Esoteric Herbology Book?

[Guest guest]

Hi Thea,

 

I usually do not post to these groups .... just read and try to learn.

For what is is worth have read and found your original post some what of

an game changer... as you pointed out. In no way did find anything about

making things up... in fact you said " There is clearly a rigor to this,

but it is not the Euclidean rigor of Western mind. " Clearly this is not

making things up. You go on stating " Chinese is, as we

know, much more about associative thought which has its own rigor but it

is more of a fractal rigor, based on recognition of self-similar

forms (or energetics). " This say nothing about making thing up, on the

contrary you are making a case for " rigor " . This in my mind is the an

opposite of made up.

 

Warm Regards

 

David Sontag

 

Thea Elijah wrote:

>

>

> On Dec 23, 2009, at 1:58 AM, Al Stone wrote:

>

> > I would be interested in Heiner Fruehauf's take on this.

>

> I encourage you to seek it out. It was a long conversation with

> Heiner, sitting around his dining room table drinking tea a couple of

> weeks ago, that preceded my decision to post these views.

>

> It is distressing to me, however, that people reading my post seem to

> think that I am advocating making things up. I have re-read my post;

> this is not what I am saying! I am saying that to understand Chinese

> texts, we must read them as they were intended to be read. And OF

> COURSE " there is a big difference between fundamentalism and actually

> trying to learn from past physicians e.g. understanding how THEY

> thought and hence the treatments they used for " their view " on

> disease. " I am slightly astounded that I have been read as though I

> am saying otherwise. Perhaps because there is an impression of having

> beaten a dead horse, people are simply responding to what they believe

> I am saying, based on what others have said here in the past?

>

> respectfully,

>

> Thea Elijah

>

>

[Guest guest]

Trevor,

 

 

 

For some reason I do not have this History of Pharmaceutics book, sounds

like something to get. Thanks for mentioning it.

 

 

 

1) I do not at all disagree that Chinese medicine is filled with

innovating, creating, and synthesizing of ideas and theories. There is also

no question that there is disagreement among experts throughout the years.

This should be self-evident. But what is not common, in modern times, is

someone coming up with " valid " new understandings of classical texts.

Clinical innovation is drastically different than innovating classical text

understanding.

 

2) I also agree that in many instances theory came after clinical

observation. I also agree that modern clinical experience in relation to

essential oils (or anything else) can and should be considered. I have no

beef with integration.

 

However, I commonly see people validating treatment results without any

critical thinking skills. For example one may be doing acupuncture,

essential oils, supplements, and Chinese herbs, get a result, and think it

was essential oil. With acupuncture as strong as it is on its own, how do

people really know what is happening when one applies some oil to

acupuncture points and also needles?

 

Furthermore, I also have a concern when people integrate new theories with a

poor fundamental understanding of Chinese medicine and little to no access

to Chinese sources. In the West this is very common. There is no doubt that

the many, now famous Chinese physicians of the past, created the many

theories and treatment ideas that we use, did of course " make something up. "

That is not the issue. The fundamental difference is that they had a very

strong understanding of Chinese medicine's past theory's and made stuff up

within a certain construct. I'm sure many will disagree about the importance

of this foundational step and I humbly agree to disagree. However, anyone

who has spent time observing the many fly-by-night treatment methods

supposedly based on Chinese medicine " classics " or theory over the years

knows how many of them are just filled with hot air. People in the West, for

some odd reason, have no problem just making up whatever they like, quoting

a classic text, add some new age flavor, slap a name on it, and sell it to

the world. Of course anyone who questions such a approach is a

fundamentalist. As has been discussed over and over, such willy-nilly

approaches usually just make our profession look bad.

 

 

 

Finally I agree completely with Trevor's last statement that clinical

results trump everything. Classical idea or modern idea should make no

difference. Classical texts really for me are not some word of God, but more

a source for ideas of practice as well as a deeper understanding of how

physicians thought about physiology and disease. Such texts, and case

studies of famous physicians, often lead me to better clinical results.

Understanding their thinking through their words is essential to this

process - hence my concern with making up interpretations. However, such

information is only useful when it actually works in the clinic. I am

fundamentally a clinician and that is really the only thing that I care

about. Now, if I could come up with such ideas all my own then I would not

have to search through Chinese medicine's history. I am unfortunately do not

have this ability and I assume it is my own inadequacies in spontaneously

creating such innovative ideas that leads me to question, with healthy

skepticism, others who just " naturally " do this and then proclaim amazing

results.

 

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.ChineseMedicinedoc.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of trevor_erikson

Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:27 PM

 

Re: Esoteric Herbology Book?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason,

 

You wrote, " ... I do find it interesting that I have never seen

anything in Chinese that suggests that we should just be making stuff up. If

this is the way classics were to be read, I think we should be able to find

some evidence in the immense number of resources that exist commentating on

the classics that have been written in Chinese over the last 1800+ years. "

 

From reading Paul Unshulds, History of pharmaceutics, which follows 4 main

currents of the Shen Nong Ben cao, it seems that some pretty major

theorizing happened throughout the last 1500 years. In the original Ben Cao,

herbal usages were written about, but the action was not, or only very

briefly discussed. For example Chuan Xiong was said to be good for headache,

but it did not explain why it was good or how it worked.

 

Starting around 1000 AD is when physician scholars tried to explain the why,

which lead to many debates as, in a sense, they were " making it up " . They

were basically combining the theories of systemic correspondence (ie five

element), a confucian philosophy presented in the early acu classics, with

the Taoist knowledge of plant usage. It seems that the theories of how herbs

worked was constantly modified right up to our present era. Scholars have

agreed and disagreed on the how and why for a very long time.

 

Throughout history, new herbs were constantly added to the Ben Cao from

local folk sources within China and from foreign lands outside. Each time a

new one was added, theories about how it worked had to be developed. I am

sure that there was a lot of theorizing and debating that took place over

this. Again, it seems that in Paul's investigations, many authors of " source

texts " did not agree.

 

I am not at all sure about how effective the use of aromatic oils placed on

Acu points are, or what, if any, references exist for this usage. This is

obviously different than having a debate over why Chuan Xiong can relieve a

headache, as the result is clear and the method of administration is the

same, only the theory of why may differ. In the case of oils, if no

references exist, then the whole concept is brand new and will need much

investigation to verify it's place in our medicine- as both the proof that

it works and the theory of why it works will have to be agreed upon.

