leather, etc.

[Guest guest]

As I said before - who can tell the difference between leather and imitation leather?

 

Jo

 

-

connie bell

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:07 PM

Re: leather, etc.

The point I was making was if you have old non vegan products (especially old photos taken in days where most of us were unaware that an animal was ever used in the process), you could still consider yourself vegan , but in public I would not tell people I was Vegan .. I would tell them I was Vegetarian .. It is confusing enough to the public , having to explain the difference is between vegan and vegetarian .. so to wear leather out while saying I am vegan serves only a self fulfilling motive and not the greater good .. If you wish to keep your old leather shoes in the closet not adding to public misconceptions , then fine .. In addition leather of course comes from the direct result of the death of an animal .......and so does much wool ...... It is a misperception to believe many sheep are not killed and there wool removed (as it is obtained after death, the same as leather ) in addition many sheep and other wool , not to get specific ..goats..camels..llamas..alpaca..etc are purposely killed if there are not good producers, (those are young and would be used for their meat) or have gotten too old (considered useless all around by the industry) .. then they are basically starved and/or drowned .... those there are used by the industry (commercially) suffer abuse at the hands of man .. until deathmetalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

 

 

Hi Connie

 

So what's the difference? Particularly with wool, which doesn't actually result in the death of an animal, whereas gelatine does????

 

BB

Peter

 

-

connie bell

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:23 AM

Re: leather, etc.

I do think there is a great distinction between old photos..and wearing another animals skin wrapped around your body or feet ..If you have already own leather or wool,etc..I do agree you should refrain from using the word vegan until you are ready to part with them .. I was vegetarian 10 years prior to going vegan ..although I was vegan in my eating for the last 3 , I did still wear old leather shoes and wool coats .. when I no longer allowed them as any part of my wardrobe I then said I was vegan .. it does confuse people to wear a product non vegan while claiming to be one .. the leather as time goes by does begin to repulse you thinking of having that on your body (their skin) ..... so you may donate or discard them long before they wear out .. just my opinion Conniepeter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote:

 

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree there then. I still have photographs in my house produced with gelatine, so by your reasoning I am not vegan?

 

The Valley Vegan...........louis stott <lsstott (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

 

 

i degree with you there --- should be called veg till the leather has gone .....jo <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

Hi CorryI always think it best to use them up. It is not doing any harm to use themup, and is actually saving on wastage and landfill.I agree that eating a vegan diet facilitates spirituality. .Jo-"Corry" <apocalypse888 (AT) comcast (DOT) net>Monday, May 07, 2007 9:39 PM leather, etc.> Hi,>> As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I> also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was> addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.> I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,> and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a> vegan expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my> consciousness would evolve with such a diet, and I am finding this to> be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant> vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an ethical basis> at all, though I certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to> be cruel. Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> abandon my cats in either case.>> LVX,>> Corry>>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

HI Peter / Connie

 

Personally I have never met anyone who asks about shoes or photos etc. I don't think it is a problem. Most people I know are more interested in what goes into landfill.

 

BBJo

 

-

metalscarab

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:44 PM

Re: leather, etc.

 

Hi Connie

 

I think we're largely coming from the same direction.

 

Personally, I never found it a problem when I was still wearing my old leather shoes to simply explain that I'd had them before going vegan, and saw no reason to clog up landfills with perfectly usable products... and that when I replaced them, I would be doing so with a non-animal product. I don't honestly think that it caused much confusion - my ethical outlook remained consistent throughout (eco-friendly and animal-friendly), and the only people who wanted to argue the point were the same ones who came up with the classic "vegetables have feelings too" type arguments.

 

BB

Peter

 

-

connie bell

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:07 PM

Re: leather, etc.

The point I was making was if you have old non vegan products (especially old photos taken in days where most of us were unaware that an animal was ever used in the process), you could still consider yourself vegan , but in public I would not tell people I was Vegan .. I would tell them I was Vegetarian .. It is confusing enough to the public , having to explain the difference is between vegan and vegetarian .. so to wear leather out while saying I am vegan serves only a self fulfilling motive and not the greater good .. If you wish to keep your old leather shoes in the closet not adding to public misconceptions , then fine .. In addition leather of course comes from the direct result of the death of an animal .......and so does much wool ...... It is a misperception to believe many sheep are not killed and there wool removed (as it is obtained after death, the same as leather ) in addition many sheep and other wool , not to get specific ..goats..camels..llamas..alpaca..etc are purposely killed if there are not good producers, (those are young and would be used for their meat) or have gotten too old (considered useless all around by the industry) .. then they are basically starved and/or drowned .... those there are used by the industry (commercially) suffer abuse at the hands of man .. until deathmetalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

 

 

Hi Connie

 

So what's the difference? Particularly with wool, which doesn't actually result in the death of an animal, whereas gelatine does????

