Guest guest Report post Posted May 11, 2003 Hi Dave I think often people like to belong to groups as in this list - other vegans to chat to. A few years ago I realised that the way I had felt all my life had an umbrella name - Paganism. I have never suffered from self-belief. It is just good to chat with people who believe the same sort of things, and I presume that is why others mix with people who share their beliefs. I also love to chat to people about heavy-metal because that is a passion of mine. Jo > Ok, as I said in my intro, I won't be tactful. > > Could someone explain to me why so many people have so little self belief, > that they would rather believe in a mythical being to rule their life, > rather than their own ideas? > > Is it so hard to have one's own beliefs, rather than trying to tie them to > some religion or other? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 11, 2003 Jo I can accept that people do like to group with others that have the same basic beliefs. I'm tied into the anarcho-punk thing, due to history. I know some great people through the scene, but I'm not your basic anarcho-punk. I rarely listen to the music, and would not describe myself as an anarcho. The reason I know people from the anarcho scene is that we share the same base beliefs such as veganism and anti-capitalism. It wouldn't matter if it was the anarcho world or Catholic world etc., I would still get on with these people if we shared the same basic beliefs. But I would never try to align myself with something, purely because it seemed to almost fit. I have too much self respect for that. My question was not really why people would be on this group. More why people would still try to find some logic in religion. Many, I'm sure, treat it as a thing that they have been born into, but my parents were meat eaters and I don't feel the need to follow them. Honestly, I feel it is a lack of self belief. At the very least, an unwillingness to question 'truths' as were taught at a young age. Dave ---- 11 May 2003 19:05:38 Re: Religion Hi Dave I think often people like to belong to groups as in this list - other vegans to chat to. A few years ago I realised that the way I had felt all my life had an umbrella name - Paganism. I have never suffered from self-belief. It is just good to chat with people who believe the same sort of things, and I presume that is why others mix with people who share their beliefs. I also love to chat to people about heavy-metal because that is a passion of mine. Jo > Ok, as I said in my intro, I won't be tactful. > > Could someone explain to me why so many people have so little self belief, > that they would rather believe in a mythical being to rule their life, > rather than their own ideas? > > Is it so hard to have one's own beliefs, rather than trying to tie them to > some religion or other? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 11, 2003 Well Dave, I agree with you that not fighting against old beliefs which we consider wrong (the fact that they are old does not make them necessarily right) is a lack of self-belief. I also thought of that a couple of days ago when I saw lots of people wearing leather jackets and coats. Why do they think another skin would make them 'more beautiful' than they are? (well, not to me, but...) Are they really that insecure? What do they have to hide to wear hair or skin of another living creature? I'll never wear fur or leather. Not to mention my personal beliefs about the cruelty of getting them but I feel very good in my own skin and would not want to change that to an animal's who not to mention has suffered all his/her life but would also not give it away without a fight. (and why should s/he!) Which brings to mind a story I read on PETA about a woman who signed her will that after her death her body parts are to be barbequed and her legs to be made into umbrella posts and her skin be made into a bag to show the unnecessary cruelty of producing goods and inflicting pain for money. Any of you read it? Marit Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 11, 2003 Dave > I can accept that people do like to group with others that have the same > basic beliefs. I'm tied into the anarcho-punk thing, due to history. I know > some great people through the scene, but I'm not your basic anarcho-punk. I > rarely listen to the music, and would not describe myself as an anarcho. The > reason I know people from the anarcho scene is that we share the same base > beliefs such as veganism and anti-capitalism. It wouldn't matter if it was > the anarcho world or Catholic world etc., I would still get on with these > people if we shared the same basic beliefs. But I would never try to align > myself with something, purely because it seemed to almost fit. I have too > much self respect for that. I think that people have a group of friends because there is some common interest. I have Pagan friends, metal friends, Tai Chi friends, friends to meditate with etc. etc. For you it is anarcho punk because you have something in common with them, and you probably have other groups of friends with another interest that you share. You have actually aligned yourself with a group even though it is not a complete fit of interests i.e. you are not an anarcho, and share only veganism and anti-capitalism. > My question was not really why people would be on this group. More why > people would still try to find some logic in religion. Many, I'm sure, treat > it as a thing that they have been born into, but my parents were meat eaters > and I don't feel the need to follow them. I agree that some might follow a religion because they are born into it. For myself I can only say that I have always had the same beliefs and interests, and I was almost 50 before I discovered that there was a name for it and others who shared a lot of those beliefs - enough of them to make it pleasant to socialise with them and spend hours talking. > > Honestly, I feel it is a lack of self belief. At the very least, an > unwillingness to question 'truths' as were taught at a young age. This could well be the case with some people, but it is also true that people find their own truths. This does not mean that they have a lack of self-belief. You may just as easily say that someone who lives with another person has a lack of self belief. Jo > > Dave > > ---- > > > 11 May 2003 19:05:38 > > Re: Religion > > Hi Dave > > I think often people like to belong to groups as in this list - other vegans > to chat to. A few years ago I realised that the way I had felt all my life > had an umbrella name - Paganism. I have never suffered from self-belief. > It is just good to chat with people who believe the same sort of things, and > I presume that is why others mix with people who share their beliefs. I > also love to chat to people about heavy-metal because that is a passion of > mine. > > Jo > > > Ok, as I said in my intro, I won't be tactful. > > > > Could someone explain to me why so many people have so little self belief, > > that they would rather believe in a mythical being to rule their life, > > rather than their own ideas? > > > > Is it so hard to have one's own beliefs, rather than trying to tie them to > > some religion or other? > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 11, 2003 Hi Dave > My question was not really why people would be on this group. More why > people would still try to find some logic in religion. I see why you have trouble understanding spiritual beliefs if you expect them to be logical - but what is logic? Just a set of rules for defining how we should think. Oh, hang on, isn't that a form of religion? > Honestly, I feel it is a lack of self belief. At the very least, an > unwillingness to question 'truths' as were taught at a young age. I agree with you - but I don't think that is tied purely to religion. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 In a message dated 5/11/03 8:01:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, veggietart writes: Now that we do know most of the answers, why do we need to feed people religion? well..i wouldn't go that far.... know all the answers? very far from it..the amount we don't know is enormous..we can't even ask some of the questions yet! some folks need religion, some don't....some folks take it deeply to heart and it fill all their being... to each their own.... fraggle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 Dave, It takes a lot of courage to fight what has been inculcated in you since almost infancy. While everyone is born an atheist (maybe an agnostic), the vast majority of families try to instill their children with " values, " which usually translates to worshipping a being whose existence we cannot determine. For millennia, humans did not know the answers to basic questions, so they created gods and religions to explain them. Now that we do know most of the answers, why do we need to feed people religion? Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Dave " <tfalbb Religion Sun, 11 May 2003 18:37:22 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Ok, as I said in my intro, I won't be tactful. Could someone explain to me why so many people have so little self belief, that they would rather believe in a mythical being to rule their life, rather than their own ideas? Is it so hard to have one's own beliefs, rather than trying to tie them to some religion or other? Dave ---- 11 May 2003 15:33:20 Re: That's it. - " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Monday, May 12, 2003 7:16 AM Re: That's it. When I hear talk of Christianity..Catholicism dosn't come to mind. No disrespect to anyone who is seeking the truth and are with the Catholic church. Simon > If the subject of all the Catholic priests charged & convicted of raping and > molesting kids is raised (at least 50 in the last decade here in Oz, and > increasing), my Mum denounces it all as a pack of anti-Catholic lies. None > is so blind as those who will not see... > > Tom > - > " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart > > Saturday, May 10, 2003 8:20 AM > Re: That's it. > > > > For a lovely example of Catholic hypocrisy, get this: one of the many > > colleges here in DC is Catholic University of America. Last year, > Attorney > > General John Ashcroft gave the commencement speech. This year, after > > student protests, DC Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton was disinvited from > > giving a talk at the school's book store because she is pro-choice, which > we > > all know runs counter to Catholic views. Ashcroft's enthusiastic support > > for the death penalty--which I believe the Pope opposes--evidently was not > > as important. Norton wasn't even going to discuss that; she was there > > because a biography of her had been recently published. > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > > > > Re: That's it. > > Fri, 9 May 2003 20:37:39 -0700 > > > > I was raised strict catholic, and they are most conservative, hypocritcal > > bunch of pricks you'll meet. The Pope apparently blessed the (fascist) > > Italian troops before going to war (WW2). > > > > Tom > > - > > simonpjones > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:54 AM > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > > - > > Catherine Harris > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 1:24 PM > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > . The sermon was about Genesis, and centred on the fact that women > > deserve pain, suffering because they are full of sin and ate the apple, > > > > Did they actually mention an apple as there is no mention of apples > in > > bibles I've read? > > > > You must of went to a catholic church or an anglican church as they > in > > my experience don't even denounce war. > > > > Why they don't read the gospels and try to preach what is said in > them, > > is strange to say the least. > > > > Simon > > > > > " Danielle Kichler " > > > > > > > > > > >Re: That's it. > > >Thu, 08 May 2003 07:49:30 -0400 > > > > > >I'm sorry if anything I've said could be construed as bashing > > religion. I > > >have just heard about too many horrible, horrible things done in the > > name of > > >religion over the millenia to not bash religion. I have also > > experienced > > >hostility at several points in my life because of my varying > beliefs. > > And I > > >loathe organized religion's hostility toward women, a reason I have > > >jettisoned the whole business. > > > > > >Veganism is based in compassion; organized religion talks > compassion, > > but I > > >sure don't see a whole lot of it from so-called religious leaders. > And > > >while there are animal rights activists who do some horrible things, > > they > > >cannot compare to the slaughter perpetuated in the name of religion. > > > > > >Danielle > > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette > > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- > > > " Amylia F " > > > > > > > > > That's it. > > >Wed, 07 May 2003 21:08:29 -0700 > > > > > >_______________ > > >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > ><< message5.txt >> > > > > > > -------- > -- > > On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone > > > > To send an email to > - > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 That would be Ingrid Newkirk, president of PETA, who made such a will. I noticed some vitriol in her piece, and I think it's just a little wacky, but hey, it's her body, her decision. It just occurred to me, the link between following an organized religion and meat-eating: we have these beliefs ingrained in us from a very young age. It takes a lot of courage to fight the meat beliefs; it takes an equal amount of courage to fight the God beliefs. As a vegan feminist agnostic, I really am going against the grain on almost all levels. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Marit " <tuliratsu Re: Religion Sun, 11 May 2003 23:28:00 +0300 Well Dave, I agree with you that not fighting against old beliefs which we consider wrong (the fact that they are old does not make them necessarily right) is a lack of self-belief. I also thought of that a couple of days ago when I saw lots of people wearing leather jackets and coats. Why do they think another skin would make them 'more beautiful' than they are? (well, not to me, but...) Are they really that insecure? What do they have to hide to wear hair or skin of another living creature? I'll never wear fur or leather. Not to mention my personal beliefs about the cruelty of getting them but I feel very good in my own skin and would not want to change that to an animal's who not to mention has suffered all his/her life but would also not give it away without a fight. (and why should s/he!) Which brings to mind a story I read on PETA about a woman who signed her will that after her death her body parts are to be barbequed and her legs to be made into umbrella posts and her skin be made into a bag to show the unnecessary cruelty of producing goods and inflicting pain for money. Any of you read it? Marit _______________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 as a vegan feminist pagan my mother says i am trying to make her hair white.............in reaction, my son has had some conservative moments, shall we say........ catherine >"Danielle Kichler" > > >Re: Religion >Sun, 11 May 2003 23:14:34 -0400 > >That would be Ingrid Newkirk, president of PETA, who made such a will. I >noticed some vitriol in her piece, and I think it's just a little wacky, but >hey, it's her body, her decision. > >It just occurred to me, the link between following an organized religion and >meat-eating: we have these beliefs ingrained in us from a very young age. >It takes a lot of courage to fight the meat beliefs; it takes an equal >amount of courage to fight the God beliefs. As a vegan feminist agnostic, >I really am going against the grain on almost all levels. > >Danielle > > > >"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette Rankin > > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- >"Marit" > > >Re: Religion >Sun, 11 May 2003 23:28:00 +0300 > >Well Dave, I agree with you that not fighting against old beliefs which we >consider wrong (the fact that they are old does not make them necessarily >right) is a lack of self-belief. > >I also thought of that a couple of days ago when I saw lots of people >wearing leather jackets and coats. Why do they think another skin would make >them 'more beautiful' than they are? (well, not to me, but...) Are they >really that insecure? What do they have to hide to wear hair or skin of >another living creature? > >I'll never wear fur or leather. Not to mention my personal beliefs about the >cruelty of getting them but I feel very good in my own skin and would not >want to change that to an animal's who not to mention has suffered all >his/her life but would also not give it away without a fight. (and why >should s/he!) > >Which brings to mind a story I read on PETA about a woman who signed her >will that after her death her body parts are to be barbequed and her legs to >be made into umbrella posts and her skin be made into a bag to show the >unnecessary cruelty of producing goods and inflicting pain for money. Any of >you read it? > >Marit > >_______________ >Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 My mom doesn't have a problem with the feminist bit, and she's gotten over the agnostic bit (especially since she goes to synagogue maybe twice a year), but who knows when she'll accept the vegan bit. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Catherine Harris " <cait2 Re: Religion Mon, 12 May 2003 03:17:16 +0000 _______________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail as a vegan feminist pagan my mother says i am trying to make her hair white.............in reaction, my son has had some conservative moments, shall we say........ catherine >"Danielle Kichler" > > >Re: Religion >Sun, 11 May 2003 23:14:34 -0400 > >That would be Ingrid Newkirk, president of PETA, who made such a will. I >noticed some vitriol in her piece, and I think it's just a little wacky, but >hey, it's her body, her decision. > >It just occurred to me, the link between following an organized religion and >meat-eating: we have these beliefs ingrained in us from a very young age. >It takes a lot of courage to fight the meat beliefs; it takes an equal >amount of courage to fight the God beliefs. As a vegan feminist agnostic, >I really am going against the grain on almost all levels. > >Danielle > > > >"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette Rankin > > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- >"Marit" > > >Re: Religion >Sun, 11 May 2003 23:28:00 +0300 > >Well Dave, I agree with you that not fighting against old beliefs which we >consider wrong (the fact that they are old does not make them necessarily >right) is a lack of self-belief. > >I also thought of that a couple of days ago when I saw lots of people >wearing leather jackets and coats. Why do they think another skin would make >them 'more beautiful' than they are? (well, not to me, but...) Are they >really that insecure? What do they have to hide to wear hair or skin of >another living creature? > >I'll never wear fur or leather. Not to mention my personal beliefs about the >cruelty of getting them but I feel very good in my own skin and would not >want to change that to an animal's who not to mention has suffered all >his/her life but would also not give it away without a fight. (and why >should s/he!) > >Which brings to mind a story I read on PETA about a woman who signed her >will that after her death her body parts are to be barbequed and her legs to >be made into umbrella posts and her skin be made into a bag to show the >unnecessary cruelty of producing goods and inflicting pain for money. Any of >you read it? > >Marit > >_______________ >Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone To send an email to - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 I don't know what happens after we die; we can't possibly know what happens. So I prefer to make the most of this life, 'cause it's the only one I know I've got. I think people make up these stories to scare others into behaving in a certain approved " moral " fashion. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Re: Religion Mon, 12 May 2003 20:13:13 -0700 Religion is a crutch and a comfort to many people. I envy them; if I thought big Daddy was going to look after me in heaven when I died that would be great. Problem is, I just can't believe in nursery rhymes. Tom - " Dave " <tfalbb Sunday, May 11, 2003 10:37 AM Religion > Ok, as I said in my intro, I won't be tactful. > > Could someone explain to me why so many people have so little self belief, > that they would rather believe in a mythical being to rule their life, > rather than their own ideas? > > Is it so hard to have one's own beliefs, rather than trying to tie them to > some religion or other? > > Dave > > ---- > > > 11 May 2003 15:33:20 > > Re: That's it. > > > - > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > Monday, May 12, 2003 7:16 AM > Re: That's it. > > When I hear talk of Christianity..Catholicism dosn't come to mind. > > No disrespect to anyone who is seeking the truth and are with the Catholic > church. > > Simon > > > > If the subject of all the Catholic priests charged & convicted of raping > and > > molesting kids is raised (at least 50 in the last decade here in Oz, and > > increasing), my Mum denounces it all as a pack of anti-Catholic lies. None > > is so blind as those who will not see... > > > > Tom > > - > > " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart > > > > Saturday, May 10, 2003 8:20 AM > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > For a lovely example of Catholic hypocrisy, get this: one of the many > > > colleges here in DC is Catholic University of America. Last year, > > Attorney > > > General John Ashcroft gave the commencement speech. This year, after > > > student protests, DC Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton was disinvited from > > > giving a talk at the school's book store because she is pro-choice, > which > > we > > > all know runs counter to Catholic views. Ashcroft's enthusiastic > support > > > for the death penalty--which I believe the Pope opposes--evidently was > not > > > as important. Norton wasn't even going to discuss that; she was there > > > because a biography of her had been recently published. > > > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette > > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > > > > > > > Re: That's it. > > > Fri, 9 May 2003 20:37:39 -0700 > > > > > > I was raised strict catholic, and they are most conservative, > hypocritcal > > > bunch of pricks you'll meet. The Pope apparently blessed the (fascist) > > > Italian troops before going to war (WW2). > > > > > > Tom > > > - > > > simonpjones > > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:54 