 

Of course being able to back ones ideas up with classical sources is good,

but in reality it is how the herb preforms in clinic that is the most

important. As Fei Bo Xiong, 17 century I believe, said:

 

" Skillful action is of necessity based on customary rules

Reality, however, is rarely so well behaved "

 

Trevor

 

 

<%40> , " "

wrote:

>

> Interesting post. However, I do find it interesting that I have never seen

> anything in Chinese that suggests that we should just be making stuff up.

If

> this is the way classics were to be read, I think we should be able to

find

> some evidence in the immense number of resources that exist commentating

on

> the classics that have been written in Chinese over the last 1800+ years.

Of

> course, I am always open to someone presenting some sources that support

> such a stance, but without this, such liberties, IMO, are only a nice

story.

>

>

>

>

> Finally, there is a big difference between fundamentalism and actually

> trying to learn from past physicians e.g. understanding how THEY thought

and

> hence the treatments they used for " their view " on disease. Making up

> interpretations based on owns current world view, misunderstandings of

> Chinese terms, and predilections towards things e.g. more esoteric, may

> satisfy one's creative (and spiritual) stance, however, it is a clearly a

> slippery slope when unraveling the depths of Chinese medicine.

>

>

>

> As we have seen to of had this discussion a few times in the past, I do

not

> think I need to beat a dead horse.

>

>

>

> My two cents...

>

>

>

> -Jason

Acupuncture

>

>

>

>

>

>

> www.ChineseMedicinedoc.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

<%40>

> [

<%40> ] On Behalf Of Thea Elijah

>

>

>

>

> Oh.

>

> From this example, and the many more that followed over the years,

> Elisabeth made it clear that the descriptions in classical texts were

> meant to be read as signifiers, rather than parameters. Elisabeth

> explained-- and Jeffrey Yuen also states this frequently in his

> lectures-- that the physical symptoms listed are not to be taken as

> physical symptoms only, but energetic descriptions somewhat akin to

> personals ads (where we are meant to read between the lines and

> understand what is implied by " long walks after midnight " or some such

> phrase).

>

> There is clearly a rigor to this, but it is not the Euclidean rigor of

> Western mind. It is a fractal method of signification such as the

> Chinese explicitly utilize in the correspondences. In English, we

> primarily use words to encapsulate meaning, like a walnut shell around

> a walnut (this is what I mean by Euclidean style). Chinese is, as we

> know, much more about associative thought which has its own rigor but

> it is more of a fractal rigor, based on recognition of self-similar

> forms (or energetics). I can speak at greater length about Euclidean-

> style definitions and meanings (such we use in as the English

> language) and how this differs from fractal-style methods of

> signification (as comes more naturally in Chinese) if anyone wishes.

>

> The main point is, one is rarely ever going to be able to point to

> classical source texts in order to find direct citations of the more

> " esoteric " uses of the herbs-- if by this we are meaning the more

> psycho-spiritual indications. These are all inherent directly within

> the physical descriptions; it is a matter of understanding how to read

> them.

>

> Elisabeth Rochat de la Vallee, Ted Kaptchuk, Jeffrey Yuen and Heiner

> Fruehauf all speak to this, and teach from the rigor of this

> methodology. I was discussing this with Heiner Fruehauf a couple of

> weeks ago. We were talking about the perils of fundamentalism creeping

> into Western understanding of Chinese medicine because of exactly this

> common misunderstanding. I spoke (fractally!) about a friend of mine

> who is a highly intelligent and meticulously scholarly fundamentalist

> Christian, for whom if Jesus didn't say it, in so many words, then it

> ain't Christianity. The fact that Jesus spoke in parables and

> allegories, and that one CANNOT understand his words without

> understanding them as signifiers rather than definitive parameters,

> cut no more ice with him than it does with some interpreters of

> Chinese medical descriptors in classical texts.

>

> Learning to interpret Chinese text as fractal signifiers requires a

> great deal of rigor so that we can truly expand the fractal (as it was

> meant to be expanded) without " making things up, " although we will

> most certainly-- and intentionally-- be speaking things that may never

> have been spoken before (as in the case of Jeffrey Yuen).

>

> Thea Elijah

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well said Jason.

 

Unshuld's pharmaceutic's book is a heavy, but good read. He basically comments

on all of the known versions of the Ben Cao, within the 4 main currents, spread

out over a 2000+ year period. It is full of traditional quotes and translations

and commentary. A huge piece of work!

 

To agree with the points you raised:

I tend to be very skeptical towards any theory, or practitioners claim to fame,

unless there is some solid evidence of clinical efficacy. I do not know enough

about the application of essential oils to acu points to comment too much,

although I do find it very hard to believe that they could impact the body deep

enough to heal chronic health complaints, like chronic colitis or psoriasis.

 

It is one thing to place an oil directly on an area that is diseased, so that

the medicinal component of that oil can do its job, versus putting a small drop

of an oil on say the large intestine source point so that ones colitis improves.

This would have to be greatly backed up with clinical evidence for me to even

consider trying it in real life.

 

And, as jason points out, I would be more inclined to believe that the

acupuncture or internal herbal remedy, which may be simultaneously prescribed,

is the real remedy.

 

Another quote I like, that a teacher shared with me, is by Jonathan Swift,

 

" All poets and philosophers who find

Some favourite system to their mind

In every way to make it fit

Will force all Nature to submit. "

 

I remember a story in Unshuld's book about a famous physician in China (name

alludes me right now) who became recognized by the higher up officials because

of his ability to differentiate true gold from false gold. This is the type of

skill that is necessary for Chinese medicine to survive in the world. Without

this discernment, really effective treatments will disappear along the wayside

to " glittery " theories developed by charismatic philosophers.

 

We definitely need standards, whereby we separate:

1) Theory or idea that is clinically unproven.

2) Theory or idea that has proven to be clinically effective- ie. Theory matches

reality!

 

Trevor

[Guest guest]

Ben

there are many books on flower remedies. I suggest first reading on Dr.Bach

himself and how he started essences. The modality is in use for 80 years. It

must be some merit to it I don't know of any research done. It treats

primarily spirit and it's very empirical. You have to try them to understand

them. I'm by no means an expert, but I use Bach flower remedies on myself and my

family. I found them very supportive.

There is a book on topical use of remedies on acu points called " Floral

Acupuncture " . I didn't try this type of application, but why not?

How remedies work? They say vibrationally. Is there scientific explanation? No.

But is there a scientific explanation on how acupuncture works?

 

Aromatherapy is different. It is a science and an art, which requires serious

studies to be practiced professionaly. In Western world research is done mostly

in Europe (France, Germany). Every essential oil has it's biochemical

constituents mapped out. I don't know about research on oils in Chinese medicie,

but I see topical use of e.oils on acu points as just one of the ways to

influence Qi.