 

BB

Peter

 

-

connie bell

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:23 AM

Re: leather, etc.

I do think there is a great distinction between old photos..and wearing another animals skin wrapped around your body or feet ..If you have already own leather or wool,etc..I do agree you should refrain from using the word vegan until you are ready to part with them .. I was vegetarian 10 years prior to going vegan ..although I was vegan in my eating for the last 3 , I did still wear old leather shoes and wool coats .. when I no longer allowed them as any part of my wardrobe I then said I was vegan .. it does confuse people to wear a product non vegan while claiming to be one .. the leather as time goes by does begin to repulse you thinking of having that on your body (their skin) ..... so you may donate or discard them long before they wear out .. just my opinion Conniepeter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote:

 

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree there then. I still have photographs in my house produced with gelatine, so by your reasoning I am not vegan?

 

The Valley Vegan...........louis stott <lsstott (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

 

 

i degree with you there --- should be called veg till the leather has gone .....jo <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

Hi CorryI always think it best to use them up. It is not doing any harm to use themup, and is actually saving on wastage and landfill.I agree that eating a vegan diet facilitates spirituality. .Jo-"Corry" <apocalypse888 (AT) comcast (DOT) net>Monday, May 07, 2007 9:39 PM leather, etc.> Hi,>> As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I> also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was> addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.> I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,> and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a> vegan expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my> consciousness would evolve with such a diet, and I am finding this to> be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant> vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an ethical basis> at all, though I certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to> be cruel. Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> abandon my cats in either case.>> LVX,>> Corry>>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

You lost your bet then Louis! Today I walked into town and back -

yesterday I walked to the train station and back, and then to the next

village. I walk most days. I've spent most of my life walking. When

my children were young I walked them to school (2 miles away) and then

walked home and then back to school to collect them, and then home).

I actually enjoy walking. I haven't done as much over the last year

as I have problems with my knee and hip as my femur keeps twisting out

of position, but it will get better. I don't personally own a car.

 

Jo

 

, louis stott <lsstott wrote:

>

> thats only when im unwell . when im fit again i WILL START WALKING

AGAIN

> bet you dont walk any where ?

>

> jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

> Hi Peter

>

> I know Louis doesn't walk everywhere because he mentioned getting

a taxi!

>

> BB

> Jo

> -

> metalscarab

>

> Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:22 PM

> Re: leather, etc.

>

>

> Hi Louis

>

> I remember this discussion before. I'm still intrigued as to

whether you think it is possible for anyone to actually be vegan?

After all, pretty much everyone still has photographs from when they

were young which would have been produced with gelatine. It's

impossible to travel anything more than about 5 miles without using

animal products since all tyre glues are still animal based, so unless

you walk absolutely everywhere, you can't avoid that. Walpaper paste

and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely

bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you

live.

>

> BB

> Peter

> -

> louis stott

>

> Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM

> Re: leather, etc.

>

>

> i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have

leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather

>

> jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

> I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of

whether or not our

> shoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There are

> vegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You could

> always just dodge their question, while using up your leather

articles, by

> saying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'

>

> Jo

>

> -

> <yarrow

>

> Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AM

> Re: leather, etc.

>

> > At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:

> > .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with

> > >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before

> > >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though

> > >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-

> > >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst

> > >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the

> > >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a

> > >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not

> > >abandon my cats in either case.

> > >

> >

> > It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use

> > things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian

> > for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots

> > for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any

> > other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd

> > become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have

> > any around.

> > Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like

> > to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, " aha! " (I did come

> > across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word

> > entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to

> > rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.

> > Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,

> > but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)

> >

> > I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd

> > situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,

> > organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make

> > the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble

> > that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I

> > do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time

> > with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want

> > us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to

> > have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog

> > sleeps most of the day anyway.

