Shang Han Herbs/ Wen Bing Herbs

March 28, 2010

does huang qin actually vent? I am not sure about the word vent. Isn't venting

a way to clear a pathogenic factor from the surface? Am I missing something?

Chai hu vents. We could say that Ma huang vents, but it vents cold.

I think you are correct, sweat, urination and purgation are the 3 main ways we

clear heat in the body.

Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's acridity affects

its function. We use Shi Gao for clearing Yang Ming heat. for thirst, for

fevers, epidemics and sweating. but it doesn't VENT per se, because it clears

heat to stop sweating. and when ma huang and shi Gao are combined, MH's

diaphoretic action is moderated

Dr Huang has a really interesting take on ma huang. He really opens up its use.

He talks about doors being open and doors being closed. Ma huang and ma huang

formula families are used to open the doors: thus we can use it to promote

sweating, but he also might use it to promote ovulation for a woman with a ma

haunt constitution. He talks about its use to help dilate the cervix for

prolonged labor.

Gui Zhi and gui zhi formulas, on the other hand, are used when the doors are

open. LIke using gui zhi tang for a person who catches colds or sweats easily

from deficiency.

Cara

On Mar 27, 2010, at 5:01 PM, wrote:

> Yes, Huang qin for venting heat...

> Huang Huang describes 3 levels of Huang qin combinations for this in

> " Clinical Application of 50 Medicinals " pg. 280

>

> 1. Heat accumulation in the Qi level, use with Chai hu.. ie. Xiao chai hu

> tang, Da chai hu tang,

> Chai hu gui zhi gan jiang tang and Chai hu gui zhi tang

>

> 2. Heat accumulation in the Blood level, use with Shao yao... Gui zhi Chai

> hu tang, Huang qin tang,

> Da chai hu tang, Huang lian e jiao tang, Bie jia jian wan, Da huang zhe

> chong wan, Ben tun tang,

> Wang bu liu xing san, Dang gui san

>

> 3. Damp-heat obstructing the Center, use with Huang lian...

> Xie xin tang formulas, Ge gen huang qin huang lian tang, Gan jiang huang qin

> huang lian ren shen tang,

> Huang lian e jiao tang

>

> What about Chai hu? any others in the Shang han lun?

> Most pungent herbs fan fire for shang han...

> How do you see heat being vented other than purging and through urination?

> Sweat?

> Ma huang opens pores in the Tai yin, is this considered heat ventilation?

> Is Shi gao really pungent? (Cara)

>

> Cara, I didn't go to Huang Huang's SF seminar. I've been doing Arnaud

> Versluys' 1.5 year program

> and reading both of Huang Huang's books.

>

> K

>

> O

March 28, 2010

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 5:39 AM, cara <herbbabe wrote:

>

> I think you are correct, sweat, urination and purgation are the 3 main ways

> we clear heat in the body.

>

> Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's acridity

> affects its function.

>

Tiende Yang speaks of how shi gao's pungent flavor can spray heat outward,

then the cold qi cools it.

The premise being that if you spread out the heat to reduce its concentrated

and localized quality, it is easier to cool.

-al.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

March 28, 2010

Cara:

Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's

acridity affects its function. We use Shi Gao for clearing Yang

Ming heat. for thirst, for fevers, epidemics and sweating. but it

doesn't VENT per se, because it clears heat to stop sweating. and

when ma huang and shi Gao are combined, MH's diaphoretic action

is moderated

Stephen

it doesn't VENT per se...

I think you are exactly correct here. The model we practice under

goes something like this:

What is referred to as Yangming " channel " presentation is a

failure of Yangming closure (Suwen 6). Due to this failed

closure, the patient's yang has moved to the exterior, causing it

to open and sweat to issue and heat to be greatly emitted.

Shigao's acrid nature (which can be experienced by putting a

little pulverized shigao on your tongue) brings its function to

the exterior. The extremely cold nature closes the exterior. The

heavy nature then descends and internalizes the yang (as it

should in health) basically undoing the pathology described in

SHL Line 176.

So, I agree with your observation, Cara, it doesn't vent heat, it

internalizes it

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:

http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html

March 28, 2010

Hi Cara, Jason and all,

Yes... it would be useful to clarify how the SHL methodologies

differ from the Wen bing ones... and then later develop ways to understand

both schools better through this differentiation.

The SHL developed between Yellow/ Yangtse river (Hunan) = north/west =

cold-dryness.

The Wen bing school began at Fujian (below the Yangtse river) = south-east =

wind-heat, port city (pathogen trade) = wind-heat, damp-heat.

Would you agree with this statement?

SHL = formulaism (find the formulation). Wen bing = herbalism (find the

herb that works)

It seems that they're both useful for different situations,

but it would be erroneous to say that the SHL formulations are not effective

for warm disease.

It's just that the Han dynasty thinkers (Nei jing/ Nan jing / Shang han za

bing lun) were " sun-worshippers " who believed in the preservation of yang

Qi, even while effusing pathogenic heat from the body or regulating the ying

Qi with the wei Qi.

Here's a bit of my notes from A. Versluys' lecture on SHL

patho-physiology...