 

My suggestion would be to experience those modalities on yourself and if they

work for you - do some study on how and why they work. Otherwise it's not worth

your time.

 

Respectfuly,

Esme

[Guest guest]

There are actually numerous scientific studies and volumes of research data

on essential oils and how it works on human physiology.

Consider that the science of aromatics is a multi-billion dollar industry.

 

This is a huge subject with enormous impacts on our medicine as well,

considering that many of our most important herbs rely on the essential oil

content

for many of their functional effect.

 

As i wrote before, Kurt Schnaubelt, Ph.D has written 2 instructive books...

" Advanced Aromatherapy, the science of essential oils " and " Medical

Aromatherapy, healing with essential oils " which distills much of the

information that has been pooled from research from the last century. I

agree that most books on aromatherapy don't tell you the how, but just the

what.. with a laundry list of physical or emotional indications.

 

For those who are into integral theories and Ken Wilber's quadrant model,

Franchomme and Penoel created a quadrant model called the " structure effect

system " for essential oil constituents with the following quadrants :

upper left: polar, upper right: non-polar, lower left: hydrophilic and lower

right: lipophilic.

 

The upper quadrants essential oil components: calming - cool - yin - blue

The lower quadrants essential oil components: stimulant - hot - yang - red

 

In upper left: aldehydes, ketones, sesquiterpene lactones

In upper right: esters, sesquiterpene hydrocarbons

In lower left: sesquiterpene alcoholes, phenyl propanes, phenols, terpene

alcohols

In lower right: terpene hydrocarbons, phenyl propanes, oxide

 

Essential oils through smell stimulate the limbic system ie emotions (shen)

through complex hormone-mimicking actions...

How do they react with the body through the skin?... as irritants or

through slower absorption through the integumentary system, seeping deeper

via peripheral capillaries into the blood stream.

How do they work on acu-points? How does acupuncture work?

 

To keep the discussion to Chinese applications of herbs with essential oil

content in medicine... also consider the usage of ginger and garlic for

indirect moxa.

Why is ginger used topically with a moxa cone on top of it, applied to the

navel for instance?

We might say SP yang def.

 

Here is an excerpt from " Medical Aromatherapy " pg. 208

" Ginger (Zingiber officinale)

Ginger oil is as much a true tonic as the use of its root in traditional

Chinese medicine would lead one to expect. It benefits most digestive

problems and is immune-strengthening. Recent studies have confirmed

ginger's pronounced effects on the digestive tract. In these studies, the

pungent components of ginger were shown to inhibit cyclo-oxygenase and

lipoxygenase enzyme activity in the arachidonic acid metabolic pathway and

thereby reduce inflammation and relieve pain, as in rheumatic disorders and

migraine headaches. Other compounds of ginger were shown to protect against

gastric mucosal lesions. "

 

The traditional method by the Chinese is an enteric application of the

essential oil via heating mugwort on top of it.

 

Garlic moxa is also a traditional method that is used for boils, parasites

and other skin issues ie. toxins. In my opinion, this could be translated

as anti-microbial, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal etc. which garlic has been

proven to be so in many accounts.

 

Please read the books for more detailed information. This is an extensive

investigation.

K

[Guest guest]

On Dec 23, 2009, at 1:52 PM, wrote:

 

>

> I think Thea is speaking to this. When Elizabeth la Roche says tu

> xue or " something like blood ejection " does she have an insight to a

> broader English dictionary meaning or beyond Fundamentals 101? Does

> Jeffery Yuen " make things up " (Ok, easy target) or does he have

> insight?

> What we may think about the above teachers I do believe they have a

> vast knowledge of classical Chinese texts and language. Thea was

> asking for a deeper meaning, this is not " tripping " or MSU.

> I'll play devil's advocate, maybe we are missing deeper meanings

> (esoteric or just true meaning?) if we stop at our dictionary

> explanations.

> Doug

>

Devil's advocate, you speak for me... (I'm laughing)

 

 

On Dec 23, 2009, at 2:29 PM, wrote:

 

> There is a fine line between clear understanding, obfuscation, and

> interpretation. When studying classical sources, we always walk

> that line. " Fundamentalism " may err in the direction of rigidity,

> but those who choose to interpret according to an understanding

> based on personal bias may also err by losing the plot. That fine

> line is understanding cultural context, deep study of texts and

> their principles, clinical applications, and comparison of

> translations and term sets.

 

Yes-- I would agree, and would like to add more to the discussion of

this fine line, and the necessary rigors of how we precede in our

understandings. ...I just do not think that I can do so with the

requisite thoughtful clarity until my in-laws are no longer in my

house... That is to say, after the holiday weekend. At this time I

will simply note that yes, I share your concerns.

 

>

> Elisabeth is an scholar, not a clinician, so within her discipline,

> interpretation and nuance are very important. For a clinician,

> however, more clear definitions serve what is needed more directly.

> I personally like both, one for inspiration, one for practical

> application, but clarity is always important.

 

 

Is this so? I have always understood Elisabeth to have at least begun

a clinician as well as a scholar-- certainly her conversation has

indicated this-- although it has been a number of years now since we

have conversed. Perhaps I am mistaken-- are you sure? Father Larre

was certainly not a clinician, but I have always appreciated the

practicality of Elisabeth's applications of scholarly teachings to

actual practice (although one must ASK HER for this; it is not

volunteered).

 

I am remembering now a visit to Paris in which I spent a week camping

out underneath Elisabeth's grand piano, in her apartment through which

drifted many students of Chinese medicine, and although following

their conversations in French was difficile to say the least, it was

clear that Elisabeth lived in a context of clinical practice.

 

I will verify Elisabeth's training and practice as a clinician (at

least at some point in her life) as soon as I can, because it is

pertinent to my views on how rigor of understanding/ interpretation is

achieved.

 

 

On Dec 23, 2009, at 3:34 PM, wrote:

 

> I guess I just

> find it hard to believe that we (especially some westerner) can have

> a more

> truer interpretation than what generations of Chinese have thought.

 

You surely have no argument from me here! I look forward to making

further reply to your posting from which I have merely abstracted this

one quotation. I liked very much your idea of working together from

an example.

 

I beg pardon in advance that my response times on this list serve may

not be as swift as many of you seem to enjoy; I often need time to

mull over how to speak clearly, and also my life is very full.

 

Happy holidays...

 

Thea Elijah

[Guest guest]

I don't think there is any argument whether essential oils can act on the body.

