jo, I dont remember saying that at all. I would have thought that you wouldnt take anything I say seriously by now! I will send you a piece of pineapple upside down in the post with a pot of vanilla dessert to atone for my wicked ways. SORRY............ The Valley Vegan.................heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: You did call Paganism ridiculous. It was in an answer to me possibly about six months ago. I

can't remember what the discussion was, just that my feelings were hurt.Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> If I called you beliggerent I would be calling you hostile, by your own definition, isnt that name calling?> As for me attacking Paganism? I wasnt aware that I singled out any one religion more than others? When did I call it rediculous? I didnt did I ? realy? sorry Pagans, I didnt think I had called any religion rediculous.( well maybe Scientology...ha,ha....sorry LA)> > Seriuosly ( a rare moment for me ), everyone has the right to believe in what they like whether it be cartoon charectors, money, mythical spacemen or whatever, its all good. I just like to probe a bit to try and understand the basis for these beliefs.> > The Valley

Vegan.......................> > > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Peter> > Since when was "belligerant" name calling... according to my dictionary, it means "inclined to be exhibiting assertiveness, hostility, truculence, or combatativeness", which does seem to be a fair description of the way you are conducting your end of this discussion, and very accurate for the way you always condemn Paganism every time the subject comes up - in the past, you have referred to my spiritual path as being "ridiculous", amongst other things. Seems pretty belligerent to me.> > As a matter of interest, Peter, why do you always feel the need to attack Paganism whenever it comes up? We know you don't like any form of spirituality, but why do you feel the need to actually make it clear every single time? Couldn't you just do what most of us do when a

subject that doesn't interest you comes up, and hit the delete button?> > BB> Peter> - > Peter VV > > Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:19 PM> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > Nothing wrong with lively debate, dont hold with name calling though ................belligerant!> > ha,ha....> > The Valley Vegan............> > Marcy <imgreen03 wrote:> Uh oh.........> OK, separate you two. > > Stay focused on the subject.> > Marcy> > - > metalscarab > > Saturday, July 21,

2007 2:20 PM> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant they'll tell you it's about fertility.> > Why are you being so belligerent about this issue?> > BB> Peter> - > Peter VV > > Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will tell you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your sins.....greedy heads of church are another story....> > The Valley Vegan.........> > metalscarab

<metalscarab wrote:> Hi Peter> > It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...> > BB> Peter> - > Peter VV > > Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably know!), as opposed to hunting animals......> > The Valley Vegan.............> > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> Hi Peter> > Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being

nailed to a cross, for instance????> > BB> Peter> - > Peter VV > > Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM> Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx?> Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind of war god?> > The Valley Vegan..............> > heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:> That's the problem, you see.> > It is a religious site to Pagans.> > Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is > similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to > help them become pregnant! >

> > Jo> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> >> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of > knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women > went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would > then fall pregnant?> > > > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the > british weather its probably gone by now.> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are > fair game for ridicule......> > > > > > The Valley Vegan...............> > > > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:> > Hi Jo> > > > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to > St Paul's>

> Cathedral....> > > > BB> > Peter> > > > -> > "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork@>> > > > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> > >> > > Jo> > >> > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > > >> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > > temporary, so whats the problem?> > >

>> > > >> > > >> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > > >> > > >> > > > Aerial footage> > > >> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a > cartoon> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the > Cerne> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > > something so ridiculous> > >

>> > > >> > > > Ann Bryn-Evans> > > > Pagan Federation> > > >> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan > Federation,> > > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have > changed> > > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and > wash> > > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> Webb,> > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were > amused by> > > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different > and> > > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, > but> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from > thousands> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >

> Peter H> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for > less,> > > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > To send an email to -> > > >

July 23, 2007

Actually there are aspects of Paganism ( what little I know ), together with Buddism and Jainism, that I quite like....................maybe my dislike of organised religion stems from having had christianity drummed into me as a defenceless child for so long?, that and the fact that they seem to be responsible for so much arguements and wars........ The Valley Vegan...........heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: I think it is because Peter doesn't like the idea of

Paganism.Jo , "Peter Kebbell" <metalscarab wrote:>> Marcy> > What are you talking about? I'm just intrigued as to why Peter feels the> need to keep battering this over the head...> > BB> Peter>Peter H

Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try

it now.

