Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

[Guest guest]

" Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of the

role of

detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model

and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses.

I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools

learning about various methods of general detoxification,

fasting, etc.

 

Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are

antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree

that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the

model.

 

Treatment is always based on patterns....so, we don't have/need

de-tox

 

Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early

studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on

food is bad for you.

 

So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it's just not part of

the model

 

Stephen Woodley Lac "

 

 

 

I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of " not part

of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly is the

way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is probably older

than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and there

is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder whether

detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM. I've

always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and historically

there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat clearing and

purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese medicine goes

further in terms of identifying the specific toxin.

 

 

 

If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other symptoms,

isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

While it is true that modern TCM teaches little of detoxing, it was used by

the Purge school. Since starvation was rampant during Mao's time, purging

was not emphasized.

 

Ayurveda developed out of seeing fat cats that ate too much or had too much

sex. Its what TCM will develop this generation with the event of KFC,

McDonald's, smoking, stress, modern lifestyle, etc. in China.

 

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra <mtierrawrote:

 

> " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of the

> role of

> detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model

> and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses.

> I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools

> learning about various methods of general detoxification,

> fasting, etc.

>

> Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are

> antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree

> that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the

> model.

>

> Treatment is always based on patterns....so, we don't have/need

> de-tox

>

> Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early

> studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on

> food is bad for you.

>

> So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it's just not part of

> the model

>

> Stephen Woodley Lac "

>

>

>

> I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of " not part

> of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly is the

> way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is probably

> older

> than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and there

> is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder

> whether

> detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM. I've

> always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and historically

> there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat clearing

> and

> purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese medicine goes

> further in terms of identifying the specific toxin.

>

>

>

> If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other symptoms,

> isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move?

>

 

[Guest guest]

For those of you living in China, are there any current detox fads that you are

seeing in clinics, spas, in popular literature etc.?

 

 

 

Stephen, do you remember the name of the fellow that Arnaud spent time with in

rural China who was doing all the harsh expellent therapy for a variety of

conditions? While it doesn't fit into the standardized TCM model, wouldn't you

call this a version of detoxing?

 

 

 

I would also consider that the use of herbs such as Wuweizi and Danshen based

on a pharmacological understanding that they activate detoxification pathways of

the Liver as more akin to a Naturopathic model of detox than to a pattern based

diagnostic model that is taught in schools here or in a more classical model.

 

 

 

I know that there are some of you have spent time in dermatology clinics in

China, are the pharmacodynamics of herbs in this field?

 

 

 

Ben

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Windows Live™ SkyDrive™: Get 25 GB of free online storage.

http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think the big difference is that CM has the concept of Zheng Qi in which our

way of dealing with Xie is to boost Zheng.

Doug

 

 

, ben zappin <btz23 wrote:

 

> For those of you living in China, are there any current detox fads that you

are seeing in clinics, spas, in popular literature etc.?

>

>

>

> Stephen, do you remember the name of the fellow that Arnaud spent time with in

rural China who was doing all the harsh expellent therapy for a variety of

conditions? While it doesn't fit into the standardized TCM model, wouldn't you

call this a version of detoxing?

>

>

>

> I would also consider that the use of herbs such as Wuweizi and Danshen based

on a pharmacological understanding that they activate detoxification pathways of

the Liver as more akin to a Naturopathic model of detox than to a pattern based

diagnostic model that is taught in schools here or in a more classical model.

>

>

>

> I know that there are some of you have spent time in dermatology clinics in

China, are the pharmacodynamics of herbs in this field?

>

>

>

> Ben

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ben,Michael and all

Wow...never thought this would come up... I'll try to put more thought

into a response later...

but initially

Where to start?

Micheal said:

I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of " not

part

of the model?.

 

Stephen:

Quote?!?

I will look for quotes from the classics to support this... though I

never asserted that any specific quote exists

Bian Zheng Lun Zhi = treatment based on pattern discrimination

to treat otherwise is contradictory to the fundamental tenets that

define Chinese medicine - I don't think more has to be said-

" Detox "

Flushing toxins out of the kidney tissue - Liver detoxification - coffee

enemas - NAS - selenium

All of these seem to be administered on an assumption that intervention

is needed.

1) I don't know of any classical source that sees the organs in this

biomedically defined manner

2) I don't know of any classical source that has a concept of " toxin " as

proposed by detoxifiers...

and misinterpreting " Du " toxin as the same thing would be off base.