That is well established. I think the main issue is whether they will act upon

individual acupoints in a unique way. This could actually be tested in a

clinical trial in China. It may be possible for somebody to pull this off at a

PhD program in a place like Zhejiang TCM University.

 

- Bill

 

 

 

 

, <johnkokko wrote:

>

> There are actually numerous scientific studies and volumes of research data

> on essential oils and how it works on human physiology.

> Consider that the science of aromatics is a multi-billion dollar industry.

>

> This is a huge subject with enormous impacts on our medicine as well,

> considering that many of our most important herbs rely on the essential oil

> content

> for many of their functional effect.

>

[Guest guest]

John wrote,

 

" Essential oils through smell stimulate the limbic system ie emotions (shen)

through complex hormone-mimicking actions...

How do they react with the body through the skin?... as irritants or

through slower absorption through the integumentary system, seeping deeper

via peripheral capillaries into the blood stream.

How do they work on acu-points? How does acupuncture work? "

 

The big difference here is that acupuncture has been shown to be actually

effective for many disorders, even though the why is still poorly understood.

Whereas the effect of placing something like Chai Hu essential oil on Liv 3, I

would say, has pretty poor clinical accounts of doing anything. Any case studies

to back up the use of essential oils on acu points? Perhaps not just one or two,

but several hundred- thousand?

 

Basically, what is the therapeutic goal when applying an essential oil to an acu

point? And is the goal achieved?

 

I would also say that the use of real ginger, which is moist and thick, placed

under a moxa cone is much different than using the essential oil of ginger.

Anybody try burning direct moxa over top of Ginger oil on the skin? What was the

effect?

 

Trevor

 

---

[Guest guest]

Thea,

 

You write about Chinese terms as being something other than the obvious. I am

not sure what this is supposed to achieve. When it comes to actual, observable,

physical phenomenon like " tu xue " , ie. the ejection of blood via the mouth, this

is a very obvious symptom that cannot be misrepresented. Blood coming out of the

mouth is exactly that, blood coming out of the mouth. Sure it can be from many

different things going on within the body, but the main symptom/ pathology of

blood being ejected from the mouth is what it is. I find it hard to believe that

the Chinese were making a parable out of an obvious symptom.

 

On the other hand, many herbs listed in the original Ben Cao works were

indicated for " demon " related illness. I think that the idea of demon possession

is definitely open for discussion, as many of the symptoms related to it could

be viewed differently when the " demonology " lens is removed.

 

Happy holidays everyone :-)

 

Trevor

 

-

[Guest guest]

Thea,

It is very possible that Elisabeth began with a clinical period, in fact

quite likely judging by her writings. But like all of us, she has settled into

a groove of writing very interesting texts/translations with a decidedly

philosophical bent. I love her books, because I am more comfortable with

philosophy than data-based material, and I also teach in a somewhat

philosophical and hopefully inspirational style. But I try to balance those

two aspects of medicine.

 

But based on the example of tu xue, it is hard in this context (e-mail) to

understand exactly what Elisabeth is implying about 'vomiting blood not

necessarily meaning vomiting blood'. Yes, the original text (it would be good

to know the exact citation, with Chinese text) may be speaking of a process, a

movement of qi, but generations of practitioners have had to 'bring down' the

philosophical aspect into clinical reality to treat specific patterns and

disorders.

 

I've always wanted to see her dictionary of Chinese medical terms. Ken Rose

promised me one years ago, I can read or translate French with some help, and I

think it would help clear up some of my questions.

 

I love the 'sleeping under the grand piano' metaphor. Much more elegant

that then the 'fly on the wall' metaphor. I can just see it, the Paris

apartment, students wandering in and out. It sounds like the era of Modigliani

in Montparnasse, the artist's world, the mingling and sharing of ideas.

 

A bit more personalized that internet meetings like this or even conferences

in airless, windowless airport hotels. You can almost smell the sweat, hear the

voices, clearing of throats, taste the cups of tea.

 

Our profession needs much more of this. .

 

 

All the best,

 

 

On Dec 24, 2009, at 7:59 AM, Thea Elijah wrote:

 

> I have always understood Elisabeth to have at least begun

> a clinician as well as a scholar-- certainly her conversation has

> indicated this-- although it has been a number of years now since we

> have conversed. Perhaps I am mistaken-- are you sure? Father Larre

> was certainly not a clinician, but I have always appreciated the

> practicality of Elisabeth's applications of scholarly teachings to

> actual practice (although one must ASK HER for this; it is not

> volunteered).

>

> I am remembering now a visit to Paris in which I spent a week camping

> out underneath Elisabeth's grand piano, in her apartment through which

> drifted many students of Chinese medicine, and although following

> their conversations in French was difficile to say the least, it was

> clear that Elisabeth lived in a context of clinical practice.

>

> I will verify Elisabeth's training and practice as a clinician (at

> least at some point in her life) as soon as I can, because it is

> pertinent to my views on how rigor of understanding/ interpretation is

> achieved.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Trevor,

I don't use essential oils in my clinical practice,

except for the traditional direct moxa therapy (where the oils rub off on

both my fingers and the patient's skin), using liniments, plasters and a

rare ginger moxa. I don't burn incense at my clinic, but have direct

experience of the shen-influencing nature of burning essential oils. My

curiosity is more in how the essential oils of the herbs that we use can

affect us internally through the decoctions/ powder that we prescribe, not

necessarily what kind of aura colors you get if you put lavender on Yin tang

or a rose-quartz crystal on Ren 17. I think that correct needle placement,

intention, attention and Qi transmission can do anything that an oil, sound,

color, crystal or laser can do.

 

I personally don't like to experiment too much with new tools or machines or

gizmos.. not very technical-savvy.

I think that there's plenty of experimentation that can be done within the

confines of acupuncture-moxa combinations and manual physical therapies

along with medical Qi-gong and the techniques that are traditionally passed

down from teacher to apprentice.

 

At the same time, I think that we should be open to the possibility that

essential oils can affect the acupuncture points in ways that are probably

different from traditional needle therapy.

Studies could be done using an essential oil applied to the skin and doing

fMRI for different points using the same oil or different oils on the same

point.

 

Many studies, especially in China, have been done on injecting herbs into

acupuncture points and is in the scope of practice for acupuncturists in at

least 6 states. I'm wondering if this kind of research would be useful for

understanding how essential oils can affect the body through acu-point

applications.