July 23, 2007

I would have posted the article if they had painted the Homer next to any other religions religious site, as I think it rediculous ( sorry no offence) that anyone would be upset by such a silly cartoon drawing, and especially a very temporaray one which is the point I keep trying to make.IMO The Valley Vegan............heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: ... but you show no respect to Paganism. It's not even that we expect you to voice any respect, just show the respect

of not stirring it up every time it is mentioned.Would you have posted the article about Homer on here if there were no Pagans on the list - or wouldn't it have been so 'funny' then?Jo , Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:>> Nice to have honest opinions, I respect that.> > The Valley Vegan..........> > ckg <cynthiaandtheothers wrote:> OK.> > Everyone is being nice, professional, kind and I appreciate it. I appreciate the tone of the list, and thanks.> > That said:> > BAM! BAM! ß <Sound of atheist list member beating head against the wall)> > Could we all just respect each other's sacred stuff?????> > <pantpantpant>> > Cyn> > <The above is not meant in any way to

annoy, irritate, or offend. I just felt like my head was going to explode.>> > > > > > On Behalf Of metalscarab> Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:31 AM> > Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > Hi Peter> > > > It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly haenous acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...> > > > BB> > Peter> > - > >

Peter VV > > > > Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM> > Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > > I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins, not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you probably know!), as opposed to hunting animals......> > > > The Valley Vegan.............> > metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:> > Hi Peter> > > > Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a cross, for instance????> > > > BB> > Peter> > - > > Peter VV > > > > Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM> > Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > > What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant phalanx?> > Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious icon is it some kind of war god?> > > > The Valley Vegan..............> > heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:> > That's the problem, you see.> > It is a religious site to Pagans.> > Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is > similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god to > help them become pregnant! > > > Jo> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> >> > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of > knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where women > went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they would > then fall pregnant?> > > > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the > british weather its probably gone by now.> > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are > fair game for ridicule......> > > > > > The Valley Vegan...............> > > > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:> > Hi Jo> > > > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway to > St Paul's> > Cathedral....> > >

> BB> > Peter> > > > -> > "heartwerk" <jo.heartwork@>> > > > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM> > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer> > > > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm has> > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long Man.> > >> > > Jo> > >> > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > > >> > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only> > > temporary, so whats the problem?> > > >> > > >> > >

>> > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant> > > >> > > >> > > > Aerial footage> > > >> > > > Pagans have pledged to perform "rain magic" to wash away a > cartoon> > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the > Cerne> > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted next> > > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to promote the> > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of the> > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient> > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids> > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do> > > something so ridiculous> > > >> > > >> > > > Ann

Bryn-Evans> > > > Pagan Federation> > > >> > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-based> > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains. Ann> > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan > Federation,> > > said: "We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have > changed> > > my mind. "We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain and > wash> > > it away." She added: "I'm amazed they got permission to do> > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific> > > interest." 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time the> > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to> > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike > Webb,> > > landlord of the New Inn

in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were > amused by> > > the temporary addition to the village. "I think it is different > and> > > unusual," he said. "We've not heard any complaints here so far, > but> > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer Simpson> > > is." During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised> > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.> > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass> > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is debate> > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from > thousands> > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Peter H> > > >> > >

>> > > >> > > > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for > less,> > > sign up for your freeaccount today.> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > To send an email to -> > > >

July 23, 2007

Peter, are you referring to the concept of karma? The concept of

karma makes us responsible for our actions and the nature of our world.

Teaching responsibility is one of the toughest jobs. It is so easy to blame

someone else. Buddhists and most pagans have karma as part of their doctrine.

A few years back during the riots in LA a Buddhist friend of mine

accosted a news crew. He asked them why they were not filming “something

good” going on. They said, “Show us something good and we will film

it.” He took them across the road to Edward Olmos who was helping to

quell the rioting. He made the crew follow him for over an hour.

The concept of karma is a good influence in the world.

Don

On Behalf Of Peter VV

Monday, July 23, 2007 10:56 AM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

Actually there are aspects of

Paganism ( what little I know ), together with Buddism and Jainism, that I

quite like....................maybe my dislike of organised religion stems from

having had christianity drummed into me as a defenceless child for so long?,

that and the fact that they seem to be responsible for so much arguements and

wars........