AM > > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Catherine Harris > > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 1:24 PM > > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > > > . The sermon was about Genesis, and centred on the fact that women > > > deserve pain, suffering because they are full of sin and ate the apple, > > > > > > Did they actually mention an apple as there is no mention of apples > > in > > > bibles I've read? > > > > > > You must of went to a catholic church or an anglican church as they > > in > > > my experience don't even denounce war. > > > > > > Why they don't read the gospels and try to preach what is said in > > them, > > > is strange to say the least. > > > > > > Simon > > > > > > > " Danielle Kichler " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Re: That's it. > > > >Thu, 08 May 2003 07:49:30 -0400 > > > > > > > >I'm sorry if anything I've said could be construed as bashing > > > religion. I > > > >have just heard about too many horrible, horrible things done in > the > > > name of > > > >religion over the millenia to not bash religion. I have also > > > experienced > > > >hostility at several points in my life because of my varying > > beliefs. > > > And I > > > >loathe organized religion's hostility toward women, a reason I > have > > > >jettisoned the whole business. > > > > > > > >Veganism is based in compassion; organized religion talks > > compassion, > > > but I > > > >sure don't see a whole lot of it from so-called religious leaders. > > And > > > >while there are animal rights activists who do some horrible > things, > > > they > > > >cannot compare to the slaughter perpetuated in the name of > religion. > > > > > > > >Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an > earthquake " --Jeanette > > > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- > > > > " Amylia F " > > > > > > > > > > > > That's it. > > > >Wed, 07 May 2003 21:08:29 -0700 > > > > > > > >_______________ > > > >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > > >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > ><< message5.txt >> > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > -- > > > On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone > > > > > > To send an email to > > - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 I wouldn't call my beliefs religion just faith, and there is a difference. Hey Tom, what if you were told that there is no 'big Daddy' not like religionists want you to believe. That there is no 'heaven' and you could never 'die'. That is one of the biggest illusions of humans! The fact is whether you believe in that kind of thing or you deny it, you still deny the very essence of religion, without knowing how things really work! But there is another way! Not a better way, merely another way! Marit We Are All One! - Vegecentric Tuesday, May 13, 2003 6:13 AM Re: Religion Religion is a crutch and a comfort to many people. I envy them; if I thoughtbig Daddy was going to look after me in heaven when I died that would begreat. Problem is, I just can't believe in nursery rhymes.Tom-"Dave" <tfalbbSunday, May 11, 2003 10:37 AM Religion> Ok, as I said in my intro, I won't be tactful.>> Could someone explain to me why so many people have so little self belief,> that they would rather believe in a mythical being to rule their life,> rather than their own ideas?>> Is it so hard to have one's own beliefs, rather than trying to tie them to> some religion or other?>> Dave>> ---->> > 11 May 2003 15:33:20> > Re: That's it.>>> -> "Vegecentric" <vegecentric> > Monday, May 12, 2003 7:16 AM> Re: That's it.>> When I hear talk of Christianity..Catholicism dosn't come to mind.>> No disrespect to anyone who is seeking the truth and are with the Catholic> church.>> Simon>>> > If the subject of all the Catholic priests charged & convicted of raping> and> > molesting kids is raised (at least 50 in the last decade here in Oz,and> > increasing), my Mum denounces it all as a pack of anti-Catholic lies.None> > is so blind as those who will not see...> >> > Tom> > -> > "Danielle Kichler" <veggietart> > > > Saturday, May 10, 2003 8:20 AM> > Re: That's it.> >> >> > > For a lovely example of Catholic hypocrisy, get this: one of the many> > > colleges here in DC is Catholic University of America. Last year,> > Attorney> > > General John Ashcroft gave the commencement speech. This year, after> > > student protests, DC Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton was disinvitedfrom> > > giving a talk at the school's book store because she is pro-choice,> which> > we> > > all know runs counter to Catholic views. Ashcroft's enthusiastic> support> > > for the death penalty--which I believe the Pope opposes--evidently was> not> > > as important. Norton wasn't even going to discuss that; she was there> > > because a biography of her had been recently published.> > >> > > Danielle> > >> > >> > >> > > "You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette> > Rankin> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ----Original Message Follows----> > > "Vegecentric" <vegecentric> > > > > > > > > Re: That's it.> > > Fri, 9 May 2003 20:37:39 -0700> > >> > > I was raised strict catholic, and they are most conservative,> hypocritcal> > > bunch of pricks you'll meet. The Pope apparently blessed the (fascist)> > > Italian troops before going to war (WW2).> > >> > > Tom> > > -> > > simonpjones> > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:54 AM> > > Re: That's it.> > >> > >> > >> > > -> > > Catherine Harris> > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 1:24 PM> > > Re: That's it.> > >> > >> > > . The sermon was about Genesis, and centred on the fact thatwomen> > > deserve pain, suffering because they are full of sin and ate theapple,> > >> > > Did they actually mention an apple as there is no mention ofapples> > in> > > bibles I've read?> > >> > > You must of went to a catholic church or an anglican church asthey> > in> > > my experience don't even denounce war.> > >> > > Why they don't read the gospels and try to preach what is said in> > them,> > > is strange to say the least.> > >> > > Simon> > >> > > >"Danielle Kichler"> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >Re: That's it.> > > >Thu, 08 May 2003 07:49:30 -0400> > > >> > > >I'm sorry if anything I've said could be construed as bashing> > > religion. I> > > >have just heard about too many horrible, horrible things done in> the> > > name of> > > >religion over the millenia to not bash religion. I have also> > > experienced> > > >hostility at several points in my life because of my varying> > beliefs.> > > And I> > > >loathe organized religion's hostility toward women, a reason I> have> > > >jettisoned the whole business.> > > >> > > >Veganism is based in compassion; organized religion talks> > compassion,> > > but I> > > >sure don't see a whole lot of it from so-called religiousleaders.> > And> > > >while there are animal rights activists who do some horrible> things,> > > they> > > >cannot compare to the slaughter perpetuated in the name of> religion.> > > >> > > >Danielle> > > >> > > >> > > >"You can no more win a war than you can win an> earthquake"--Jeanette> > > Rankin> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >----Original Message Follows----> > > >"Amylia F"> > > > > > > > > > > > That's it.