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

> >

[Guest guest]

C,mon Peter, leave Louis alone, he`s doin the best he can to explain without you putting words in his mouth. Just agree to disagree, and lets encourage each other instead of being negative - that goes for you Louis too! Sorry folks, I get annoyed with vegans being negative towards each other. The Valley Vegan...............metalscarab <metalscarab wrote: Hi Louis I understand what you are saying. I am just struggling to see how anyone can actually be vegan under your definition. You've admitted you use taxis, therefore you use animal products (in the glue used to hold the tyres on the wheels). From what you've said in other posts, it appears that your definition of vegan is avoiding all things which can be clearly seen to come from animals, but things which are better hidden don't matter! BB Peter - louis stott Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:31 PM Re: leather, etc. thank you jo at least you try to understand my viws i wish bb peter could read what you put be lo . bb peter please read jo,s part . thank you jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: This is where Louis and a lot of others disagree. Some of us think that to be a vegan you need to adhere to a lifestyle where you do not contribute further to

animal suffering. If you have purchased items before going vegan then we feel it is best to use them up. Of course, if you buy leather after going vegan you should call yoursel veggie instead. Jo - louis stott Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM Re: leather, etc. i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan

and still have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM

+0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly

because way back then it was hard to find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> any around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't

make> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

I must admit when I meet someone new and they find out about my veganism, they always predicatably mention leather assuming that my shoes must beleather............ The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: HI Peter / Connie Personally I have never met anyone who asks about shoes or photos etc. I don't think it is a problem. Most

people I know are more interested in what goes into landfill. BBJo - metalscarab Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:44 PM Re: leather, etc. Hi Connie I think we're largely coming from the same

direction. Personally, I never found it a problem when I was still wearing my old leather shoes to simply explain that I'd had them before going vegan, and saw no reason to clog up landfills with perfectly usable products... and that when I replaced them, I would be doing so with a non-animal product. I don't honestly think that it caused much confusion - my ethical outlook remained consistent throughout (eco-friendly and animal-friendly), and the only people who wanted to argue the point were the same ones who came up with the classic "vegetables have feelings too" type arguments. BB Peter - connie bell Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:07 PM Re: leather, etc. The point I was making was if you have old non vegan products (especially old photos taken in days where most of us were unaware that an animal was ever used in the process), you could still consider yourself vegan , but in public I would not tell people I was Vegan .. I would tell them I was Vegetarian .. It is confusing enough to the public , having to explain the difference is between vegan and vegetarian .. so to wear leather out while saying I am vegan serves only a self

fulfilling motive and not the greater good .. If you wish to keep your old leather shoes in the closet not adding to public misconceptions , then fine .. In addition leather of course comes from the direct result of the death of an animal .......and so does much wool ...... It is a misperception to believe many sheep are not killed and there wool removed (as it is obtained after death, the same as leather ) in addition many sheep and other wool , not to get specific ..goats..camels..llamas..alpaca..etc are purposely killed if there are not good producers, (those are young and would be used for their meat) or have gotten too old (considered useless all around by the industry) .. then they are basically starved and/or drowned .... those there are used by the industry (commercially) suffer abuse at the hands of man .. until deathmetalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Connie So what's the difference? Particularly with wool, which doesn't actually result in the death of an animal, whereas gelatine does???? BB Peter - connie bell Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:23 AM Re: leather, etc. I do think there is a great distinction between old photos..and wearing another animals skin wrapped around your body or feet ..If you have already own leather or wool,etc..I do agree you should refrain from using the word vegan until you are ready to part with them .. I was vegetarian 10 years prior to going vegan ..although I was vegan in my eating for the last 3 , I did still wear old leather shoes and wool coats .. when I no longer allowed them as any part of my wardrobe I then said I was vegan .. it does confuse people to wear a product non vegan while claiming to be one .. the leather as time goes by does begin to repulse you thinking of having that on your body (their skin) ..... so you may donate or discard them long before they wear out

