Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

December 10, 2005

I must agree with this to a certain degree, why does someone celebrating their faith offend others? As long as its not compulsory to take part, why cant the ones who dont believe in it leave the ones that do enjoy themselves? The Valley Vegan.............. An increasingly vocal number of Christians are attacking what they say is a "war on Christmas" by those determined to enforce a rigorously neutral holiday season reflecting America's constitutional separation of church and state. Earlier this month, the official greetings card sent out by the president and first lady stirred up controversy for omitting any reference to Christmas. It has been 13 years since the last presidential card explicitly mentioned Christmas - in deference to other holidays at this time of year, like Hanukkah - but this didn't deter the critics. "The Bush administration has suffered a loss of will and... they have

capitulated to the worst elements in our culture," fumed William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. Some 80% of Americans describe themselves as Christian, and about 96% celebrate Christmas. Millions of them use the phrase "happy holidays" as a convenient way of showing respect for other faiths. Yet the row over the White House card has been just the tip of the iceberg in a year when the battle against secularism is being fought harder than ever by religious conservatives. 'Secularists gone wild' One leading home improvement chain, removed references to "holiday trees" from all its stores after being criticised by the American Family Association. We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays', we had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration Jennifer GirouxCampaigner The AFA and other groups are urging members to petition dozens of other major retailers that they accuse of stripping Christ from Christmas with phrases like "happy winter". The campaign against "secularists gone wild" is also being driven by people like John Gibson, a popular

anchor on the Fox News Channel. His book - The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday is Worse Than You Thought - collates examples of how political correctness is, he says, neutering "America's favourite holiday season". Meanwhile, at least 1,500 lawyers have volunteered to sue any town that tries to keep nativity scenes out of its holiday displays. About 8,000 public school teachers stand ready to report any principal who removes Silent Night from the choir programme. Such moves reflect the 1985 US Supreme Court "reindeer ruling". It said that town-square nativity scenes and the like were constitutional if balanced with secular symbols like Santa Claus, thus avoiding the appearance of state-endorsed religion. 'Well-organised extremists' The American Civil Liberties Union is an active defender of the religious freedoms guaranteed in the constitution, and is often the target of conservative

ire over the issue. Stores that refuse to acknowledge Christmas are being targeted by campaigners This week, Fran Quigley, head of the ACLU in Indiana, hit back with an editorial entitled: "How the ACLU didn't steal Christmas." He said the group was being demonised by well-organised "extremists" whose real agenda was to crush religious diversity, "and make a few bucks in the process". "Nowhere in the Sermon on the Mount did Jesus Christ ask that we celebrate his birth with narrow-mindedness and intolerance, especially for those who are already marginalised and persecuted," he wrote. He said the ACLU's mission for justice saw it work

hard to protect the rights of free religious expression for all people, including Christians. It is not a stance that cuts much ice with people like Jennifer Giroux, co-founder of Operation: Just Say "Merry Christmas". Her group has tapped into a current craze for rubberised wristbands, producing a green and red version emblazoned with the slogan "Just say 'merry Christmas'". What began as a local campaign has swiftly mushroomed. She has already sold 15,000 bracelets at $2 each. A further 43,000 are on their way to customers. "We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays'," she says. "We had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration. "People are tired of being told not to celebrate Christmas, they are tired of the ACLU. This is just parents saying they want to preserve Christ in Christmas." Peter H

Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now

December 10, 2005

See, in our whole founding (US) has been the strict idea that there should always be a separation of church and state. That of course has never been strictly followed, but the ideal was there and over the years there have been people who have stood up for it. Many of the people are not just trying to celebrate their Christian faith, but there is a whole religious right that is attempting to impose it on the rest of us. And the kind of Christianity that they believe in..it is not sufficient to just call yourself a Christian but you have to do so in line with their definition of Christianity. The thing that I object to are my tax dollars going to put up that murdered tree, and now they are back to calling it a Christmas tree. My tax dollars to decorate the entire White House and government buildings with Christmas. By the way my understanding is that Mrs. Bush has decorated with real fruit...hope it is being eaten somewhere along the line before it perishes. Perhaps if each and every religion or belief was allowed an equal amount of tax dollars to decorate the White House and governmental buildings for their holidays it would be more acceptable. As it is everyone has to pay the bill for Christmas and Easter holidays. But no tax dollars are going out for any other religious holidays that aren't Christian. I enjoy seeing the Christmas decorations and hearing the music. I am not a grinch. Over the years I have been appreciative of the clerks saying "Happy Holidays" rather than the "Happy Christmas." Since I am not a Christian and I don't celebrate Christmas I am never quite sure how to respond. It feels fake if I just smile and go on. If I say it back then maybe they aren't Christian either. If I say something that feels awkward too...have tried "Thank you I will have a wonderful New Year." It has nothing to do with seeing anything wrong with someone, anyone, celebrating their faith, but it is the assumption that everyone does the same. Hanukkah is a really minor holiday in the Jewish tradition so it seems to me to be ridiculous to have it intertwined with Christmas. Even with the 80%-96% listed below I don't think that many of those are doing Christmas from a really religious standpoint. The percentage of people that attend a Christian church is low...it is a tradition that has lost a lot of its religious significance and has simply become a fantastic way for the businesses to make money by making people feel guilty if they don't buy a lot. I enjoy the whole thing from afar (not the misery) and have noted that this doesn't make people happy at all. There is this huge excitement and build up to Dec. 25th and depression for them sets in the next day as they note that the presents for the children aren't being played with except for maybe a couple and that they themselves have not experienced that happiness they expected. Then the realization of the bills hits. I feel sad for them as the holiday didn't live up to their expectations. But bottom line is I don't want my tax dollars spent on a consumerism that hurts people in the end in the name of religion. I want the separation of church and state to include not using tax dollars to celebrate any religion. It needs to be spent on feeding, clothing, housing, & health care of those that need it. It needs to be spent on rebuilding our infrastructure and a gazillion other ways. What the stores do or do not do is their problem. If they erect Christmas trees fine. If they say Merry Christmas fine. I do understand though you can't be pure about it all for everything I buy year around ends up paying for the Christmas things that are put up in stores. Fox news sucks and the ACLU rocks. The test of a truly democratic society is how it protects its minority. Since you didn't give us the URL I can't go see who or where this article came from and their bent. Would you give me the site, pretty please? <smile>

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:25 AM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

I must agree with this to a certain degree, why does someone celebrating their faith offend others? As long as its not compulsory to take part, why cant the ones who dont believe in it leave the ones that do enjoy themselves?

The Valley Vegan..............

An increasingly vocal number of Christians are attacking what they say is a "war on Christmas" by those determined to enforce a rigorously neutral holiday season reflecting America's constitutional separation of church and state. Earlier this month, the official greetings card sent out by the president and first lady stirred up controversy for omitting any reference to Christmas. It has been 13 years since the last presidential card explicitly mentioned Christmas - in deference to other holidays at this time of year, like Hanukkah - but this didn't deter the critics. "The Bush administration has suffered a loss of will and... they have capitulated to the worst elements in our culture," fumed William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. Some 80% of Americans describe themselves as Christian, and about 96% celebrate Christmas. Millions of them use the phrase "happy holidays" as a convenient way of showing respect for other faiths. Yet the row over the White House card has been just the tip of the iceberg in a year when the battle against secularism is being fought harder than ever by religious conservatives. 'Secularists gone wild' One leading home improvement chain, removed references to "holiday trees" from all its stores after being criticised by the American Family Association.

We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays', we had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration

Jennifer GirouxCampaigner

The AFA and other groups are urging members to petition dozens of other major retailers that they accuse of stripping Christ from Christmas with phrases like "happy winter". The campaign against "secularists gone wild" is also being driven by people like John Gibson, a popular anchor on the Fox News Channel. His book - The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday is Worse Than You Thought - collates examples of how political correctness is, he says, neutering "America's favourite holiday season". Meanwhile, at least 1,500 lawyers have volunteered to sue any town that tries to keep nativity scenes out of its holiday displays. About 8,000 public school teachers stand ready to report any principal who removes Silent Night from the choir programme. Such moves reflect the 1985 US Supreme Court "reindeer ruling". It said that town-square nativity scenes and the like were constitutional if balanced with secular symbols like Santa Claus, thus avoiding the appearance of state-endorsed religion. 'Well-organised extremists' The American Civil Liberties Union is an active defender of the religious freedoms guaranteed in the constitution, and is often the target of conservative ire over the issue.