" Cold = acute element, when one falls ill immediately; If one doesn’t fall

immediately, the toxin is stored in the muscles and skin and in spring time,

people becomes sick (warm dz) and in summer time (heat dz). In spring time

yang rises and pushes out the dz. The Qi of spring is warm. Qi of summer is

hot, Qi of autumn is cool, Qi of winter is cold. Your body borrows the Qi

of nature. If you don’t store in winter, then you’ll be sick the next

season. If the patient doesn’t get sick in one season, they’ll show the

signs next season "

This follows lines from the Nei jing in connection with time and nature that

we forget these days. This is the profound relationship that the Han

dynasty thinkers had with our inner/ outer nature.

Nan jing 58. There are 5 types of cold damage… wind strike (wood), cold

damage(water), damp warmth(earth), heat (fire) and warmth (metal)…

The Shang han zan bing lun formulas can treat all of these pathogenic

factors, but the underlying theme seems to be preservation of yang Qi, as

we're warm-blooded animals, requiring yang Qi for life functioning. Yang Qi

is life... when it leaves us completely (separation), we're done for. Zhang

Zhong Jing's formulas are the original Spleen/Stomach school... check out

the formulas..consistently preserving the central burner and upholding the

clear Yang Qi.

How was the Wen bing school(s) a reaction or development of this?

and in what cases do you choose Wen bing formulas over SHL formulas?

K

--

""

www.tcmreview.com

March 28, 2010

Stephen, Cara, Jason and all,

yes.. Venting is an interesting concept in the SHL sense...

Which herbs or herbal combination would make this happen?

Does Ma huang vent heat? Ma huang is a Tai yin/Tai yang herb.

If it opens the doors/pores, would it also " vent " heat in combination with

Shi gao?

by opening the door and letting the heat escape?

What about Chai hu? Shao yang is the pivot... supposedly it brings the

fire downwards.

Is it true that yang conformational herbs generally descend, while yin

conformational herbs ascend? Yang channels descend, while Yin channels

ascend. Then, Chai hu would be primarily a descending herb, not an

ascending herb, as we're taught in TCM, right?

When Li Dong Yuan uses Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang, is it to downbear the

turbid yin, in order to raise the clear yang? or is it a cool, light herb

that makes the Qi float and " vent " ?

Does it's directionality depend on the dosage and the combination of herbs

it's used with?

K

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 9:32 AM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

>

> Cara:

>

> Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's

> acridity affects its function. We use Shi Gao for clearing Yang

> Ming heat. for thirst, for fevers, epidemics and sweating. but it

> doesn't VENT per se, because it clears heat to stop sweating. and

> when ma huang and shi Gao are combined, MH's diaphoretic action

> is moderated

>

> Stephen

> it doesn't VENT per se...

> I think you are exactly correct here. The model we practice under

> goes something like this:

>

> What is referred to as Yangming " channel " presentation is a

> failure of Yangming closure (Suwen 6). Due to this failed

> closure, the patient's yang has moved to the exterior, causing it

> to open and sweat to issue and heat to be greatly emitted.

> Shigao's acrid nature (which can be experienced by putting a

> little pulverized shigao on your tongue) brings its function to

> the exterior. The extremely cold nature closes the exterior. The

> heavy nature then descends and internalizes the yang (as it

> should in health) basically undoing the pathology described in

> SHL Line 176.

> So, I agree with your observation, Cara, it doesn't vent heat, it

> internalizes it

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

> www.shanghanlunseminars.com

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:

> http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html

>

March 28, 2010

Thanks John (and others) for the notes/thoughts you are sharing. All very

interesting.

RoseAnne

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:47 PM, <johnkokko wrote:

> Hi Cara, Jason and all,

>

> Yes... it would be useful to clarify how the SHL methodologies

> differ from the Wen bing ones... and then later develop ways to understand

> both schools better through this differentiation.

>

> The SHL developed between Yellow/ Yangtse river (Hunan) = north/west =

> cold-dryness.

> The Wen bing school began at Fujian (below the Yangtse river) = south-east

> =

> wind-heat, port city (pathogen trade) = wind-heat, damp-heat.

>

> Would you agree with this statement?

>

> SHL = formulaism (find the formulation). Wen bing = herbalism (find the

> herb that works)

> It seems that they're both useful for different situations,

> but it would be erroneous to say that the SHL formulations are not

> effective

> for warm disease.

> It's just that the Han dynasty thinkers (Nei jing/ Nan jing / Shang han za

> bing lun) were " sun-worshippers " who believed in the preservation of yang

> Qi, even while effusing pathogenic heat from the body or regulating the

> ying

> Qi with the wei Qi.

>

> Here's a bit of my notes from A. Versluys' lecture on SHL

> patho-physiology...

>

> " Cold = acute element, when one falls ill immediately; If one doesn’t fall

> immediately, the toxin is stored in the muscles and skin and in spring

> time,

> people becomes sick (warm dz) and in summer time (heat dz). In spring time

> yang rises and pushes out the dz. The Qi of spring is warm. Qi of summer

> is

> hot, Qi of autumn is cool, Qi of winter is cold. Your body borrows the Qi

> of nature. If you don’t store in winter, then you’ll be sick the next

> season. If the patient doesn’t get sick in one season, they’ll show the

> signs next season "

>

> This follows lines from the Nei jing in connection with time and nature

> that

> we forget these days. This is the profound relationship that the Han

> dynasty thinkers had with our inner/ outer nature.

