Acupuncture for Radicular Pain

[Guest guest]

Hi Everybody, it seems that the general public believes acupuncture to be an

excellant remedy for acute (or chronic) sciatica. Patients are always telling me

about thier friend who had shooting pain down the leg was cured with just a

needle or two. Is this an urban legend?

I know about Tung's Pts 33.08 and 33.09, the combo called Hand Five Gold and I

know people do Trigger/Motor Pts for Gluts and Piriformis but I have never seen

be that effective. So I do other stuff. (ie McKenzie Technique.)

So I did a search on this site. Al Stone mentions using e-stim to the

appropriate nerve root as an effective treatment. That sounded intresting, does

anyone know the details of this technique? or of any other good techniques?

I know a lot of Doctoral Programs have classes in " Neurology and TCM " and I

wonder if sciatica is addressed in these classes?

Thank you for any input or ideas you have,,Matt Haug Lac

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt,

 

Before I saw my name come up, I was going to chime in.

 

It is no urban legend to use acupuncture for sciatica pain. Of course, this

particular list mailing list favors herbal medicines, so I'll be brief.

 

My own sciatica pain was a recurrent problem that would last around 2 weeks

whenever it flared up. It happened once while I was studying Kung Fu. My

teacher pressed on some points along the trajectory of the pain (mostly the

UB channel in my case) and the next day, the problem was 90% gone (not a

slow improvement as was usually the case). After two days, it was 100% gone.

 

 

I tried this technique out on my dad at one point and he had a similar

response. That's when I decided to look into acupuncture schools.

 

When I was in Kunming, China, there was an entire hospital department

devoted to the treatment of sciatica. Of course, these were farmers who'd be

carried into the hospital on the backs of their family members. These guys

had it bad, and it was actually an in-patient facility, just for sciatica.

 

Using e-stim rightly presumes one can over-accommodate the nerve so as to

numb it basically. Bodywork, stretching the piraformis muscle, heat therapy

and acupuncture are all good.

 

In some cases, you can look into herbal medicines too, whether they're for

relaxing muscles in spasm such as shao yao gan cao tang, or treating pain

that is aggravated by cold/damp weather (du huo ji sheng tang) or supporting

the Kidneys when the pain originates in the lower back (yin or yang tonic

formulas), it's all beneficial.

 

Best of luck to you on this.

 

On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 1:23 PM, matthaug2002 <matthaug2002wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi Everybody, it seems that the general public believes acupuncture to be

> an excellant remedy for acute (or chronic) sciatica. Patients are always

> telling me about thier friend who had shooting pain down the leg was cured

> with just a needle or two. Is this an urban legend?

> I know about Tung's Pts 33.08 and 33.09, the combo called Hand Five Gold

> and I know people do Trigger/Motor Pts for Gluts and Piriformis but I have

> never seen be that effective. So I do other stuff. (ie McKenzie Technique.)

> So I did a search on this site. Al Stone mentions using e-stim to the

> appropriate nerve root as an effective treatment. That sounded intresting,

> does anyone know the details of this technique? or of any other good

> techniques?

> I know a lot of Doctoral Programs have classes in " Neurology and TCM " and I

> wonder if sciatica is addressed in these classes?

> Thank you for any input or ideas you have,,Matt Haug Lac

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree - sciatica can be cured using needles only. In fact, I tend to call it

" easy to treat " . Have even made my own sciatica pain go away finally by using

needles after trying the other remedies (anti-iflammatories, PT, etc.) I was

practically giddy about how well - and how quickly - needling the butt ( & the Gb

channel in my case) erased the pain.

 

Martha

Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac.

303-947-6224

..... become a healer, not just a technician

 

On Jan 26, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Al Stone wrote:

 

> Hi Matt,

>

> Before I saw my name come up, I was going to chime in.

>

> It is no urban legend to use acupuncture for sciatica pain. Of course, this

> particular list mailing list favors herbal medicines, so I'll be brief.

>

> My own sciatica pain was a recurrent problem that would last around 2 weeks

> whenever it flared up. It happened once while I was studying Kung Fu. My

> teacher pressed on some points along the trajectory of the pain (mostly the

> UB channel in my case) and the next day, the problem was 90% gone (not a

> slow improvement as was usually the case). After two days, it was 100% gone.

>

>

> I tried this technique out on my dad at one point and he had a similar

> response. That's when I decided to look into acupuncture schools.

>

> When I was in Kunming, China, there was an entire hospital department

> devoted to the treatment of sciatica. Of course, these were farmers who'd be

> carried into the hospital on the backs of their family members. These guys

> had it bad, and it was actually an in-patient facility, just for sciatica.