> > > >Wed, 07 May 2003 21:08:29 -0700> > > >> > >>_______________> > > >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online> > > >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963> > > ><< message5.txt >>> > >> > >> >>> --------> > --> > > On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone> > >> > > To send an email to> > - > > >> > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 Hi, > I see why you have trouble understanding spiritual beliefs if you expect > them to be logical - but what is logic? Just a set of rules for defining how > we should think. Oh, hang on, isn't that a form of religion? I'd say logic is a way of looking at the world based on what is seen to exist, whilst a religion is a way of looking at the world based on assumptions of what is not seen to exist, but taken on faith to do so. John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 Hi Danielle > While everyone is born an atheist (maybe an agnostic) I'd disagree with that - I would say that everyone is born as a deeply spiritual being, and it is gradually beaten out of us as we get older. The difference in " religions " is that people find vastly different ways to interpret the same things - particularly when there is something which can not have a frame of reference in a purely physical existence. :-) BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 Hi John > I'd say logic is a way of looking at the world based on what is seen to > exist, whilst a religion is a way of looking at the world based on > assumptions of what is not seen to exist, but taken on faith to do so. But logic is based on the assumption that there is nothing which is not seen to exist - so is every bit as much a religious following as anything else. For instance, most people would argue that it is " logical " to believe that there is no form of life after physical death - but since there is no evidence for that, it is as much an assumption as believing " illogically " that there is some form of life after physical death. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 Marit I may be misunderstanding what you are saying. Over half the world's population believe that our spirit does not die (reincarnation). They are no more wrong than any other religion. None of us have proof of what happens/may happen/does not happen when we 'die'. The only criticism I have of any religion is when it 'controls' people. Jo I wouldn't call my beliefs religion just faith, and there is a difference. Hey Tom, what if you were told that there is no 'big Daddy' not like religionists want you to believe. That there is no 'heaven' and you could never 'die'. That is one of the biggest illusions of humans! The fact is whether you believe in that kind of thing or you deny it, you still deny the very essence of religion, without knowing how things really work! But there is another way! Not a better way, merely another way! ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 Logic is not always based on what is seen to exist. It is very often a theory that is extended from a basis of what is seen to exist. That theory can therefore be very much like a religion - based on a faith that you have assumed correctly. Jo I'd say logic is a way of looking at the world based on what is seen to > exist, whilst a religion is a way of looking at the world based on > assumptions of what is not seen to exist, but taken on faith to do so. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 12, 2003 Hi Danielle I do agree with what you say, except I don't think we know all the answers yet. I think of 'science' as another religion. Lots of the 'answers' that have been put forward in the past have been modified or totally revised. I reckon we have a long way to go before we know the answers. Jo > It takes a lot of courage to fight what has been inculcated in you since > almost infancy. While everyone is born an atheist (maybe an agnostic), the > vast majority of families try to instill their children with " values, " which > usually translates to worshipping a being whose existence we cannot > determine. For millennia, humans did not know the answers to basic > questions, so they created gods and religions to explain them. Now that we > do know most of the answers, why do we need to feed people religion? > > Danielle > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Dave " <tfalbb > > > Religion > Sun, 11 May 2003 18:37:22 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) > > Ok, as I said in my intro, I won't be tactful. > > Could someone explain to me why so many people have so little self belief, > that they would rather believe in a mythical being to rule their life, > rather than their own ideas? > > Is it so hard to have one's own beliefs, rather than trying to tie them to > some religion or other? > > Dave > > ---- > > > 11 May 2003 15:33:20 > > Re: That's it. > > > - > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > Monday, May 12, 2003 7:16 AM > Re: That's it. > > When I hear talk of Christianity..Catholicism dosn't come to mind. > > No disrespect to anyone who is seeking the truth and are with the Catholic > church. > > Simon > > > > If the subject of all the Catholic priests charged & convicted of raping > and > > molesting kids is raised (at least 50 in the last decade here in Oz, and > > increasing), my Mum denounces it all as a pack of anti-Catholic lies. > None > > is so blind as those who will not see... > > > > Tom > > - > > " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart > > > > Saturday, May 10, 2003 8:20 AM > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > For a lovely example of Catholic hypocrisy, get this: one of the many > > > colleges here in DC is Catholic University of America. Last year, > > Attorney > > > General John Ashcroft gave the commencement speech. This year, after > > > student protests, DC Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton was disinvited from > > > giving a talk at the school's book store because she is pro-choice, > which > > we > > > all know runs counter to Catholic views. Ashcroft's enthusiastic > support > > > for the death penalty--which I believe the Pope opposes--evidently was > not > > > as important. Norton wasn't even going to discuss that; she was there > > > because a biography of her had been recently published. > > > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette > > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > > > > > > > Re: That's it. > > > Fri, 9 May 2003 20:37:39 -0700 > > > > > > I was raised strict catholic, and they are most conservative, > hypocritcal > > > bunch of pricks you'll meet. The Pope apparently blessed the (fascist) > > > Italian troops before going to war (WW2). > > > > > > Tom > > > - > > > simonpjones > > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:54 AM > > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Catherine Harris > > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 1:24 PM > > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > > > . The sermon was about Genesis, and centred on the fact that women > > > deserve pain, suffering because they are full of sin and ate the apple, > > > > > > Did they actually mention an apple as there is no mention of > apples > > in > > > bibles I've read? > > > > > > You must of went to a catholic church or an anglican church as > they > > in > > > my experience don't even denounce war. > > > > > > Why they don't read the gospels and try to preach what is said in > > them, > > > is strange to say the least. > > > > > > Simon > > > > > > > " Danielle Kichler " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Re: That's it. > > > >Thu, 08 May 2003 07:49:30 -0400 > > > > > > > >I'm sorry if anything I've said could be construed as bashing > > > religion. I > > > >have just heard about too many horrible, horrible things done in > the > > > name of > > > >religion over the millenia to not bash religion. I