Stores that refuse to acknowledge Christmas are being targeted by campaigners

This week, Fran Quigley, head of the ACLU in Indiana, hit back with an editorial entitled: "How the ACLU didn't steal Christmas." He said the group was being demonised by well-organised "extremists" whose real agenda was to crush religious diversity, "and make a few bucks in the process". "Nowhere in the Sermon on the Mount did Jesus Christ ask that we celebrate his birth with narrow-mindedness and intolerance, especially for those who are already marginalised and persecuted," he wrote. He said the ACLU's mission for justice saw it work hard to protect the rights of free religious expression for all people, including Christians. It is not a stance that cuts much ice with people like Jennifer Giroux, co-founder of Operation: Just Say "Merry Christmas". Her group has tapped into a current craze for rubberised wristbands, producing a green and red version emblazoned with the slogan "Just say 'merry Christmas'". What began as a local campaign has swiftly mushroomed. She has already sold 15,000 bracelets at $2 each. A further 43,000 are on their way to customers. "We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays'," she says. "We had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration. "People are tired of being told not to celebrate Christmas, they are tired of the ACLU. This is just parents saying they want to preserve Christ in Christmas."

Peter H

Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now

December 10, 2005

Boy you write some long replies! my main bugbear is this PC society, no-one bats an eye lid when Diwali, Hannukah, or even Druid ceremonies around stonehenge come about, but try and have Christmas in our schools and they are not allowed. Instead of the traditional nativity play ( which used to be very cute with the infants school kids ) they have to try and avoid any religious imagery even in areas like mine where there are few, if no Jews/Muslims/etc, and quite frankly not that many Christians ( although still the major faith by a mile), we still have to avoid upseting minorities , even if there are none in the schools! ( in my area less than 5% of all schools are of non white origin). Now dont think that I am being racist ( unless you are English! - just a joke for Peter), but this PC society seems to put the minorities rights before the majority ( without even asking them!) and doesnt seem to try to find some middle ground. I believe it was a

famous Leutenant who once said " The needs of the many, outway the needs of the few" The URL is : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4512156.stm Live Long And Prosper The Valley Vegan...............linda <lindai81 wrote: See, in our whole founding (US) has been the strict idea that there should always be a separation of church and state. That of course has never been strictly followed, but the ideal was there and over the years there have been people who have stood up for it. Many of the people are not just trying to celebrate their Christian faith, but there is a whole religious

right that is attempting to impose it on the rest of us. And the kind of Christianity that they believe in..it is not sufficient to just call yourself a Christian but you have to do so in line with their definition of Christianity. The thing that I object to are my tax dollars going to put up that murdered tree, and now they are back to calling it a Christmas tree. My tax dollars to decorate the entire White House and government buildings with Christmas. By the way my understanding is that Mrs. Bush has decorated with real fruit...hope it is being eaten somewhere along the line before it perishes. Perhaps if each and every religion or belief was allowed an equal amount of tax dollars to decorate the White House and governmental buildings for their holidays it would be more acceptable. As it is everyone has to pay the bill for Christmas and Easter holidays. But no tax dollars are going out for any other religious holidays that aren't Christian. I enjoy seeing the Christmas

decorations and hearing the music. I am not a grinch. Over the years I have been appreciative of the clerks saying "Happy Holidays" rather than the "Happy Christmas." Since I am not a Christian and I don't celebrate Christmas I am never quite sure how to respond. It feels fake if I just smile and go on. If I say it back then maybe they aren't Christian either. If I say something that feels awkward too...have tried "Thank you I will have a wonderful New Year." It has nothing to do with seeing anything wrong with someone, anyone, celebrating their faith, but it is the assumption that everyone does the same. Hanukkah is a really minor holiday in the Jewish tradition so it seems to me to be ridiculous to have it intertwined with Christmas. Even with the 80%-96% listed below I don't think that many of those are doing Christmas from a really religious standpoint. The percentage of people that attend a Christian church is low...it is a tradition that has lost a lot of its

religious significance and has simply become a fantastic way for the businesses to make money by making people feel guilty if they don't buy a lot. I enjoy the whole thing from afar (not the misery) and have noted that this doesn't make people happy at all. There is this huge excitement and build up to Dec. 25th and depression for them sets in the next day as they note that the presents for the children aren't being played with except for maybe a couple and that they themselves have not experienced that happiness they expected. Then the realization of the bills hits. I feel sad for them as the holiday didn't live up to their expectations. But bottom line is I don't want my tax dollars spent on a consumerism that hurts people in the end in the name of religion. I want the separation of church and state to include not using tax dollars to celebrate any religion. It needs to be spent on feeding, clothing, housing, & health care of those that need it. It needs

to be spent on rebuilding our infrastructure and a gazillion other ways. What the stores do or do not do is their problem. If they erect Christmas trees fine. If they say Merry Christmas fine. I do understand though you can't be pure about it all for everything I buy year around ends up paying for the Christmas things that are put up in stores. Fox news sucks and the ACLU rocks. The test of a truly democratic society is how it protects its minority. Since you didn't give us the URL I can't go see who or where this article came from and their bent. Would you give me the site, pretty please? <smile> linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - peter hurd Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:25 AM Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas I must agree with this to a certain degree, why does someone celebrating their faith offend others? As long as its not compulsory to take part, why cant the ones who dont believe in it leave the ones that do enjoy themselves? The Valley Vegan.............. An increasingly vocal number of Christians are attacking what they say is a "war on Christmas" by those determined to enforce a rigorously neutral holiday season reflecting America's constitutional separation of church and state. Earlier this month, the official greetings card sent out by the president and first lady stirred up controversy for omitting any reference to Christmas. It has been 13 years since the last presidential card explicitly mentioned Christmas - in deference to other holidays at this time of year, like Hanukkah - but this didn't deter the critics. "The Bush administration has suffered a loss of will and... they have capitulated to the worst elements in our culture," fumed William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. Some 80% of Americans describe themselves as Christian, and about 96% celebrate Christmas. Millions of them use the phrase "happy holidays"

as a convenient way of showing respect for other faiths. Yet the row over the White House card has been just the tip of the iceberg in a year when the battle against secularism is being fought harder than ever by religious conservatives. 'Secularists gone wild' One leading home improvement chain, removed references to "holiday trees" from all its stores after being criticised by the American Family Association. We just wanted to

encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays', we had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration Jennifer GirouxCampaigner The AFA and other groups are urging members to petition dozens of other major retailers that they accuse of stripping Christ from Christmas with phrases like "happy winter". The campaign against "secularists gone wild" is also being driven by people like John Gibson, a popular anchor on the Fox News Channel. His book - The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday is Worse Than You Thought - collates examples of how political correctness is, he says, neutering "America's favourite holiday season". Meanwhile, at least

1,500 lawyers have volunteered to sue any town that tries to keep nativity scenes out of its holiday displays. About 8,000 public school teachers stand ready to report any principal who removes Silent Night from the choir programme. Such moves reflect the 1985 US Supreme Court "reindeer ruling". It said that town-square nativity scenes and the like were constitutional if balanced with secular symbols like Santa Claus, thus avoiding the appearance of state-endorsed religion. 'Well-organised extremists' The American Civil Liberties Union is an active defender of the religious freedoms guaranteed in the constitution, and is often the target of conservative ire over the issue. Stores that refuse to acknowledge Christmas are being targeted by campaigners This week, Fran Quigley, head of the ACLU in Indiana, hit back with an editorial entitled: "How the ACLU didn't steal Christmas." He said the group was being demonised by well-organised "extremists" whose real agenda was to crush religious diversity, "and make a few bucks in the process". "Nowhere in the Sermon on the Mount did Jesus Christ ask that we celebrate his birth with narrow-mindedness and intolerance, especially for those who are already marginalised and persecuted," he wrote. He said the ACLU's mission for justice saw it work hard to protect the rights of free religious expression for all people, including Christians. It is not a stance that cuts much ice with people like Jennifer Giroux, co-founder of Operation: Just Say "Merry Christmas". Her group has tapped into a current craze for

rubberised wristbands, producing a green and red version emblazoned with the slogan "Just say 'merry Christmas'". What began as a local campaign has swiftly mushroomed. She has already sold 15,000 bracelets at $2 each. A further 43,000 are on their way to customers. "We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays'," she says. "We had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration. "People are tired of being told not to celebrate Christmas, they are tired of the ACLU. This is just parents saying they want to preserve Christ in Christmas." Peter H Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now Peter H

Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now

December 10, 2005

I think Arthur Pendragon would floor you for saying that nobody bats an eyelid at the Druids at Stonehenge. He fought for about 20 years for Druids to be allowed back in Stonehenge, once they fenced it off. As fara s I am aware there are no Pagan or Druid rituals in school, so I'm not that worried about whether Christian ones are allowed. Personally, I don't mind who celebrates their own faith, but equality would be nice.

Jo

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:19 PM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

Boy you write some long replies! my main bugbear is this PC society, no-one bats an eye lid when Diwali, Hannukah, or even Druid ceremonies around stonehenge come about, but try and have Christmas in our schools and they are not allowed. Instead of the traditional nativity play ( which used to be very cute with the infants school kids ) they have to try and avoid any religious imagery even in areas like mine where there are few, if no Jews/Muslims/etc, and quite frankly not that many Christians ( although still the major faith by a mile), we still have to avoid upseting minorities , even if there are none in the schools! ( in my area less than 5% of all schools are of non white origin).