 

Jeffrey Yuen has said that he " channels " a lot of his information. So, I

don't know if his lecture information can be cross-checked with other

teachers/ texts in history, however his status as a lineage holder in two

major daoist lineages as a priest and his decades-long tutelage from 2

supposedly superior physicians (1 acupuncturist and 1 herbalist) says a lot

according to the traditional Chinese ways of respecting knowledge.

 

So much to learn and unlearn,

Happy Holy-days,

K

 

 

 

 

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 10:31 AM, trevor_erikson <trevor_eriksonwrote:

 

>

>

> John wrote,

>

>

> " Essential oils through smell stimulate the limbic system ie emotions

> (shen)

> through complex hormone-mimicking actions...

> How do they react with the body through the skin?... as irritants or

> through slower absorption through the integumentary system, seeping deeper

> via peripheral capillaries into the blood stream.

> How do they work on acu-points? How does acupuncture work? "

>

> The big difference here is that acupuncture has been shown to be actually

> effective for many disorders, even though the why is still poorly

> understood. Whereas the effect of placing something like Chai Hu essential

> oil on Liv 3, I would say, has pretty poor clinical accounts of doing

> anything. Any case studies to back up the use of essential oils on acu

> points? Perhaps not just one or two, but several hundred- thousand?

>

> Basically, what is the therapeutic goal when applying an essential oil to

> an acu point? And is the goal achieved?

>

> I would also say that the use of real ginger, which is moist and thick,

> placed under a moxa cone is much different than using the essential oil of

> ginger. Anybody try burning direct moxa over top of Ginger oil on the skin?

> What was the effect?

>

> Trevor

>

> ---

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

 

 

""

 

 

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev, I don't think this was a metaphor. I think it was literal, camped out

under the Grand Piano. Yet we can infer other things from it. Like SleepING

under Ze PiaNO... Or Zomthing Like Theez!

Love, take care everybody... have a good Xmas, holiday season....

Doug

 

 

 

, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> Thea,

 

>

> I love the 'sleeping under the grand piano' metaphor. Much more elegant

that then the 'fly on the wall' metaphor. I can just see it, the Paris

apartment, students wandering in and out. It sounds like the era of Modigliani

in Montparnasse, the artist's world, the mingling and sharing of ideas.

>

> A bit more personalized that internet meetings like this or even

conferences in airless, windowless airport hotels. You can almost smell the

sweat, hear the voices, clearing of throats, taste the cups of tea.

>

> Our profession needs much more of this. .

>

>

[Guest guest]

It's something I've been working on individually, as a side project while

I'm in school. The problem is translating the functions and indications of

the essential oils into TCM terms. I have found a number of good sites for

this, though.

I listed them here:

http://thehatefulnerd.livejournal.com/5457.html

So far, I've had positive results.

 

 

 

-

" bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2

 

Thursday, December 24, 2009 12:24 PM

Re: Esoteric Herbology Book?

 

 

>I don't think there is any argument whether essential oils can act on the

>body. That is well established. I think the main issue is whether they will

>act upon individual acupoints in a unique way. This could actually be

>tested in a clinical trial in China. It may be possible for somebody to

>pull this off at a PhD program in a place like Zhejiang TCM University.

>

> - Bill

>

>

>

>

> , <johnkokko

> wrote:

>>

>> There are actually numerous scientific studies and volumes of research

>> data

>> on essential oils and how it works on human physiology.

>> Consider that the science of aromatics is a multi-billion dollar

>> industry.

>>

>> This is a huge subject with enormous impacts on our medicine as well,

>> considering that many of our most important herbs rely on the essential

>> oil

>> content

>> for many of their functional effect.

>>

>

>

>

>

> ---

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a

> practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

John,

 

 

 

Without saying anything about JY, the Chinese I have discussed such

" creditials " with pretty much laugh. Anyone who claims XX generation taoist

priest is quite simply not taken seriously. But maybe the Chinese that you

know respect such titles. I personally am not impressed with anyone who

cannot source their material and instead say they are just " channeling " it.

From second hand sources, I have heard JY's " channeled " sources many times

do not pan out (when checked).

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

 

 

 

however his status as a lineage holder in two

major daoist lineages as a priest and his decades-long tutelage from 2

supposedly superior physicians (1 acupuncturist and 1 herbalist) says a lot

according to the traditional Chinese ways of respecting knowledge.

 

So much to learn and unlearn,

Happy Holy-days,

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sacre bleu!

 

Z'ev

On Dec 24, 2009, at 4:07 PM, wrote:

 

> Z'ev, I don't think this was a metaphor. I think it was literal, camped out

under the Grand Piano. Yet we can infer other things from it. Like SleepING

under Ze PiaNO... Or Zomthing Like Theez!

> Love, take care everybody... have a good Xmas, holiday season....

> Doug

>

> , <zrosenbe

wrote:

> >

> > Thea,

>

> >

> > I love the 'sleeping under the grand piano' metaphor. Much more elegant that

then the 'fly on the wall' metaphor. I can just see it, the Paris apartment,

students wandering in and out. It sounds like the era of Modigliani in

Montparnasse, the artist's world, the mingling and sharing of ideas.

> >

> > A bit more personalized that internet meetings like this or even conferences

in airless, windowless airport hotels. You can almost smell the sweat, hear the

voices, clearing of throats, taste the cups of tea.

> >

> > Our profession needs much more of this. .

> >

> >

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

Have you ever been to a JY seminar or read his transcripts? If not, i have been

to six 3-day seminars and can tell you he has never mentioned his linage and it

seems to only come up when others are talking about him.. i feel it would be

very shameful for someone to not take Jeff or the like seriously just because of

the history or lineage and am certain this attitude would not exist if you

actually sit in on any of his lectures.

 

Joey Bedrosian

704-578-6245

nrgcreator

 

 

live long & love strong

 

 

 

 

________________________________

 

 

Thu, December 24, 2009 7:36:39 PM

RE: Esoteric Herbology Book?

 

 

John,

 

Without saying anything about JY, the Chinese I have discussed such

" creditials " with pretty much laugh. Anyone who claims XX generation taoist

priest is quite simply not taken seriously. But maybe the Chinese that you

know respect such titles. I personally am not impressed with anyone who

cannot source their material and instead say they are just " channeling " it.

From second hand sources, I have heard JY's " channeled " sources many times

do not pan out (when checked).

 

-Jason

 

 

[] On Behalf Of

 

however his status as a lineage holder in two

major daoist lineages as a priest and his decades-long tutelage from 2

supposedly superior physicians (1 acupuncturist and 1 herbalist) says a lot

according to the traditional Chinese ways of respecting knowledge.