>

> Using e-stim rightly presumes one can over-accommodate the nerve so as to

> numb it basically. Bodywork, stretching the piraformis muscle, heat therapy

> and acupuncture are all good.

>

> In some cases, you can look into herbal medicines too, whether they're for

> relaxing muscles in spasm such as shao yao gan cao tang, or treating pain

> that is aggravated by cold/damp weather (du huo ji sheng tang) or supporting

> the Kidneys when the pain originates in the lower back (yin or yang tonic

> formulas), it's all beneficial.

>

> Best of luck to you on this.

>

>>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I just received one treatment for sciatica from a practitioner using sinew

meridian treatments he learned from Jeffrey Yuen. Ideally 3 tx are done 3

days in a row, but I haven't been able to get the 2nd and 3rd tx yet. But

with one tx my leg is about - yes, I would say 30% better. Practitioners

who have studied with Jeffrey are mainly on the east and west coasts, as far

as I know. I am studying with him here in NYC, but haven't learned that

part of his acupuncture course yet, and his advanced acupuncture course here

is full to the brim (80 people.)

 

I've had other tx for this same leg - usually low BL pts, and GB30, and

cupping, and that can also relieve the pain for a day or so, but then it

returns. The practitioner (Jeffrey trained) who I saw recently said the

underlying problem (for me) is wind-damp in the BL and KI sinew channels,

with underlying Blood stagnation in the channels. He used needle moxa and

direct moxa (ouch) on BL and KI pts and also some SI pts. in the first tx.

 

Hope this is helpful. And my apologies if I'm violating the group focus by

responding to a question on Acu on what is primarily an herbal group forum.

 

RS, L. Ac, NYC

 

On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 4:23 PM, matthaug2002 <matthaug2002wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi Everybody, it seems that the general public believes acupuncture to be

> an excellant remedy for acute (or chronic) sciatica. Patients are always

> telling me about thier friend who had shooting pain down the leg was cured

> with just a needle or two. Is this an urban legend?

> I know about Tung's Pts 33.08 and 33.09, the combo called Hand Five Gold

> and I know people do Trigger/Motor Pts for Gluts and Piriformis but I have

> never seen be that effective. So I do other stuff. (ie McKenzie Technique.)

> So I did a search on this site. Al Stone mentions using e-stim to the

> appropriate nerve root as an effective treatment. That sounded intresting,

> does anyone know the details of this technique? or of any other good

> techniques?

> I know a lot of Doctoral Programs have classes in " Neurology and TCM " and I

> wonder if sciatica is addressed in these classes?

> Thank you for any input or ideas you have,,Matt Haug Lac

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree with Martha. Every patient I've seen for sciatica has remarked on

considerable long lasting results. I usually do tuina and/or shiatsu on the

bladder or Gb channel with needling most often GB 30 and others on GB or BL

meridians. And I always tell my patients to keep a tennis ball with them to sit

on for self massage any time needed.

I wish all patients would respond to all conditions like this one.

Susan

 

 

-

Dr. Martha Lucas

Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:42 AM

Re: Acupuncture for Radicular Pain

 

 

 

 

I agree - sciatica can be cured using needles only. In fact, I tend to call it

" easy to treat " . Have even made my own sciatica pain go away finally by using

needles after trying the other remedies (anti-iflammatories, PT, etc.) I was

practically giddy about how well - and how quickly - needling the butt ( & the Gb

channel in my case) erased the pain.

 

Martha

Martha Lucas, Ph.D., L.Ac.

303-947-6224

.... become a healer, not just a technician

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Matt,

 

I get really excellent results treating pain, including sciatica, with either

Master Tung or Richard Tan points. Patients get up from the table and are either

pain-free or greatly improved in most cases, depending on the severity of

injury. The pain does return, and the trick is to repeat the treatment before it

returns full-force. Therefore I will see a patient between 3 and 5 times a week

for a couple of weeks, then back off of the frequency until the pain is gone. I

also use Evergreen products for treatment of pain, I find they give that 'oomph'

that is needed to heal from an injury.

 

I also always do pattern differentiation whatever I am treating to address

the root of the problem (hopefully). If I don't I hear Z'ev's voice in my head,

gently asking 'What is the pattern?' Thanks, Z'ev.

 

Beata

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Kiiko Matsumoto has some great protocols for sciatica. In her new book (Vol. 2

of Clinical Strategies) outlines some of them.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

 

 

RoseAnne Spradlin <roseanne.spradlin

Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:21:01

 

Re: Acupuncture for Radicular Pain

 

I just received one treatment for sciatica from a practitioner using sinew

meridian treatments he learned from Jeffrey Yuen. Ideally 3 tx are done 3

days in a row, but I haven't been able to get the 2nd and 3rd tx yet. But

with one tx my leg is about - yes, I would say 30% better. Practitioners

who have studied with Jeffrey are mainly on the east and west coasts, as far

as I know. I am studying with him here in NYC, but haven't learned that

part of his acupuncture course yet, and his advanced acupuncture course here

is full to the brim (80 people.)