have also > > > experienced > > > >hostility at several points in my life because of my varying > > beliefs. > > > And I > > > >loathe organized religion's hostility toward women, a reason I > have > > > >jettisoned the whole business. > > > > > > > >Veganism is based in compassion; organized religion talks > > compassion, > > > but I > > > >sure don't see a whole lot of it from so-called religious > leaders. > > And > > > >while there are animal rights activists who do some horrible > things, > > > they > > > >cannot compare to the slaughter perpetuated in the name of > religion. > > > > > > > >Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an > earthquake " --Jeanette > > > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- > > > > " Amylia F " > > > > > > > > > > > > That's it. > > > >Wed, 07 May 2003 21:08:29 -0700 > > > > > > > >_______________ > > > >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > > >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > ><< message5.txt >> > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > -- > > > On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone > > > > > > To send an email to > > - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2003 Um, just because we don't believe in heaven/hell or the big guy in the sky has nothing to do with death. We just don't know what happens after we die, or believe that nothing happens. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Marit " <tuliratsu Re: Religion Mon, 12 May 2003 14:57:43 +0300 I wouldn't call my beliefs religion just faith, and there is a difference. Hey Tom, what if you were told that there is no 'big Daddy' not like religionists want you to believe. That there is no 'heaven' and you could never 'die'. That is one of the biggest illusions of humans! The fact is whether you believe in that kind of thing or you deny it, you still deny the very essence of religion, without knowing how things really work! But there is another way! Not a better way, merely another way! Marit We Are All One! - Vegecentric Tuesday, May 13, 2003 6:13 AM Re: Religion Religion is a crutch and a comfort to many people. I envy them; if I thought big Daddy was going to look after me in heaven when I died that would be great. Problem is, I just can't believe in nursery rhymes. Tom - " Dave " <tfalbb Sunday, May 11, 2003 10:37 AM Religion > Ok, as I said in my intro, I won't be tactful. > > Could someone explain to me why so many people have so little self belief, > that they would rather believe in a mythical being to rule their life, > rather than their own ideas? > > Is it so hard to have one's own beliefs, rather than trying to tie them to > some religion or other? > > Dave > > ---- > > > 11 May 2003 15:33:20 > > Re: That's it. > > > - > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > Monday, May 12, 2003 7:16 AM > Re: That's it. > > When I hear talk of Christianity..Catholicism dosn't come to mind. > > No disrespect to anyone who is seeking the truth and are with the Catholic > church. > > Simon > > > > If the subject of all the Catholic priests charged & convicted of raping > and > > molesting kids is raised (at least 50 in the last decade here in Oz, and > > increasing), my Mum denounces it all as a pack of anti-Catholic lies. None > > is so blind as those who will not see... > > > > Tom > > - > > " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart > > > > Saturday, May 10, 2003 8:20 AM > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > For a lovely example of Catholic hypocrisy, get this: one of the many > > > colleges here in DC is Catholic University of America. Last year, > > Attorney > > > General John Ashcroft gave the commencement speech. This year, after > > > student protests, DC Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton was disinvited from > > > giving a talk at the school's book store because she is pro-choice, > which > > we > > > all know runs counter to Catholic views. Ashcroft's enthusiastic > support > > > for the death penalty--which I believe the Pope opposes--evidently was > not > > > as important. Norton wasn't even going to discuss that; she was there > > > because a biography of her had been recently published. > > > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette > > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > > > > > > > Re: That's it. > > > Fri, 9 May 2003 20:37:39 -0700 > > > > > > I was raised strict catholic, and they are most conservative, > hypocritcal > > > bunch of pricks you'll meet. The Pope apparently blessed the (fascist) > > > Italian troops before going to war (WW2). > > > > > > Tom > > > - > > > simonpjones > > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:54 AM > > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Catherine Harris > > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 1:24 PM > > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > > > . The sermon was about Genesis, and centred on the fact that women > > > deserve pain, suffering because they are full of sin and ate the apple, > > > > > > Did they actually mention an apple as there is no mention of apples > > in > > > bibles I've read? > > > > > > You must of went to a catholic church or an anglican church as they > > in > > > my experience don't even denounce war. > > > > > > Why they don't read the gospels and try to preach what is said in > > them, > > > is strange to say the least. > > > > > > Simon > > > > > > > " Danielle Kichler " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Re: That's it. > > > >Thu, 08 May 2003 07:49:30 -0400 > > > > > > > >I'm sorry if anything I've said could be construed as bashing > > > religion. I > > > >have just heard about too many horrible, horrible things done in > the > > > name of > > > >religion over the millenia to not bash religion. I have also > > > experienced > > > >hostility at several points in my life because of my varying > > beliefs. > > > And I > > > >loathe organized religion's hostility toward women, a reason I > have > > > >jettisoned the whole business. > > > > > > > >Veganism is based in compassion; organized religion talks > > compassion, > > > but I > > > >sure don't see a whole lot of it from so-called religious leaders. > > And > > > >while there are animal rights activists who do some horrible > things, > > > they > > > >cannot compare to the slaughter perpetuated in the name of > religion. > > > > > > > >Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an > earthquake " --Jeanette > > > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- > > > > " Amylia F " > > > > > > > > > > > > That's it. > > > >Wed, 07 May 2003 21:08:29 -0700 > > > > > > > >_______________ > > > >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > > >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > ><< message5.txt >> > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > -- > > > On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone > > > > > > To send an email to > > - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2003 how can an infant believe in anything? he/she can't! he/she is born not believing in god; this is inculcated in to him/her from a very young age, as soon as the child is old enough to ask " Why? " Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Peter " <Snowbow Re: Religion Mon, 12 May 2003 17:50:25 +0100 Hi Danielle > While everyone is born an atheist (maybe an agnostic) I'd disagree with that - I would say that everyone is born as a deeply spiritual being, and it is gradually beaten out of us as we get older. The difference in " religions " is that people find vastly different ways to interpret the same