> Nan jing 58. There are 5 types of cold damage… wind strike (wood), cold

> damage(water), damp warmth(earth), heat (fire) and warmth (metal)…

>

> The Shang han zan bing lun formulas can treat all of these pathogenic

> factors, but the underlying theme seems to be preservation of yang Qi, as

> we're warm-blooded animals, requiring yang Qi for life functioning. Yang

> Qi

> is life... when it leaves us completely (separation), we're done for.

> Zhang

> Zhong Jing's formulas are the original Spleen/Stomach school... check out

> the formulas..consistently preserving the central burner and upholding the

> clear Yang Qi.

>

> How was the Wen bing school(s) a reaction or development of this?

> and in what cases do you choose Wen bing formulas over SHL formulas?

>

> K

>

--

>

> ""

>

> www.tcmreview.com

>

March 28, 2010

(see below)

On Behalf Of

(John)

SHL = formulaism (find the formulation). Wen bing = herbalism (find the

herb that works)

- I think this is a bit incorrect, any misunderstanding of

warm disease theory...

(John) but it would be erroneous to say that the SHL formulations are not

effective

for warm disease.

- I don't believe for a minute that SHL can treat the full

range of warm diseases.

-Jason

March 28, 2010

Do you have any source that says that Chai Hu descends?

-Jason

On Behalf Of

What about Chai hu? Shao yang is the pivot... supposedly it brings the

fire downwards.

Is it true that yang conformational herbs generally descend, while yin

conformational herbs ascend? Yang channels descend, while Yin channels

ascend. Then, Chai hu would be primarily a descending herb, not an

ascending herb, as we're taught in TCM, right?

When Li Dong Yuan uses Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang, is it to downbear the

turbid yin, in order to raise the clear yang? or is it a cool, light herb

that makes the Qi float and " vent " ?

Does it's directionality depend on the dosage and the combination of herbs

it's used with?

K

March 28, 2010

thank you Stephen. that is a very helpful image

Cara

On Mar 28, 2010, at 12:32 PM, stephen woodley wrote:

> Cara:

> Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's

> acridity affects its function. We use Shi Gao for clearing Yang

> Ming heat. for thirst, for fevers, epidemics and sweating. but it

> doesn't VENT per se, because it clears heat to stop sweating. and

> when ma huang and shi Gao are combined, MH's diaphoretic action

> is moderated

>

> Stephen

> it doesn't VENT per se...

> I think you are exactly correct here. The model we practice under

> goes something like this:

>

> What is referred to as Yangming " channel " presentation is a

> failure of Yangming closure (Suwen 6). Due to this failed

> closure, the patient's yang has moved to the exterior, causing it

> to open and sweat to issue and heat to be greatly emitted.

> Shigao's acrid nature (which can be experienced by putting a

> little pulverized shigao on your tongue) brings its function to

> the exterior. The extremely cold nature closes the exterior. The

> heavy nature then descends and internalizes the yang (as it

> should in health) basically undoing the pathology described in

> SHL Line 176.

> So, I agree with your observation, Cara, it doesn't vent heat, it

> internalizes it

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

> www.shanghanlunseminars.com

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:

> http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html

>

March 28, 2010

I think it does vent heat when combined with shi gao. that is the basis for ma

xing shi gan tang. and also yue bi tang.

another formula that uses this dui yao is fang feng tong sheng san and the

focus there is on interior/ exterior excess.

I have never seen ay reference to chai hu descending. The closest analogy to

that that i can think of is the use of sheng ma in the formula Ji Chuan Jian; in

that formula the sheng ma raises the clear qi so that the turbid can descend. in

BZYQT, chai hu supports huang qi in raising the qi- collapse, prolapse, etc. and

also may have a role in venting a latent pathogenic factor ( BZYQT is referenced

for low grade lingering fevers).

Yang comes down from heaven, yin comes up from the earth: this may be the

imagery that you are looking for??

Cara

On Mar 28, 2010, at 2:55 PM, wrote:

> Stephen, Cara, Jason and all,

> yes.. Venting is an interesting concept in the SHL sense...

> Which herbs or herbal combination would make this happen?

>

> Does Ma huang vent heat? Ma huang is a Tai yin/Tai yang herb.

> If it opens the doors/pores, would it also " vent " heat in combination with

> Shi gao?

> by opening the door and letting the heat escape?

>

> What about Chai hu? Shao yang is the pivot... supposedly it brings the

> fire downwards.

> Is it true that yang conformational herbs generally descend, while yin

> conformational herbs ascend? Yang channels descend, while Yin channels

> ascend. Then, Chai hu would be primarily a descending herb, not an

> ascending herb, as we're taught in TCM, right?

>

> When Li Dong Yuan uses Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang, is it to downbear the

> turbid yin, in order to raise the clear yang? or is it a cool, light herb

> that makes the Qi float and " vent " ?

> Does it's directionality depend on the dosage and the combination of herbs

> it's used with?

>

> K

>

> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 9:32 AM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

>

> >

> > Cara:

> >

> > Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's

> > acridity affects its function. We use Shi Gao for clearing Yang

> > Ming heat. for thirst, for fevers, epidemics and sweating. but it

> > doesn't VENT per se, because it clears heat to stop sweating. and

> > when ma huang and shi Gao are combined, MH's diaphoretic action

> > is moderated

> >

> > Stephen

> > it doesn't VENT per se...

> > I think you are exactly correct here. The model we practice under

> > goes something like this:

> >

> > What is referred to as Yangming " channel " presentation is a

> > failure of Yangming closure (Suwen 6). Due to this failed

> > closure, the patient's yang has moved to the exterior, causing it

> > to open and sweat to issue and heat to be greatly emitted.