Now dont think that I am being racist ( unless you are English! - just a joke for Peter), but this PC society seems to put the minorities rights before the majority ( without even asking them!) and doesnt seem to try to find some middle ground.

I believe it was a famous Leutenant who once said " The needs of the many, outway the needs of the few"

The URL is :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4512156.stm

Live Long And Prosper

The Valley Vegan...............linda <lindai81 wrote:

See, in our whole founding (US) has been the strict idea that there should always be a separation of church and state. That of course has never been strictly followed, but the ideal was there and over the years there have been people who have stood up for it. Many of the people are not just trying to celebrate their Christian faith, but there is a whole religious right that is attempting to impose it on the rest of us. And the kind of Christianity that they believe in..it is not sufficient to just call yourself a Christian but you have to do so in line with their definition of Christianity. The thing that I object to are my tax dollars going to put up that murdered tree, and now they are back to calling it a Christmas tree. My tax dollars to decorate the entire White House and government buildings with Christmas. By the way my understanding is that Mrs. Bush has decorated with real fruit...hope it is being eaten somewhere along the line before it perishes. Perhaps if each and every religion or belief was allowed an equal amount of tax dollars to decorate the White House and governmental buildings for their holidays it would be more acceptable. As it is everyone has to pay the bill for Christmas and Easter holidays. But no tax dollars are going out for any other religious holidays that aren't Christian. I enjoy seeing the Christmas decorations and hearing the music. I am not a grinch. Over the years I have been appreciative of the clerks saying "Happy Holidays" rather than the "Happy Christmas." Since I am not a Christian and I don't celebrate Christmas I am never quite sure how to respond. It feels fake if I just smile and go on. If I say it back then maybe they aren't Christian either. If I say something that feels awkward too...have tried "Thank you I will have a wonderful New Year." It has nothing to do with seeing anything wrong with someone, anyone, celebrating their faith, but it is the assumption that everyone does the same. Hanukkah is a really minor holiday in the Jewish tradition so it seems to me to be ridiculous to have it intertwined with Christmas. Even with the 80%-96% listed below I don't think that many of those are doing Christmas from a really religious standpoint. The percentage of people that attend a Christian church is low...it is a tradition that has lost a lot of its religious significance and has simply become a fantastic way for the businesses to make money by making people feel guilty if they don't buy a lot. I enjoy the whole thing from afar (not the misery) and have noted that this doesn't make people happy at all. There is this huge excitement and build up to Dec. 25th and depression for them sets in the next day as they note that the presents for the children aren't being played with except for maybe a couple and that they themselves have not experienced that happiness they expected. Then the realization of the bills hits. I feel sad for them as the holiday didn't live up to their expectations. But bottom line is I don't want my tax dollars spent on a consumerism that hurts people in the end in the name of religion. I want the separation of church and state to include not using tax dollars to celebrate any religion. It needs to be spent on feeding, clothing, housing, & health care of those that need it. It needs to be spent on rebuilding our infrastructure and a gazillion other ways. What the stores do or do not do is their problem. If they erect Christmas trees fine. If they say Merry Christmas fine. I do understand though you can't be pure about it all for everything I buy year around ends up paying for the Christmas things that are put up in stores. Fox news sucks and the ACLU rocks. The test of a truly democratic society is how it protects its minority. Since you didn't give us the URL I can't go see who or where this article came from and their bent. Would you give me the site, pretty please? <smile>

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:25 AM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

I must agree with this to a certain degree, why does someone celebrating their faith offend others? As long as its not compulsory to take part, why cant the ones who dont believe in it leave the ones that do enjoy themselves?

The Valley Vegan..............

An increasingly vocal number of Christians are attacking what they say is a "war on Christmas" by those determined to enforce a rigorously neutral holiday season reflecting America's constitutional separation of church and state. Earlier this month, the official greetings card sent out by the president and first lady stirred up controversy for omitting any reference to Christmas. It has been 13 years since the last presidential card explicitly mentioned Christmas - in deference to other holidays at this time of year, like Hanukkah - but this didn't deter the critics. "The Bush administration has suffered a loss of will and... they have capitulated to the worst elements in our culture," fumed William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. Some 80% of Americans describe themselves as Christian, and about 96% celebrate Christmas. Millions of them use the phrase "happy holidays" as a convenient way of showing respect for other faiths. Yet the row over the White House card has been just the tip of the iceberg in a year when the battle against secularism is being fought harder than ever by religious conservatives. 'Secularists gone wild' One leading home improvement chain, removed references to "holiday trees" from all its stores after being criticised by the American Family Association.

We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays', we had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration

Jennifer GirouxCampaigner

The AFA and other groups are urging members to petition dozens of other major retailers that they accuse of stripping Christ from Christmas with phrases like "happy winter". The campaign against "secularists gone wild" is also being driven by people like John Gibson, a popular anchor on the Fox News Channel. His book - The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday is Worse Than You Thought - collates examples of how political correctness is, he says, neutering "America's favourite holiday season". Meanwhile, at least 1,500 lawyers have volunteered to sue any town that tries to keep nativity scenes out of its holiday displays. About 8,000 public school teachers stand ready to report any principal who removes Silent Night from the choir programme. Such moves reflect the 1985 US Supreme Court "reindeer ruling". It said that town-square nativity scenes and the like were constitutional if balanced with secular symbols like Santa Claus, thus avoiding the appearance of state-endorsed religion. 'Well-organised extremists' The American Civil Liberties Union is an active defender of the religious freedoms guaranteed in the constitution, and is often the target of conservative ire over the issue.

Stores that refuse to acknowledge Christmas are being targeted by campaigners

This week, Fran Quigley, head of the ACLU in Indiana, hit back with an editorial entitled: "How the ACLU didn't steal Christmas." He said the group was being demonised by well-organised "extremists" whose real agenda was to crush religious diversity, "and make a few bucks in the process". "Nowhere in the Sermon on the Mount did Jesus Christ ask that we celebrate his birth with narrow-mindedness and intolerance, especially for those who are already marginalised and persecuted," he wrote. He said the ACLU's mission for justice saw it work hard to protect the rights of free religious expression for all people, including Christians. It is not a stance that cuts much ice with people like Jennifer Giroux, co-founder of Operation: Just Say "Merry Christmas". Her group has tapped into a current craze for rubberised wristbands, producing a green and red version emblazoned with the slogan "Just say 'merry Christmas'". What began as a local campaign has swiftly mushroomed. She has already sold 15,000 bracelets at $2 each. A further 43,000 are on their way to customers. "We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays'," she says. "We had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration. "People are tired of being told not to celebrate Christmas, they are tired of the ACLU. This is just parents saying they want to preserve Christ in Christmas."

Peter H

Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now

Peter H

Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now

December 10, 2005

In my own roundabout way, thats more or less what I was trying to say.Councils/schools etc are so worried about offending someone ( without asking them ) that they seem to have lost the plot. In my opinion the PC gone mad society has lost all common sense and foregone equality. And as for the Druids, let face it to most of the public they are nothing more than a curiosity. I shall ask my daughter what they teach in RE these days, I know they are teaching about Hindus at the moment, but I doubt that they will learn anything about the minor beliefs. The Valley Vegan....................jo <jo.heartwork wrote: I think Arthur Pendragon would floor you for saying that nobody bats an eyelid at the Druids

at Stonehenge. He fought for about 20 years for Druids to be allowed back in Stonehenge, once they fenced it off. As far as I am aware there are no Pagan or Druid rituals in school, so I'm not that worried about whether Christian ones are allowed. Personally, I don't mind who celebrates their own faith, but equality would be nice. Jo - peter hurd Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:19 PM Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas Boy you write some long replies! my main bugbear is this PC society, no-one bats an eye lid when Diwali, Hannukah, or even Druid ceremonies around stonehenge come about, but try and have Christmas in our schools and they are not allowed. Instead of the traditional nativity play ( which used to be very cute with the infants school kids ) they have to try and avoid any religious imagery even in areas like mine where there are few, if no Jews/Muslims/etc, and quite frankly not that many Christians ( although still the major faith by a mile), we still have to avoid upseting minorities , even if there are none in the schools! ( in my area less than 5% of all schools are of non white origin). Now dont think that I am being racist ( unless you are English! - just a joke for Peter), but

this PC society seems to put the minorities rights before the majority ( without even asking them!) and doesnt seem to try to find some middle ground. I believe it was a famous Leutenant who once said " The needs of the many, outway the needs of the few" The URL is : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4512156.stm Live Long And Prosper The Valley Vegan...............linda <lindai81 wrote: See, in our whole founding (US) has been the strict idea that there should always be a separation of church and state. That of course has never been strictly followed, but the ideal was

