leather, etc.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I

also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was

addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.

I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,

and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a

vegan expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my

consciousness would evolve with such a diet, and I am finding this to

be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant

vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an ethical basis

at all, though I certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to

be cruel. Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with

the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before

becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though

not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-

out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst

new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the

previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a

common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not

abandon my cats in either case.

 

LVX,

 

Corry

[Guest guest]

At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:

..... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with

>the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before

>becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though

>not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-

>out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst

>new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the

>previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a

>common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not

>abandon my cats in either case.

>

 

It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use

things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian

for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots

for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any

other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd

become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have

any around.

Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like

to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, " aha! " (I did come

across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word

entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to

rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.

Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,

but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)

 

I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd

situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,

organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make

the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble

that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I

do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time

with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want

us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to

have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog

sleeps most of the day anyway.

[Guest guest]

Hi Corry

 

It's a frequent question, and you'll find many different attitudes.

Personally, when I went vegan, I made the decision to use those items until

they wore out. In doing so, I was not causing any more harm to the animals

involved, but I was also not filling up landfill with non-biodegradable

items which were still in perfectly good condition. In fact, 9 years on, I

still have a suit that I had before I went vegan which contains some wool.

When it wears out, I will replace it with a vegan one, but until then, its

continued use does no further harm, so I have no issues with continuing to

use it.

 

BB

Peter

 

-

" Corry " <apocalypse888

 

Monday, May 07, 2007 9:39 PM

leather, etc.

 

 

> Hi,

>

> As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I

> also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was

> addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.

> I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,

> and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a

> vegan expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my

> consciousness would evolve with such a diet, and I am finding this to

> be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant

> vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an ethical basis

> at all, though I certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to

> be cruel. Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with

> the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before

> becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though

> not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-

> out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst

> new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the

> previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a

> common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not

> abandon my cats in either case.

>

> LVX,

>

> Corry

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Corry

 

I always think it best to use them up. It is not doing any harm to use them

up, and is actually saving on wastage and landfill.

 

I agree that eating a vegan diet facilitates spirituality. .

 

Jo

 

-

" Corry " <apocalypse888

 

Monday, May 07, 2007 9:39 PM

leather, etc.

 

 

> Hi,

>

> As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I

> also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was

> addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.

> I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,

> and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a

> vegan expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my

> consciousness would evolve with such a diet, and I am finding this to

> be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant

> vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an ethical basis

> at all, though I certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to

> be cruel. Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with

> the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before

> becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though

> not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-

> out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst

> new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the

> previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a

> common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not

> abandon my cats in either case.

>

> LVX,

>

> Corry

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not our

shoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There are

vegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You could

always just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, by

saying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'

 

Jo

 

-

<yarrow

 

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AM

Re: leather, etc.

 

 

> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:

> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with

> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before

> >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though

> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-

> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst

> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the

> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a

> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not

> >abandon my cats in either case.

> >

>

> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use

> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian

> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots

> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any

> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd

> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have

> any around.

> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like

> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, " aha! " (I did come

> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word

> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to

> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.

> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,

> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)

>

> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd

> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,

> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make

> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble

> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I

> do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time

> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want

> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to

> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog

> sleeps most of the day anyway.

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork wrote: I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial

leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will

not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> any around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She

was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

i degree with you there --- should be called veg till the leather has gone .....jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Hi CorryI always think it best to use them up. It is not doing any harm to use themup, and is actually saving on wastage and landfill.I agree that eating a vegan diet facilitates spirituality. .Jo-"Corry" <apocalypse888 (AT) comcast (DOT) net>Monday, May 07, 2007 9:39 PM leather, etc.> Hi,>> As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I> also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was> addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.> I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,> and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a> vegan expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my> consciousness would evolve with such a diet, and I am finding this to> be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant> vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an ethical basis> at all, though I certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to> be cruel. Hence, early on in my

(dietary) veganism, I am faced with> the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> abandon my cats in either case.>> LVX,>> Corry>>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

Hi Louis

 

I remember this discussion before. I'm still intrigued as to whether you think it is possible for anyone to actually be vegan? After all, pretty much everyone still has photographs from when they were young which would have been produced with gelatine. It's impossible to travel anything more than about 5 miles without using animal products since all tyre glues are still animal based, so unless you walk absolutely everywhere, you can't avoid that. Walpaper paste and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you live.