> > Shigao's acrid nature (which can be experienced by putting a

> > little pulverized shigao on your tongue) brings its function to

> > the exterior. The extremely cold nature closes the exterior. The

> > heavy nature then descends and internalizes the yang (as it

> > should in health) basically undoing the pathology described in

> > SHL Line 176.

> > So, I agree with your observation, Cara, it doesn't vent heat, it

> > internalizes it

> >

> > Stephen Woodley LAc

> > www.shanghanlunseminars.com

> >

> > --

> > http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:

> > http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html

> >

March 28, 2010

Jason,

the Shen nong ben cao jing lists Chai hu as a superior class herb that has

the following properties: bitter taste with balanced Qi. (Blue Poppy pg.

28)

Since channels were not listed until around a thousand years later, the

taste of the herb told us about the directionality of the herbs. I don't

think anyone would debate that the bitter taste is down-bearing / draining,

according to the classics. (well, maybe we can debate about this too)

If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does today

in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that we're

looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs such

as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi.

I posed this as a question, not a statement. So, is it a consensus that

Chai hu is sweet and acrid, raising the clear yang Qi?... not according to

the Shen nong ben cao jing.

Is this the way that the SHL viewed Chai hu (sweet and acrid) or is this a

development from the Pi wei lun school?

Li dong yuan uses 2-3 fen of Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang in relation to

1 qian of Huang qi, 5 fen of Zhi gan cao and between 2-3 fen each for the

rest of the ingredients in the formula...

pg. 87 Treatise on the Spleen & Stomach New edition 2004 Blue Poppy.

Dosages in the SHL of Chai hu range from 1/2 Jin (~24 gms) for Xiao chai hu

tang to 8 gms for Si ni san (pgs. 158-159 Clinical Application of 50

Medicinals Huang Huang)

How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and

down?

K

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 1:05 PM, <

> wrote:

>

> Do you have any source that says that Chai Hu descends?

>

> -Jason

>

> <%40>

>

[ <%40>\

]

> On Behalf Of

>

> What about Chai hu? Shao yang is the pivot... supposedly it brings the

> fire downwards.

> Is it true that yang conformational herbs generally descend, while yin

> conformational herbs ascend? Yang channels descend, while Yin channels

> ascend. Then, Chai hu would be primarily a descending herb, not an

> ascending herb, as we're taught in TCM, right?

>

> When Li Dong Yuan uses Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang, is it to downbear

> the

> turbid yin, in order to raise the clear yang? or is it a cool, light herb

> that makes the Qi float and " vent " ?

> Does it's directionality depend on the dosage and the combination of herbs

> it's used with?

>

> K

>

March 28, 2010

Jason:

do you have any source that says that Chai Hu descends?

Stephen:

Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing

Chai Hu is bitter and balanced...

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free

March 28, 2010

Kokko

SHL = formulaism (find the formulation). Wen bing = herbalism

(find the herb that works)

Stephen:

I agree with the non-parenthetical part

SHL = formulaism (is that a word?)

Wen Bing = herbalism

but I am not sure that the exact wording: find the herb that

works

represents your thoughts accurately. It could be interpreted as

saying that Wen Bing treats with single herbs which I know is not

what you meant.

how about this one?

SHL = functional (pulse based)

WB = material (tongue based)

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

March 28, 2010

Just to be clear SNBCJ does not say chai hu descends. I think you are

reading into this idea of bitterness. I am not aware of anything that says

that a bitter herb must descend. Just for the record, in the SNBCJ both ju

hua and ma huang (among others) are bitter.

Modern materia medicas often assign an herb to be ¡°bitter¡± and also

¡°ascend¡±, for example, ma huang is ¡°bitter its taste is thin, and it is

the yang within yin, it therefore produces sweat and ascends.¡± Jiao Shu-de

also says Chai hu is *bitter* yet uplifts yang qi. (as does Bensky)

BTW ¨C draining does not equal downbearing or descending, I think we have a

terminology issue here. Drains = xie (ža or Ð¹), and descend or directs

downwards is usually something like jiang (½µ).

So we have phrases that clearly talk about downbearing with bitterness such

as ¡°open with acridity and downbear with bitterness¡± (ÐÁ¿ª¿à½µ xin kai ku

jiang), but as with all Chinese medicine it does not mean that all

bitterness downbears. Quite simply, many herbs¡¯ taste are due to the actual

taste, for example bitter. But such a taste still can ascend.

-Jason

On Behalf Of

Sunday, March 28, 2010 3:34 PM

Re: Shang Han Herbs/ Wen Bing Herbs

Jason,

the Shen nong ben cao jing lists Chai hu as a superior class herb that has

the following properties: bitter taste with balanced Qi. (Blue Poppy pg.

28)

Since channels were not listed until around a thousand years later, the

taste of the herb told us about the directionality of the herbs. I don't

think anyone would debate that the bitter taste is down-bearing / draining,

according to the classics. (well, maybe we can debate about this too)

If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does today

in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that we're

looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs such

as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi.

I posed this as a question, not a statement. So, is it a consensus that

Chai hu is sweet and acrid, raising the clear yang Qi?... not according to

the Shen nong ben cao jing.