there and over the years there have been people who have stood up for it. Many of the people are not just trying to celebrate their Christian faith, but there is a whole religious right that is attempting to impose it on the rest of us. And the kind of Christianity that they believe in..it is not sufficient to just call yourself a Christian but you have to do so in line with their definition of Christianity. The thing that I object to are my tax dollars going to put up that murdered tree, and now they are back to calling it a Christmas tree. My tax dollars to decorate the entire White House and government buildings with Christmas. By the way my understanding is that Mrs. Bush has decorated with real fruit...hope it is being eaten somewhere along the line before it perishes. Perhaps if each and every religion or belief was allowed an equal amount of tax dollars to decorate the White House and governmental buildings for their holidays it would be more acceptable. As it is

everyone has to pay the bill for Christmas and Easter holidays. But no tax dollars are going out for any other religious holidays that aren't Christian. I enjoy seeing the Christmas decorations and hearing the music. I am not a grinch. Over the years I have been appreciative of the clerks saying "Happy Holidays" rather than the "Happy Christmas." Since I am not a Christian and I don't celebrate Christmas I am never quite sure how to respond. It feels fake if I just smile and go on. If I say it back then maybe they aren't Christian either. If I say something that feels awkward too...have tried "Thank you I will have a wonderful New Year." It has nothing to do with seeing anything wrong with someone, anyone, celebrating their faith, but it is the assumption that everyone does the same. Hanukkah is a really minor holiday in the Jewish tradition so it seems to me to be ridiculous to have it intertwined with Christmas. Even with the 80%-96% listed below I don't think that many

of those are doing Christmas from a really religious standpoint. The percentage of people that attend a Christian church is low...it is a tradition that has lost a lot of its religious significance and has simply become a fantastic way for the businesses to make money by making people feel guilty if they don't buy a lot. I enjoy the whole thing from afar (not the misery) and have noted that this doesn't make people happy at all. There is this huge excitement and build up to Dec. 25th and depression for them sets in the next day as they note that the presents for the children aren't being played with except for maybe a couple and that they themselves have not experienced that happiness they expected. Then the realization of the bills hits. I feel sad for them as the holiday didn't live up to their expectations. But bottom line is I don't want my tax dollars spent on a consumerism that hurts people in the end in the name of religion. I want the separation of church and

state to include not using tax dollars to celebrate any religion. It needs to be spent on feeding, clothing, housing, & health care of those that need it. It needs to be spent on rebuilding our infrastructure and a gazillion other ways. What the stores do or do not do is their problem. If they erect Christmas trees fine. If they say Merry Christmas fine. I do understand though you can't be pure about it all for everything I buy year around ends up paying for the Christmas things that are put up in stores. Fox news sucks and the ACLU rocks. The test of a truly democratic society is how it protects its minority. Since you didn't give us the URL I can't go see who or where this article came from and their bent. Would you give me the site, pretty please? <smile> linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - peter hurd Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:25 AM Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas I must agree with this to a certain degree, why does someone celebrating their faith offend

others? As long as its not compulsory to take part, why cant the ones who dont believe in it leave the ones that do enjoy themselves? The Valley Vegan.............. An increasingly vocal number of Christians are attacking what they say is a "war on Christmas" by those determined to enforce a rigorously neutral holiday season reflecting America's constitutional separation of church and state. Earlier this month, the official greetings card sent out by the president and first lady stirred up controversy for omitting any reference to Christmas. It has been 13 years since the last presidential card explicitly mentioned Christmas - in deference to other holidays at this time of year, like Hanukkah - but this didn't deter the critics. "The Bush administration has suffered a loss of will and... they have capitulated to the worst elements in our culture," fumed William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for

Religious and Civil Rights. Some 80% of Americans describe themselves as Christian, and about 96% celebrate Christmas. Millions of them use the phrase "happy holidays" as a convenient way of showing respect for other faiths. Yet the row over the White House card has been just the tip of the iceberg in a year when the battle against secularism is being fought harder than ever by religious conservatives. 'Secularists gone wild' One leading home improvement chain, removed references to "holiday trees" from all its stores after being criticised by the American Family Association. We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays', we had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration Jennifer GirouxCampaigner The AFA and other groups are urging members to petition dozens of other major retailers that they accuse of stripping Christ from Christmas with phrases like "happy winter". The campaign against "secularists gone wild" is also being driven by people like John Gibson, a popular anchor on the Fox News Channel. His book - The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred

Christian Holiday is Worse Than You Thought - collates examples of how political correctness is, he says, neutering "America's favourite holiday season". Meanwhile, at least 1,500 lawyers have volunteered to sue any town that tries to keep nativity scenes out of its holiday displays. About 8,000 public school teachers stand ready to report any principal who removes Silent Night from the choir programme. Such moves reflect the 1985 US Supreme Court "reindeer ruling". It said that town-square nativity scenes and the like were constitutional if balanced with secular symbols like Santa Claus, thus avoiding the appearance of state-endorsed religion. 'Well-organised extremists' The American Civil Liberties Union is an active defender of the religious freedoms guaranteed in the constitution, and is often the target of conservative ire over the issue. Stores that refuse to acknowledge Christmas are being targeted by campaigners This week, Fran Quigley, head of the ACLU in Indiana, hit back with an editorial entitled: "How the ACLU didn't steal Christmas." He said the group was being demonised by well-organised "extremists" whose real agenda was to crush religious diversity, "and make a few bucks in the process". "Nowhere in the Sermon on the Mount did Jesus Christ ask that we celebrate his birth with narrow-mindedness and intolerance, especially for those who are already marginalised and persecuted," he wrote. He said the ACLU's mission for justice saw it work hard to protect the rights of free religious expression for all people, including Christians. It is not a

stance that cuts much ice with people like Jennifer Giroux, co-founder of Operation: Just Say "Merry Christmas". Her group has tapped into a current craze for rubberised wristbands, producing a green and red version emblazoned with the slogan "Just say 'merry Christmas'". What began as a local campaign has swiftly mushroomed. She has already sold 15,000 bracelets at $2 each. A further 43,000 are on their way to customers. "We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays'," she says. "We had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration. "People are tired of being told not to celebrate Christmas, they are tired of the ACLU. This is just parents saying they want to preserve Christ in Christmas." Peter H Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now Peter H Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now Peter H

Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

December 10, 2005

As I said I was objecting to use of tax dollars to erect Christmas stuff on government properties and use tax money to decorate the White House or any other governmental buildings. Most of the time in schools no tax monies are used. I also pointed out that a true democracy's test is in how it protects all people which does include minorities or the fringe element (as defined by the society). I have no idea of how this works over there. Besides, some people need to evolve and the only way they do that is by having to live in PC societies where there are actually guidelines for appropriate behavior and speech.

While the statement that the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" I agree with that, however, we are not talking about "needs" here. "Needs" are safety, food, shelter, jobs, health care, etc. I will have to look it up but my guess is that is what the lieutenant was referring to. That is not what this Christian thing is about.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 1:19 PM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

Boy you write some long replies! my main bugbear is this PC society, no-one bats an eye lid when Diwali, Hannukah, or even Druid ceremonies around stonehenge come about, but try and have Christmas in our schools and they are not allowed. Instead of the traditional nativity play ( which used to be very cute with the infants school kids ) they have to try and avoid any religious imagery even in areas like mine where there are few, if no Jews/Muslims/etc, and quite frankly not that many Christians ( although still the major faith by a mile), we still have to avoid upseting minorities , even if there are none in the schools! ( in my area less than 5% of all schools are of non white origin).

Now dont think that I am being racist ( unless you are English! - just a joke for Peter), but this PC society seems to put the minorities rights before the majority ( without even asking them!) and doesnt seem to try to find some middle ground.