 

So much to learn and unlearn,

Happy Holy-days,

K

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi John,

 

the lectures i have seen with JY have always been very thoroughly sited. I have

never heard him say such things like that and am shocked to hear it. Not saying

its made up, just saying its certainly not typical and all 100+ hours i have sat

and listened to him, everything has been direct translations from classics..

 

If any of you you are interested or unfamiliar with his work i encourage you to

come and sit in for your self. You can get more info here:

http://www.daoisttraditions.com/jeffrey%20yuen.html if you wouldlike to come to

asheville (this site is updated as he comes 2-3 times yearly) or here for

national lectures: http://www.jadepurityfoundation.org/calendar/month.php

 

Best of health,

 

Joey Bedrosian LMBT (NC#3259)

Advanced Massage Therapy

704-578-6245

nrgcreator

 

 

live long & love strong

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<johnkokko

 

Thu, December 24, 2009 6:42:25 PM

Re: Esoteric Herbology Book?

 

 

Trevor,

I don't use essential oils in my clinical practice,

except for the traditional direct moxa therapy (where the oils rub off on

both my fingers and the patient's skin), using liniments, plasters and a

rare ginger moxa. I don't burn incense at my clinic, but have direct

experience of the shen-influencing nature of burning essential oils. My

curiosity is more in how the essential oils of the herbs that we use can

affect us internally through the decoctions/ powder that we prescribe, not

necessarily what kind of aura colors you get if you put lavender on Yin tang

or a rose-quartz crystal on Ren 17. I think that correct needle placement,

intention, attention and Qi transmission can do anything that an oil, sound,

color, crystal or laser can do.

 

I personally don't like to experiment too much with new tools or machines or

gizmos.. not very technical-savvy.

I think that there's plenty of experimentation that can be done within the

confines of acupuncture- moxa combinations and manual physical therapies

along with medical Qi-gong and the techniques that are traditionally passed

down from teacher to apprentice.

 

At the same time, I think that we should be open to the possibility that

essential oils can affect the acupuncture points in ways that are probably

different from traditional needle therapy.

Studies could be done using an essential oil applied to the skin and doing

fMRI for different points using the same oil or different oils on the same

point.

 

Many studies, especially in China, have been done on injecting herbs into

acupuncture points and is in the scope of practice for acupuncturists in at

least 6 states. I'm wondering if this kind of research would be useful for

understanding how essential oils can affect the body through acu-point

applications.

 

Jeffrey Yuen has said that he " channels " a lot of his information. So, I

don't know if his lecture information can be cross-checked with other

teachers/ texts in history, however his status as a lineage holder in two

major daoist lineages as a priest and his decades-long tutelage from 2

supposedly superior physicians (1 acupuncturist and 1 herbalist) says a lot

according to the traditional Chinese ways of respecting knowledge.

 

So much to learn and unlearn,

Happy Holy-days,

K

 

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 10:31 AM, trevor_erikson <trevor_erikson@

.ca>wrote:

 

>

>

> John wrote,

>

>

> " Essential oils through smell stimulate the limbic system ie emotions

> (shen)

> through complex hormone-mimicking actions...

> How do they react with the body through the skin?... as irritants or

> through slower absorption through the integumentary system, seeping deeper

> via peripheral capillaries into the blood stream.

> How do they work on acu-points? How does acupuncture work? "

>

> The big difference here is that acupuncture has been shown to be actually

> effective for many disorders, even though the why is still poorly

> understood. Whereas the effect of placing something like Chai Hu essential

> oil on Liv 3, I would say, has pretty poor clinical accounts of doing

> anything. Any case studies to back up the use of essential oils on acu

> points? Perhaps not just one or two, but several hundred- thousand?

>

> Basically, what is the therapeutic goal when applying an essential oil to

> an acu point? And is the goal achieved?

>

> I would also say that the use of real ginger, which is moist and thick,

> placed under a moxa cone is much different than using the essential oil of

> ginger. Anybody try burning direct moxa over top of Ginger oil on the skin?

> What was the effect?

>

> Trevor

>

> ---

>

>

>

 

--

 

 

""

 

www.turtleclinic. com

www.tcmreview. com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Joey,

I have all of the written transcripts available and all of the audio

recordings available from www.conferencerecording.com

 

Jeffrey (especially in the 90s), said that he channels information (which he

sometimes doesn't even remember that he said that, but hears it later) in at

least two of the audio recordings. For me, that's not a problem, because I

write that way a lot of the time and then look back at it later and can't

believe my fingers typed those letters.

 

I'm amazed at his accuracy and the volume of information that he relays,

especially with acupuncture trajectories in the secondary channels and his

understanding of the history of the progression of herbalism. This

information is what I'm especially interested in and is what he talked about

in his early days of teaching in the 90s.

 

What some people might have issues with is his interpretation of the

" spiritual " nature of herbs, secondary channels and acu-points and his

practice of applying essential oils to acu-points, his current use of gems

etc. Most of these aspects of his lectures have very little precedent and

textual evidence to back them up. Although, it could be said that these

practices were practiced by yogic, tibetan, egyptian and daoist

practitioners in more " esoteric " circles, there isn't much of a paper-trail

to support these claims.

 

I have nothing against " mediums " either. Tibetans still use the

" state-medium " to guide their important affairs. In Korea, there are over

40,000 officially registered shamans, which are mediums for the

spirit-world. Prayer itself is SUPPOSED to create mediumship between us and

the spirit world.

 

I look at J. Yuen's work from the 90s analogous to John Coltrane's Atlantic

Records years, which were solid and gorgeous.. sheets of sound was strange

to most ears, but still considered genius.

JY's work from the last decade have been more like Coltrane's Impulse!

Records years... far out, extreme, cosmic.

In the 60s, Coltrane was a " medium " for something extraordinary, without

boundaries and without precedent.

 

Only time will tell if J.Yuen will be considered a master ahead of his time

or a new-age quack. I, for one, hope for the sake of our medicine that he's

the former.

 

Merry Christ-mass,

K

 

 

 

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 5:25 PM, Joey Bedrosian <nrgcreatorwrote:

 

>

>

> Hi John,

>

> the lectures i have seen with JY have always been very thoroughly sited. I

> have never heard him say such things like that and am shocked to hear it.

> Not saying its made up, just saying its certainly not typical and all 100+

> hours i have sat and listened to him, everything has been direct

> translations from classics..