things - particularly when there is something which can not have a frame of reference in a purely physical existence. :-) BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 _______________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2003 My mum would prefer veganism to atheism, but bad luck, struck out on both counts... Tom - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:42 PM Re: Religion > My mom doesn't have a problem with the feminist bit, and she's gotten over > the agnostic bit (especially since she goes to synagogue maybe twice a > year), but who knows when she'll accept the vegan bit. > > Danielle > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Catherine Harris " <cait2 > > > Re: Religion > Mon, 12 May 2003 03:17:16 +0000 > > _______________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2003 Agreed. As an atheist from age 16, and a vegan from age 18, I fully empathise with feelings of isolation, but hey, you can't help what you think and what you are. Tom - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:14 PM Re: Religion > That would be Ingrid Newkirk, president of PETA, who made such a will. I > noticed some vitriol in her piece, and I think it's just a little wacky, but > hey, it's her body, her decision. > > It just occurred to me, the link between following an organized religion and > meat-eating: we have these beliefs ingrained in us from a very young age. > It takes a lot of courage to fight the meat beliefs; it takes an equal > amount of courage to fight the God beliefs. As a vegan feminist agnostic, > I really am going against the grain on almost all levels. > > Danielle > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Marit " <tuliratsu > > > Re: Religion > Sun, 11 May 2003 23:28:00 +0300 > > Well Dave, I agree with you that not fighting against old beliefs which we > consider wrong (the fact that they are old does not make them necessarily > right) is a lack of self-belief. > > I also thought of that a couple of days ago when I saw lots of people > wearing leather jackets and coats. Why do they think another skin would make > them 'more beautiful' than they are? (well, not to me, but...) Are they > really that insecure? What do they have to hide to wear hair or skin of > another living creature? > > I'll never wear fur or leather. Not to mention my personal beliefs about the > cruelty of getting them but I feel very good in my own skin and would not > want to change that to an animal's who not to mention has suffered all > his/her life but would also not give it away without a fight. (and why > should s/he!) > > Which brings to mind a story I read on PETA about a woman who signed her > will that after her death her body parts are to be barbequed and her legs to > be made into umbrella posts and her skin be made into a bag to show the > unnecessary cruelty of producing goods and inflicting pain for money. Any of > you read it? > > Marit > > _______________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2003 Let's face it, most people reflect the beliefs they were brought up with. Tom - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:00 PM Re: Religion > Dave, > > It takes a lot of courage to fight what has been inculcated in you since > almost infancy. While everyone is born an atheist (maybe an agnostic), the > vast majority of families try to instill their children with " values, " which > usually translates to worshipping a being whose existence we cannot > determine. For millennia, humans did not know the answers to basic > questions, so they created gods and religions to explain them. Now that we > do know most of the answers, why do we need to feed people religion? > > Danielle > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Dave " <tfalbb > > > Religion > Sun, 11 May 2003 18:37:22 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) > > Ok, as I said in my intro, I won't be tactful. > > Could someone explain to me why so many people have so little self belief, > that they would rather believe in a mythical being to rule their life, > rather than their own ideas? > > Is it so hard to have one's own beliefs, rather than trying to tie them to > some religion or other? > > Dave > > ---- > > > 11 May 2003 15:33:20 > > Re: That's it. > > > - > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > Monday, May 12, 2003 7:16 AM > Re: That's it. > > When I hear talk of Christianity..Catholicism dosn't come to mind. > > No disrespect to anyone who is seeking the truth and are with the Catholic > church. > > Simon > > > > If the subject of all the Catholic priests charged & convicted of raping > and > > molesting kids is raised (at least 50 in the last decade here in Oz, and > > increasing), my Mum denounces it all as a pack of anti-Catholic lies. > None > > is so blind as those who will not see... > > > > Tom > > - > > " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart > > > > Saturday, May 10, 2003 8:20 AM > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > For a lovely example of Catholic hypocrisy, get this: one of the many > > > colleges here in DC is Catholic University of America. Last year, > > Attorney > > > General John Ashcroft gave the commencement speech. This year, after > > > student protests, DC Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton was disinvited from > > > giving a talk at the school's book store because she is pro-choice, > which > > we > > > all know runs counter to Catholic views. Ashcroft's enthusiastic > support > > > for the death penalty--which I believe the Pope opposes--evidently was > not > > > as important. Norton wasn't even going to discuss that; she was there > > > because a biography of her had been recently published. > > > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette > > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > > > > > > > Re: That's it. > > > Fri, 9 May 2003 20:37:39 -0700 > > > > > > I was raised strict catholic, and they are most conservative, > hypocritcal > > > bunch of pricks you'll meet. The Pope apparently blessed the (fascist) > > > Italian troops before going to war (WW2). > > > > > > Tom > > > - > > > simonpjones > > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:54 AM > > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Catherine Harris > > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 1:24 PM > > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > > > . The sermon was about Genesis, and centred on the fact that women > > > deserve pain, suffering because they are full of sin and ate the apple, > > > > > > Did they actually mention an apple as there is no mention of > apples > > in > > > bibles I've read? > > > > > > You must of went to a catholic church or an anglican church as > they > > in > > > my experience don't even denounce war. > > > > > > Why they don't read the gospels and try to preach what is said in > > them, > > > is strange to say the least. > > > > > > Simon > > > > > > > " Danielle Kichler " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Re: That's it. > > > >Thu, 08 May 2003 07:49:30 -0400 > > > > > > > >I'm sorry if anything I've said could be construed as bashing > > > religion. I > > > >have just heard about too many horrible, horrible things done in > the > > > name of > > > >religion over the millenia to not bash religion. I have also > > > experienced > > > >hostility at several points in my life because of my varying > > beliefs. > > > And I > > > >loathe organized religion's hostility toward women, a reason I > have > > > >jettisoned the whole business. > > > > > > > >Veganism is based in compassion; organized religion talks > > compassion, > > > but