The Valley Vegan...........

heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

I think it is because Peter doesn't like the idea of

Paganism.

Jo

,

" Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab

wrote:

>

> Marcy

>

> What are you talking about? I'm just intrigued as to why Peter feels

the

> need to keep battering this over the head...

>

> BB

> Peter

>

Peter

H

Answers - Get better answers

from someone who knows. Try

it now.

July 23, 2007

Hi Don

While it is indeed true that many Pagans believe in Karma, there are also many of us that don't.

Personally, I find the concept of Karma interesting, as it seems to suggest that many people won't help others unless they feel that it is for their own benefit... it strikes me as being the equivalent of concepts such as the Christian hell, which ensure that people act in a particular way, not because they feel compassion, but rather because they fear the personal consequences of acting otherwise.

BB

Peter

-

Don Scott

Monday, July 23, 2007 7:20 PM

RE: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

Peter, are you referring to the concept of karma? The concept of karma makes us responsible for our actions and the nature of our world. Teaching responsibility is one of the toughest jobs. It is so easy to blame someone else. Buddhists and most pagans have karma as part of their doctrine.

A few years back during the riots in LA a Buddhist friend of mine accosted a news crew. He asked them why they were not filming “something good” going on. They said, “Show us something good and we will film it.” He took them across the road to Edward Olmos who was helping to quell the rioting. He made the crew follow him for over an hour.

The concept of karma is a good influence in the world.

Don

On Behalf Of Peter VVMonday, July 23, 2007 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

Actually there are aspects of Paganism ( what little I know ), together with Buddism and Jainism, that I quite like....................maybe my dislike of organised religion stems from having had christianity drummed into me as a defenceless child for so long?, that and the fact that they seem to be responsible for so much arguements and wars........

The Valley Vegan...........heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

I think it is because Peter doesn't like the idea of Paganism.Jo , "Peter Kebbell" <metalscarab wrote:>> Marcy> > What are you talking about? I'm just intrigued as to why Peter feels the> need to keep battering this over the head...> > BB> Peter>

Peter H

Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try it now.

July 23, 2007

Yes, recently I've heard interviews on the radio with someone

who's been translating from aramaic and discovered that much of the

original bible etc. depicts a totally different world view vs. the

usual translation, which was colored by the Greek and Roman world

views. It was Neil Douglas Klotz? something like that.

At 11:05 AM +0100 7/23/07, metalscarab wrote:

Hi Yarrow

You've reminded me of a book I got a long time ago, Prayers of

The Cosmos, which takes the Aramaic version of what we now call The

Lord's Prayer, and highlighted how poorly it had been translated -

just the first word translated as " Our Father " (Abwoon)

contains both a masculine and a feminine root.

BB

Peter

-

yarrow

Monday, July 23, 2007 7:56 AM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

That's because we live in a patriarchal society, so every

prehistoric icon is interpreted from a patriarchal point of view. For

instance, carved figures that were once thought to represent men

holding weapons were reexamined and found to be women harvesting food.

The " hunter " aspect of prehistoric humans has been

overemphasized and the " gatherer " aspect largely

ignored.

Also, in English, the male pronoun has traditionally been used

exclusively, so even texts translated from different languages that

may have referred to female aspects of divinity often lost that

nuance.

Any female images were traditionally interpreted with respect to

our own culture, as helpers or lesser deities, not part of the power

structure. Any images of rulers or powerful beings were assumed to be

male.

At 12:28 PM +0100 7/22/07, Peter VV wrote:

I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male

dominated?

July 23, 2007

It's similar to the threefold law in wicca: everything you

do comes back 3 times.

At 11:20 AM -0700 7/23/07, Don Scott wrote:

Peter, are you referring to the concept of karma? The concept of

karma makes us responsible for our actions and the nature of our

world. Teaching responsibility is one of the toughest jobs. It is so

easy to blame someone else. Buddhists and most pagans have karma as

part of their doctrine.

July 23, 2007

Yes, the Wiccans I know work positively to change the world

because they believe they have the power. 3x3 is a powerful positive motivator!

It is not fear but rather the knowledge that great good can be achieved that

motivates them.