3) I would strongly submit that treating based on assumptions and not

patterns is in opposition to Chinese medicine - thus my assertion that

these practices are anti-thetical to CM

 

Detoxing is a concept

this concept doesn't exist in CM

just because we use herbs that purge doesn't mean that this concept ever

existed

however, I am open to learning if someone can quote something from the

classics that supports this idea.

 

Michael said:

Considering that Ayurveda is probably older than TCM and de-toxing or

purification is central to that method

 

Stephen:

Whatever is done in Ayurveda is not relevant. Conflation leads us down a

wrong path.

 

Ben said:

I would also consider that the use of herbs such as Wuweizi and Danshen

based on a pharmacological understanding that they activate

detoxification pathways of the Liver as more akin to a Naturopathic

model of detox than to a pattern based diagnostic model that is taught

in schools here or in a more classical model.

 

Stephen:

Exactly, Ben, just because some medicinal used in Chinese medicine can

be interpreted in another paradigm doesn't mean that said paradigm is

relevant to CM. Well said!

 

Douglas said:

I think the big difference is that CM has the concept of Zheng Qi in

which our way of dealing with Xie is to boost Zheng

 

Stephen:

Bullseye, Douglas, CM is more functional medicine!

 

 

 

Just because something is done is a Spa in China, doesn't make the

procedure bona fide Chinese medicine...no matter who is doing it $$$

 

Before things get heated...

I am not trashing anybody for believing in or practicing " detox " . I am

only asserting that it's in opposition to Chinese medical thinking. Just

because we have herbs that purge doesn't equate the attacking method

with coffee enemas. What is done and why defines our intention and our

practice.

 

Su Wen 82

Qi Bo said:

" Renal parenchyma benefit greatly from periodic flushing much as a sewer

would. However, this thinking is antithetical to our medicine... "

 

Admittedly, this is a rough translation and there are those who

challenge the authenticity of Su Wen 82, but it's a start.

 

keep it light

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:

http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html

[Guest guest]

Michael,

This is an interesting question. Especially since Ayurvedic

medicine has developed such a sophisticated program of complete

'cleansing', i.e. panchakarma. However, I've never been able to find

anything similar to this in my long studies of Chinese medicine.

Using bitter cold medicinals to clear heat or da huang-based

prescriptions don't count in my mind, as they are used in specific

pathological scenarios with very strict criteria. I think the problem

is that naturopathic medicine has a lot of interest in cleansing and

fasting regimens, and in the eyes of the public and often in our

profession, we may be influenced by this particular approach to

medicine/healing. However, I think we do need to be careful in terms

of superimposing this view on Chinese medicine as if it is there when

apparently it is not.

 

 

On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

>

>

> " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of

> the

> role of

> detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model

> and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses.

> I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools

> learning about various methods of general detoxification,

> fasting, etc.

>

> Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are

> antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree

> that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the

> model.

>

> Treatment is always based on patterns....so, we don't have/need

> de-tox

>

> Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early

> studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on

> food is bad for you.

>

> So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it's just not part of

> the model

>

> Stephen Woodley Lac "

>

> I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of

> " not part

> of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly

> is the

> way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is

> probably older

> than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and

> there

> is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder

> whether

> detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM.

> I've

> always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and

> historically

> there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat

> clearing and

> purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese

> medicine goes

> further in terms of identifying the specific toxin.

>

> If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other

> symptoms,

> isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Z'ev, Michael and all,

 

In the new Formulas and Strategies, the authors mention that one of the

indications for the formula Huai Hua San is to treat Zang Du, which they

identify as toxin in the Yin organs, in which " damp-heat collects and clumps in

the intestines and also damages the Blood collaterals.  The turbid  dampness

aspect has a tendency to obstruct the Qi dynamic, leading to stagnation and

stasis of Qi and Blood.  This commonly manifests as dark blood, either mixed in

with the stool or after defacation.... "    

 

Generally in American and European naturopathic medicine the concept of

detoxification seems to be predicated on the liver or the bowels being

overloaded (I hesitate to use the term replete, because that implies a positive

state, and toxification is anything but),  

 

Does it not seems from the above passage that Zang Du, meaning Dampness or

Damp-heat stagnating is exactly what this discussion has been about.

 

Good Shabbos! (or have a great weekend, whichever applies to who is reading

this!)