... just my opinion Conniepeter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote: I think we will have to agree to disagree there then. I still have photographs in my house produced with gelatine, so by your reasoning I am not vegan? The Valley Vegan...........louis stott <lsstott (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: i degree with you there --- should be called veg till the leather has gone .....jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: Hi CorryI always think it best to use them up. It is not doing any

harm to use themup, and is actually saving on wastage and landfill.I agree that eating a vegan diet facilitates spirituality. .Jo-"Corry" <apocalypse888 (AT) comcast (DOT) net>Monday, May 07, 2007 9:39 PM leather, etc.> Hi,>> As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I> also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was> addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.> I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,> and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a> vegan expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my> consciousness would evolve with such a diet,

and I am finding this to> be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant> vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an ethical basis> at all, though I certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to> be cruel. Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> abandon my cats in either case.>> LVX,>> Corry>>>> To

send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

Louis, No need to apologise for your speling we are all aware ofyour difficulties and dont mind. Dont let it hold you back, keep posting. The Valley Vegan............louis stott <lsstott wrote: hi peter bb thanks for reply but i think what i call vegan and what you lot call vegan will never agree ? im sorry bout my spelling metalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Louis I understand what you are saying. I am just struggling to see how anyone can actually be vegan under your definition. You've admitted you use taxis, therefore you use animal products (in the glue used to hold the tyres on the wheels). From what you've said in other posts, it appears that your definition of vegan is avoiding all things which can be clearly seen to come from animals, but things which are better hidden don't matter! BB Peter - louis stott Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:31 PM Re: leather, etc. thank you jo at least you try to understand my viws i wish bb peter could read what you put be lo . bb peter please read jo,s part . thank you jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: This is

where Louis and a lot of others disagree. Some of us think that to be a vegan you need to adhere to a lifestyle where you do not contribute further to animal suffering. If you have purchased items before going vegan then we feel it is best to use them up. Of course, if you buy leather after going vegan you should call yoursel veggie instead. Jo - louis stott Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM Re: leather, etc. i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to

use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> any around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the

company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

well done , but i bet your not ill like me lo i.e do you have beathing probs etc heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: You lost your bet then Louis! Today I walked into town and back -yesterday I walked to the train station and back, and then to the nextvillage. I walk most days. I've spent most of my life walking. Whenmy children were young I walked them to school (2 miles away) and thenwalked home and then back to school to collect them, and then home). I actually enjoy

walking. I haven't done as much over the last yearas I have problems with my knee and hip as my femur keeps twisting outof position, but it will get better. I don't personally own a car.Jo , louis stott <lsstott wrote:>> thats only when im unwell . when im fit again i WILL START WALKINGAGAIN > bet you dont walk any where ? > > jo <jo.heartwork wrote:> Hi Peter> > I know Louis doesn't walk everywhere because he mentioned gettinga taxi!> > BB> Jo> - > metalscarab > > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:22 PM> Re: leather, etc.> > > Hi Louis> > I

remember this discussion before. I'm still intrigued as towhether you think it is possible for anyone to actually be vegan?After all, pretty much everyone still has photographs from when theywere young which would have been produced with gelatine. It'simpossible to travel anything more than about 5 miles without usinganimal products since all tyre glues are still animal based, so unlessyou walk absolutely everywhere, you can't avoid that. Walpaper pasteand paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completelybare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place youlive.> > BB> Peter> - > louis stott > > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM> Re: leather, etc.> > > i get very upset with ppl who call

them selfs vegan and still haveleather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather > > jo <jo.heartwork wrote:> I often wonder why we think that people would be aware ofwhether or not our> shoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There are> vegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You could> always just dodge their question, while using up your leatherarticles, by> saying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'> > Jo> > -> <yarrow> > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AM> Re: leather, etc.> > > At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> > .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with>

> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> > >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> > >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> > >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> > >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> > >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> > >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> > >abandon my cats in either case.> > >> >> > It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> > things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> > for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> > for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find

any> > other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> > become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> > any around.> > Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> > to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> > across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> > entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> > rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> > Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> > but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)> >> > I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> > situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> > organize my life around) is

technically not my dog, so I don't make> > the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> > that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> > do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> > with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> > us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> > have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> > sleeps most of the day anyway.> >> >> > To send an email to - > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo

 

I feel it worth pointing out that you've *never* owned a car, and haven't

even got a driving license... which I suspect means you've done a heck of a

lot more walking in your life than most of us!

 

BB

Peter

 

 

-

" heartwerk " <jo.heartwork

 

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 8:03 PM

Re: leather, etc.

 

 

> You lost your bet then Louis! Today I walked into town and back -

> yesterday I walked to the train station and back, and then to the next

> village. I walk most days. I've spent most of my life walking. When

> my children were young I walked them to school (2 miles away) and then

> walked home and then back to school to collect them, and then home).