 

BB

Peter

 

-

louis stott

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM

Re: leather, etc.

 

i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> any around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

This is where Louis and a lot of others disagree. Some of us think that to be a vegan you need to adhere to a lifestyle where you do not contribute further to animal suffering. If you have purchased items before going vegan then we feel it is best to use them up. Of course, if you buy leather after going vegan you should call yoursel veggie instead.

 

Jo

 

-

louis stott

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM

Re: leather, etc.

 

i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> any around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

hi peter i do see where you are coming from but let me try to explain what i call vegan and then you may under stand me , what i call vegan is someone who's dos not eat, wear, use any thing to do with tested on animals as much as poss i wot ever get in at car if it has leather seats , now as for photos etc i do not have any old ones in my place , the paint on my walls as i now is animal free if its not ill sue the ppl where i got it from who told me it was ok . as for glue im still doing my home work on this , , now what do you call vegan ?? louismetalscarab <metalscarab wrote: Hi Louis I remember this discussion before. I'm still intrigued as to whether you think it is possible for anyone to actually be vegan? After all, pretty much everyone still has photographs from when they were young which would have been produced with gelatine. It's impossible to travel anything more than about 5 miles without using animal products since all tyre glues are still animal based, so unless you walk absolutely everywhere, you can't avoid that. Wallpaper paste and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you live. BB Peter - louis stott Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM Re: leather, etc. i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork >

wrote: I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before>

>becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not

to have> any around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around

here who have pets but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

thank you jo at least you try to understand my viws i wish bb peter could read what you put be lo . bb peter please read jo,s part . thank you jo <jo.heartwork wrote: This is where Louis and a lot of others disagree. Some of us think that to be a vegan you need to adhere to a lifestyle where you do not contribute further to animal suffering. If you have

purchased items before going vegan then we feel it is best to use them up. Of course, if you buy leather after going vegan you should call yoursel veggie instead. Jo - louis stott Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM Re: leather, etc. i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have leather .. i think you

should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:>

..... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to

find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> any around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> the decision about what she

eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

[[Walpaper paste and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you live.]]

 

Unless you're lucky enough to live in a log cabin (some of which are quite fancy nowadays.)

 

[Guest guest]

well if thats the case ill be sueing the ppl where i got it from then Oom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub wrote: [[Walpaper paste and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you live.]] Unless you're lucky enough to live in a log cabin (some of which

are quite fancy nowadays.)

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free

account today.

[Guest guest]

Hi Peter

 

I know Louis doesn't walk everywhere because he mentioned getting a taxi!

 

BB

Jo

 

-

metalscarab

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:22 PM

Re: leather, etc.

 

Hi Louis

 

I remember this discussion before. I'm still intrigued as to whether you think it is possible for anyone to actually be vegan? After all, pretty much everyone still has photographs from when they were young which would have been produced with gelatine. It's impossible to travel anything more than about 5 miles without using animal products since all tyre glues are still animal based, so unless you walk absolutely everywhere, you can't avoid that. Walpaper paste and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you live.

 

BB

Peter

 

-

louis stott

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM

Re: leather, etc.

 

i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> any around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

Hi Louis

 

I don understand what you say, but I have the same opinion as Peter

BB.

 

Jo

 

, louis stott <lsstott wrote:

>

> thank you jo at least you try to understand my viws i wish bb peter

could read what you put be lo .

>

> bb

> peter

>

> please read jo,s part .

>

> thank you

>

> jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

> This is where Louis and a lot of others disagree. Some

of us think that to be a vegan you need to adhere to a lifestyle

where you do not contribute further to animal suffering. If you have

purchased items before going vegan then we feel it is best to use

them up. Of course, if you buy leather after going vegan you should

call yoursel veggie instead.

>

> Jo

> -

> louis stott

>

> Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM

> Re: leather, etc.

>

>

> i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still

have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the

leather

>

> jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

> I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of

whether or not our

> shoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There are

> vegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You

could

> always just dodge their question, while using up your leather

articles, by

> saying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'

>

> Jo

>

> -

> <yarrow

>

> Tuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AM

> Re: leather, etc.

>

> > At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:

> > .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with

> > >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before

> > >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish,

though

> > >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they

wear-

> > >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common

amongst

> > >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some

of the

> > >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a

> > >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will

not

> > >abandon my cats in either case.