I believe it was a famous Leutenant who once said " The needs of the many, outway the needs of the few"

The URL is :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4512156.stm

Live Long And Prosper

The Valley Vegan...............linda <lindai81 wrote:

See, in our whole founding (US) has been the strict idea that there should always be a separation of church and state. That of course has never been strictly followed, but the ideal was there and over the years there have been people who have stood up for it. Many of the people are not just trying to celebrate their Christian faith, but there is a whole religious right that is attempting to impose it on the rest of us. And the kind of Christianity that they believe in..it is not sufficient to just call yourself a Christian but you have to do so in line with their definition of Christianity. The thing that I object to are my tax dollars going to put up that murdered tree, and now they are back to calling it a Christmas tree. My tax dollars to decorate the entire White House and government buildings with Christmas. By the way my understanding is that Mrs. Bush has decorated with real fruit...hope it is being eaten somewhere along the line before it perishes. Perhaps if each and every religion or belief was allowed an equal amount of tax dollars to decorate the White House and governmental buildings for their holidays it would be more acceptable. As it is everyone has to pay the bill for Christmas and Easter holidays. But no tax dollars are going out for any other religious holidays that aren't Christian. I enjoy seeing the Christmas decorations and hearing the music. I am not a grinch. Over the years I have been appreciative of the clerks saying "Happy Holidays" rather than the "Happy Christmas." Since I am not a Christian and I don't celebrate Christmas I am never quite sure how to respond. It feels fake if I just smile and go on. If I say it back then maybe they aren't Christian either. If I say something that feels awkward too...have tried "Thank you I will have a wonderful New Year." It has nothing to do with seeing anything wrong with someone, anyone, celebrating their faith, but it is the assumption that everyone does the same. Hanukkah is a really minor holiday in the Jewish tradition so it seems to me to be ridiculous to have it intertwined with Christmas. Even with the 80%-96% listed below I don't think that many of those are doing Christmas from a really religious standpoint. The percentage of people that attend a Christian church is low...it is a tradition that has lost a lot of its religious significance and has simply become a fantastic way for the businesses to make money by making people feel guilty if they don't buy a lot. I enjoy the whole thing from afar (not the misery) and have noted that this doesn't make people happy at all. There is this huge excitement and build up to Dec. 25th and depression for them sets in the next day as they note that the presents for the children aren't being played with except for maybe a couple and that they themselves have not experienced that happiness they expected. Then the realization of the bills hits. I feel sad for them as the holiday didn't live up to their expectations. But bottom line is I don't want my tax dollars spent on a consumerism that hurts people in the end in the name of religion. I want the separation of church and state to include not using tax dollars to celebrate any religion. It needs to be spent on feeding, clothing, housing, & health care of those that need it. It needs to be spent on rebuilding our infrastructure and a gazillion other ways. What the stores do or do not do is their problem. If they erect Christmas trees fine. If they say Merry Christmas fine. I do understand though you can't be pure about it all for everything I buy year around ends up paying for the Christmas things that are put up in stores. Fox news sucks and the ACLU rocks. The test of a truly democratic society is how it protects its minority. Since you didn't give us the URL I can't go see who or where this article came from and their bent. Would you give me the site, pretty please? <smile>

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:25 AM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

I must agree with this to a certain degree, why does someone celebrating their faith offend others? As long as its not compulsory to take part, why cant the ones who dont believe in it leave the ones that do enjoy themselves?

The Valley Vegan..............

An increasingly vocal number of Christians are attacking what they say is a "war on Christmas" by those determined to enforce a rigorously neutral holiday season reflecting America's constitutional separation of church and state. Earlier this month, the official greetings card sent out by the president and first lady stirred up controversy for omitting any reference to Christmas. It has been 13 years since the last presidential card explicitly mentioned Christmas - in deference to other holidays at this time of year, like Hanukkah - but this didn't deter the critics. "The Bush administration has suffered a loss of will and... they have capitulated to the worst elements in our culture," fumed William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. Some 80% of Americans describe themselves as Christian, and about 96% celebrate Christmas. Millions of them use the phrase "happy holidays" as a convenient way of showing respect for other faiths. Yet the row over the White House card has been just the tip of the iceberg in a year when the battle against secularism is being fought harder than ever by religious conservatives. 'Secularists gone wild' One leading home improvement chain, removed references to "holiday trees" from all its stores after being criticised by the American Family Association.

We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays', we had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration

Jennifer GirouxCampaigner

The AFA and other groups are urging members to petition dozens of other major retailers that they accuse of stripping Christ from Christmas with phrases like "happy winter". The campaign against "secularists gone wild" is also being driven by people like John Gibson, a popular anchor on the Fox News Channel. His book - The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday is Worse Than You Thought - collates examples of how political correctness is, he says, neutering "America's favourite holiday season". Meanwhile, at least 1,500 lawyers have volunteered to sue any town that tries to keep nativity scenes out of its holiday displays. About 8,000 public school teachers stand ready to report any principal who removes Silent Night from the choir programme. Such moves reflect the 1985 US Supreme Court "reindeer ruling". It said that town-square nativity scenes and the like were constitutional if balanced with secular symbols like Santa Claus, thus avoiding the appearance of state-endorsed religion. 'Well-organised extremists' The American Civil Liberties Union is an active defender of the religious freedoms guaranteed in the constitution, and is often the target of conservative ire over the issue.

Stores that refuse to acknowledge Christmas are being targeted by campaigners

This week, Fran Quigley, head of the ACLU in Indiana, hit back with an editorial entitled: "How the ACLU didn't steal Christmas." He said the group was being demonised by well-organised "extremists" whose real agenda was to crush religious diversity, "and make a few bucks in the process". "Nowhere in the Sermon on the Mount did Jesus Christ ask that we celebrate his birth with narrow-mindedness and intolerance, especially for those who are already marginalised and persecuted," he wrote. He said the ACLU's mission for justice saw it work hard to protect the rights of free religious expression for all people, including Christians. It is not a stance that cuts much ice with people like Jennifer Giroux, co-founder of Operation: Just Say "Merry Christmas". Her group has tapped into a current craze for rubberised wristbands, producing a green and red version emblazoned with the slogan "Just say 'merry Christmas'". What began as a local campaign has swiftly mushroomed. She has already sold 15,000 bracelets at $2 each. A further 43,000 are on their way to customers. "We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays'," she says. "We had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration. "People are tired of being told not to celebrate Christmas, they are tired of the ACLU. This is just parents saying they want to preserve Christ in Christmas."

Peter H

Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now

Peter H

Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now

December 10, 2005

I agree with you, but it goes back to my ( badly made ) point that they should be catring for the majority, and the minority given the option to opt out. Not just blanket banning what is more of a tradition rather than a meaningful religious event. I hope that my kids are taught all about different religions/belief systems not just the major ones, it is something I would encourage. ( Do they have female Druids yet?) The Valley Vegan.............. Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter > Boy you write some long replies! my main bugbear is this PC society, no-one bats an eye lid when Diwali, Hannukah,

or > even Druid ceremonies around stonehenge come about, but try and have Christmas in our schools and they are not allowed. > Instead of the traditional nativity play ( which used to be very cute with the infants school kids ) they have to try and avoid > any religious imagery even in areas like mine where there are few, if no Jews/Muslims/etc, and quite frankly not that many > Christians ( although still the major faith by a mile), we still have to avoid upseting minorities , even if there are none in the > schools! ( in my area less than 5% of all schools are of non white origin). I do have issues with Christianity being so central to school life. It is still the case that every state school in the UK *has* to have a Christian prayer in assembly - it is up to parents to opt

their children out. I think it is terribly wrong to treat one religion as though it is *true*, and others as "alternative options". I think that a nativity play is fine, but it should be treated as a "this is a nice story", not as a "this is the absolute truth". Christianity *is* still overwhelmingly taught as truth in the basic running of schools in the UK, and it shouldn't be - there should be more balance of *all* religions. Why do they never do a play of the Oak king and Holly king? It's far more entertaining and has a greater authenticity in English culture. BB Peter Peter H

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December 10, 2005

Druids may be a minority - at work in my department there are three practicing Druids, and only one Christian who goes to church regularly.

Jo

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:56 PM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

In my own roundabout way, thats more or less what I was trying to say.Councils/schools etc are so worried about offending someone ( without asking them ) that they seem to have lost the plot. In my opinion the PC gone mad society has lost all common sense and foregone equality.

And as for the Druids, let face it to most of the public they are nothing more than a curiosity.

I shall ask my daughter what they teach in RE these days, I know they are teaching about Hindus at the moment, but I doubt that they will learn anything about the minor beliefs.

The Valley Vegan....................jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

I think Arthur Pendragon would floor you for saying that nobody bats an eyelid at the Druids at Stonehenge. He fought for about 20 years for Druids to be allowed back in Stonehenge, once they fenced it off. As far as I am aware there are no Pagan or Druid rituals in school, so I'm not that worried about whether Christian ones are allowed. Personally, I don't mind who celebrates their own faith, but equality would be nice.

Jo

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:19 PM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

Boy you write some long replies! my main bugbear is this PC society, no-one bats an eye lid when Diwali, Hannukah, or even Druid ceremonies around stonehenge come about, but try and have Christmas in our schools and they are not allowed. Instead of the traditional nativity play ( which used to be very cute with the infants school kids ) they have to try and avoid any religious imagery even in areas like mine where there are few, if no Jews/Muslims/etc, and quite frankly not that many Christians ( although still the major faith by a mile), we still have to avoid upseting minorities , even if there are none in the schools! ( in my area less than 5% of all schools are of non white origin).

Now dont think that I am being racist ( unless you are English! - just a joke for Peter), but this PC society seems to put the minorities rights before the majority ( without even asking them!) and doesnt seem to try to find some middle ground.