> I actually enjoy walking. I haven't done as much over the last year

> as I have problems with my knee and hip as my femur keeps twisting out

> of position, but it will get better. I don't personally own a car.

>

> Jo

>

> , louis stott <lsstott wrote:

> >

> > thats only when im unwell . when im fit again i WILL START WALKING

> AGAIN

> > bet you dont walk any where ?

> >

> > jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

> > Hi Peter

> >

> > I know Louis doesn't walk everywhere because he mentioned getting

> a taxi!

> >

> > BB

> > Jo

> > -

> > metalscarab

> >

> > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:22 PM

> > Re: leather, etc.

> >

> >

> > Hi Louis

> >

> > I remember this discussion before. I'm still intrigued as to

> whether you think it is possible for anyone to actually be vegan?

> After all, pretty much everyone still has photographs from when they

> were young which would have been produced with gelatine. It's

> impossible to travel anything more than about 5 miles without using

> animal products since all tyre glues are still animal based, so unless

> you walk absolutely everywhere, you can't avoid that. Walpaper paste

> and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely

> bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you

> live.

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> > -

> > louis stott

> >

> > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM

> > Re: leather, etc.

> >

> >

> > i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have

> leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather

> >

> > jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

> > I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of

> whether or not our

> > shoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There are

> > vegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You could

> > always just dodge their question, while using up your leather

> articles, by

> > saying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > -

> > <yarrow

> >

> > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AM

> > Re: leather, etc.

> >

> > > At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:

> > > .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with

> > > >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before

> > > >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though

> > > >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-

> > > >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst

> > > >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the

> > > >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a

> > > >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not

> > > >abandon my cats in either case.

> > > >

> > >

> > > It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use

> > > things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian

> > > for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots

> > > for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any

> > > other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd

> > > become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have

> > > any around.

> > > Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like

> > > to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, " aha! " (I did come

> > > across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word

> > > entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to

> > > rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.

> > > Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,

> > > but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)

> > >

> > > I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd

> > > situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,

> > > organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make

> > > the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble

> > > that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I

> > > do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time

> > > with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want

> > > us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to

> > > have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog

> > > sleeps most of the day anyway.

> > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I think you've misconstrued here. It is a discussion, and nobody is being nasty.

 

Jo

 

-

peter VV

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 8:47 PM

Re: leather, etc.

 

C,mon Peter, leave Louis alone, he`s doin the best he can to explain without you putting words in his mouth. Just agree to disagree, and lets encourage each other instead of being negative - that goes for you Louis too!

 

Sorry folks, I get annoyed with vegans being negative towards each other.

 

The Valley Vegan...............metalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

 

 

 

Hi Louis

 

I understand what you are saying. I am just struggling to see how anyone can actually be vegan under your definition. You've admitted you use taxis, therefore you use animal products (in the glue used to hold the tyres on the wheels). From what you've said in other posts, it appears that your definition of vegan is avoiding all things which can be clearly seen to come from animals, but things which are better hidden don't matter!

 

BB

Peter

 

-

louis stott

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:31 PM

Re: leather, etc.

 

thank you jo at least you try to understand my viws i wish bb peter could read what you put be lo .

 

bb

peter

 

please read jo,s part .

 

thank you jo <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

 

 

This is where Louis and a lot of others disagree. Some of us think that to be a vegan you need to adhere to a lifestyle where you do not contribute further to animal suffering. If you have purchased items before going vegan then we feel it is best to use them up. Of course, if you buy leather after going vegan you should call yoursel veggie instead.

 

Jo

 

-

louis stott

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM

Re: leather, etc.

 

i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

 

I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> any around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

That is true - maybe that's why the legs are wearing out :-)

 

BB

Jo

 

-

" metalscarab " <metalscarab

 

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 10:36 PM

Re: Re: leather, etc.

 

 

> Hi Jo

>

> I feel it worth pointing out that you've *never* owned a car, and haven't

> even got a driving license... which I suspect means you've done a heck of

a

> lot more walking in your life than most of us!

>

> BB

> Peter

>

>

> -

> " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork

>

> Wednesday, May 09, 2007 8:03 PM

> Re: leather, etc.