On Behalf Of yarrow

Monday, July 23, 2007 1:43 PM

RE: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

It's similar to the threefold law

in wicca: everything you do comes back 3 times.

At 11:20 AM -0700 7/23/07, Don

Scott wrote:

Peter, are you referring to the

concept of karma? The concept of karma makes us responsible for our actions and

the nature of our world. Teaching responsibility is one of the toughest jobs.

It is so easy to blame someone else. Buddhists and most pagans have karma as

part of their doctrine.

July 24, 2007

Hi Yarrow

That's the author of the book I mentioned, so very likely the person you've heard talking about it. The book really is a fascinating read. I hope he'll eventually do more of the bible, as I'd be very interested to see a different interpretation from someone who really seems to understand the languages concerned.

BB

Peter

-

yarrow

Monday, July 23, 2007 9:40 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

Yes, recently I've heard interviews on the radio with someone who's been translating from aramaic and discovered that much of the original bible etc. depicts a totally different world view vs. the usual translation, which was colored by the Greek and Roman world views. It was Neil Douglas Klotz? something like that.

At 11:05 AM +0100 7/23/07, metalscarab wrote:

Hi Yarrow

You've reminded me of a book I got a long time ago, Prayers of The Cosmos, which takes the Aramaic version of what we now call The Lord's Prayer, and highlighted how poorly it had been translated - just the first word translated as "Our Father" (Abwoon) contains both a masculine and a feminine root.

BB

Peter

-

yarrow

Monday, July 23, 2007 7:56 AM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

That's because we live in a patriarchal society, so every prehistoric icon is interpreted from a patriarchal point of view. For instance, carved figures that were once thought to represent men holding weapons were reexamined and found to be women harvesting food. The "hunter" aspect of prehistoric humans has been overemphasized and the "gatherer" aspect largely ignored.

Also, in English, the male pronoun has traditionally been used exclusively, so even texts translated from different languages that may have referred to female aspects of divinity often lost that nuance.

Any female images were traditionally interpreted with respect to our own culture, as helpers or lesser deities, not part of the power structure. Any images of rulers or powerful beings were assumed to be male.

At 12:28 PM +0100 7/22/07, Peter VV wrote:

I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male dominated?

July 24, 2007

Paganism is not organised! There are sayings in the communities that

arranging get togethers are difficult because we work on PST (Pagan

Stadard Time) and it's like herding cats! There is no overall body

representign Paganism.

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> Actually there are aspects of Paganism ( what little I know ),

together with Buddism and Jainism, that I quite

like....................maybe my dislike of organised religion stems

from having had christianity drummed into me as a defenceless child

for so long?, that and the fact that they seem to be responsible for

so much arguements and wars........

>

> The Valley Vegan...........

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> I think it is because Peter doesn't like the idea of

Paganism.

>

> Jo

>

> , " Peter Kebbell " <metalscarab@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Marcy

> >

> > What are you talking about? I'm just intrigued as to why Peter

feels

> the

> > need to keep battering this over the head...

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> >

Peter H

>

> Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit

now.

>

July 24, 2007

So I should think!

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> Sorry Jo, I dont remember saying that at all.

> I would have thought that you wouldnt take anything I say

seriously by now!

> I will send you a piece of pineapple upside down in the post with

a pot of vanilla dessert to atone for my wicked ways.

>

> SORRY............

>

> The Valley Vegan.................

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> You did call Paganism ridiculous. It was in an answer to

me possibly

> about six months ago. I can't remember what the discussion was,

just

> that my feelings were hurt.

>

> Jo

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > If I called you beliggerent I would be calling you hostile, by

your

> own definition, isnt that name calling?

> > As for me attacking Paganism? I wasnt aware that I singled out

> any one religion more than others? When did I call it rediculous? I

> didnt did I ? realy? sorry Pagans, I didnt think I had called any

> religion rediculous.( well maybe Scientology...ha,ha....sorry LA)

> >

> > Seriuosly ( a rare moment for me ), everyone has the right to

> believe in what they like whether it be cartoon charectors, money,

> mythical spacemen or whatever, its all good. I just like to probe a

> bit to try and understand the basis for these beliefs.

> >

> > The Valley Vegan.......................

