Guest guest Report post Posted May 24, 2003 If he/she/it made the world vegan, and dark chocolate and tofutti cuties were suddenly health foods, then yes, I would believe they were God. Tom - " Heartwork " <Heartwork Monday, May 19, 2003 12:07 PM Re: Religion > Tom > > > Don't you think that if someone > > comes up with a rather dubious proposition, that has no way of being > > verified either by sight, touch, smell, or hearing, or by reliable > > eye-witness, that the onus is on them to prove their proposition, as > > scientists often try to do? > > Are you suggesting that Peter and I are not reliable? > > It is obvious that you have never experienced anything that lots of other > people have. I don't think that what I experience is dubious. I am baffled > and rather sad that you have never experienced anything other than the > obvious. Just because your experience is lacking does not put the onus of > me or anyone else to try to prove anything. I do not ask scientists to > prove anything. I read their theories and then decide what I think about > them, which is more important than believing what I am told to. > > >I mean, if I swore I saw pink elephants flying > > in the sky, wouldn't you expect some sort of proof of it, rather than take > > my word for it? > > If you said that I would probably think 'I have never seen a pink elephant > flying, I wonder exactly what it was that he saw'. I wouldn't ask for proof > because that would be silly, and exactly what could you put before me to > prove that you had seen something I had not? I might conclude that you had > either seen pink elephants flying and I missed them, or that you saw > something else that you mistook for pink elephants flying, or that your mind > was making you think you had seen pink elephants flying. I might consider > that you were lying to gain attention, if it seemed likely. Simply, I would > most likely take your word for it that you thought you had seen pink > elephants. It matters not to me whether you actually saw them or not. > > >Despite being a skeptic, I do have an open mind, and if > > someone introduced me to Mr Jesus or God or whatever, I could be > persuaded, > > but until that happens, the onus is not on me to prove something that's > > supernatural. > > The onus is just as much on you to disprove the supernatural as it is for > anyone else to prove it, if you insist on discussing it. When I say I have > an open mind I mean that any theory may or may not be right. That way my > mind is open. Incidentally, if there is a god and you were introduced to > him, why would you believe that it was a god? > > Jo > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 24, 2003 The IRA (I'm not a supporter, by the way) is primarily against British occupation of Ireland, something which, over the centuries has been distrastrous for the Irish (I'm assuming we all know about the Potato Famine, bans on practising their religion, speaking Gaelic etc.). It is more an extreme political organisation than a "religious" one, and does not represent most Catholics, either in Ireland or out of it. Sure, the Ku Klux Klan are white-supremicsist Christians, but they burn down christian churches (black ones, of course) as well as other dirty deeds, so they're are more a declared racist organisation than religious in intent. Plus the fact that they're denounced and reviled by most other Christians. I thought Mossad was the Israeli version of the CIA or secret service - doesn't quite count for an upfront religious organisation, or one that operates on behalf of the Jewish faith, does it? Tom - Peter Monday, May 19, 2003 9:53 AM Re: religion Hi Tom > I'm not overly concerned with the intricate differences between Sunni Muslims or Shiites, but can you show me one organised > terrorist Christian/Jewish/Hindu etc. group that dedicates itself to killing and maiming people not of it's faith (infidels), or issues > "fatwahs" (read death warrants) on them for perceived insults, such as in Salman Rushdie's case? Oh dear, oh dear. Try the IRA, Ku Klux Klan, Opus Dei, P2, Mossad. There's plenty in every major religion (although I admit that you may have me stumped on Hindu). As for Salman Rushdie and fatwahs.... a "fatwah" is the Islamic term for "a religious order" - exactly the same as a Papal Bull in Christianity (and there have been a good few of them that have demanded the deaths of individuals and groups). Salman Rushdie was not condemned to death for "perceived insults", but for renouncing and denouncing Islam, and for portraying the Satanic Verses as a valid part of Islamic religion - thereby horrifically denigrating Islamic religion (the Satanic Verses are not recognised as a part of the Koran, and there is considerable debate on whether they were a part of the original teachings of Mohammed). Is it right that he should be condemned for this? Not in my opinion, but blasphemy against Christianity is still a crime in the UK. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 7, 2003 Nicely said Fraggle! :-) Janey x , EBbrewpunx@c... wrote: > hey > everyone please be aware that there are many different faiths, religions, > belief systems etc represented...here and in that crazy world at large > just be aware of each other and remember not everyone is gonna think like > ya'll do..and respect that > worship how ya like, pray to God, dance nekkid under a moonlit sky, chase > after bees, heck, wotever, just remember to try and keep it civil, fer all > involved... > fank yoo kindly > > cheers > fraggle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 18, 2004 Well said. Jo i think everyone would be happy to hear about your christian faith if you weren't presenting it in such a harsh, even condescending, way. i honestly am pleased for you to know that you're comfortable in your spirituality (most people could only hope for so much!) but i'd be more pleased if i were to hear about it from you without also hearing that all other religions lead astray from the one and only true god that you worship. as you have happiness and comfort in your faith, realize also that others have found the same warmth from theirs and be zealous about what you have without appearing