>

>

> > You lost your bet then Louis! Today I walked into town and back -

> > yesterday I walked to the train station and back, and then to the next

> > village. I walk most days. I've spent most of my life walking. When

> > my children were young I walked them to school (2 miles away) and then

> > walked home and then back to school to collect them, and then home).

> > I actually enjoy walking. I haven't done as much over the last year

> > as I have problems with my knee and hip as my femur keeps twisting out

> > of position, but it will get better. I don't personally own a car.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > , louis stott <lsstott wrote:

> > >

> > > thats only when im unwell . when im fit again i WILL START WALKING

> > AGAIN

> > > bet you dont walk any where ?

> > >

> > > jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

> > > Hi Peter

> > >

> > > I know Louis doesn't walk everywhere because he mentioned getting

> > a taxi!

> > >

> > > BB

> > > Jo

> > > -

> > > metalscarab

> > >

> > > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:22 PM

> > > Re: leather, etc.

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Louis

> > >

> > > I remember this discussion before. I'm still intrigued as to

> > whether you think it is possible for anyone to actually be vegan?

> > After all, pretty much everyone still has photographs from when they

> > were young which would have been produced with gelatine. It's

> > impossible to travel anything more than about 5 miles without using

> > animal products since all tyre glues are still animal based, so unless

> > you walk absolutely everywhere, you can't avoid that. Walpaper paste

> > and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely

> > bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you

> > live.

> > >

> > > BB

> > > Peter

> > > -

> > > louis stott

> > >

> > > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM

> > > Re: leather, etc.

> > >

> > >

> > > i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have

> > leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather

> > >

> > > jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

> > > I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of

> > whether or not our

> > > shoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There are

> > > vegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You could

> > > always just dodge their question, while using up your leather

> > articles, by

> > > saying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > -

> > > <yarrow

> > >

> > > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AM

> > > Re: leather, etc.

> > >

> > > > At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:

> > > > .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with

> > > > >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before

> > > > >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish,

though

> > > > >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-

> > > > >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common

amongst

> > > > >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of

the

> > > > >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a

> > > > >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not

> > > > >abandon my cats in either case.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use

> > > > things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been

vegetarian

> > > > for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking

boots

> > > > for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any

> > > > other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd

> > > > become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have

> > > > any around.

> > > > Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like

> > > > to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, " aha! " (I did come

> > > > across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v

word

> > > > entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to

> > > > rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.

> > > > Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,

> > > > but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant.

Sigh.)

> > > >

> > > > I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd

> > > > situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,

> > > > organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make

> > > > the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble

> > > > that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I

> > > > do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend

time

> > > > with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want

> > > > us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel

to

> > > > have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog

> > > > sleeps most of the day anyway.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > To send an email to

-

> > > >

[Guest guest]

It was you that was rude and 'bet I didn't walk anywhere' - I just

gave you the facts.

 

Jo

 

, louis stott <lsstott wrote:

>

> well done , but i bet your not ill like me lo i.e do you have

beathing probs etc

>

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> You lost your bet then Louis! Today I walked into town

and back -

> yesterday I walked to the train station and back, and then to the

next

> village. I walk most days. I've spent most of my life walking. When

> my children were young I walked them to school (2 miles away) and

then

> walked home and then back to school to collect them, and then

home).

> I actually enjoy walking. I haven't done as much over the last year

> as I have problems with my knee and hip as my femur keeps twisting

out

> of position, but it will get better. I don't personally own a car.

>

> Jo

>

> , louis stott <lsstott@> wrote:

> >

> > thats only when im unwell . when im fit again i WILL START WALKING

> AGAIN

> > bet you dont walk any where ?

> >

> > jo <jo.heartwork@> wrote:

> > Hi Peter

> >

> > I know Louis doesn't walk everywhere because he mentioned getting

> a taxi!

> >

> > BB

> > Jo

> > -

> > metalscarab

> >

> > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:22 PM

> > Re: leather, etc.

> >

> >

> > Hi Louis

> >

> > I remember this discussion before. I'm still intrigued as to

> whether you think it is possible for anyone to actually be vegan?

> After all, pretty much everyone still has photographs from when they

> were young which would have been produced with gelatine. It's

> impossible to travel anything more than about 5 miles without using

> animal products since all tyre glues are still animal based, so

unless

> you walk absolutely everywhere, you can't avoid that. Walpaper paste

> and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got

completely

> bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place

you

> live.