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Peter

> >

> > Since when was " belligerant " name calling... according to my

> dictionary, it means " inclined to be exhibiting assertiveness,

> hostility, truculence, or combatativeness " , which does seem to be a

> fair description of the way you are conducting your end of this

> discussion, and very accurate for the way you always condemn

Paganism

> every time the subject comes up - in the past, you have referred to

> my spiritual path as being " ridiculous " , amongst other things.

Seems

> pretty belligerent to me.

> >

> > As a matter of interest, Peter, why do you always feel the need

> to attack Paganism whenever it comes up? We know you don't like any

> form of spirituality, but why do you feel the need to actually make

> it clear every single time? Couldn't you just do what most of us do

> when a subject that doesn't interest you comes up, and hit the

delete

> button?

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> > -

> > Peter VV

> >

> > Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:19 PM

> > Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

> Homer

> >

> > Nothing wrong with lively debate, dont hold with name calling

> though ................belligerant!

> >

> > ha,ha....

> >

> > The Valley Vegan............

> >

> > Marcy <imgreen03@> wrote:

> > Uh oh.........

> > OK, separate you two.

> >

> > Stay focused on the subject.

> >

> > Marcy

> >

> > -

> > metalscarab

> >

> > Saturday, July 21, 2007 2:20 PM

> > Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

> Homer

> >

> > Well if you ask someone Pagan about the Cerne Abbas giant

> they'll tell you it's about fertility.

> >

> > Why are you being so belligerent about this issue?

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> > -

> > Peter VV

> >

> > Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:36 PM

> > Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

> Homer

> >

> > As have many religious images from all religions, but in terms of

> faith, if you asked someone who believes in that faith they will

tell

> you that it symbolises the guy with a beard dying for your

> sins.....greedy heads of church are another story....

> >

> > The Valley Vegan.........

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Peter

> >

> > It still glorifies death, and, whether originally intended or

> not, it has been used as a symbol to incite people to fairly

haenous

> acts... crusades, inquisitions, etc...

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> > -

> > Peter VV

> >

> > Friday, July 20, 2007 6:57 PM

> > Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

> Homer

> >

> > I think that guys image refers to him dying for christians sins,

> not gloryfying nailing people to two pieces of wood ( as you

probably

> know!), as opposed to hunting animals......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan.............

> >

> > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > Hi Peter

> >

> > Are religious icons usually peaceful? A guy being nailed to a

> cross, for instance????

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> > -

> > Peter VV

> >

> > Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:41 PM

> > Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

> Homer

> >

> > What are its origins, when did women start sleeping on the giant

> phalanx?

> > Why has he got a club? doesnt seem very peaceful ffor a religious

> icon is it some kind of war god?

> >

> > The Valley Vegan..............

> >

> > heartwerk <jo.heartwork@> wrote:

> > That's the problem, you see.

> >

> > It is a religious site to Pagans.

> >

> > Pagans sleep on the Giant to help them become pregnant. It is

> > similar to Christians who go into a church and pray to their god

to

> > help them become pregnant!

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Is that giant actually a religious site?, sorry my my lack of

> > knowledge, I just thought it was an ancient superstition where

> women

> > went and sat on the giant whanger in a strange belief that they

> would

> > then fall pregnant?

> > >

> > > I still dont see the harm in it, especially as knowing the

> > british weather its probably gone by now.

> > > But then I am not the most reverent, and think most things are

> > fair game for ridicule......

> > >

> > > The Valley Vegan...............

> > >

> > > metalscarab <metalscarab@> wrote:

> > > Hi Jo

> > >

> > > But I do wonder why there isn't a similar Homer on the walkway

to

> > St Paul's

> > > Cathedral....

> > >

> > > BB

> > > Peter

> > >

> > > -

> > > " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > >

> > > Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:56 AM

> > > Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

> > >

> > > > They haven't actually touched the giant so presumably no harm

> has

> > > > been done. The one I was really annoyed about was the Long

Man.

> > > >

> > > > Jo

> > > >

> > > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > This made me laugh, sorry Pagans but it is funny, and only

> > > > temporary, so whats the problem?