> > >

> >

> > It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use

> > things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been

vegetarian

> > for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking

boots

> > for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find

any

> > other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized

I'd

> > become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have

> > any around.

> > Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans

like

> > to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, " aha! " (I did

come

> > across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v

word

> > entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to

> > rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my

feet.

> > Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo

disappointed,

> > but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant.

Sigh.)

> >

> > I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd

> > situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and,

really,

> > organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't

make

> > the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble

> > that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets,

but I

> > do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend

time

> > with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they

want

> > us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is*

cruel to

> > have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog

> > sleeps most of the day anyway.

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

 

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Connie

 

So what's the difference? Particularly with wool, which doesn't actually result in the death of an animal, whereas gelatine does????

 

BB

Peter

 

-

connie bell

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:23 AM

Re: leather, etc.

I do think there is a great distinction between old photos..and wearing another animals skin wrapped around your body or feet ..If you have already own leather or wool,etc..I do agree you should refrain from using the word vegan until you are ready to part with them .. I was vegetarian 10 years prior to going vegan ..although I was vegan in my eating for the last 3 , I did still wear old leather shoes and wool coats .. when I no longer allowed them as any part of my wardrobe I then said I was vegan .. it does confuse people to wear a product non vegan while claiming to be one .. the leather as time goes by does begin to repulse you thinking of having that on your body (their skin) ..... so you may donate or discard them long before they wear out .. just my opinion Conniepeter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

 

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree there then. I still have photographs in my house produced with gelatine, so by your reasoning I am not vegan?

 

The Valley Vegan...........louis stott <lsstott (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

 

 

i degree with you there --- should be called veg till the leather has gone .....jo <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

Hi CorryI always think it best to use them up. It is not doing any harm to use themup, and is actually saving on wastage and landfill.I agree that eating a vegan diet facilitates spirituality. .Jo-"Corry" <apocalypse888 (AT) comcast (DOT) net>Monday, May 07, 2007 9:39 PM leather, etc.> Hi,>> As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I> also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was> addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.> I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,> and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a> vegan expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my> consciousness would evolve with such a diet, and I am finding this to> be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant> vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an ethical basis> at all, though I certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to> be cruel. Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> abandon my cats in either case.>> LVX,>> Corry>>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

Hi Louis

 

I understand what you are saying. I am just struggling to see how anyone can actually be vegan under your definition. You've admitted you use taxis, therefore you use animal products (in the glue used to hold the tyres on the wheels). From what you've said in other posts, it appears that your definition of vegan is avoiding all things which can be clearly seen to come from animals, but things which are better hidden don't matter!

 

BB

Peter

 

-

louis stott

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:31 PM

Re: leather, etc.

 

thank you jo at least you try to understand my viws i wish bb peter could read what you put be lo .

 

bb

peter

 

please read jo,s part .

 

thank you jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

 

 

 

This is where Louis and a lot of others disagree. Some of us think that to be a vegan you need to adhere to a lifestyle where you do not contribute further to animal suffering. If you have purchased items before going vegan then we feel it is best to use them up. Of course, if you buy leather after going vegan you should call yoursel veggie instead.

 

Jo

 

-

louis stott

Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM

Re: leather, etc.

 

i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

 

I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> any around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

Ecospaints responded with the following answer : Hi Connie,All our products are suitable for vegans........... connie bell <caromiotk wrote: I am wondering if these paints are vegan : I have emailed them in hopes of a reply and will let the group know what i find out unless anyone here knows .. I have used organic paints before that claimed to be vegan .. not sure .. they are a bit harder to use but maybe

improved by now ..it has been 5 years or so .. anyone??http://www.ecospaints.com/index.htmOom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote: [[Walpaper paste and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you live.]] Unless you're lucky enough to live in a log cabin (some of which are quite fancy nowadays.) Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?Check out new cars at Autos.

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Autos.