 

Respectfully,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Fri, 6/12/09, <zrosenbe wrote:

 

 

<zrosenbe

Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

 

Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:22 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Michael,

This is an interesting question. Especially since Ayurvedic

medicine has developed such a sophisticated program of complete

'cleansing', i.e. panchakarma. However, I've never been able to find

anything similar to this in my long studies of Chinese medicine.

Using bitter cold medicinals to clear heat or da huang-based

prescriptions don't count in my mind, as they are used in specific

pathological scenarios with very strict criteria. I think the problem

is that naturopathic medicine has a lot of interest in cleansing and

fasting regimens, and in the eyes of the public and often in our

profession, we may be influenced by this particular approach to

medicine/healing. However, I think we do need to be careful in terms

of superimposing this view on Chinese medicine as if it is there when

apparently it is not.

 

 

On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

 

>

>

> " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of

> the

> role of

> detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model

> and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses.

> I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools

> learning about various methods of general detoxification,

> fasting, etc.

>

> Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are

> antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree

> that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the

> model.

>

> Treatment is always based on patterns.... so, we don't have/need

> de-tox

>

> Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early

> studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on

> food is bad for you.

>

> So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it' s just not part of

> the model

>

> Stephen Woodley Lac "

>

> I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of

> " not part

> of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly

> is the

> way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is

> probably older

> than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and

> there

> is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder

> whether

> detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM.

> I've

> always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and

> historically

> there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat

> clearing and

> purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese

> medicine goes

> further in terms of identifying the specific toxin.

>

> If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other

> symptoms,

> isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move?

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is a very interesting topic to me, as I see so many patients coming in

after seeing other medical modalities like Naturopathic medicine for skin

disorders. Most of the time they have tried several different de-toxifying/

cleansing methods. Perhaps the cleanse involved Milk thistle seeds and

elderberry and involved dietary changes and even fasting. They are told that

their skin problem is because the liver is burdened.

 

Unfortunately the reason these patients have come to see me is because the

" cleanse " didn't do what they came in for, which was to heal their skin.

 

Then a patient tries a focused chinese herbal remedy, based on their " pattern "

and gets results, perhaps even a cure.

 

Does this mean that the chinese herbal formula didn't have a cleansing or liver

de-toxifying effect? It very well may have. Research on individual herbs on Pub

Med tells us so.

 

Perhaps the Chinese didn't use the terminology of cleansing as we associate it

with other healing methods. But to say that a cleansing action isn't happening

would be a mistake. I always like to say to patients that Chinese herbal

medicine works as a very focused and individual type of cleansing. De-toxifying

" pathogens " that need to be cleansed and strengthening body systems that need to

be strengthened. As compared to systems of thought that try to use very general,

one size fits all, approaches.

 

Patients can relate to language that makes sense to them in the paradigm that

there are used to, while still keeping true to the Chinese philosophies.

 

Trevor

[Guest guest]

Hi All,

 

(1) Many Chinese medicinals have actions that protect LV against

toxins. Hepatoprotective Hbs include:

 

Baijiangcao; Baishao; Baizhu; Banyacai; Banzhilian; Biejia; Bulaocao;

Chaihu; Chuanxinlian; Chuipencao; Cilaoya; Dahuang; Daji (Cirsium);

Dangyao; DASUAN; Dazao; Ercha; Ezhu (Guangxi); Fuling; Gancao;

Gouqigen; Gouqizi; Guizhi (Zhi); Heilaohugen; Heshouwu; Hongjingtian;

Huajiao; Huzhang; Jianghuang; Jiaogulan; Jinsitao; Jinyinhua;

Jisongrong; Jixuecao; Kushen; Laoguancao; Lianqiao; Lingzhi;

Longdancao; Luhui; Mayi; Meirenjiaogen; Mohanlian; Mugua; Muxu;

Nuzhenzi; Pugongying; Qinghao; Qingyedan; Qiuguozijinshu; Sanqi;

Shaji; Shandougen; Shechuangzi; Shengjiang; Shengma; Shiliuhua;

Shuifeiji; Shuifeiji; Shuiqin; Tianguadi; Weilingxian; Wenjing;

Wuweizi; Wuzhuyu; Xianggu; Xiangjincai; Xiaoji (Cirsium /

Cephalanoploris); Xiecaogen; Xiheliu; Xiyangshen; Yangjinhua;

Yinchenhao; Yunzhi; Zexie; Zhizi; Zhuling; Zishiying;

 

(2) Other Chinese medicinals have actions that protect KI against

toxins. Renoprotective Hbs include:

 

Ejiao; Leigongteng; Renshen; Tufuling.