Is this the way that the SHL viewed Chai hu (sweet and acrid) or is this a

development from the Pi wei lun school?

Li dong yuan uses 2-3 fen of Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang in relation to

1 qian of Huang qi, 5 fen of Zhi gan cao and between 2-3 fen each for the

rest of the ingredients in the formula...

pg. 87 Treatise on the Spleen & Stomach New edition 2004 Blue Poppy.

Dosages in the SHL of Chai hu range from 1/2 Jin (~24 gms) for Xiao chai hu

tang to 8 gms for Si ni san (pgs. 158-159 Clinical Application of 50

Medicinals Huang Huang)

How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and

down?

K

March 28, 2010

Stephen,

that's funny... I'm not sure if the WB network would agree with your

statement either...

" SHL = functional (pulse based)

WB = material (tongue based) "

I can definitely agree that the SHL is not tongue based, as this is a much

later diagnostic feature used in the SHL,

but the Wen bing might also be pulse based as well.

I think that most people will think that the WB is functional as well as

material,

just as the SHL is both.

One thing that seems clear is that the SHL can deal with both cold and warm

pathogens,

but emphasizes shang han, while the WB emphatically does not deal with shang

han.

My question is... if you live in a northern city are you seeing more SHL or

WB cases?

and what about in Miami? What about in a climate like Boulder, CO, where

it's dry and hot in the summer

and dry and cold in the Winter?

K

e <>

> .

>

--

""

www.tcmreview.com

March 28, 2010

There are a lot of issues and questions to be asked here...

1. Are herb tastes more functional or literal in the SNBCJ and in modern

materia medicas?

2. Did the SHL follow the SNBCJ herb flavors and Qi descriptions

or a different materia medica that existed at that time period?

3. Did the SHL follow the Nei jing rules of tastes? (Chap 22, 74)

4. Are we to follow the SNBCJ herb flavors and descriptions

or a modern materia medica, such as Jiao Shu-De or Bensky for our

understandings of herbs today?

What about for our understanding of SHL formulas?

Does the SNBCJ say that bitter Ju hua or Ma huang ascends or descends?

It does say that Ma huang is " bitter and warm.... effuses the exterior

through sweating (doesn't say ascend)...

suppresses cough and counterflow qi ascent (this could be construed actually

that this bitter herb actually makes Qi descend)

pg. 51 Blue Poppy SNBCJ

Ju hua is also listed as " bitter and balanced " , but does not say that it

makes Qi ascend or descend. I'm wondering if the Ju hua listed in the SNBCJ

was closer to ye ju hua, which definitely tastes bitter to the tongue or the

bai ju hua that grows in Hang zhou, which literally tastes sweet.

Su wen chapter 74 :

Of the six flavors, 3 are yin and 3 are yang. Yin = salty, bitter, sour

Yang = sweet, pungent, bland

Line 122...

" Qi-bo replied: Pungent and sweet flavors, which can initiate and disperse,

belong to yang.

Sour and bitter flavors, which can excrete belong to yin. Salty flavor,

which can excrete belongs to yin.

Mild flavor (bland), which can penetrate and excrete, belongs to yang. "

pg. 350 Henry Lu 2004

Jason, I never said that downbearing (jiang) equals draining (xie) in

terminology,

but if an herb is draining, really which direction is it going to go?

K

2010/3/28

>

> Just to be clear SNBCJ does not say chai hu descends. I think you are

> reading into this idea of bitterness. I am not aware of anything that says

> that a bitter herb must descend. Just for the record, in the SNBCJ both ju

> hua and ma huang (among others) are bitter.

>

> Modern materia medicas often assign an herb to be " bitter " and also

> " ascend " , for example, ma huang is " bitter its taste is thin, and it is

> the yang within yin, it therefore produces sweat and ascends. " Jiao Shu-de

> also says Chai hu is *bitter* yet uplifts yang qi. (as does Bensky)

>

> BTW - draining does not equal downbearing or descending, I think we have a

> terminology issue here. Drains = xie (ža or Ð¹), and descend or directs

> downwards is usually something like jiang (½µ).

>

> So we have phrases that clearly talk about downbearing with bitterness such

> as " open with acridity and downbear with bitterness " (ÐÁ¿ª¿à½µ xin kai ku

> jiang), but as with all Chinese medicine it does not mean that all

> bitterness downbears. Quite simply, many herbs' taste are due to the actual

> taste, for example bitter. But such a taste still can ascend.

>

> -Jason

>

> <%40>

>

[ <%40>\

]

> On Behalf Of

> Sunday, March 28, 2010 3:34 PM

> <%40>

> Re: Shang Han Herbs/ Wen Bing Herbs

>

> Jason,

> the Shen nong ben cao jing lists Chai hu as a superior class herb that has

> the following properties: bitter taste with balanced Qi. (Blue Poppy pg.

> 28)

>

> Since channels were not listed until around a thousand years later, the

> taste of the herb told us about the directionality of the herbs. I don't

> think anyone would debate that the bitter taste is down-bearing / draining,

> according to the classics. (well, maybe we can debate about this too)

>

> If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does

> today

> in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that

> we're

> looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs

> such

> as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi.

>

> I posed this as a question, not a statement. So, is it a consensus that

> Chai hu is sweet and acrid, raising the clear yang Qi?... not according to

> the Shen nong ben cao jing.

>

> Is this the way that the SHL viewed Chai hu (sweet and acrid) or is this a

> development from the Pi wei lun school?