threatening or disdainful. ~~brii >ioannis Tsoucas <itsoucas > > >Re: Re: Life After fraggle >Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:13:43 +0100 (BST) > >I have a different impression: It seems to be you find offensive if someone is writing about his Christian faith, just because it is Christian, i.e. if it is something not Christian you show more tolerance. > >Heartwork <Heartwork wrote:The fact that you assume your beliefs to be totally correct - moreso than other peoples - I find offensive. > >Jo > >Neither Jo. Just I participate in this discussion. I didn't start the discussion even myself. >Are you so intolerant speaking about "offence". So who is here offending, me or you? > >Heartwork <Heartwork wrote: >Ioannis > >Are you intentionally preaching to us or trying to convert us? You are giving that impression, and do seem to be saying that your religion is the only right one. This attitude could, and probably is, causing some offense. > >Jo > >Bush jr. said that for himself. >I didn't say it for myself. I said it for the creator of the world, of us humans and of everything else. >If someone is using something for herself/himself, this is very often dangerous. >In the same sense it is forbidden to worship anything else but the living God. > >EBbrewpunx wrote: >In a message dated 4/10/04 10:30:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, itsoucas writes: >Are you with the living God or are you against the living God. > >no offense... >but that sorta sounds like george bush jr >yer either with us er against us... > >personally..worship however the heck you like, er don't worship, er pretend, er wotever.. >to each their own... >no one has all the answers.... > > >To send an email to - > > > > > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now > >To send an email to - > > > > >To send an email to - > > > > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now > >To send an email to - > > > >To send an email to - > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 18, 2004 ditto jo, i agree, tolerance rules ok catherine >"Heartwork" <Heartwork > > >Re: Re:Religion >Sun, 18 Apr 2004 09:46:44 +0100 > >Well said. > >Jo > > > i think everyone would be happy to hear about your christian faith if you weren't presenting it in such a harsh, even condescending, way. i honestly am pleased for you to know that you're comfortable in your spirituality (most people could only hope for so much!) but i'd be more pleased if i were to hear about it from you without also hearing that all other religions lead astray from the one and only true god that you worship. as you have happiness and comfort in your faith, realize also that others have found the same warmth from theirs and be zealous about what you have without appearing threatening or disdainful. ~~brii > > > >ioannis Tsoucas <itsoucas > > > > > >Re: Re: Life After fraggle > >Thu, 15 Apr 2004 18:13:43 +0100 (BST) > > > >I have a different impression: It seems to be you find offensive if someone is writing about his Christian faith, just because it is Christian, i.e. if it is something not Christian you show more tolerance. > > > >Heartwork <Heartwork wrote:The fact that you assume your beliefs to be totally correct - moreso than other peoples - I find offensive. > > > >Jo > > > >Neither Jo. Just I participate in this discussion. I didn't start the discussion even myself. > >Are you so intolerant speaking about "offence". So who is here offending, me or you? > > > >Heartwork <Heartwork wrote: > >Ioannis > > > >Are you intentionally preaching to us or trying to convert us? You are giving that impression, and do seem to be saying that your religion is the only right one. This attitude could, and probably is, causing some offense. > > > >Jo > > > >Bush jr. said that for himself. > >I didn't say it for myself. I said it for the creator of the world, of us humans and of everything else. > >If someone is using something for herself/himself, this is very often dangerous. > >In the same sense it is forbidden to worship anything else but the living God. > > > >EBbrewpunx wrote: > >In a message dated 4/10/04 10:30:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, itsoucas writes: > >Are you with the living God or are you against the living God. > > > >no offense... > >but that sorta sounds like george bush jr > >yer either with us er against us... > > > >personally..worship however the heck you like, er don't worship, er pretend, er wotever.. > >to each their own... > >no one has all the answers.... > > > > > >To send an email to - > > > > > > > > > > > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now > > > >To send an email to - > > > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > > > > > > > > > > Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now > > > >To send an email to - > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > > > > > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted December 16, 2006 Thank you for the reminder, Fraggle. For my part, my feelings don't get hurt. I spent enough years of my life being an anti-Christian myself that I have to be able to understand the part. I just hope it's okay for me to express an alternate view. I hope everyone remembers I am not trying to force anyone to believe it. peace, sharonfraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: haven't had a chance to read thru todays mail...butjust want to saythat, on ReligionrememberPLEASEthat your truth isn't necessarily someone (or anyone elses) truthplease please pleasey pleasewe can all talk about stuffbut, remember, things like this get out of paw REAL fastfeelings get hurtpeople get madmud gets slungthen plagues of flying angry rabid toads beingsand, we all don't want thatso, all i askplease be aware of what you say and how others might construe it...all together nowoghhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmUntil lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall alwaysglorify the hunter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted July 2, 2008 It has come to my attention that I have caused complaint with my lack of sensetivity lately in my postings on religion and gods. I would like to