>

> If any of you you are interested or unfamiliar with his work i encourage

> you to come and sit in for your self. You can get more info here:

> http://www.daoisttraditions.com/jeffrey%20yuen.html if you wouldlike to

> come to asheville (this site is updated as he comes 2-3 times yearly) or

> here for national lectures:

> http://www.jadepurityfoundation.org/calendar/month.php

>

> Best of health,

>

> Joey Bedrosian LMBT (NC#3259)

> Advanced Massage Therapy

>

[Guest guest]

John,

 

thanks for the info and reminding me why i love this group!

 

Happy Holidays to all!

 

Joey Bedrosian

704-578-6245

nrgcreator

 

 

live long & love strong

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<johnkokko

 

Fri, December 25, 2009 2:00:36 AM

Re: Esoteric Herbology Book?

 

 

Joey,

I have all of the written transcripts available and all of the audio

recordings available from www.conferencerecor ding.com

 

Jeffrey (especially in the 90s),

[Guest guest]

Joey,

 

 

 

To answer your question, yes I have listened to many recordings, and have read

many transcripts. I understand people love him and have no problem with that. I

really have no comment on him nor his material, just that his information does

not do much for me.

 

 

 

My previous comment is purely in relation to what John said about being a

" lineage holder " being the way that (traditional) Chinese evaluate and hence

respect " knowledge " . I just don't think that the majority of Chinese doctors

past or present have cared much about being a daoist priest lineage holder. I

could be wrong. It is just my experience in reading pre-modern texts and

conversations with alive Chinese doctors. I respect differing opinions and would

love to hear the other side of things.

 

 

 

Consequently, I believe people should be judged purely on their information and

not some title. Meaning such a title, IMO, does not give him (or anyone else)

any extra wiggle room to MSU.

 

 

 

However decades of experience does say something... therefore, if the

information resonates with you, go for it...

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Joey Bedrosian

Thursday, December 24, 2009 6:18 PM

 

Re: Esoteric Herbology Book?

 

 

 

 

 

Jason,

Have you ever been to a JY seminar or read his transcripts? If not, i have been

to six 3-day seminars and can tell you he has never mentioned his linage and it

seems to only come up when others are talking about him.. i feel it would be

very shameful for someone to not take Jeff or the like seriously just because of

the history or lineage and am certain this attitude would not exist if you

actually sit in on any of his lectures.

 

Joey Bedrosian

704-578-6245

nrgcreator <nrgcreator%40>

 

live long & love strong

 

________________________________

<

<%40Chinese Medicine> >

 

<%40>

Thu, December 24, 2009 7:36:39 PM

RE: Esoteric Herbology Book?

 

John,

 

Without saying anything about JY, the Chinese I have discussed such

" creditials " with pretty much laugh. Anyone who claims XX generation taoist

priest is quite simply not taken seriously. But maybe the Chinese that you

know respect such titles. I personally am not impressed with anyone who

cannot source their material and instead say they are just " channeling " it.

From second hand sources, I have heard JY's " channeled " sources many times

do not pan out (when checked).

 

-Jason

 

 

[] On Behalf Of

 

however his status as a lineage holder in two

major daoist lineages as a priest and his decades-long tutelage from 2

supposedly superior physicians (1 acupuncturist and 1 herbalist) says a lot

according to the traditional Chinese ways of respecting knowledge.

 

So much to learn and unlearn,

Happy Holy-days,

K

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

J. Yuen's education background is an example of a non-institutionalized

education, which in my book can be more credible than getting a degree from

a state-run school. I say that because some of the best physicians I know

learned through their families (blood or adopted) and not from a college.

Aside from the daoist priesthood, on his jadepurityfoundation.org website,

he claims an 8 year apprenticeship through his herbal teacher, Gong

Song-Liu, who was a eunuch for the last 2 Qing dynasty emperors and himself

apprenticed with the imperial medical physicians.

 

I agree that titles don't mean very much, but lineage does. It takes some

karmic currency to become a lineage holder, yet I agree with you that being

a daoist priest doesn't necessarily make you an expert on all things medical

or spiritual. It definitely doesn't give you a license to make up stuff and

pass it off as holy writ. Having a title is actually a huge responsibility

and possibly a deep liability. It's true that there are many

self-proclaimed masters, lineage holders and legalistic experts on the

planet. But, for some reason, many people are drawn to J. Yuen's words

and humble persona. There's something intuitively correct about his

teachings in the eyes of many practitioners and there aren't many people in

our field who are seeing things outside of the box or even through a

classical lens. Do you think J.Yuen's teachings would be popular in China?

or is his popularity in America due to a lack of something in ourselves?

What's your explanation?

 

K

 

 

 

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 4:36 PM, <

> wrote:

 

>

>

> John,

>

> Without saying anything about JY, the Chinese I have discussed such

> " creditials " with pretty much laugh. Anyone who claims XX generation taoist

> priest is quite simply not taken seriously. But maybe the Chinese that you

> know respect such titles. I personally am not impressed with anyone who

> cannot source their material and instead say they are just " channeling " it.

> From second hand sources, I have heard JY's " channeled " sources many times

> do not pan out (when checked).

>

> -Jason

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is my understanding that essential oil therapy as developed in Europe (I

think it was France) was based on ingesting these aromatic oils. It's

watered down version was exported elsewhere including the US where

prohibitions were established based on the danger of ingesting concentrated

volatile oils without proper and informed guidance. So most of us have come

to think that aromatherapy is somehow smelling an oil, putting it on the

skin or on an acupuncture point. This is fabrication with no basis in fact

or relative efficacy.

 

 

 

I think the reason that people initially use volatile oils and other

external applications on acupuncture points is because they are not licensed

to include needling. Certainly this is the case with Jeffrey Yuen. I don't

know this for sure but I think Stephen Chang uses acupowder in lieu of

maintaining a clinical practice.

 

 

 

This is not to say whether these have effect or not. I think in some

instances they may be effective just as in some instances we decide whether

needling, bleeding, moxa, scraping or herbal therapy is the most effective

we may decide that a Bach flower remedy, or an EFT session may be the most

effective way to clear the underlying emotional aspect that is often behind

most diseases. No matter we do, we cannot discount the fact that whether we

like it or not, at least 50% of all results achieved are due to placebo

(http://www.skepdic.com/placebo.html#falseplacebo).

 

 

 

I posit the notion that Bach flower essences and indeed all flower essences

are fundamentally specially designed 'placebo remedies. "

 

 

 

I suggest that you might consider the following as a way as to how Bach

'created' his 38 remedies:

 

 

 

Cerato for uncertainty and doubt

 

Honeysuckle for nostalgia, living in the past

 

Pine taking as a cue of 'pining' to be for self reproach, guilt

 

Rock water for rigidity

 

Scleranthus for indecisive and fluctuating moods (some how the name

represents the emotion to me)

 

Willow for bitter resentment (willow being a very well known bitter herb)

 

And then there is impatiens for impatience

 

 

 

I suggest that you read Dr. Bach's history at

http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/realmofnature/history_of_dr__bach.htm

 

 

 

So far as I'm concerned all other flower essences that have been created in

recent years are way to commercialize and profit from Bach's discoveries.