>

> Li dong yuan uses 2-3 fen of Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang in relation to

> 1 qian of Huang qi, 5 fen of Zhi gan cao and between 2-3 fen each for the

> rest of the ingredients in the formula...

> pg. 87 Treatise on the Spleen & Stomach New edition 2004 Blue Poppy.

>

> Dosages in the SHL of Chai hu range from 1/2 Jin (~24 gms) for Xiao chai hu

> tang to 8 gms for Si ni san (pgs. 158-159 Clinical Application of 50

> Medicinals Huang Huang)

>

> How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and

> down?

>

> K

>

March 28, 2010

Jason-

With respect to chaihu, it is predominantly a gallbladder/shaoyang

medicinal in the SHL/JGYL, no? I think we can agree that chaihu

frees the flow within the gallbladder channel. The flow of the

gallbladder channel (and yang in general) is from top to bottom.

Wouldn't it make more sense to talk of bitter chaihu as descending

gallbladder qi? Perhaps the way in which it " lifts " is in ensuring

that the gallbladder properly descends thus allowing the liver qi to

rise?

The main reason I think that chaihu has a strong descending property

(and maybe this is because of the dose I regularly use in XCHT and

its modifications) is that I have used it to great effect like that

in clinic so often.

-Steve

Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. O.M.

http://www.health-traditions.com

sbonzak

773-470-6994

On Mar 28, 2010, at 9:53 PM, wrote:

> I am not aware of anything that says

> that a bitter herb must descend.

March 28, 2010

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 2:33 PM, <johnkokko wrote:

>

> If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does

> today

> in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that

> we're

> looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs

> such

> as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi.

>

I don't think that Chai hu lifts through the tai yin. This is a shao yang

herb. The shao yang has a natural upward direction. It is like the rising

warming sun. Tiende Yang once said that the shao yang is the warm energy

that lifts the tai yin upward.

>

> How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and

> down?

>

chai hu for guiding to or regulating the shao yang: small dosage

chai hu for lifting: medium dosage

chai hu for venting heat: large dosage

This is how I think of it, anyway.

-al.

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

March 29, 2010

Stephen B

I think we can agree that chaihu frees the flow within the

gallbladder channel. The flow of the

gallbladder channel (and yang in general) is from top to bottom.

Wouldn't it make more sense to talk of bitter chaihu as

descending gallbladder qi?

Stephen W

Excellent point - well made

Jason, in the past you've made the excellent point that when

analyzing classical texts, one should use classical dictionaries.

Along these lines, quoting 20th century texts to define something

from the Han Dynasty is perhaps off target.

Question:

What functions do you ascribe to the bitter taste and what are

the mechinisms by which you would say that this is accomplished?

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different...

March 29, 2010

Steve et al,

This is a interesting proposition, but I still do not understand why it

" makes sense to talk about bitter chai hu as descending gallbladder qi? " It

might be useful for you to submit such a case study that demonstrates that

Chai Hu descends gallbladder qi. As is, I just don't get it.

It is my opinion, instead of trying to create a new function for the herb it

may be useful to try to explain things from what we know from historical

record and theory. There are many ways to explain why one might see a

" descending " result from something like chai hu. For example, constraint of

wood can inhibit the qi dynamic (e.g. ascending and descending functions) of

the liver and gallbladder as well as the middle burner. Therefore merely

resolving constraint can have an effect on the ascending and descending

functions.

However possibly more important is what is said in The Yellow Emperor's

Classic of Internal Medicine-The Simple Questions-Hung Di Nei Jing-Su Wen.

It states, " When the clear yang is not upborne then the turbid yin cannot be

downborne. " The Medical Chapters (Yi Pian) states, " If one desires upbear

it, one must first downbear it and only afterward will it be upborne, if one

desires to downbear it, one must first upbear it and only afterward will it

be downborne. "

This point is simple. If one has turbid yin in the head (and it needs to

descend) then one does *not* employ descending medicinals. Contrarily, one

employs ascending medicinals which then creates a descending action.

Consequently, these medicinals that ascend are not considered descending

medicinals because they have this secondary action. Li Gao sums this up,

" Although down-bearing [methods] are indicated, one may simultaneously use

up-bearing methods, Once the clear yang has been up-borne, the [qi] of a

turbid nature must easily be down-borne. When upbearing, one may not

simultaneously use down-bearing [methods in equal degrees] lest one assist

in the force of its downward fall. In addition, [such a strategy] does not

support the strength of the up-bearing medicinals. "

Therefore jie geng ascends the clear yang and consequently assists and

descending turbid yin. It is *not* that jie geng descends. The same can be

said for others such as chaihu.

I still would like to see some historical evidence of people talking about

chai hu descending otherwise I see no point in trying to make up new theory

(at my level at least).

Regards,

-Jason

On Behalf Of Stephen Bonzak

Sunday, March 28, 2010 10:15 PM

Re: Shang Han Herbs/ Wen Bing Herbs

Jason-

With respect to chaihu, it is predominantly a gallbladder/shaoyang

medicinal in the SHL/JGYL, no? I think we can agree that chaihu

frees the flow within the gallbladder channel. The flow of the

gallbladder channel (and yang in general) is from top to bottom.

Wouldn't it make more sense to talk of bitter chaihu as descending

gallbladder qi? Perhaps the way in which it " lifts " is in ensuring

that the gallbladder properly descends thus allowing the liver qi to

rise?