take this opportunity to apologise wholeheartedly to anyone who felt offended enough to complain. I am sorry. Peter vv Peter Kebbell <metalscarab Sent: Saturday, 28 June, 2008 10:43:12 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here Hi PeterNot really my field - but I think that most pre-Christian religions tended to asign natural phenomena to deities (so, a storm god, a wind god, god of love, god of war, etc.) As such, most pre-Christian religions have parallel deities, but they're not really "the same" - just that in the monotheistic world we now live in, people think that if two different deities were "storm gods", they must, of course, have been the same deity... much like two different lawyers must really be the same person!BBPeter 2008/6/28 Peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>: I thought the greek gods were the same as the roman gods, but with different names?, which came first? or did they arrive at the same time? did one copy off the other? What are classed as the old gods? Peter vv Peter Kebbell <metalscarab@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com Saturday, 28 June, 2008 10:33:22 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here Oh crumbs.... well, I can try! Although it does get quite complicated with the various theories that are around (and I'm a few years out of date, so it's possible that there are different theories nowadays!)The oldest known religions are those of ancient Sumer and Egypt, although both were already very complex and well developed by the time we know anything about them (around 3,000 BCE), so were probably already ancient at that point. It's pretty likely that religious belief has been around since humanity (or its predecessors) became sentient!I don't know exactly how old the Roman gods are - the Roman republic itself appeared around 750 BCE, and as far as I know, the religion that developed in that has its roots in the "clan" religions that were encompassed in the republic. Same with Greek gods. Judaism in anything approaching its modern form developed around the time of the Babylonian exile (c.500 BCE), but has roots going back to the tribal peoples of modern day Israel / Palestine, along with roots in Sumerian and Egyptian religions. Christianity in its modern form developed over the first 3 or 4 centuries CE...BBPeter 2008/6/28 Peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com>: Well, you certainly did big him up there! I shall wait and see if the expert replies. Peter vv jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> @gro ups.com Friday, 27 June, 2008 11:19:33 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here  Peter's your man for that answer - he has discussed with world experts, and might even be one himself. Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Friday, June 27, 2008 8:33 PM Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here Is it possible to put an age on a faith ( you said old gods ), I wonder what the oldest faith would be? Peter vv jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com Thursday, 26 June, 2008 11:15:44 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here  Yes, people do believe in all the old gods. Jo - Peter VV @gro ups.com Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:17 PM Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here Realy? worship as in believe they exist sort of thing? wow, does anyone believe on Roman gods still? are they two sides of the same coin, dont wish to offend, I realy am ignorant, sorry. Peter vv Blue Rose <bluerose156@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com Thursday, 26 June, 2008 10:12:20 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here I worship Greek gods. On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote: Boy am I ignorant, I dont understand any of this? Peter vv Blue Rose <bluerose156@ gmail.com>@gro ups.com Thursday, 26 June, 2008 9:28:08 PMRe: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here Not all, but working on it! The current one is my favorite. He is quite squee. I'm a Greek polytheist. I'd describe myself more as either syncretic or "intelligently eclectic". I don't really mix 'n' match, just fill holes. On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 4:20 PM, jo <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote: Oooooh! I feel some chat coming on :-) What path are you (I'm eclectic and Druid (but not wholly)) and have you seen all the old Doctors? or did you come in on the newer ones? We have just two episodes left this year :-( but they look as though they should be good. BBJo - Blue Rose @gro ups.com Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:16 PM Re: Re: Question about amt. of "viable" members here Yay!<-- also a Pagan and Doctor Who fan. :D On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 2:54 AM, heartwerk <jo.heartwork@ gmail.com> wrote: I personally like heavy metal, Doctor Who, Paganism and theparanormal, photography, gardening, gentle walks etc.What do you like? -- Email: bluerose156@ gmail.comAIM: A Blue Rose 156 YM: blue_rose_156http://x-bluerose- x.livejournal. com~http://groups. / group/Boston_ Gothichttp://groups. / group/Boston_ Mystichttp://groups. / group/Boston- Pagans -- Email: bluerose156@ gmail.comAIM: A Blue Rose 156 YM: blue_rose_156http://x-bluerose- x.livejournal. com~http://groups. / group/Boston_ Gothichttp://groups. / group/Boston_ Mystichttp://groups. / group/Boston- Pagans Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at -- Email: bluerose156@ gmail.comAIM: A Blue Rose 156 YM: blue_rose_156http://x-bluerose- x.livejournal. com~http://groups. / group/Boston_ Gothichttp://groups. / group/Boston_ Mystichttp://groups. / group/Boston- Pagans Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Not happy with your email address? Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted November 26, 2008 " There is no religion without love, and people may talk as much as they like about their religion, but if it does not teach them to be good and kind to other animals as well as humans, it is all a sham. " -Anna Sewell, writer (1820-1878) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