> > > > >

> > > > > There is debate about the age of the Cerne Abbas Giant

> > > > >

> > > > > Aerial footage

> > > > >

> > > > > Pagans have pledged to perform " rain magic " to wash away a

> > cartoon

> > > > character painted next to their famous fertility symbol - the

> > Cerne

> > > > Abbas giant. A doughnut-brandishing Homer Simpson was painted

> next

> > > > to the giant on the hill above Cerne Abbas, Dorset, to

promote

> the

> > > > new Simpsons film. Many believe the ancient chalk outline of

the

> > > > naked, sexually aroused giant to be a symbol of ancient

> > > > spirituality. Many couples also believe the 180ft carving aids

> > > > fertility. I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > > something so ridiculous

> > > > >

> > > > > Ann Bryn-Evans

> > > > > Pagan Federation

> > > > >

> > > > > The painted Simpsons character has been painted with water-

> based

> > > > biodegradable paint which will wash away as soon as it rains.

> Ann

> > > > Bryn-Evans, joint Wessex district manager for The Pagan

> > Federation,

> > > > said: " We were hoping for some dry weather but I think I have

> > changed

> > > > my mind. " We'll be doing some rain magic to bring the rain

and

> > wash

> > > > it away. " She added: " I'm amazed they got permission to do

> > > > something so ridiculous. It's an area of scientific

> > > > interest. " 'Different and unusual' It is not the first time

the

> > > > giant has been used to advertise products. He has been used to

> > > > promote items as diverse as condoms, jeans and bicycles. Mike

> > Webb,

> > > > landlord of the New Inn in Cerne Abbas, said his staff were

> > amused by

> > > > the temporary addition to the village. " I think it is

different

> > and

> > > > unusual, " he said. " We've not heard any complaints here so

far,

> > but

> > > > I'm not sure many of the local people will know who Homer

> Simpson

> > > > is. " During World War II, the Cerne giant was disguised

> > > > > to prevent the Germans from using him as an aerial landmark.

> > > > Since then he has always been visible, receiving regular grass

> > > > trimming and a full re-chalking every 25 years. There is

debate

> > > > among experts about when the giant was created varying from

> > thousands

> > > > of years ago to as recently as the 17th Century.

> > > > >

> > > > > Peter H

> > > > >

> > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle

for

> > less,

> > > > sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > To send an email to -

> >

> > > >

July 24, 2007

Peter, the interview I heard was about his latest book on

translating the gospels.

Neil Douglas-Klotz's translations are poetic and don't sound like

they necessarily come from a deist tradition. Here are some of them in

case anyone else is interested...

based on the Aramaic version of Mark 12: 31

" Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. " :

Give birth to compassion for the nearest,

yet unfamiliar, aspect of your self,

as you do for the one outside

who feels like a stranger.

Give birth to the deepest warmth fo

the neighbor, inside and out,

as you do for your own

subconscious community,

inside and out.

The " lord's prayer " translated from aramaic

O, Birther of the Cosmos, focus your light within us -- make it

useful

Create your reign of unity now

Your one desire then acts with ours,

As in all light,

So in all forms,

Grant us what we need each day in bread and insight:

Loose the cords of mistakes binding us,

As we release the strands we hold of other's guilt.

Don't let surface things delude us,

But free us from what holds us back.

From you is born all ruling will,

The power and the life to do,

The song that beautifies all,

From age to age it renews.

I affirm this with my whole being.

At 8:50 AM +0100 7/24/07, metalscarab wrote:

Hi Yarrow

That's the author of the book I mentioned, so very likely the

person you've heard talking about it. The book really is a fascinating

read. I hope he'll eventually do more of the bible, as I'd be very

interested to see a different interpretation from someone who really

seems to understand the languages concerned.

BB

Peter

-

yarrow

Monday, July 23, 2007 9:40 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

Yes, recently I've heard interviews on the radio with someone

who's been translating from aramaic and discovered that much of the

original bible etc. depicts a totally different world view vs. the

usual translation, which was colored by the Greek and Roman world

views. It was Neil Douglas Klotz? something like that.

At 11:05 AM +0100 7/23/07, metalscarab wrote:

Hi Yarrow

You've reminded me of a book I got a long time ago, Prayers of

The Cosmos, which takes the Aramaic version of what we now call The

Lord's Prayer, and highlighted how poorly it had been translated -

just the first word translated as " Our Father " (Abwoon)

contains both a masculine and a feminine root.