The main reason I think that chaihu has a strong descending property

(and maybe this is because of the dose I regularly use in XCHT and

its modifications) is that I have used it to great effect like that

in clinic so often.

-Steve

Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. O.M.

http://www.health-traditions.com

sbonzak <sbonzak%40pacificcollege.edu>

773-470-6994

On Mar 28, 2010, at 9:53 PM, wrote:

March 29, 2010

Al, we're not exactly on the same page....

I'm saying that Chai hu is a shao yang conformation herb (SHL),

which is viewed as assisting tai yin conformational herbs such as Ren shen

and Huang qi

to upbear clear yang Qi..

The Spleen (tai yin) is known as the predominant organ to upbear clear yang

Qi, right?

Now, the mechanism in which Chai hu does this is the matter of debate.

Does it downbear turbid yin or dredge the shao yang channel (GB) in order to

allow for the clear yang Qi to ascend?

or does it ascend directly through the GB channel?

For dosages of Chai hu

I learned it a little differently than you listed...

small dose to raise Qi (Bu zhong yi qi tang),

middle dose to harmonize Qi (Si ni san, Xiao yao san)

high dose to clear heat from Shao yang (Xiao chai hu tang)

K

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Al Stone <al wrote:

>

> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 2:33 PM,

<johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> > If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does

> > today

> > in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that

> > we're

> > looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs

> > such

> > as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi.

> >

> I don't think that Chai hu lifts through the tai yin. This is a shao yang

> herb. The shao yang has a natural upward direction. It is like the rising

> warming sun. Tiende Yang once said that the shao yang is the warm energy

> that lifts the tai yin upward.

>

> >

> > How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and

> > down?

> >

>

> chai hu for guiding to or regulating the shao yang: small dosage

> chai hu for lifting: medium dosage

> chai hu for venting heat: large dosage

>

> This is how I think of it, anyway.

>

> -al.

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> http://twitter.com/algancao

>

March 29, 2010

this is how I learned it as well.

>

> small dose to raise Qi (Bu zhong yi qi tang),

> middle dose to harmonize Qi (Si ni san, Xiao yao san)

> high dose to clear heat from Shao yang (Xiao chai hu tang)

> K

>

> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Al Stone <al wrote:

>

> >

> > On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 2:33 PM,

<johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>>

> > wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does

> > > today

> > > in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that

> > > we're

> > > looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs

> > > such

> > > as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi.

> > >

> > I don't think that Chai hu lifts through the tai yin. This is a shao yang

> > herb. The shao yang has a natural upward direction. It is like the rising

> > warming sun. Tiende Yang once said that the shao yang is the warm energy

> > that lifts the tai yin upward.

> >

> > >

> > > How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and

> > > down?

> > >

> >

> > chai hu for guiding to or regulating the shao yang: small dosage

> > chai hu for lifting: medium dosage

> > chai hu for venting heat: large dosage

> >

> > This is how I think of it, anyway.

> >

> > -al.

> >

> > --

> > , DAOM

> > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> > http://twitter.com/algancao

> >

March 29, 2010

John,

WB also deals with cold damage. For example, spring warmth disease is

spurred by a new attack of wind or cold that stirs up latent warmth. . .

On Mar 28, 2010, at 8:11 PM, wrote:

> Stephen,

> that's funny... I'm not sure if the WB network would agree with your

> statement either...

> " SHL = functional (pulse based)

> WB = material (tongue based) "

>

> I can definitely agree that the SHL is not tongue based, as this is a much

> later diagnostic feature used in the SHL,

> but the Wen bing might also be pulse based as well.

> I think that most people will think that the WB is functional as well as

> material,

> just as the SHL is both.

>

> One thing that seems clear is that the SHL can deal with both cold and warm

> pathogens,

> but emphasizes shang han, while the WB emphatically does not deal with shang

> han.

>

> My question is... if you live in a northern city are you seeing more SHL or

> WB cases?

> and what about in Miami? What about in a climate like Boulder, CO, where

> it's dry and hot in the summer

> and dry and cold in the Winter?

>

> K

>

> e <>

> > .

> >

>

> --

>

> ""

>

> www.tcmreview.com

>

March 29, 2010

Jason-

On Mar 29, 2010, at 8:02 AM, wrote:

> Steve et al,

>

> This is a interesting proposition, but I still do not understand

> why it

> " makes sense to talk about bitter chai hu as descending gallbladder

> qi? " It

> might be useful for you to submit such a case study that

> demonstrates that

> Chai Hu descends gallbladder qi. As is, I just don't get it.

>

I would be happy to provide one when I get a bit of time to do so.

Hopefully this week.

> It is my opinion, instead of trying to create a new function for

> the herb it

> may be useful to try to explain things from what we know from

> historical

> record and theory. There are many ways to explain why one might see a

> " descending " result from something like chai hu. For example,

> constraint of

> wood can inhibit the qi dynamic (e.g. ascending and descending

> functions) of

> the liver and gallbladder as well as the middle burner. Therefore

> merely

> resolving constraint can have an effect on the ascending and

> descending

> functions.

>

I fail to see how this is " creat[ing] a new function for the herb " as

all I am doing is trying to understand the herb as it is used in the

context of the SHL/JGYL (my current topic of study and practice).