I > > > >sure don't see a whole lot of it from so-called religious > leaders. > > And > > > >while there are animal rights activists who do some horrible > things, > > > they > > > >cannot compare to the slaughter perpetuated in the name of > religion. > > > > > > > >Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an > earthquake " --Jeanette > > > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- > > > > " Amylia F " > > > > > > > > > > > > That's it. > > > >Wed, 07 May 2003 21:08:29 -0700 > > > > > > > >_______________ > > > >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > > >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > ><< message5.txt >> > > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > -- > > > On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone > > > > > > To send an email to > > - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2003 Religion is a crutch and a comfort to many people. I envy them; if I thought big Daddy was going to look after me in heaven when I died that would be great. Problem is, I just can't believe in nursery rhymes. Tom - " Dave " <tfalbb Sunday, May 11, 2003 10:37 AM Religion > Ok, as I said in my intro, I won't be tactful. > > Could someone explain to me why so many people have so little self belief, > that they would rather believe in a mythical being to rule their life, > rather than their own ideas? > > Is it so hard to have one's own beliefs, rather than trying to tie them to > some religion or other? > > Dave > > ---- > > > 11 May 2003 15:33:20 > > Re: That's it. > > > - > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > Monday, May 12, 2003 7:16 AM > Re: That's it. > > When I hear talk of Christianity..Catholicism dosn't come to mind. > > No disrespect to anyone who is seeking the truth and are with the Catholic > church. > > Simon > > > > If the subject of all the Catholic priests charged & convicted of raping > and > > molesting kids is raised (at least 50 in the last decade here in Oz, and > > increasing), my Mum denounces it all as a pack of anti-Catholic lies. None > > is so blind as those who will not see... > > > > Tom > > - > > " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart > > > > Saturday, May 10, 2003 8:20 AM > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > For a lovely example of Catholic hypocrisy, get this: one of the many > > > colleges here in DC is Catholic University of America. Last year, > > Attorney > > > General John Ashcroft gave the commencement speech. This year, after > > > student protests, DC Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton was disinvited from > > > giving a talk at the school's book store because she is pro-choice, > which > > we > > > all know runs counter to Catholic views. Ashcroft's enthusiastic > support > > > for the death penalty--which I believe the Pope opposes--evidently was > not > > > as important. Norton wasn't even going to discuss that; she was there > > > because a biography of her had been recently published. > > > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette > > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > > " Vegecentric " <vegecentric > > > > > > > > > Re: That's it. > > > Fri, 9 May 2003 20:37:39 -0700 > > > > > > I was raised strict catholic, and they are most conservative, > hypocritcal > > > bunch of pricks you'll meet. The Pope apparently blessed the (fascist) > > > Italian troops before going to war (WW2). > > > > > > Tom > > > - > > > simonpjones > > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 7:54 AM > > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > Catherine Harris > > > > > > Thursday, May 08, 2003 1:24 PM > > > Re: That's it. > > > > > > > > > . The sermon was about Genesis, and centred on the fact that women > > > deserve pain, suffering because they are full of sin and ate the apple, > > > > > > Did they actually mention an apple as there is no mention of apples > > in > > > bibles I've read? > > > > > > You must of went to a catholic church or an anglican church as they > > in > > > my experience don't even denounce war. > > > > > > Why they don't read the gospels and try to preach what is said in > > them, > > > is strange to say the least. > > > > > > Simon > > > > > > > " Danielle Kichler " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Re: That's it. > > > >Thu, 08 May 2003 07:49:30 -0400 > > > > > > > >I'm sorry if anything I've said could be construed as bashing > > > religion. I > > > >have just heard about too many horrible, horrible things done in > the > > > name of > > > >religion over the millenia to not bash religion. I have also > > > experienced > > > >hostility at several points in my life because of my varying > > beliefs. > > > And I > > > >loathe organized religion's hostility toward women, a reason I > have > > > >jettisoned the whole business. > > > > > > > >Veganism is based in compassion; organized religion talks > > compassion, > > > but I > > > >sure don't see a whole lot of it from so-called religious leaders. > > And > > > >while there are animal rights activists who do some horrible > things, > > > they > > > >cannot compare to the slaughter perpetuated in the name of > religion. > > > > > > > >Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an > earthquake " --Jeanette > > > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- > > > > " Amylia F " > > > > > > > > > > > > That's it. > > > >Wed, 07 May 2003 21:08:29 -0700 > > > > > > > >_______________ > > > >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > > >http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > ><< message5.txt >> > > > > > > > > > > -------- > > -- > > > On the move? Get Hotmail on your mobile phone > > > > > > To send an email to > > - > > > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted May 13, 2003 Hi Peter, > For instance, most people would argue that it is " logical " to believe that > there is no form of life after physical death - but since there is no > evidence for that, it is as much an assumption as believing " illogically " > that there is some form of life after physical death. I suppose that logic would make no assumption or claim as to whether there is life after death. Being without any evidence either way, there is nothing upon which to build a logical assumption. So I would say that it is illogical (captain!) to say that there is or there is not life after physical death. > But logic is based on the assumption that there is nothing which is not seen > to exist - I'm not sure logic assumes that, as I know some philosophies make an assumption that something unseen exists, then tries to deduct logically from this assumption. But in scientic terms, something which isn't detectable in any way (an exsention of 'seen') is often does not exist. And logic and science are fairly closely entwined. John - " Peter " <Snowbow Monday, May 12, 2003 6:15 PM Re: Religion > Hi John > > > I'd say logic is a way of looking at the world based on what is seen to > > exist, whilst a religion is a way of looking at the world based on > > assumptions of what is not seen to exist, but taken on faith to do so. > > But logic is based on the assumption that there is nothing which is not seen > to exist - so is every bit as much a religious following as anything else. > For instance, most people would argue that it is " logical " to believe that > there is no form of life after physical death - but since there is no > evidence for that, it is as much an assumption as believing " illogically " > that there is some form of life after physical death. > > BB > Peter > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