 

I've had other tx for this same leg - usually low BL pts, and GB30, and

cupping, and that can also relieve the pain for a day or so, but then it

returns. The practitioner (Jeffrey trained) who I saw recently said the

underlying problem (for me) is wind-damp in the BL and KI sinew channels,

with underlying Blood stagnation in the channels. He used needle moxa and

direct moxa (ouch) on BL and KI pts and also some SI pts. in the first tx.

 

Hope this is helpful. And my apologies if I'm violating the group focus by

responding to a question on Acu on what is primarily an herbal group forum.

 

RS, L. Ac, NYC

 

On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 4:23 PM, matthaug2002 <matthaug2002wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi Everybody, it seems that the general public believes acupuncture to be

> an excellant remedy for acute (or chronic) sciatica. Patients are always

> telling me about thier friend who had shooting pain down the leg was cured

> with just a needle or two. Is this an urban legend?

> I know about Tung's Pts 33.08 and 33.09, the combo called Hand Five Gold

> and I know people do Trigger/Motor Pts for Gluts and Piriformis but I have

> never seen be that effective. So I do other stuff. (ie McKenzie Technique.)

> So I did a search on this site. Al Stone mentions using e-stim to the

> appropriate nerve root as an effective treatment. That sounded intresting,

> does anyone know the details of this technique? or of any other good

> techniques?

> I know a lot of Doctoral Programs have classes in " Neurology and TCM " and I

> wonder if sciatica is addressed in these classes?

> Thank you for any input or ideas you have,,Matt Haug Lac

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I frequently get very quick results with GB30, GB31, UB 40, and UB60, along with

local ah shi points near GB30. Use 3 - 4 inch needles at GB30.

 

- Bill Schoenbart

 

 

 

, " matthaug2002 " <matthaug2002

wrote:

>

> Hi Everybody, it seems that the general public believes acupuncture to be an

excellant remedy for acute (or chronic) sciatica. Patients are always telling me

about thier friend who had shooting pain down the leg was cured with just a

needle or two. Is this an urban legend?

> I know about Tung's Pts 33.08 and 33.09, the combo called Hand Five Gold and

I know people do Trigger/Motor Pts for Gluts and Piriformis but I have never

seen be that effective. So I do other stuff. (ie McKenzie Technique.)

> So I did a search on this site. Al Stone mentions using e-stim to the

appropriate nerve root as an effective treatment. That sounded intresting, does

anyone know the details of this technique? or of any other good techniques?

> I know a lot of Doctoral Programs have classes in " Neurology and TCM " and I

wonder if sciatica is addressed in these classes?

> Thank you for any input or ideas you have,,Matt Haug Lac

>

[Guest guest]

This is pretty much the exact treatment I would use with sometimes even longer

needles and strong electrostim if the muscles are noticeably in spasm. I also

palpate use pattern diagnosis and treat accordingly. I often find that adding

GB29, UB36 with electrostim and distal GB points are quite useful as well.

Misha

 

, " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2

wrote:

>

> I frequently get very quick results with GB30, GB31, UB 40, and UB60, along

with local ah shi points near GB30. Use 3 - 4 inch needles at GB30.

>

> - Bill Schoenbart

>

>

>

> , " matthaug2002 " <matthaug2002@>

wrote:

> >

> > Hi Everybody, it seems that the general public believes acupuncture to be an

excellant remedy for acute (or chronic) sciatica. Patients are always telling me

about thier friend who had shooting pain down the leg was cured with just a

needle or two. Is this an urban legend?

> > I know about Tung's Pts 33.08 and 33.09, the combo called Hand Five Gold

and I know people do Trigger/Motor Pts for Gluts and Piriformis but I have never

seen be that effective. So I do other stuff. (ie McKenzie Technique.)

> > So I did a search on this site. Al Stone mentions using e-stim to the

appropriate nerve root as an effective treatment. That sounded intresting, does

anyone know the details of this technique? or of any other good techniques?

> > I know a lot of Doctoral Programs have classes in " Neurology and TCM " and

I wonder if sciatica is addressed in these classes?

> > Thank you for any input or ideas you have,,Matt Haug Lac

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Alon, yeah, I agree with you. I WAS specifically referring to acupuncture

for radicular pain. So I am assuming the practioner did a physical exam and

history and determined this was the diagnosis.

the term sciatica is kind a non specific term that refers to any pain that

radiates down the leg. I probably should have avoided this term.

