Guest guest Report post Posted March 1, 2010 Group, As stated previously I think many read into Chinese medicine terms (such as shen and ming) superimposing our beliefs onto the passage instead of letting the passage tell us what it really means. Of course different interpretations are what make the world go around. However, I would like to refernce and quote from a great article, An axis of efficacy by Chace and Bensky. It presents commentary and interpretations from some famous Nei Jing lines discussing things such as ¡°spirit.¡± One line for example is, ¡°The crude attend to the form, the superior attend to the spirit.¡± Many in the west love to take this passage and point out the spiritual implications. However historically this is probably not accurate. For example, ¡°Most commentators and the descendant texts within the Nei Jing itself interpret spirit in terms of the qi and blood or the correct qi. Ling Shu 3.1 states ¡°That the superior attend to the spirit means that they attend to the patient¡¯s surplus or insufficiency of qi and blood, and this enables them to tonify or drain. It goes on to explain that, at least in this context, ¡®the spirit is correct qi¡¯¡ Lish shu-18 links the spirit to the blood. ¡®The blood is the spirit qi.¡¯ Etc. etc. So this is only one point of view, but it represents a major consensus. This is the advantage of actually reading commentaries instead of just assuming that there must be something spiritual (spirit with a big ¡°S¡±) because a word that we relate to spiritual (shen / spirit) is used. The rest of the article is well worth reading. It talks about spirit as paying attention to small details, the focus of one¡¯s mind, as a knack or capacity for efficacy etc. etc. It really demystifies much of this capital ¡°S¡± spirit stuff through academic rigor (actually reading Chinese commentaries) instead of just reading it the way we want to read it. Hope this is helpful, - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 1, 2010 2010/3/1 > > > For example, “Most commentators and the descendant texts within the Nei > Jing itself interpret spirit in terms of the qi and blood or the correct qi. > Ling Shu 3.1 states “That the superior attend to the spirit means that they > attend to the patient’s surplus or insufficiency of qi and blood, and this > enables them to tonify or drain. It goes on to explain that, at least in > this context, ‘the spirit is correct qi’… Lish shu-18 links the spirit to > the blood. ‘The blood is the spirit qi.’ Etc. etc. > This is closer to my understanding of shen too, that it is the outcome of healthy and harmonized qi and blood. In tongue diagnosis we talk about the shen of the tongue. This of course has nothing to do with the tongue's immortal soul or consciousness, but a sense of aliveness. Tongue diagnosis provides a transferable skill too, if you need to buy fish. Old fish lacks shen. It is flat and flaccid in shape. Its color lacks vibrancy, and its sheen has no twinkle. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. http://twitter.com/algancao Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 1, 2010 Perhaps it would be good to think of " shen " as " presence " - leading towards a more ideal of balance. " Ming " is the life one has/leads. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Al Stone <al wrote: > 2010/3/1 > > > > > > > For example, “Most commentators and the descendant texts within the Nei > > Jing itself interpret spirit in terms of the qi and blood or the correct > qi. > > Ling Shu 3.1 states “That the superior attend to the spirit means that > they > > attend to the patient’s surplus or insufficiency of qi and blood, and > this > > enables them to tonify or drain. It goes on to explain that, at least in > > this context, ‘the spirit is correct qi’… Lish shu-18 links the spirit to > > the blood. ‘The blood is the spirit qi.’ Etc. etc. > > > This is closer to my understanding of shen too, that it is the outcome of > healthy and harmonized qi and blood. > > In tongue diagnosis we talk about the shen of the tongue. This of course > has > nothing to do with the tongue's immortal soul or consciousness, but a sense > of aliveness. > > Tongue diagnosis provides a transferable skill too, if you need to buy > fish. > Old fish lacks shen. It is flat and flaccid in shape. Its color lacks > vibrancy, and its sheen has no twinkle. > > -- > , DAOM > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > http://twitter.com/algancao > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 1, 2010 So this is only one point of view, but it represents a major consensus. Lonny: Sure, the majority view has always been materialistic and focused on the surface of things. Even Bao Pu Zi recognized this @200CE in the introduction to his Nei Bian. Nonetheless, that doesn't stop those interested in the deeper meaning of things from pressing on into the subtlties. J: (from previous post) Maybe I am missing something here, but here's my take... Lonny: I'd say missing rather a lot. I'm composing a response and will post it by week end. Regards, Lonny Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 2, 2010 " Ming " is the life one has/leads. Lonny: Which, of course determines one's destiny. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 2, 2010 > > > > In tongue diagnosis we talk about the shen of the tongue. This of course has > nothing to do with the tongue's immortal soul or consciousness, but a sense > of aliveness. Lonny " Actually, it is recognized that there is only One light and when you look at the shen of the tongue or the eyes you are diagnosing the degree to which the vehicle, the body, is transparent to transmit this one light. You are literally diagnosing the degree to which consciousness is embodied. Realization of this one light changes one's definition of what a " sense of aliveness " is. Excellent point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 2, 2010 Please provide a Chinese reference for this idea, if you are in fact referring to Chinese medicine here. I personally have never read anything about " only one light. (or) consciousness is embodied " in Chinese. What are the characters for this? But I agree we are talking about an " sense of aliveness " but this is not anything overly profound my opinion. -Jason On Behalf Of Lonny Tuesday, March 02, 2010 5:44 AM Re: (Shen = " S " pirit > > > > In tongue diagnosis we talk about the shen of the tongue. This of course has > nothing to do with the tongue's immortal soul or consciousness, but a sense > of aliveness. Lonny " Actually, it is recognized that there is only One light and when you look at the shen of the tongue or the eyes you are diagnosing the degree to which the vehicle, the body, is transparent to transmit this one light. You are literally diagnosing the degree to which consciousness is embodied. Realization of this one light changes one's definition of what a " sense of aliveness " is. Excellent point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 2, 2010 Jason: " But I agree we are talking about an " sense of aliveness " but this is not anything overly profound my opinion. " Lonny: Uhuh. How could one's " sense of aliveness " possibly be profound? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 2, 2010 Yes, but I think many think of " destiny " as preordained, when it is not. On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 4:32 AM, Lonny <revolution wrote: > " Ming " is the life one has/leads. > > Lonny: Which, of course determines one's destiny. > > > > --- > > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a > practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum. > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted March 2, 2010 Yes, but I think many think of " destiny " as preordained, when it is not. Lonny: Yes, you are correct. I make a distinction between the English words destiny and fate. The greater destiny, forged through conscious choice is not determined and is ming as discussed extensively by Kongfuzi, Mengzi, and many others. I ascribe the lower, superstitious, notion of preordained fate to the character " shu " meaning literally " numbers " and having to do with fortune telling, etc.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