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

> > -

> > louis stott

> >

> > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM

> > Re: leather, etc.

> >

> >

> > i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have

> leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the

leather

> >

> > jo <jo.heartwork@> wrote:

> > I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of

> whether or not our

> > shoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There are

> > vegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You

could

> > always just dodge their question, while using up your leather

> articles, by

> > saying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > -

> > <yarrow@>

> >

> > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AM

> > Re: leather, etc.

> >

> > > At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:

> > > .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with

> > > >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought

before

> > > >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish,

though

> > > >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they

wear-

> > > >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common

amongst

> > > >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some

of the

> > > >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a

> > > >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I

will not

> > > >abandon my cats in either case.

> > > >

> > >

> > > It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to

use

> > > things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been

vegetarian

> > > for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking

boots

> > > for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to

find any

> > > other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I

realized I'd

> > > become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to

have

> > > any around.

> > > Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans

like

> > > to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, " aha! " (I did

come

> > > across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the

v word

> > > entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started

to

> > > rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my

feet.

> > > Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo

disappointed,

> > > but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant.

Sigh.)

> > >

> > > I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd

> > > situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and,

really,

> > > organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't

make

> > > the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her

kibble

> > > that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets,

but I

> > > do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't

spend time

> > > with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they

want

> > > us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is*

cruel to

> > > have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the

dog

> > > sleeps most of the day anyway.

> > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

 

> > >

[Guest guest]

how was i rude then ? i did not see that being rude at toll heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: It was you that was rude and 'bet I didn't walk anywhere' - I just gave you the facts.Jo , louis stott <lsstott wrote:>> well done , but i bet your not ill like me lo i.e do you have beathing probs etc > > >

heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:> You lost your bet then Louis! Today I walked into town and back -> yesterday I walked to the train station and back, and then to the next> village. I walk most days. I've spent most of my life walking. When> my children were young I walked them to school (2 miles away) and then> walked home and then back to school to collect them, and then home). > I actually enjoy walking. I haven't done as much over the last year> as I have problems with my knee and hip as my femur keeps twisting out> of position, but it will get better. I don't personally own a car.> > Jo> > , louis stott <lsstott@> wrote:> >> > thats only when im unwell . when im fit again i WILL START WALKING> AGAIN > > bet you dont walk

any where ? > > > > jo <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> > Hi Peter> > > > I know Louis doesn't walk everywhere because he mentioned getting> a taxi!> > > > BB> > Jo> > - > > metalscarab > > > > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:22 PM> > Re: leather, etc.> > > > > > Hi Louis> > > > I remember this discussion before. I'm still intrigued as to> whether you think it is possible for anyone to actually be vegan?> After all, pretty much everyone still has photographs from when they> were young which would have been produced with gelatine. It's> impossible to travel anything more than about 5 miles without using> animal

products since all tyre glues are still animal based, so unless> you walk absolutely everywhere, you can't avoid that. Walpaper paste> and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely> bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you> live.> > > > BB> > Peter> > - > > louis stott > > > > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM> > Re: leather, etc.> > > > > > i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have> leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather > > > > jo <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> > I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of>

whether or not our> > shoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There are> > vegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You could> > always just dodge their question, while using up your leather> articles, by> > saying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'> > > > Jo> > > > -> > <yarrow@>> > > > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AM> > Re: leather, etc.> > > > > At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> > > .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> > > >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> > > >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was

eating fish, though> > > >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> > > >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> > > >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> > > >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> > > >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> > > >abandon my cats in either case.> > > >> > >> > > It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> > > things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> > > for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> > > for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> > > other kind. But I

hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> > > become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> > > any around.> > > Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> > > to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> > > across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> > > entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> > > rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> > > Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> > > but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)> > >> > > I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> > > situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with

(and, really,> > > organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> > > the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> > > that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> > > do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> > > with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> > > us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> > > have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> > > sleeps most of the day anyway.> > >> > >> > > To send an email to - > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Louis

 

You said you 'bet I didn't walk anywhere'. Very presumptuous (?sp) of you, and, yes, it was rude.

 

Jo

 

-

louis stott

Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:45 AM

Re: Re: leather, etc.

 

how was i rude then ?