BB

Peter

-

yarrow

Monday, July 23, 2007 7:56 AM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away

Homer

That's because we live in a patriarchal society, so every

prehistoric icon is interpreted from a patriarchal point of view. For

instance, carved figures that were once thought to represent men

holding weapons were reexamined and found to be women harvesting food.

The " hunter " aspect of prehistoric humans has been

overemphasized and the " gatherer " aspect largely

ignored.

Also, in English, the male pronoun has traditionally been used

exclusively, so even texts translated from different languages that

may have referred to female aspects of divinity often lost that

nuance.

Any female images were traditionally interpreted with respect to

our own culture, as helpers or lesser deities, not part of the power

structure. Any images of rulers or powerful beings were assumed to be

male.

At 12:28 PM +0100 7/22/07, Peter VV wrote:

I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male

dominated?

July 24, 2007

Hi Yarrow

Thanks - it's good to know he's done the whole of the gospels - I'll have to keep my eyes open for the book!

The preface to Prayers of The Cosmos gives a good bit of information about the poetic style, explaining that it is an attempt to get close to the nature of the Aramaic language. Unfortunately I have currently lent the book to a friend, so can't look up the exact explanation, but it made sense to me!

BB

Peter

-

yarrow

Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:29 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

Peter, the interview I heard was about his latest book on translating the gospels.

Neil Douglas-Klotz's translations are poetic and don't sound like they necessarily come from a deist tradition. Here are some of them in case anyone else is interested...

based on the Aramaic version of Mark 12: 31"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.": Give birth to compassion for the nearest,yet unfamiliar, aspect of your self,as you do for the one outsidewho feels like a stranger.Give birth to the deepest warmth fothe neighbor, inside and out,as you do for your ownsubconscious community,inside and out. The "lord's prayer" translated from aramaicO, Birther of the Cosmos, focus your light within us -- make it usefulCreate your reign of unity nowYour one desire then acts with ours,As in all light,So in all forms,Grant us what we need each day in bread and insight:Loose the cords of mistakes binding us,As we release the strands we hold of other's guilt.Don't let surface things delude us,But free us from what holds us back.From you is born all ruling will,The power and the life to do,The song that beautifies all,From age to age it renews.I affirm this with my whole being.

At 8:50 AM +0100 7/24/07, metalscarab wrote:

Hi Yarrow

That's the author of the book I mentioned, so very likely the person you've heard talking about it. The book really is a fascinating read. I hope he'll eventually do more of the bible, as I'd be very interested to see a different interpretation from someone who really seems to understand the languages concerned.

BB

Peter

-

yarrow

Monday, July 23, 2007 9:40 PM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

Yes, recently I've heard interviews on the radio with someone who's been translating from aramaic and discovered that much of the original bible etc. depicts a totally different world view vs. the usual translation, which was colored by the Greek and Roman world views. It was Neil Douglas Klotz? something like that.

At 11:05 AM +0100 7/23/07, metalscarab wrote:

Hi Yarrow

You've reminded me of a book I got a long time ago, Prayers of The Cosmos, which takes the Aramaic version of what we now call The Lord's Prayer, and highlighted how poorly it had been translated - just the first word translated as "Our Father" (Abwoon) contains both a masculine and a feminine root.

BB

Peter

-

yarrow

Monday, July 23, 2007 7:56 AM

Re: Re: Pagans wish for rain to wash away Homer

That's because we live in a patriarchal society, so every prehistoric icon is interpreted from a patriarchal point of view. For instance, carved figures that were once thought to represent men holding weapons were reexamined and found to be women harvesting food. The "hunter" aspect of prehistoric humans has been overemphasized and the "gatherer" aspect largely ignored.

Also, in English, the male pronoun has traditionally been used exclusively, so even texts translated from different languages that may have referred to female aspects of divinity often lost that nuance.

Any female images were traditionally interpreted with respect to our own culture, as helpers or lesser deities, not part of the power structure. Any images of rulers or powerful beings were assumed to be male.

At 12:28 PM +0100 7/22/07, Peter VV wrote:

I would imagine that a lot of religious iconry is male dominated?

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