[Guest guest]

The point I was making was if you have old non vegan products (especially old photos taken in days where most of us were unaware that an animal was ever used in the process), you could still consider yourself vegan , but in public I would not tell people I was Vegan .. I would tell them I was Vegetarian .. It is confusing enough to the public , having to explain the difference is between vegan and vegetarian .. so to wear leather out while saying I am vegan serves only a self fulfilling motive and not the greater good .. If you wish to keep your old leather shoes in the closet not adding to public misconceptions , then fine .. In addition leather of course comes from the direct result of the death of an animal .......and so does much wool ...... It is a misperception to believe many sheep are not killed and there wool removed (as it is obtained after death, the same as leather ) in addition many sheep and other wool , not to get

specific ..goats..camels..llamas..alpaca..etc are purposely killed if there are not good producers, (those are young and would be used for their meat) or have gotten too old (considered useless all around by the industry) .. then they are basically starved and/or drowned .... those there are used by the industry (commercially) suffer abuse at the hands of man .. until deathmetalscarab <metalscarab wrote: Hi Connie So what's the difference? Particularly with wool, which doesn't actually result in the death of an animal, whereas gelatine does???? BB Peter - connie bell Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:23 AM Re: leather, etc. I do think there is a great distinction between old photos..and wearing another animals skin wrapped around your body or feet ..If you have already own leather or wool,etc..I do agree you should refrain from using the word vegan until you are ready to part with them .. I was vegetarian 10 years prior to going vegan ..although I was vegan in my eating for the last 3 , I did still wear old leather shoes and wool coats .. when I no longer allowed them as any part of my wardrobe I then said I was vegan .. it does confuse people to wear a product non vegan while claiming to be one .. the leather as time goes by does begin to repulse you thinking of having that on your body (their skin) ..... so you may donate or discard them long before they wear out .. just my opinion Conniepeter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote: I think we will have to agree to disagree there then. I still have photographs in my house produced with gelatine, so by your reasoning I am not vegan? The Valley Vegan...........louis stott <lsstott (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: i degree with you there --- should be called veg till the leather has gone .....jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: Hi CorryI always think it best to use them up. It is not doing any harm to use themup, and is actually saving on wastage and landfill.I agree that eating a vegan diet facilitates spirituality. .Jo----- Original

Message -----"Corry" <apocalypse888 (AT) comcast (DOT) net>Monday, May 07, 2007 9:39 PM leather, etc.> Hi,>> As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I> also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was> addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.> I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,> and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a> vegan expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my> consciousness would evolve with such a diet, and I am finding this to> be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant> vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an

ethical basis> at all, though I certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to> be cruel. Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> abandon my cats in either case.>> LVX,>> Corry>>>> To send an email to - >

Links>>> Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. Peter H Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?Check out new cars at Autos.

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Autos.

[Guest guest]

Hi Connie

 

I think we're largely coming from the same direction.

 

Personally, I never found it a problem when I was still wearing my old leather shoes to simply explain that I'd had them before going vegan, and saw no reason to clog up landfills with perfectly usable products... and that when I replaced them, I would be doing so with a non-animal product. I don't honestly think that it caused much confusion - my ethical outlook remained consistent throughout (eco-friendly and animal-friendly), and the only people who wanted to argue the point were the same ones who came up with the classic "vegetables have feelings too" type arguments.

 

BB

Peter

 

-

connie bell

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:07 PM

Re: leather, etc.

The point I was making was if you have old non vegan products (especially old photos taken in days where most of us were unaware that an animal was ever used in the process), you could still consider yourself vegan , but in public I would not tell people I was Vegan .. I would tell them I was Vegetarian .. It is confusing enough to the public , having to explain the difference is between vegan and vegetarian .. so to wear leather out while saying I am vegan serves only a self fulfilling motive and not the greater good .. If you wish to keep your old leather shoes in the closet not adding to public misconceptions , then fine .. In addition leather of course comes from the direct result of the death of an animal .......and so does much wool ...... It is a misperception to believe many sheep are not killed and there wool removed (as it is obtained after death, the same as leather ) in addition many sheep and other wool , not to get specific ..goats..camels..llamas..alpaca..etc are purposely killed if there are not good producers, (those are young and would be used for their meat) or have gotten too old (considered useless all around by the industry) .. then they are basically starved and/or drowned .... those there are used by the industry (commercially) suffer abuse at the hands of man .. until deathmetalscarab <metalscarab wrote:

 

 

Hi Connie

 

So what's the difference? Particularly with wool, which doesn't actually result in the death of an animal, whereas gelatine does????

 

BB

Peter

 

-

connie bell

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:23 AM

Re: leather, etc.