The SNBCJ was main materia medica during the time of the SHL/JGYL and

chaihu is clearly a bitter herb in that text. Maybe you know when CH

became known as predominantly an acrid herb and why? If CH is

considered acrid, then I can absolutely see why lifting and liver

dispersing functions are ascribed to it. If it is considered bitter,

then it becomes problematic. There is no function in the Neijing or

other classical text describing bitter as a lifting and dispersing

medicinal, at least as far as I know.

> However possibly more important is what is said in The Yellow

> Emperor's

> Classic of Internal Medicine-The Simple Questions-Hung Di Nei Jing-

> Su Wen.

> It states, " When the clear yang is not upborne then the turbid yin

> cannot be

> downborne. " The Medical Chapters (Yi Pian) states, " If one desires

> upbear

> it, one must first downbear it and only afterward will it be

> upborne, if one

> desires to downbear it, one must first upbear it and only afterward

> will it

> be downborne. "

>

I cannot locate this in my copy of the Neijing. What chapter are you

referring to?

> This point is simple. If one has turbid yin in the head (and it

> needs to

> descend) then one does *not* employ descending medicinals.

> Contrarily, one

> employs ascending medicinals which then creates a descending action.

> Consequently, these medicinals that ascend are not considered

> descending

> medicinals because they have this secondary action. Li Gao sums

> this up,

>

> " Although down-bearing [methods] are indicated, one may

> simultaneously use

> up-bearing methods, Once the clear yang has been up-borne, the [qi]

> of a

> turbid nature must easily be down-borne. When upbearing, one may not

> simultaneously use down-bearing [methods in equal degrees] lest one

> assist

> in the force of its downward fall. In addition, [such a strategy]

> does not

> support the strength of the up-bearing medicinals. "

>

> Therefore jie geng ascends the clear yang and consequently assists and

> descending turbid yin. It is *not* that jie geng descends. The same

> can be

> said for others such as chaihu.

>

I am familiar with this theory and Li Dong-Yuan, thanks. If it is

your contention that chaihu descends because it lifts first (which is

what I think you are saying here), then CH has to have an acrid

flavor. This understanding of CH falls apart, however, if it is

considered a bitter herb, as bitter does not lift or ascend.

According to the Neijing Suwen Chapter 22 bitter has the following

actions: 1) it dries the spleen, 2) it purges the spleen, 3) it

drains the lung, and 4) it tonifies the kidney. If we consider that

CH is bitter according to the SNBCJ, how would you describe its

functionality?

> I still would like to see some historical evidence of people

> talking about

> chai hu descending otherwise I see no point in trying to make up

> new theory

> (at my level at least).

>

At least according to SNBCJ standards, Li Dong-Yuan and others were

the ones making up a new theory. I do not want to imply that this is

not a popular and intriguing theory, as many many who practice TCM

use it as if it were acrid, lifting, and dispersing. It is not my

intention to say that those that think that are wrong. I want to

know how it was used in the formulas I am studying. In those

formulas it is considered to be bitter. I have no idea how and when

it became acrid instead of bitter. I would love to know more about

who made this theory up and why. If you have anything that can clear

that up, I would love to hear about it.

Best

-Steve

March 29, 2010

Stephan x2,

a) When we started this conversation about chai hu it was John who

brought it up. From the e-mail, there was nothing that suggested we are only

talking about SHL. Quite simply he stated Chai Hu would be primarily a

descending herb not an ascending herb. Therefore I approached this

investigation by looking at a survey of historical record in understanding

of chai hu, all the way up to the present.

b) However, I did reference over 20 classical texts/Materia Medica's

discussing chai hu, and none of them mention anything about descending. If

there is one that I missed, please let me know. The reason I mentioned

Bensky and Jiao Shu-De is because most people have access to these English

texts, which really are just reporting what centuries of physicians have

already said. Talking about the Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing is not very useful

because there is no mention of ascending or descending function at this

period of time. Since they didn't, it is all just pure speculation. When

speculating, I would rather trust the thousands of commentators that came

before me who which have a much better understanding of the time period than

myself.

c) Consequently, I do not buy the fact that just because the Shen Nong

Ben Cao Jing attributes a bitter quality to chai hu that it must descend.

You can create any story you like if it fits your needs, however the fact

remains that centuries of doctors consider it ascending (and they still call

it bitter today! As well centuries ago). There are hundreds of commentaries

on the Shang Han Lun, if conceptualizing chai hu in this manner was a useful

idea then someone should be able to find a mention of this. Otherwise, I see

no point in going against the grain on this one. If we cannot find any major

thread of thought/reference in historical record that really there is no

debate in my opinion. If we find something, then we can look at exactly what

they are talking about and maybe it will give us a further insight into this

medicinal.

d) For the record, drain (xie) often refers to merely eliminating heat

(or other pathogens). There is no indication, that I know of, that herbs

that drain must descend. Furthermore, to answer Stephan herbs that are

bitter are said to drain you (among other things). This quite simply means

in many cases clearing heat and has nothing do with descending nature. Also

herbs that enter the heart were attributed to bitter. Again, nothing to do

with downbearing. As shown, many herbs are bitter and have an ascending

nature and some no ascending or descending nature. Sometimes in classical

times this is purely is in reference to taste.

That is it for me. Enjoy.

-Jason

On Behalf Of Stephen Bonzak

Monday, March 29, 2010 6:13 PM