Remember despite the fact that they are presently marketed, Bach insisted

that they be without charge and free. A little known fact that is hardly

mentioned for obvious reasons. Personally, I see no need for more than his

original 38 remedies but if they and all the remedies were free I would not

care a wit.

 

 

 

Bach was attempting to cure the emotions associated with a disease through

the use of his 38 homeopathic flower essences. Almost anything can change

or clear an emotional aspect of one's being. Some use Flower essences

applied in any number of ways including acupuncture points , while others

might use other methods such as EFT Emotional Freedom Technique, Ericksonian

hypnosis, Neuro-linguistic programming, various shamanistic practices.

 

 

 

Does using these reflect on and have an impact on our TCM practice or indeed

on any healing modality? Absolutely! Every healing system utilizes

consciously or not so-called objective and subjective approaches. I think it

is important that discussions such as this one are undertaken from time to

time even though it's difficult to understand what they prove.

 

 

 

There is a part of us that should remain vigilant in upholding the rational

veracity of TCM at the same time admitting of the myriad of inconsistencies

that can and do arise from its precepts and theorems.

 

 

 

To lean too much to one side over the other is to lose perspective of the

whole.

 

 

 

The proof is always the results we can achieve. Personally, I find Jeffrey

Yuen to be brilliant and fascinating (up to a point) but I've not been able

to translate anything from any of the many lectures I've attended into

clinical results - but I know and respect that others have.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Dec 24, 2009, at 1:47 PM, trevor_erikson wrote:

 

> Thea,

>

> You write about Chinese terms as being something other than the

> obvious. I am not sure what this is supposed to achieve.

>

Yes. I see that I have not made this clear. I will be endeavoring to

do so.

 

 

> When it comes to actual, observable, physical phenomenon like " tu

> xue " , ie. the ejection of blood via the mouth, this is a very

> obvious symptom that cannot be misrepresented. Blood coming out of

> the mouth is exactly that, blood coming out of the mouth. Sure it

> can be from many different things going on within the body, but the

> main symptom/ pathology of blood being ejected from the mouth is

> what it is. I find it hard to believe that the Chinese were making a

> parable out of an obvious symptom.

>

This is, however, EXACTLY what Elisabeth was implying, not only on

that occasion but on many occasions-- she was saying that this is how

the text is meant to be read-- that the descriptions of obvious

physical symptoms were given, as obviously as possible, so that people

could get a very clear sense of the fractal. We are meant to take

these indications as signifiers rather than parameters.

 

This is confirmed in discussion with Heiner Fruehauf.

 

Also by Jeffrey Yuen, but I see that on this list serve he is not

necessarily considered an authoritative source. Of the three,

unfortunately he is the only one whom I can cite in writing

(transcript). With Elisabeth and Heiner it was in class or in

conversation.

 

I can see that there is a lot more to say to support the perspective I

am advancing. I have begun a three part essay. Part one is written;

part two is in the thrashing stage. Part three is a dream to be

achieved hopefully within a week or so, and it will return to the

whole notion of the difference between Euclidean style (Western) and

fractal style (Chinese) thinking.

 

 

Thanks for your respectful exchange in the face of disagreement -- I

appreciate it greatly.

 

 

Thea Elijah

 

 

 

 

 

>

> On the other hand, many herbs listed in the original Ben Cao works

> were indicated for " demon " related illness. I think that the idea of

> demon possession is definitely open for discussion, as many of the

> symptoms related to it could be viewed differently when the

> " demonology " lens is removed.

>

> Happy holidays everyone :-)

>

> Trevor

>

> -

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Dec 24, 2009, at 4:48 PM, wrote:

 

> Thea,

> It is very possible that Elisabeth began with a clinical period, in

> fact quite likely judging by her writings.

>

 

Through mutual friends I have verified that Elisabeth is a trained

acupuncturist who has never had a full time practice, but who is

certainly a clinical practitioner of Chinese medicine.

 

I must say that only a commitment to remaining open to opposing

views-- coupled with the fact that I have never actually personally

witnessed Elisabeth first hand sticking a needle in anyone-- left me

any room for doubt in the matter. I am very glad that in this case,

what seemed to be so, is so. (Otherwise it would have meant that

either I was delusional or she was fraudulent)

 

I do not have details as to the nature of Elisabeth's practical

education in Chinese medicine, nor the style or extent of her practice

over time. I am not sure if she is still in pratice, but she certainly

still was in the mid-90's, well into her publishing and teaching

career. If anyone cares to know more about this, perhaps they can

take up the investigation.

 

Meanwhile, Z'ev, I agree that it may be said that we are both

correct. Elisabeth is not primarily a clinician, and it is not her

public legacy. Also she is an acupuncturist but not an herbalist.

 

 

On Dec 24, 2009, at 7:07 PM, wrote:

 

> Z'ev, I don't think this was a metaphor. I think it was literal,

> camped out under the Grand Piano. Yet we can infer other things from

> it. Like SleepING under Ze PiaNO... Or Zomthing Like Theez!

>

 

Mister, once again you are SO on my beam!

 

Yes, I was literally camping out under Elisabeth's piano.... AND all

the fractal imagery generated by Z'ev was also accurate adduced.

 

 

laughing, serious--

 

 

Thea Elijah

[Guest guest]

I've been waiting for years for someone to actually vet JY's creds. This would

be a great project, a la what Peter Eckman did for JR Worsley in the Footsteps

of the Yellow Emperor. Since JY's become such a celebrity within our profession,

his credentials need to be verified, especially since they are " unusual. " It's

reltively easy to check out if someone graduated from the Shanghai University of

TCM; less so with JY's putative creds. Personally, I'm dubious and have been for

many years. In fact, I'm happy to see this issue finally broached in public.

Like Jason, I'm not impressed with the teachings of JY's that I've either read

or heard. They don't ring true for me. But hey, that's just me; that's my

opinion. Biography and credentials, on the other hand, are objective (to the

point that anything is objective). It would be a great service for the

profession to know the real skinny on JY. If everything turned out " as

advertised, " then I'd be happy to look at JY's teachings a second time. What

I've seen and heard so far are claims without any form of normal academic

substantiation.