I believe it was a famous Leutenant who once said " The needs of the many, outway the needs of the few"

The URL is :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4512156.stm

Live Long And Prosper

The Valley Vegan...............linda <lindai81 wrote:

See, in our whole founding (US) has been the strict idea that there should always be a separation of church and state. That of course has never been strictly followed, but the ideal was there and over the years there have been people who have stood up for it. Many of the people are not just trying to celebrate their Christian faith, but there is a whole religious right that is attempting to impose it on the rest of us. And the kind of Christianity that they believe in..it is not sufficient to just call yourself a Christian but you have to do so in line with their definition of Christianity. The thing that I object to are my tax dollars going to put up that murdered tree, and now they are back to calling it a Christmas tree. My tax dollars to decorate the entire White House and government buildings with Christmas. By the way my understanding is that Mrs. Bush has decorated with real fruit...hope it is being eaten somewhere along the line before it perishes. Perhaps if each and every religion or belief was allowed an equal amount of tax dollars to decorate the White House and governmental buildings for their holidays it would be more acceptable. As it is everyone has to pay the bill for Christmas and Easter holidays. But no tax dollars are going out for any other religious holidays that aren't Christian. I enjoy seeing the Christmas decorations and hearing the music. I am not a grinch. Over the years I have been appreciative of the clerks saying "Happy Holidays" rather than the "Happy Christmas." Since I am not a Christian and I don't celebrate Christmas I am never quite sure how to respond. It feels fake if I just smile and go on. If I say it back then maybe they aren't Christian either. If I say something that feels awkward too...have tried "Thank you I will have a wonderful New Year." It has nothing to do with seeing anything wrong with someone, anyone, celebrating their faith, but it is the assumption that everyone does the same. Hanukkah is a really minor holiday in the Jewish tradition so it seems to me to be ridiculous to have it intertwined with Christmas. Even with the 80%-96% listed below I don't think that many of those are doing Christmas from a really religious standpoint. The percentage of people that attend a Christian church is low...it is a tradition that has lost a lot of its religious significance and has simply become a fantastic way for the businesses to make money by making people feel guilty if they don't buy a lot. I enjoy the whole thing from afar (not the misery) and have noted that this doesn't make people happy at all. There is this huge excitement and build up to Dec. 25th and depression for them sets in the next day as they note that the presents for the children aren't being played with except for maybe a couple and that they themselves have not experienced that happiness they expected. Then the realization of the bills hits. I feel sad for them as the holiday didn't live up to their expectations. But bottom line is I don't want my tax dollars spent on a consumerism that hurts people in the end in the name of religion. I want the separation of church and state to include not using tax dollars to celebrate any religion. It needs to be spent on feeding, clothing, housing, & health care of those that need it. It needs to be spent on rebuilding our infrastructure and a gazillion other ways. What the stores do or do not do is their problem. If they erect Christmas trees fine. If they say Merry Christmas fine. I do understand though you can't be pure about it all for everything I buy year around ends up paying for the Christmas things that are put up in stores. Fox news sucks and the ACLU rocks. The test of a truly democratic society is how it protects its minority. Since you didn't give us the URL I can't go see who or where this article came from and their bent. Would you give me the site, pretty please? <smile>

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:25 AM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

I must agree with this to a certain degree, why does someone celebrating their faith offend others? As long as its not compulsory to take part, why cant the ones who dont believe in it leave the ones that do enjoy themselves?

The Valley Vegan..............

An increasingly vocal number of Christians are attacking what they say is a "war on Christmas" by those determined to enforce a rigorously neutral holiday season reflecting America's constitutional separation of church and state. Earlier this month, the official greetings card sent out by the president and first lady stirred up controversy for omitting any reference to Christmas. It has been 13 years since the last presidential card explicitly mentioned Christmas - in deference to other holidays at this time of year, like Hanukkah - but this didn't deter the critics. "The Bush administration has suffered a loss of will and... they have capitulated to the worst elements in our culture," fumed William Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights. Some 80% of Americans describe themselves as Christian, and about 96% celebrate Christmas. Millions of them use the phrase "happy holidays" as a convenient way of showing respect for other faiths. Yet the row over the White House card has been just the tip of the iceberg in a year when the battle against secularism is being fought harder than ever by religious conservatives. 'Secularists gone wild' One leading home improvement chain, removed references to "holiday trees" from all its stores after being criticised by the American Family Association.

We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays', we had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration

Jennifer GirouxCampaigner

The AFA and other groups are urging members to petition dozens of other major retailers that they accuse of stripping Christ from Christmas with phrases like "happy winter". The campaign against "secularists gone wild" is also being driven by people like John Gibson, a popular anchor on the Fox News Channel. His book - The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday is Worse Than You Thought - collates examples of how political correctness is, he says, neutering "America's favourite holiday season". Meanwhile, at least 1,500 lawyers have volunteered to sue any town that tries to keep nativity scenes out of its holiday displays. About 8,000 public school teachers stand ready to report any principal who removes Silent Night from the choir programme. Such moves reflect the 1985 US Supreme Court "reindeer ruling". It said that town-square nativity scenes and the like were constitutional if balanced with secular symbols like Santa Claus, thus avoiding the appearance of state-endorsed religion. 'Well-organised extremists' The American Civil Liberties Union is an active defender of the religious freedoms guaranteed in the constitution, and is often the target of conservative ire over the issue.

Stores that refuse to acknowledge Christmas are being targeted by campaigners

This week, Fran Quigley, head of the ACLU in Indiana, hit back with an editorial entitled: "How the ACLU didn't steal Christmas." He said the group was being demonised by well-organised "extremists" whose real agenda was to crush religious diversity, "and make a few bucks in the process". "Nowhere in the Sermon on the Mount did Jesus Christ ask that we celebrate his birth with narrow-mindedness and intolerance, especially for those who are already marginalised and persecuted," he wrote. He said the ACLU's mission for justice saw it work hard to protect the rights of free religious expression for all people, including Christians. It is not a stance that cuts much ice with people like Jennifer Giroux, co-founder of Operation: Just Say "Merry Christmas". Her group has tapped into a current craze for rubberised wristbands, producing a green and red version emblazoned with the slogan "Just say 'merry Christmas'". What began as a local campaign has swiftly mushroomed. She has already sold 15,000 bracelets at $2 each. A further 43,000 are on their way to customers. "We just wanted to encourage Christians to have the courage to say 'merry Christmas' instead of 'happy holidays'," she says. "We had no idea that it would tap into a national frustration. "People are tired of being told not to celebrate Christmas, they are tired of the ACLU. This is just parents saying they want to preserve Christ in Christmas."

Peter H

Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now

Peter H

Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now

Peter H

Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

December 10, 2005

Thanks for sending the link. The American Family Association: The American Family Association exists to motivate and equip citizens to change the culture to reflect Biblical truth and traditional family values. http://www.afa.net/# It says that it promotes traditional family values...nothing wrong with that per se except that they determine what is traditional and then according to their interpretation of the Christian Bible. Hmmm, kind of reminds me of what we are complaining about other countries are doing...we were complaining about that with Afghanistan. Fox news is so incredibly bias it isn't worth one's time to watch it as they definitely slant things the way they want it. I could give you examples, but that would be too lengthy. It is obvious that the book Gibson wrote was bias to begin with. Fox news is very much like Limbaugh IMHO. And you can darn well count on the fact that those 1,500 lawyers are coming from the Christian right. I have heard of that group already, just can't call up where it came from. As the article says the Supreme Court already ruled on the fact if Christian symbols are going to be used it has to be balanced so it doesn't appear to be state sponsored. Keep noting that the objection is only about putting Christian symbols up on governmental property and that includes town squares.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 1:19 PM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

Boy you write some long replies! my main bugbear is this PC society, no-one bats an eye lid when Diwali, Hannukah, or even Druid ceremonies around stonehenge come about, but try and have Christmas in our schools and they are not allowed. Instead of the traditional nativity play ( which used to be very cute with the infants school kids ) they have to try and avoid any religious imagery even in areas like mine where there are few, if no Jews/Muslims/etc, and quite frankly not that many Christians ( although still the major faith by a mile), we still have to avoid upseting minorities , even if there are none in the schools! ( in my area less than 5% of all schools are of non white origin).

Now dont think that I am being racist ( unless you are English! - just a joke for Peter), but this PC society seems to put the minorities rights before the majority ( without even asking them!) and doesnt seem to try to find some middle ground.

I believe it was a famous Leutenant who once said " The needs of the many, outway the needs of the few"

The URL is :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4512156.stm

December 10, 2005

Oh yes - Emma Restall Orr formed the Druid Network. Druids can be Pagan or Christian (or anything else really) but nowadays most are Pagan. She wanted to form a body to celebrate in a definitely Pagan way. I would guess its about 50/50 for male and female. I guess I'm a Druid as I belong to the Network and celebrate the 8 festivals with a Bardic Group.

Jo

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 10:13 PM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

I agree with you, but it goes back to my ( badly made ) point that they should be catring for the majority, and the minority given the option to opt out. Not just blanket banning what is more of a tradition rather than a meaningful religious event.