I do think there is a great distinction between old photos..and wearing another animals skin wrapped around your body or feet ..If you have already own leather or wool,etc..I do agree you should refrain from using the word vegan until you are ready to part with them .. I was vegetarian 10 years prior to going vegan ..although I was vegan in my eating for the last 3 , I did still wear old leather shoes and wool coats .. when I no longer allowed them as any part of my wardrobe I then said I was vegan .. it does confuse people to wear a product non vegan while claiming to be one .. the leather as time goes by does begin to repulse you thinking of having that on your body (their skin) ..... so you may donate or discard them long before they wear out .. just my opinion Conniepeter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote:

 

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree there then. I still have photographs in my house produced with gelatine, so by your reasoning I am not vegan?

 

The Valley Vegan...........louis stott <lsstott (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

 

 

i degree with you there --- should be called veg till the leather has gone .....jo <jo.heartwork > wrote:

 

Hi CorryI always think it best to use them up. It is not doing any harm to use themup, and is actually saving on wastage and landfill.I agree that eating a vegan diet facilitates spirituality. .Jo-"Corry" <apocalypse888 (AT) comcast (DOT) net>Monday, May 07, 2007 9:39 PM leather, etc.> Hi,>> As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I> also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was> addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.> I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,> and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a> vegan expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my> consciousness would evolve with such a diet, and I am finding this to> be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant> vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an ethical basis> at all, though I certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to> be cruel. Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> abandon my cats in either case.>> LVX,>> Corry>>>> To send an email to - >

[Guest guest]

thats only when im unwell . when im fit again i WILL START WALKING AGAIN bet you dont walk any where ? jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Hi Peter I know Louis doesn't walk everywhere because he mentioned getting a taxi! BB Jo - metalscarab Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:22 PM Re: leather, etc. Hi Louis I remember this discussion before. I'm still intrigued as to whether you think it is possible for anyone to actually be vegan? After all, pretty much everyone still has photographs from when they were young which would have been produced

with gelatine. It's impossible to travel anything more than about 5 miles without using animal products since all tyre glues are still animal based, so unless you walk absolutely everywhere, you can't avoid that. Walpaper paste and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you live. BB Peter - louis stott Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM Re: leather, etc. i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> >becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>>

It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> any around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the

antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around here who have pets but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >

Links>>> Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today.

Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try

it now.

[Guest guest]

there you are bb peter please read this one connie bell <caromiotk wrote: Ecospaints responded with the following answer : Hi Connie,All our products are suitable for vegans........... connie bell <caromiotk > wrote: I am

wondering if these paints are vegan : I have emailed them in hopes of a reply and will let the group know what i find out unless anyone here knows .. I have used organic paints before that claimed to be vegan .. not sure .. they are a bit harder to use but maybe improved by now ..it has been 5 years or so .. anyone??http://www.ecospaints.com/index.htmOom Yaaqub <oomyaaqub (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote: [[Walpaper paste and paint is still tested on animals, so unless you've got completely bare walls, presumably you have some animal products in the place you live.]] Unless you're lucky enough to live in a log cabin (some of which are quite fancy nowadays.) Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?Check out new cars at Autos. Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?Check out new cars at Autos.

Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try

it now.

[Guest guest]

hi peter hope you read be lo cos you may understaind me a bit more !connie bell <caromiotk wrote: The point I was making was if you have old non vegan products (especially old photos taken in days where most of us were unaware that an animal was ever used in the process), you could still consider yourself vegan , but in public I would not tell people I was Vegan .. I would tell them I was Vegetarian .. It is confusing enough to the public , having to explain the

difference is between vegan and vegetarian .. so to wear leather out while saying I am vegan serves only a self fulfilling motive and not the greater good .. If you wish to keep your old leather shoes in the closet not adding to public misconceptions , then fine .. In addition leather of course comes from the direct result of the death of an animal .......and so does much wool ...... It is a misperception to believe many sheep are not killed and there wool removed (as it is obtained after death, the same as leather ) in addition many sheep and other wool , not to get specific ..goats..camels..llamas..alpaca..etc are purposely killed if there are not good producers, (those are young and would be used for their meat) or have gotten too old (considered useless all around by the industry) .. then they are basically starved and/or drowned .... those there are used by the industry (commercially) suffer abuse at the hands of man .. until

deathmetalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Connie So what's the difference? Particularly with wool, which doesn't actually result in the death of an animal, whereas gelatine does???? BB Peter - connie bell Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:23 AM Re: leather, etc. I do think there is a great distinction between old photos..and wearing another animals skin wrapped around your body or feet ..If you have already own leather or wool,etc..I do agree you should refrain from using the word vegan until you are ready to part with them .. I was vegetarian 10 years prior to going vegan ..although I was vegan in my eating for the last 3 , I did still wear old leather shoes and wool coats .. when I no longer allowed them as any part of my wardrobe I then said I was vegan .. it does confuse people to wear a product non vegan while claiming to be one .. the leather as time goes by does begin to repulse you thinking

of having that on your body (their skin) ..... so you may donate or discard them long before they wear out .. just my opinion Conniepeter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote: I think we will have to agree to disagree there then. I still have photographs in my house produced with gelatine, so by your reasoning I am not vegan? The Valley Vegan...........louis stott <lsstott (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: i degree with you there --- should be called veg till the leather has gone .....jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: Hi CorryI always think it best to use them up. It is not doing any harm to use themup, and is actually saving on wastage and landfill.I agree that eating a vegan diet facilitates spirituality. .Jo-"Corry" <apocalypse888 (AT) comcast (DOT) net>Monday, May 07, 2007 9:39 PM leather, etc.> Hi,>> As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I> also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was> addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.> I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,> and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a> vegan

expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my> consciousness would evolve with such a diet, and I am finding this to> be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant> vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an ethical basis> at all, though I certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to> be cruel. Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> abandon

my cats in either case.>> LVX,>> Corry>>>> To send an email to - >

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ill think on this one befor i reply to it metalscarab <metalscarab wrote: Hi Connie I think we're largely coming from the same direction. Personally, I never found it a problem when I was still wearing my old leather shoes to simply explain that I'd had them before going vegan, and saw no reason to clog

up landfills with perfectly usable products... and that when I replaced them, I would be doing so with a non-animal product. I don't honestly think that it caused much confusion - my ethical outlook remained consistent throughout (eco-friendly and animal-friendly), and the only people who wanted to argue the point were the same ones who came up with the classic "vegetables have feelings too" type arguments. BB Peter - connie bell Wednesday, May 09, 2007 1:07 PM Re: leather, etc. The point I was making was if you have old non vegan products (especially old photos taken in days where most of us were unaware that an animal was ever used in the process), you could still consider yourself vegan , but in public I would not tell people I was Vegan .. I would tell them I was Vegetarian .. It is confusing enough to the public , having to explain the difference is between vegan and vegetarian .. so to wear leather out while saying I am vegan serves only a self fulfilling motive and not the greater good .. If you wish to keep your old leather shoes in the closet not adding to public misconceptions , then fine .. In addition leather of course comes from the direct result of the

death of an animal .......and so does much wool ...... It is a misperception to believe many sheep are not killed and there wool removed (as it is obtained after death, the same as leather ) in addition many sheep and other wool , not to get specific ..goats..camels..llamas..alpaca..etc are purposely killed if there are not good producers, (those are young and would be used for their meat) or have gotten too old (considered useless all around by the industry) .. then they are basically starved and/or drowned .... those there are used by the industry (commercially) suffer abuse at the hands of man .. until deathmetalscarab <metalscarab > wrote: Hi Connie So what's the difference? Particularly with wool, which doesn't actually result in the death of an animal, whereas gelatine does???? BB Peter - connie bell Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:23 AM Re: leather, etc. I do think

there is a great distinction between old photos..and wearing another animals skin wrapped around your body or feet ..If you have already own leather or wool,etc..I do agree you should refrain from using the word vegan until you are ready to part with them .. I was vegetarian 10 years prior to going vegan ..although I was vegan in my eating for the last 3 , I did still wear old leather shoes and wool coats .. when I no longer allowed them as any part of my wardrobe I then said I was vegan .. it does confuse people to wear a product non vegan while claiming to be one .. the leather as time goes by does begin to repulse you thinking of having that on your body (their skin) ..... so you may donate or discard them long before they wear out .. just my opinion Conniepeter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote: I