 

i did not see that being rude at toll

[Guest guest]

You said " bet you dont walk any where ?" which was not exactly polite? The Valley Vegan..........louis stott <lsstott wrote: how was i rude then ? i did not see that being rude at toll heartwerk <jo.heartwork > wrote: It was you that was rude and 'bet I didn't

walk anywhere' - I just gave you the facts.Jo , louis stott <lsstott wrote:>> well done , but i bet your not ill like me lo i.e do you have beathing probs etc > > > heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:> You lost your bet then Louis! Today I walked into town and back -> yesterday I walked to the train station and back, and then to the next> village. I walk most days. I've spent most of my life walking. When> my children were young I walked them to school (2 miles away) and then> walked home and then back to school to collect them, and then home). > I actually enjoy walking. I haven't done as much over the last year> as I have problems with my knee and hip as my femur keeps twisting out> of position, but it will get better. I don't

personally own a car.> > Jo> > , louis stott <lsstott@> wrote:> >> > thats only when im unwell . when im fit again i WILL START WALKING> AGAIN > > bet you dont walk any where ? > > > > jo <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> > Hi Peter> > > > I know Louis doesn't walk everywhere because he mentioned getting> a taxi!> > > > BB> > Jo> > - > > metalscarab > > > > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:22 PM> > Re: leather, etc.> > > > > > Hi Louis> > > > I remember this discussion before. I'm still intrigued

as to> whether you think it is possible for anyone to actually be vegan?> After all, pretty much everyone still has photographs from when they> were young which would have been produced with gelatine. It's> impossible to travel anything more than about 5 miles without using> animal products since all tyre glues are still animal based, so unless> you walk absolutely everywhere, you can't avoid that. Walpaper paste> and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely> bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you> live.> > > > BB> > Peter> > - > > louis stott > > > > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM> > Re: leather, etc.> >

> > > > i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have> leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather > > > > jo <jo.heartwork@> wrote:> > I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of> whether or not our> > shoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There are> > vegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You could> > always just dodge their question, while using up your leather> articles, by> > saying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'> > > > Jo> > > > -> > <yarrow@>> > > > Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AM> > Re:

leather, etc.> > > > > At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> > > .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> > > >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> > > >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> > > >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> > > >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> > > >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> > > >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> > > >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> > > >abandon my cats in either case.> > > >> > >> > > It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's

better to use> > > things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> > > for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> > > for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> > > other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> > > become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> > > any around.> > > Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> > > to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> > > across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> > > entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> > > rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> > > Nope, I

hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> > > but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)> > >> > > I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> > > situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> > > organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> > > the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> > > that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> > > do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> > > with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> > > us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> > > have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog>

> > sleeps most of the day anyway.> > >> > >> > > To send an email to - > > >

[Guest guest]

[[ must admit when I meet someone new and they find out about my veganism, they always predicatably mention leather assuming that my shoes must beleather............]]

 

My snappy comeback to that is "Cows aren't immortal." Implying of course that the shoes came from cows that died of natural causes. Of course that would be impossible in this country, but there are plenty of people in India who can say that.

 

[Guest guest]

[[it is confusing enough to the public , having to explain the difference is between vegan and vegetarian .. so to wear leather out while saying I am vegan serves only a self fulfilling motive and not the greater good .]]

 

Personally I try to get away from the labels. Instead I just people I don't eat meat, fish, dairy products or eggs. That's really better, IMHO, because it often leads to a discussion which can be educational for the other person. They will ask, "Why on earth don't you drink milk," etc., which creates the perfect opportunity to explain. Most people know nothing about modern agricultural practices and are shocked when they hear about it. OTOH just saying, "I'm a vegan" usually results in their quickly changing the subject.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

My snappy come back is " They are not , don't they look great ? " then I proceed to tell them they can buy them at Moo shoes , NYC in person or online .. I also tell them other vegn shoe websites.. It is probably because I have been a vegan longer then many here , my leather products have long since gone away .. many of which I did donate to the homelss .. I also think donating to the homeless is a wondeful idea , they also can use wool blankets, sweaters, and coats ... at least some good can come from bad ...Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote: [[ must admit when I meet someone new and they find out about my veganism, they always predicatably mention leather assuming that my shoes must beleather............]] My snappy comeback to that is "Cows aren't immortal." Implying of course that the shoes came from cows that died of natural causes. Of course that would be impossible in this country, but there are plenty of people in India who can say that.

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Games.