I hope that my kids are taught all about different religions/belief systems not just the major ones, it is something I would encourage.

( Do they have female Druids yet?)

The Valley Vegan..............

Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Peter

> Boy you write some long replies! my main bugbear is this PC society, no-one bats an eye lid when Diwali, Hannukah, or

> even Druid ceremonies around stonehenge come about, but try and have Christmas in our schools and they are not allowed.

> Instead of the traditional nativity play ( which used to be very cute with the infants school kids ) they have to try and avoid

> any religious imagery even in areas like mine where there are few, if no Jews/Muslims/etc, and quite frankly not that many

> Christians ( although still the major faith by a mile), we still have to avoid upseting minorities , even if there are none in the

> schools! ( in my area less than 5% of all schools are of non white origin).

I do have issues with Christianity being so central to school life. It is still the case that every state school in the UK *has* to have a Christian prayer in assembly - it is up to parents to opt their children out. I think it is terribly wrong to treat one religion as though it is *true*, and others as "alternative options". I think that a nativity play is fine, but it should be treated as a "this is a nice story", not as a "this is the absolute truth". Christianity *is* still overwhelmingly taught as truth in the basic running of schools in the UK, and it shouldn't be - there should be more balance of *all* religions. Why do they never do a play of the Oak king and Holly king? It's far more entertaining and has a greater authenticity in English culture.

BB

Peter

Peter H

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December 10, 2005

Thats good to hear. The way I`ve seen them historically portrayed is basically a male order who practised human sacrifice. Know any good web info I can look at? being welsh I should take an interest. The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Oh yes - Emma Restall Orr formed the Druid Network. Druids can be Pagan or Christian (or anything else really) but nowadays most are Pagan. She wanted to form a body to celebrate in a definitely Pagan way. I would guess its about 50/50 for male and female. I guess I'm a Druid as I belong to the Network and celebrate the 8 festivals with a Bardic Group. Jo - peter hurd Saturday, December 10, 2005 10:13 PM Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas I agree with you, but it goes back to my ( badly made ) point that they should be catring for the majority, and the minority given the option to opt out. Not just blanket banning what is more of a tradition rather than a meaningful

religious event. I hope that my kids are taught all about different religions/belief systems not just the major ones, it is something I would encourage. ( Do they have female Druids yet?) The Valley Vegan.............. Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter > Boy you write some long replies! my main bugbear is this PC society, no-one bats an eye lid when Diwali, Hannukah, or > even Druid ceremonies around stonehenge come about, but try and have Christmas in our schools and they are not allowed. > Instead of the traditional nativity play ( which used to be very cute

with the infants school kids ) they have to try and avoid > any religious imagery even in areas like mine where there are few, if no Jews/Muslims/etc, and quite frankly not that many > Christians ( although still the major faith by a mile), we still have to avoid upseting minorities , even if there are none in the > schools! ( in my area less than 5% of all schools are of non white origin). I do have issues with Christianity being so central to school life. It is still the case that every state school in the UK *has* to have a Christian prayer in assembly - it is up to parents to opt their children out. I think it is terribly wrong to treat one religion as though it is *true*, and others as "alternative options". I think that a nativity play is fine, but it should be treated as a "this is a nice story", not as a "this

is the absolute truth". Christianity *is* still overwhelmingly taught as truth in the basic running of schools in the UK, and it shouldn't be - there should be more balance of *all* religions. Why do they never do a play of the Oak king and Holly king? It's far more entertaining and has a greater authenticity in English culture. BB Peter Peter H To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Security Centre. Peter H

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December 10, 2005

You could look at http://www.druidnetwork.org/articles/index.html or http://www.warband.org/

These are my two favourite groups - if you like your beer you might like Arthur's rituals. He usually ends them with something like 'Sky above, Earth below - pubs are open, off we go', which is a bit of a play on words of a normal Druid saying.

The Druid Network is run by Emma Restall Orr - she is a long-standing vegan, and believes in ethical living, so you could possibly be interested in that as well.

Jo

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 10:32 PM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

Thats good to hear. The way I`ve seen them historically portrayed is basically a male order who practised human sacrifice. Know any good web info I can look at? being welsh I should take an interest.

The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

Oh yes - Emma Restall Orr formed the Druid Network. Druids can be Pagan or Christian (or anything else really) but nowadays most are Pagan. She wanted to form a body to celebrate in a definitely Pagan way. I would guess its about 50/50 for male and female. I guess I'm a Druid as I belong to the Network and celebrate the 8 festivals with a Bardic Group.

Jo

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 10, 2005 10:13 PM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

I agree with you, but it goes back to my ( badly made ) point that they should be catring for the majority, and the minority given the option to opt out. Not just blanket banning what is more of a tradition rather than a meaningful religious event.

I hope that my kids are taught all about different religions/belief systems not just the major ones, it is something I would encourage.

( Do they have female Druids yet?)

The Valley Vegan..............

Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Peter

> Boy you write some long replies! my main bugbear is this PC society, no-one bats an eye lid when Diwali, Hannukah, or

> even Druid ceremonies around stonehenge come about, but try and have Christmas in our schools and they are not allowed.

> Instead of the traditional nativity play ( which used to be very cute with the infants school kids ) they have to try and avoid

> any religious imagery even in areas like mine where there are few, if no Jews/Muslims/etc, and quite frankly not that many

> Christians ( although still the major faith by a mile), we still have to avoid upseting minorities , even if there are none in the

> schools! ( in my area less than 5% of all schools are of non white origin).

I do have issues with Christianity being so central to school life. It is still the case that every state school in the UK *has* to have a Christian prayer in assembly - it is up to parents to opt their children out. I think it is terribly wrong to treat one religion as though it is *true*, and others as "alternative options". I think that a nativity play is fine, but it should be treated as a "this is a nice story", not as a "this is the absolute truth". Christianity *is* still overwhelmingly taught as truth in the basic running of schools in the UK, and it shouldn't be - there should be more balance of *all* religions. Why do they never do a play of the Oak king and Holly king? It's far more entertaining and has a greater authenticity in English culture.

BB

Peter

Peter H

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Peter H

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December 10, 2005

> I think Arthur Pendragon would floor you for saying that nobody bats an eyelid at the Druids at Stonehenge. He fought for about

> 20 years for Druids to be allowed back in Stonehenge, once they fenced it off. As fara s I am aware there are no Pagan or Druid> rituals in school, so I'm not that worried about whether Christian ones are allowed. Personally, I don't mind who celebrates their

> own faith, but equality would be nice.

The latest is that the villagers of Avebury are complaining about people making a noise during the summer solstice.... I mean, what did they expect when they moved into a village with the 2nd most famous stone circle in the world? It seems a bit like setting up home in St Paul's Cathedral and then complaining when they hold Midnight Mass!

BB

Peter

December 10, 2005

Hi Peter

> And as for the Druids, let face it to most of the public they are nothing more than a curiosity.

> I shall ask my daughter what they teach in RE these days, I know they are teaching about Hindus at the moment, but I

> doubt that they will learn anything about the minor beliefs.

Not sure that you can really call it a "minor" belief.... in the 2001 census Paganism was the 5th largest religion in the country... it has more adherents than Bahai and Sikhism put together, but those aren't considered "minor".

BB

Peter

December 10, 2005

Hi Peter

> I agree with you, but it goes back to my ( badly made ) point that they should be catring for the majority, and the minority

> given the option to opt out. Not just blanket banning what is more of a tradition rather than a meaningful religious event.

I don't think they should "cater" for any religion. Not at the expense of others. The teaching of Christianity in schools in England is akin to teaching that white people are superior to black, which I'm sure you would agree is unacceptable.

> ( Do they have female Druids yet?)

Actually, there are more female Druids than male right now (at least in the Pagan-Druid groups). The second largest is run by Emma Restall-Orr, who has been a high-profile Druid for around 20 years.

BB

Peter

December 10, 2005

Hi Peter

> Thats good to hear. The way I`ve seen them historically portrayed is basically a male order who practised human sacrifice.

> Know any good web info I can look at? being welsh I should take an interest.

Honest answer.... no decent websites that I've ever found (not on an historical level, anyway). If you want to read some books, then Kendrick's "The Druids" is about the only decent one out there... but if you wait for about 18 months, then Ronald Hutton is currently working on one.

If there's anything you want to know about views on Druidry from 1490 to 1650, then you can ask me.... I am 99% confident in saying that I have researched that particular period in more depth than anyone else living :-)

BB

Peter

December 10, 2005

It's really annoying when people complain. I feel a little niggly when the bells at St Peter and St Paul wake me up on a Sunday morning - but they were ringing their bells on Sundays for a long long time before we moved here.