think we will have to agree to disagree there then. I still have photographs in my house produced with gelatine, so by your reasoning I am not vegan? The Valley Vegan...........louis stott <lsstott (AT) (DOT) co.uk> wrote: i degree with you there --- should be called veg till the leather has gone .....jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: Hi CorryI always think it best to use them up. It is not doing any harm to use themup, and is actually saving on wastage and landfill.I agree that eating a vegan diet facilitates spirituality. .Jo-"Corry" <apocalypse888 (AT) comcast (DOT) net>Monday, May 07, 2007 9:39 PM leather, etc.> Hi,>> As I said, I just recently became a vegan. In the last 6 months I> also quit alcohol, caffiene, and tobacco, to all of which I was> addicted. I'm not sure why I became a vegan, except that I wanted to.> I am glad for the relief of animal suffering, improvement to health,> and lesser impact upon the environment, though I have not become a> vegan expressly for any of those reasons. I believed that my> consciousness would evolve with such a diet, and I am finding this to> be true. Hence, I find it unlikely that I will ever become a militant> vegan. I'm not sure that this decision was made upon an ethical basis> at all, though I

certainly believe the meat and dairy industries to> be cruel. Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> becoming vegan (I never became vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> abandon my cats in either case.>> LVX,>> Corry>>>> To send an email to - >

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hi peter bb thanks for reply but i think what i call vegan and what you lot call vegan will never agree ? im sorry bout my spelling metalscarab <metalscarab wrote: Hi Louis I understand what you are saying. I am just struggling to see how anyone can actually be vegan under your definition. You've admitted you use taxis, therefore you use animal

products (in the glue used to hold the tyres on the wheels). From what you've said in other posts, it appears that your definition of vegan is avoiding all things which can be clearly seen to come from animals, but things which are better hidden don't matter! BB Peter - louis stott Tuesday, May 08, 2007 4:31 PM Re:

leather, etc. thank you jo at least you try to understand my viws i wish bb peter could read what you put be lo . bb peter please read jo,s part . thank you jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: This is where Louis and a lot of others disagree. Some of us think that to be a vegan you need to adhere to a lifestyle where you do not contribute further to animal suffering. If you have purchased items before going vegan then we feel it is best to use them up. Of course, if you buy leather after going vegan you should call yoursel veggie instead. Jo - louis stott Tuesday, May 08, 2007 2:09 PM Re: leather, etc. i get very upset with ppl who call them selfs vegan and still have leather .. i think you should be called veg untill you BIN the leather jo <jo.heartwork > wrote: I often wonder why we think that people would be aware of whether or not ourshoes were leather. Vegetarian shoes look like leather. There arevegetarian 'leather' jackets and coats, wallets, belts etc. You couldalways just dodge their question, while using up your leather articles, bysaying 'haven't you heard of artificial leather?'Jo-<yarrowTuesday, May 08, 2007 8:40 AMRe: leather, etc.> At 8:39 PM +0000 5/7/07, Corry wrote:> .... Hence, early on in my (dietary) veganism, I am faced with> >the question of what to do with the leather shoes I bought before> >becoming vegan (I never became

vegetarian; I was eating fish, though> >not dairy, before becoming vegan). Do I wear them until they wear-> >out, or do I throw them out? I'm sure this question is common amongst> >new vegans, and it is new to me. Also, it seems as though some of the> >previous posts suggest that it is cruel to have pets. Is this a> >common or a minority sentiment amongst vegans? I am sure I will not> >abandon my cats in either case.> >>> It's an individual decision. Generally I think it's better to use> things until they wear out, if you can stand to. I've been vegetarian> for over 30 years (vegan for 18), and I did keep leather hiking boots> for some years, mostly because way back then it was hard to find any> other kind. But I hardly wore them, because gradually I realized I'd> become sensitive to the smell of leather and preferred not to have> any

around.> Another reason to get rid of leather is that militant nonvegans like> to look for vegetarians who wear leather and say, "aha!" (I did come> across one of these a couple years ago. I don't recall how the v word> entered the conversation, but as soon as it did the MNV started to> rant about vegetarians who wore leather, and looked down at my feet.> Nope, I hadn't worn leather for decades. She was soooo disappointed,> but even the lack of evidence did not stop the antivegan rant. Sigh.)>> I've always enjoyed the company of cats and dogs. I'm in an odd> situation, in that the dog I spend the most time with (and, really,> organize my life around) is technically not my dog, so I don't make> the decision about what she eats, and I end up feeding her kibble> that is not vegetarian. I don't think it's cruel to have pets, but I> do see a lot of people around here who have pets

but don't spend time> with them. Cats are a little more independent (or at least they want> us to think they are), but dogs are pack animals and it *is* cruel to> have a dog that's left alone for hours at a time, even if the dog> sleeps most of the day anyway.>>> To send an email to - >