 

In a way this answears my question because I think there is a lot of confusion

about distinguishing radicular from non-radicular pain. This confusion spills

over into what the clients have heard and what they believe to be the cause of

their pain.

I think it is intresting that we are often asked to treat neurolgical

conditions, when the TCM schools dont really address this. I am intrested in

treating these complex pain patients.

There was someone on the ACTCM Alumni site who wrote in to say: " I am

treating someone with RSD. they have elbow pain. I tried needling Lung 5, but it

didnt work, what do I do? " , that kind of sums up some of the confusion around

treating these pain states.

 

Thanks to everyone for thier input and ideas,,Matt Haug

[Guest guest]

You are welcome.

 

 

On Jan 27, 2010, at 12:53 PM, coastacu wrote:

 

>

> Hi Matt,

>

> I get really excellent results treating pain, including sciatica, with either

Master Tung or Richard Tan points. Patients get up from the table and are either

pain-free or greatly improved in most cases, depending on the severity of

injury. The pain does return, and the trick is to repeat the treatment before it

returns full-force. Therefore I will see a patient between 3 and 5 times a week

for a couple of weeks, then back off of the frequency until the pain is gone. I

also use Evergreen products for treatment of pain, I find they give that 'oomph'

that is needed to heal from an injury.

>

> I also always do pattern differentiation whatever I am treating to address the

root of the problem (hopefully). If I don't I hear Z'ev's voice in my head,

gently asking 'What is the pattern?' Thanks, Z'ev.

>

> Beata

>

>

[Guest guest]

While a few people mentioned specific points and protocols, and the anatomical

information was valuable, I was surprised to see that no one mentioned pulses,

channel diagnostics, or etiology (wind/cold/damp, taxation, blood stasis, etc.)

that are essential when practicing Chinese medicine. . .

 

So, ideally, as well as the biomedical differentiation, there should be an

accurate Chinese medical diagnosis as well.

 

 

On Jan 28, 2010, at 2:11 PM, matthaug2002 wrote:

 

> Thanks Alon, yeah, I agree with you. I WAS specifically referring to

acupuncture for radicular pain. So I am assuming the practioner did a physical

exam and history and determined this was the diagnosis.

> the term sciatica is kind a non specific term that refers to any pain that

radiates down the leg. I probably should have avoided this term.

>

> In a way this answears my question because I think there is a lot of confusion

about distinguishing radicular from non-radicular pain. This confusion spills

over into what the clients have heard and what they believe to be the cause of

their pain.

> I think it is intresting that we are often asked to treat neurolgical

conditions, when the TCM schools dont really address this. I am intrested in

treating these complex pain patients.

> There was someone on the ACTCM Alumni site who wrote in to say: " I am

treating someone with RSD. they have elbow pain. I tried needling Lung 5, but it

didnt work, what do I do? " , that kind of sums up some of the confusion around

treating these pain states.

>

> Thanks to everyone for thier input and ideas,,Matt Haug

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I always do the " extra " points after a comprehensive pulse dx and energy

balancing points. That's the best time, in my practice, to move on to

" empirical " points. Theoretically the exacting balance of the energy beginning

w/ pulse dx " could " remove the pain ... but no sense ignoring local points.

 

Martha

 

On Jan 28, 2010, at 6:59 PM, wrote:

 

> While a few people mentioned specific points and protocols, and the anatomical

information was valuable, I was surprised to see that no one mentioned pulses,

channel diagnostics, or etiology (wind/cold/damp, taxation, blood stasis, etc.)

that are essential when practicing Chinese medicine. . .

>

> So, ideally, as well as the biomedical differentiation, there should be an

accurate Chinese medical diagnosis as well.

>

>

> On Jan 28, 2010, at 2:11 PM, matthaug2002 wrote:

>

>> Thanks Alon, yeah, I agree with you. I WAS specifically referring to

acupuncture for radicular pain. So I am assuming the practioner did a physical

exam and history and determined this was the diagnosis.

>> the term sciatica is kind a non specific term that refers to any pain that

radiates down the leg. I probably should have avoided this term.

>>

>> In a way this answears my question because I think there is a lot of

confusion about distinguishing radicular from non-radicular pain. This confusion

spills over into what the clients have heard and what they believe to be the

cause of their pain.

>> I think it is intresting that we are often asked to treat neurolgical

conditions, when the TCM schools dont really address this. I am intrested in

treating these complex pain patients.

>> There was someone on the ACTCM Alumni site who wrote in to say: " I am

treating someone with RSD. they have elbow pain. I tried needling Lung 5, but it

didnt work, what do I do? " , that kind of sums up some of the confusion around

treating these pain states.

>>

>> Thanks to everyone for thier input and ideas,,Matt Haug

>>

>>

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122