BBJo

-

Peter

Saturday, December 10, 2005 10:52 PM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

> I think Arthur Pendragon would floor you for saying that nobody bats an eyelid at the Druids at Stonehenge. He fought for about

> 20 years for Druids to be allowed back in Stonehenge, once they fenced it off. As fara s I am aware there are no Pagan or Druid> rituals in school, so I'm not that worried about whether Christian ones are allowed. Personally, I don't mind who celebrates their

> own faith, but equality would be nice.

The latest is that the villagers of Avebury are complaining about people making a noise during the summer solstice.... I mean, what did they expect when they moved into a village with the 2nd most famous stone circle in the world? It seems a bit like setting up home in St Paul's Cathedral and then complaining when they hold Midnight Mass!

BB

Peter

December 11, 2005

Here (US) the Christian right is insisting on Intelligent Design being taught along side of Darwin in Science classes. They have made some head way with certain school districts, Kansas is an example. In SCIENCE classes. They don't like Darwinian theory being taught. I really do believe that these people don't know what the term "theory" means. I became involved in the protesting of this inclusion in a science class of Intelligent Design by becoming a part of the "Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster." http://www.venganza.org/ It really was a hoot. Spoofing. I wrote letters to school board members. One board member wrote back saying it wasn't nice to make fun of god. She missed the point obviously. Many school board members wrote back saying how embarrassed they were by the school board members who were supporting this Intelligent Design. But then Kansas is a sneaker. <snip> Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.

If you go to the site and scroll down to the bottom you will see a drawing of this great and wonderful god whose design of this world should be taught in schools too if the picture I put in doesn't come through.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

I do have issues with Christianity being so central to school life. It is still the case that every state school in the UK *has* to have a Christian prayer in assembly - it is up to parents to opt their children out. I think it is terribly wrong to treat one religion as though it is *true*, and others as "alternative options". I think that a nativity play is fine, but it should be treated as a "this is a nice story", not as a "this is the absolute truth". Christianity *is* still overwhelmingly taught as truth in the basic running of schools in the UK, and it shouldn't be - there should be more balance of *all* religions. Why do they never do a play of the Oak king and Holly king? It's far more entertaining and has a greater authenticity in English culture.

December 11, 2005

Whilst it might have been a hoot to you, to a devout believer of any faith, it could be seen as insulting. I`m not saying that we should take the mickey out of religion, just give people the room to practise wha they want, and not have it imposed on other people. The Valley Vegan............linda <lindai81 wrote: Here (US) the Christian right is insisting on Intelligent Design being taught along side of Darwin in Science classes. They have made some head way with certain school districts, Kansas is an example. In SCIENCE classes. They don't like Darwinian theory being taught. I really do believe that these people don't know what the term "theory" means. I became involved in

the protesting of this inclusion in a science class of Intelligent Design by becoming a part of the "Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster." http://www.venganza.org/ It really was a hoot. Spoofing. I wrote letters to school board members. One board member wrote back saying it wasn't nice to make fun of god. She missed the point obviously. Many school board members wrote back saying how embarrassed they were by the school board members who were supporting this Intelligent Design. But then Kansas is a sneaker. <snip> Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a

coincidence, put in place by Him. If you go to the site and scroll down to the bottom you will see a drawing of this great and wonderful god whose design of this world should be taught in schools too if the picture I put in doesn't come through. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 I do have issues with Christianity being so central to school life. It is still the case that every state school in the UK *has* to have a Christian prayer in assembly - it is up to parents to opt their children out. I think it is terribly wrong to treat one religion as though it is *true*, and others as "alternative options". I think that a nativity play is fine, but it should be treated as a "this is a nice story", not as a "this is the absolute truth". Christianity *is* still overwhelmingly taught as truth in the basic running of schools in the UK, and it shouldn't be - there should be more balance of *all* religions. Why do they never do a play of the Oak king and Holly king? It's far more entertaining and has a greater authenticity in English culture. Peter H

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December 11, 2005

Are there non pagan druids? The Valley Vegan.........Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter > I agree with you, but it goes back to my ( badly made ) point that they should be catring for the majority, and the minority > given the option to opt out. Not just blanket banning what is more of a tradition rather than a meaningful religious event. I don't think they should "cater" for any religion. Not at the expense of others. The teaching of Christianity in schools in England is akin to teaching that white people are superior to black, which I'm sure you would agree

is unacceptable. > ( Do they have female Druids yet?) Actually, there are more female Druids than male right now (at least in the Pagan-Druid groups). The second largest is run by Emma Restall-Orr, who has been a high-profile Druid for around 20 years. BB Peter Peter H

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December 11, 2005

I think that some people confuse what Paganism is , and the census was not accurate because of that. I would think that there would be more Sikhs than Pagans? I dunno. The Valley Vegan..............Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Peter > And as for the Druids, let face it to most of the public they are nothing more than a curiosity. > I shall ask my daughter what they teach in RE these days, I know they are teaching about Hindus at the moment, but I > doubt that they will learn anything about the minor beliefs. Not sure that you can really call it a "minor" belief.... in the

2001 census Paganism was the 5th largest religion in the country... it has more adherents than Bahai and Sikhism put together, but those aren't considered "minor". BB Peter Peter H

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December 11, 2005

I think both situations would be nice - the bells and the Solstace celebrations. But then I havent got to live with them. The Valley Vegan.............Peter <metalscarab wrote: > I think Arthur Pendragon would floor you for saying that nobody bats an eyelid at the Druids at Stonehenge. He fought for about > 20 years for Druids to be allowed back in Stonehenge, once they fenced it off. As fara s I am aware there are no Pagan or Druid> rituals in school, so I'm not that worried about whether Christian ones are allowed. Personally, I don't mind who celebrates their > own faith,

but equality would be nice. The latest is that the villagers of Avebury are complaining about people making a noise during the summer solstice.... I mean, what did they expect when they moved into a village with the 2nd most famous stone circle in the world? It seems a bit like setting up home in St Paul's Cathedral and then complaining when they hold Midnight Mass! BB Peter Peter H

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December 11, 2005

The Archbishop of somewhere or other, Rowan (sorry- bad memory for names) became a Druid a couple of years ago. There used to be lots. Best if Peter answers this one.

Jo

-

peter hurd

Sunday, December 11, 2005 9:16 AM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

Are there non pagan druids?

The Valley Vegan.........Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Peter

> I agree with you, but it goes back to my ( badly made ) point that they should be catring for the majority, and the minority

> given the option to opt out. Not just blanket banning what is more of a tradition rather than a meaningful religious event.

I don't think they should "cater" for any religion. Not at the expense of others. The teaching of Christianity in schools in England is akin to teaching that white people are superior to black, which I'm sure you would agree is unacceptable.

> ( Do they have female Druids yet?)

Actually, there are more female Druids than male right now (at least in the Pagan-Druid groups). The second largest is run by Emma Restall-Orr, who has been a high-profile Druid for around 20 years.

BB

Peter

Peter H

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December 11, 2005

I believe Paganism is the fastest growing 'religion' in Britain today.

Jo

-

peter hurd

Sunday, December 11, 2005 9:20 AM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

I think that some people confuse what Paganism is , and the census was not accurate because of that. I would think that there would be more Sikhs than Pagans? I dunno.

The Valley Vegan..............Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Peter

> And as for the Druids, let face it to most of the public they are nothing more than a curiosity.

> I shall ask my daughter what they teach in RE these days, I know they are teaching about Hindus at the moment, but I

> doubt that they will learn anything about the minor beliefs.

Not sure that you can really call it a "minor" belief.... in the 2001 census Paganism was the 5th largest religion in the country... it has more adherents than Bahai and Sikhism put together, but those aren't considered "minor".

BB

Peter

Peter H

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December 11, 2005

I don't mind bells - quite enjoy them sometimes.

I may be a little extreme, but I think it is terrible that houses and a church were built inside a circle. For me it would be better if the houses were bought up and removed from the circle - same for the church. It won't happen though.

For people who sense energies, there is a really weird one near the church at Avebury.

Jo

-

peter hurd

Sunday, December 11, 2005 9:21 AM

Re: Lines drawn in battle over Christmas

I think both situations would be nice - the bells and the Solstace celebrations. But then I havent got to live with them.

The Valley Vegan.............Peter <metalscarab wrote:

> I think Arthur Pendragon would floor you for saying that nobody bats an eyelid at the Druids at Stonehenge. He fought for about

> 20 years for Druids to be allowed back in Stonehenge, once they fenced it off. As fara s I am aware there are no Pagan or Druid> rituals in school, so I'm not that worried about whether Christian ones are allowed. Personally, I don't mind who celebrates their

> own faith, but equality would be nice.

The latest is that the villagers of Avebury are complaining about people making a noise during the summer solstice.... I mean, what did they expect when they moved into a village with the 2nd most famous stone circle in the world? It seems a bit like setting up home in St Paul's Cathedral and then complaining when they hold Midnight Mass!

BB

Peter

Peter H

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