Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 2005 It may be different in America, but often in this country poorer, not so well educated children go into the forces to get 'trained'. I reckon most of them don't think they will be called on to fight. When I was younger the boys from the local children's home, who were chucked out when they reached sixteen, often had no choice but to join the forces. Jo - Jonnie Hellens Tuesday, December 06, 2005 6:49 PM Re: Vegans and war Back in the early 90's the woman who was my childcare provider had several sons. The oldest joined the reserves to get the college education. They were all outraged then when he actually had to go serve.Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Fraggle > if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service.... I agreed with the first bit... but... why the poor family member??? Whadidtheydo, except be born into the wrong family? And I seem to remember a Metallica video which has a quote along the lines of "every American would give their firstborn son", or something along those lines... so, I doubt the parents would be too upset if they voted for war in the first place! > from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em > see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over... What... you want to entertain them... ! BB Peter PersonalsSkip the bars and set-ups and start using Personals for free Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 2005 When my daughter was eighteen she was engaged to a boy, also eighteen. His father was a b*****d. When the voting forms came the father would return then without Simon ever seeing them - so he never got to vote. If Simon's father had agreed with war it would mean his son going to fight, even though he didn't want to - how can that be a good idea. Are you so certain that your father would not vote for you to go to war? Jo - fraggle Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:34 PM Re: Vegans and war maybe they wouldn't be so damn bloody keen to go if their own flesh and blood had to go to the front lines... hey..i'm almost fer bringing back the draft....maybe then people would then go "hey..wait..i could be sent to die?!" i said maybe notice... there's a huge disconnect between those who want war(the congress, the admin, heck, the media) and those who actually get to have their jolly selves actually go and get shot..... there was a whopping 1 senator who had a kid in the service in 2002... jo Dec 6, 2005 10:35 AM Re: Vegans and war Not a good idea. Why should somebody be sent to war because someone else in their family voted to go to war - would you like it if your dad voted for it and you had to go!!! Jo - fraggle Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:20 PM Re: Vegans and war i can take it one better those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military... if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service.... from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over... happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - peter hurd Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM Re: Vegans and war They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter. The Valley Vegan.................. To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 2005 was his father an MP? jo Dec 6, 2005 11:58 AM Re: Vegans and war When my daughter was eighteen she was engaged to a boy, also eighteen. His father was a b*****d. When the voting forms came the father would return then without Simon ever seeing them - so he never got to vote. If Simon's father had agreed with war it would mean his son going to fight, even though he didn't want to - how can that be a good idea. Are you so certain that your father would not vote for you to go to war? Jo - fraggle Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:34 PM Re: Vegans and war maybe they wouldn't be so damn bloody keen to go if their own flesh and blood had to go to the front lines... hey..i'm almost fer bringing back the draft....maybe then people would then go "hey..wait..i could be sent to die?!" i said maybe notice... there's a huge disconnect between those who want war(the congress, the admin, heck, the media) and those who actually get to have their jolly selves actually go and get shot..... there was a whopping 1 senator who had a kid in the service in 2002... jo Dec 6, 2005 10:35 AM Re: Vegans and war Not a good idea. Why should somebody be sent to war because someone else in their family voted to go to war - would you like it if your dad voted for it and you had to go!!! Jo - fraggle Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:20 PM Re: Vegans and war i can take it one better those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military... if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service.... from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over... happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - peter hurd Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM Re: Vegans and war They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter. The Valley Vegan.................. To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 2005 its the same here many folks joined the military because it was a "way out" and, its the way they have portrayed the military for years...you go in, get training, get money fer college, and all that.... jo Dec 6, 2005 11:51 AM Re: Vegans and war It may be different in America, but often in this country poorer, not so well educated children go into the forces to get 'trained'. I reckon most of them don't think they will be called on to fight. When I was younger the boys from the local children's home, who were chucked out when they reached sixteen, often had no choice but to join the forces. Jo - Jonnie Hellens Tuesday, December 06, 2005 6:49 PM Re: Vegans and war Back in the early 90's the woman who was my childcare provider had several sons. The oldest joined the reserves to get the college education. They were all outraged then when he actually had to go serve.Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Fraggle > if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service.... I agreed with the first bit... but... why the poor family member??? Whadidtheydo, except be born into the wrong family? And I seem to remember a Metallica video which has a quote along the lines of "every American would give their firstborn son", or something along those lines... so, I doubt the parents would be too upset if they voted for war in the first place! > from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em > see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over... What... you want to entertain them... ! BB Peter PersonalsSkip the bars and set-ups and start using Personals for free To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 2005 Hi Fraggle > there was a whopping 1 senator who had a kid in the service in 2002... And IIRC he voted *for* the war... so obviously not much of a deterrent! BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 2005 Hi Fraggle > was his father an MP? Why, do you think MP's are kinder than the rest of the population, or something???? BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 2005 sending anyone off to war ain't right.... jo Dec 6, 2005 2:22 PM Re: Vegans and war No - did you say only mps? It still wouldn't be right though. Jo - fraggle Tuesday, December 06, 2005 9:06 PM Re: Vegans and war was his father an MP? jo Dec 6, 2005 11:58 AM Re: Vegans and war When my daughter was eighteen she was engaged to a boy, also eighteen. His father was a b*****d. When the voting forms came the father would return then without Simon ever seeing them - so he never got to vote. If Simon's father had agreed with war it would mean his son going to fight, even though he didn't want to - how can that be a good idea. Are you so certain that your father would not vote for you to go to war? Jo - fraggle Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:34 PM Re: Vegans and war maybe they wouldn't be so damn bloody keen to go if their own flesh and blood had to go to the front lines... hey..i'm almost fer bringing back the draft....maybe then people would then go "hey..wait..i could be sent to die?!" i said maybe notice... there's a huge disconnect between those who want war(the congress, the admin, heck, the media) and those who actually get to have their jolly selves actually go and get shot..... there was a whopping 1 senator who had a kid in the service in 2002... jo Dec 6, 2005 10:35 AM Re: Vegans and war Not a good idea. Why should somebody be sent to war because someone else in their family voted to go to war - would you like it if your dad voted for it and you had to go!!! Jo - fraggle Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:20 PM Re: Vegans and war i can take it one better those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military... if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service.... from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over... happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - peter hurd Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM Re: Vegans and war They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter. The Valley Vegan.................. To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 2005 I think the idea behind this is that maybe the person voting for the war will think it over when it is so personal. The family might exert pressure too so that everyone thinks war is not just a party to attend. If Bush knew that his daughters would have had to go if he voted for the war, we wouldn't be off killing others children, the old, the innocent with our words of stupidity...collateral damage. How inane and criminal to disguise death of the innocent. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - jo Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:35 AM Re: Vegans and war Not a good idea. Why should somebody be sent to war because someone else in their family voted to go to war - would you like it if your dad voted for it and you had to go!!! Jo - fraggle Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:20 PM Re: Vegans and war i can take it one better those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military... if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service.... from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over... happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - peter hurd Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM Re: Vegans and war They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter. The Valley Vegan.................. To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 2005 yay...someone who understands wot i was babbling about its soooo lonely being fraggle..... linda Dec 6, 2005 3:02 PM Re: Vegans and war I think the idea behind this is that maybe the person voting for the war will think it over when it is so personal. The family might exert pressure too so that everyone thinks war is not just a party to attend. If Bush knew that his daughters would have had to go if he voted for the war, we wouldn't be off killing others children, the old, the innocent with our words of stupidity...collateral damage. How inane and criminal to disguise death of the innocent. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - jo Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:35 AM Re: Vegans and war Not a good idea. Why should somebody be sent to war because someone else in their family voted to go to war - would you like it if your dad voted for it and you had to go!!! Jo - fraggle Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:20 PM Re: Vegans and war i can take it one better those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military... if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service.... from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over... happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - peter hurd Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM Re: Vegans and war They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter. The Valley Vegan.................. To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 2005 Hi Linda > I think the idea behind this is that maybe the person voting for the war will think it over when it is so > personal. I think you're making the mistake in thinking that politicians have any emotions.... BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 6, 2005 No, not much different here. During the Vietnam war it was particularly bad because the richer kids could get deferments for being in college and as we all know Bush managed to avoid the war zone via his Dad's money and influence. Now it is a matter of the fact that the only way many of the poorer younger kids can get out of their prediction is to join the military. That way they hope to get job training, money for college, a roof over their head, and food in their tummies and avoid the gangs. They see it as their only way out. So, our military really is filled with kids who come from very poor families...I am talking about enlisted not the officers. There is a movie, star Danny Devito (sp?) who does a movie called The Renaissance Man that explores this topic of why young people go into the military. If you haven't seen it it really gives an insight into the reasons. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - jo It may be different in America, but often in this country poorer, not so well educated children go into the forces to get 'trained'. I reckon most of them don't think they will be called on to fight. When I was younger the boys from the local children's home, who were chucked out when they reached sixteen, often had no choice but to join the forces. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 Well, as you could guess I am not for war at all. People get all bent over that and try to trap me into the whole circular idea about defending oneself blah, blah, blah. But just the term "war" tells the whole story. And saying "sending" also is self defining. If we have to "send" someone to "war" the story told is told. And it doesn't involve individual freedom and rights. We say we have to deter people, go to war to do it, never thinking that maybe we could work for peace period...peace is not something to be attained, but something to be lived day by day and you sure can't do that by killing. The ends do not justify the means. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - fraggle sending anyone off to war ain't right.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 But they would if they had to go first, or if their children had to go. That is why I said it had to be personal. And if there is one thing we can agree on is that politicians have a high level of concern for their own well being. And saying we won't vote them back in just doesn't trigger that need...they figure they can con people and buy their way back in so it has to be more personal. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - Peter Tuesday, December 06, 2005 3:26 PM Re: Vegans and war Hi Linda > I think the idea behind this is that maybe the person voting for the war will think it over when it is so > personal. I think you're making the mistake in thinking that politicians have any emotions.... BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 Hi Fraggle > hey..they aren't daleks! Are you *sure* about that? :-) BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 yeah..i've seen em walk up stairs... Peter Dec 7, 2005 1:12 PM Re: Vegans and war Hi Fraggle > hey..they aren't daleks! Are you *sure* about that? :-) BB PeterTo send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 Hi Fraggle > yeah..i've seen em walk up stairs... *putting on anorak*.... Daleks can do that - they did it in 1988, in "Remembrance of The Daleks", and again this year in "Dalek"... BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 Have you not seen the Daleks go up the stairs, or levitate? Jo - fraggle Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:05 PM Re: Vegans and war yeah..i've seen em walk up stairs... Peter Dec 7, 2005 1:12 PM Re: Vegans and war Hi Fraggle > hey..they aren't daleks! Are you *sure* about that? :-) BB PeterTo send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 nope..never seen a dalek ever go up a flight of stairs.... jo Dec 7, 2005 2:54 PM Re: Vegans and war Have you not seen the Daleks go up the stairs, or levitate? Jo - fraggle Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:05 PM Re: Vegans and war yeah..i've seen em walk up stairs... Peter Dec 7, 2005 1:12 PM Re: Vegans and war Hi Fraggle > hey..they aren't daleks! Are you *sure* about that? :-) BB PeterTo send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 but they couldn't and never did for the twenty odd years before that..and since i stopped watching dr who in the early 80's, everything made after tom baker left is fake..and those aren't daleks but facsimiles... i think nikki is responsible fer their creation.... Peter Dec 7, 2005 2:48 PM Re: Vegans and war Hi Fraggle > yeah..i've seen em walk up stairs... *putting on anorak*.... Daleks can do that - they did it in 1988, in "Remembrance of The Daleks", and again this year in "Dalek"... BB Peter To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 Hi Fraggle > but they couldn't and never did for the twenty odd years before that..and since i stopped watching dr who in the early 80's, *Donning a whole wardrobe of anoraks* Sorry, but I have to correct you again... back in 1964, in The Chase, they landed on the Marie Celeste, and although their ship only landed in one place, they were on all the decks in a matter of seconds. We may not have seen it happen, but they did get around :-) BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 They do - very elegantly. Jo - fraggle Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:15 PM Re: Vegans and war nope..never seen a dalek ever go up a flight of stairs.... jo Dec 7, 2005 2:54 PM Re: Vegans and war Have you not seen the Daleks go up the stairs, or levitate? Jo - fraggle Wednesday, December 07, 2005 7:05 PM Re: Vegans and war yeah..i've seen em walk up stairs... Peter Dec 7, 2005 1:12 PM Re: Vegans and war Hi Fraggle > hey..they aren't daleks! Are you *sure* about that? :-) BB PeterTo send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 blasphemy! Jo - fraggle Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:23 PM Re: Vegans and war but they couldn't and never did for the twenty odd years before that..and since i stopped watching dr who in the early 80's, everything made after tom baker left is fake..and those aren't daleks but facsimiles... i think nikki is responsible fer their creation.... Peter Dec 7, 2005 2:48 PM Re: Vegans and war Hi Fraggle > yeah..i've seen em walk up stairs... *putting on anorak*.... Daleks can do that - they did it in 1988, in "Remembrance of The Daleks", and again this year in "Dalek"... BB Peter To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 7, 2005 Oooooooooh! Loud applause, jumping up and down. I never would have thought of that one :-) BBJo - Peter Wednesday, December 07, 2005 9:07 PM Re: Vegans and war Hi Fraggle > but they couldn't and never did for the twenty odd years before that..and since i stopped watching dr who in the early 80's, *Donning a whole wardrobe of anoraks* Sorry, but I have to correct you again... back in 1964, in The Chase, they landed on the Marie Celeste, and although their ship only landed in one place, they were on all the decks in a matter of seconds. We may not have seen it happen, but they did get around :-) BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 8, 2005 More like cyber men to me? The Valley Vegan.............Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Fraggle > hey..they aren't daleks! Are you *sure* about that? :-) BB Peter Peter H Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 8, 2005 NOOOOOO! Not me! I am too scared of Daleks to make fake ones! Perhaps Peter put them on the twin line as a sort of fail safe against me. Eeeek! And Tom Baker was my fav! Nikki but they couldn't and never did for the twenty odd years before that..and since i stopped watching dr who in the early 80's, everything made after tom baker left is fake..and those aren't daleks but facsimiles... i think nikki is responsible fer their creation.... Peter Dec 7, 2005 2:48 PM Re: Vegans and war Hi Fraggle > yeah..i've seen em walk up stairs... *putting on anorak*.... Daleks can do that - they did it in 1988, in " Remembrance of The Daleks " , and again this year in " Dalek " ... BB Peter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