 

Indeed, many other Hbs that Tone KI and / or act as Diuretics, may

have Renoprotective effects also.

 

(3) Some medicinals have BOTH actions. Examples of Dual

Hepatoprotective + Renoprotective Hbs include:

Danggui; Dahuang; Danshen; Dongchongxiacao; Gegen; Huangqi; Lurong;

 

As LV and KI are the two main rogans involved in detox, it could be

argued that a selection of Hbs from List 3, possibly fortified with 1-

2 herbs from List 1 + 2, could be used as a general Detox Formula.

 

Comments?

 

Best regards,

 

[Guest guest]

Very simply, Phil,

All of these terms and interpretations (hepatoprotective,

renoprotective), are modern physiological concepts of biomedicine

based on pharmacological understandings or interpretations of Chinese

medicinals. They are entirely separate from Chinese medical theory

and data of many centuries. In other words, the Chinese shen/kidney

is not an exact equivalent of the modern physiological kidney, the

Chinese gan/liver is not an exact physiological equivalent of the

modern liver. The Chinese were speaking of visceral systems of

function with some overlaps but not equivalents of modern physiology,

and it is a mistake, in my opinion, to limit the Chinese medical

tradition to these intrepretations.

 

 

 

 

On Jun 13, 2009, at 12:26 PM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi All,

>

> (1) Many Chinese medicinals have actions that protect LV against

> toxins. Hepatoprotective Hbs include:

>

> Baijiangcao; Baishao; Baizhu; Banyacai; Banzhilian; Biejia; Bulaocao;

> Chaihu; Chuanxinlian; Chuipencao; Cilaoya; Dahuang; Daji (Cirsium);

> Dangyao; DASUAN; Dazao; Ercha; Ezhu (Guangxi); Fuling; Gancao;

> Gouqigen; Gouqizi; Guizhi (Zhi); Heilaohugen; Heshouwu; Hongjingtian;

> Huajiao; Huzhang; Jianghuang; Jiaogulan; Jinsitao; Jinyinhua;

> Jisongrong; Jixuecao; Kushen; Laoguancao; Lianqiao; Lingzhi;

> Longdancao; Luhui; Mayi; Meirenjiaogen; Mohanlian; Mugua; Muxu;

> Nuzhenzi; Pugongying; Qinghao; Qingyedan; Qiuguozijinshu; Sanqi;

> Shaji; Shandougen; Shechuangzi; Shengjiang; Shengma; Shiliuhua;

> Shuifeiji; Shuifeiji; Shuiqin; Tianguadi; Weilingxian; Wenjing;

> Wuweizi; Wuzhuyu; Xianggu; Xiangjincai; Xiaoji (Cirsium /

> Cephalanoploris); Xiecaogen; Xiheliu; Xiyangshen; Yangjinhua;

> Yinchenhao; Yunzhi; Zexie; Zhizi; Zhuling; Zishiying;

>

> (2) Other Chinese medicinals have actions that protect KI against

> toxins. Renoprotective Hbs include:

>

> Ejiao; Leigongteng; Renshen; Tufuling.

>

> Indeed, many other Hbs that Tone KI and / or act as Diuretics, may

> have Renoprotective effects also.

>

> (3) Some medicinals have BOTH actions. Examples of Dual

> Hepatoprotective + Renoprotective Hbs include:

> Danggui; Dahuang; Danshen; Dongchongxiacao; Gegen; Huangqi; Lurong;

>

> As LV and KI are the two main rogans involved in detox, it could be

> argued that a selection of Hbs from List 3, possibly fortified with 1-

> 2 herbs from List 1 + 2, could be used as a general Detox Formula.

>

> Comments?

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

I think the main dividing line is that what you are describing

with huai hua san is a very specific pattern/condition, with a

specific treatment, with specific diagnostic parameters and a

relatively short length of treatment time. This is very different

than the general naturopathic modality of detoxification, which is a

more generalized 'organ cleansing' not necessarily related to a

pattern diagnosis and treatment plan. Looking again at Stephen

Woodley's example of liver detoxification for skin disease, this

implies a physiological connection between liver toxicity (and what

specifically do we mean by this?) and a manifestation of skin

disease. But this is only one possible cause of a skin condition, and

there are many skin diseases with multiple manifestations, causes and

patterns in Chinese medicine, and many liver disharmonies, of which a

specific set MAY contribute to skin disorders.

 

Again, we are discussing apples and oranges. Naturopathic

medicine has its own specific criteria based on physiological analysis

of the human organism, Chinese medicine has its own criteria of

visceral systems, diagnosis, and pattern differentiation. Too often

we superimpose these ideas on what Chinese medicine has to say.

 

 

On Jun 12, 2009, at 7:19 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear Z'ev, Michael and all,

>

> In the new Formulas and Strategies, the authors mention that one of

> the indications for the formula Huai Hua San is to treat Zang Du,

> which they identify as toxin in the Yin organs, in which " damp-heat

> collects and clumps in the intestines and also damages the Blood

> collaterals. The turbid dampness aspect has a tendency to obstruct

> the Qi dynamic, leading to stagnation and stasis of Qi and Blood.

> This commonly manifests as dark blood, either mixed in with the

> stool or after defacation.... "

>

> Generally in American and European naturopathic medicine the concept

> of detoxification seems to be predicated on the liver or the bowels

> being overloaded (I hesitate to use the term replete, because that

> implies a positive state, and toxification is anything but),

>

> Does it not seems from the above passage that Zang Du, meaning

> Dampness or

> Damp-heat stagnating is exactly what this discussion has been about.

>

> Good Shabbos! (or have a great weekend, whichever applies to who is

> reading this!)

>

> Respectfully,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --- On Fri, 6/12/09, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> <zrosenbe

> Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

>

> Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:22 PM

>

> Michael,

> This is an interesting question. Especially since Ayurvedic

> medicine has developed such a sophisticated program of complete

> 'cleansing', i.e. panchakarma. However, I've never been able to find

> anything similar to this in my long studies of Chinese medicine.

> Using bitter cold medicinals to clear heat or da huang-based

> prescriptions don't count in my mind, as they are used in specific

> pathological scenarios with very strict criteria. I think the problem

> is that naturopathic medicine has a lot of interest in cleansing and

> fasting regimens, and in the eyes of the public and often in our

> profession, we may be influenced by this particular approach to

> medicine/healing. However, I think we do need to be careful in terms

> of superimposing this view on Chinese medicine as if it is there when

> apparently it is not.

>

>

> On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of

> > the

> > role of

> > detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model

> > and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses.

> > I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools

> > learning about various methods of general detoxification,

> > fasting, etc.

> >

> > Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are

> > antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree

> > that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the

> > model.

> >

> > Treatment is always based on patterns.... so, we don't have/need

> > de-tox

> >

> > Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early

> > studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on

> > food is bad for you.

> >

> > So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it' s just not part of

> > the model

> >

> > Stephen Woodley Lac "

> >

> > I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of

> > " not part

> > of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly

> > is the

> > way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is

> > probably older

> > than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and

> > there

> > is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder

> > whether

> > detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM.

> > I've

> > always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and

> > historically

> > there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat

> > clearing and

> > purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese

> > medicine goes

> > further in terms of identifying the specific toxin.

> >

> > If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other

> > symptoms,

> > isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Right on target. Toxicity as a concept in naturopathic medicine is

much broader, and more generalized. It is not interchangeable with du/

toxin of Chinese medicine.

 

 

On Jun 12, 2009, at 2:04 PM, stephen woodley wrote:

 

> 1) I don't know of any classical source that sees the organs in this

> biomedically defined manner

> 2) I don't know of any classical source that has a concept of

> " toxin " as

> proposed by detoxifiers...

> and misinterpreting " Du " toxin as the same thing would be off base.

> 3) I would strongly submit that treating based on assumptions and not

> patterns is in opposition to Chinese medicine - thus my assertion that

> these practices are anti-thetical to CM

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I would agree with you, Z'ev, and the point you mention is a major problem that

I have with both naturopathic/eclectic medicine and western Biomedicine as

well:  their lack of diagnostic and pattern specificity.    The observation  I

was making was that it seemed to me that damp heat complicated by stasis creates

a dynamic of toxicity, but as you say the approach we would take, to clear heat,

dry dampness and move the blood to disinhibit stasis, though yielding a net

result of detoxification, should not be viewed as detoxing, an

oversimplification.  Frequently,  I have patients who ask me my opinion of

whether they should go through a liver or gall bladder detox, or whether they

should consider colonic irrigation therapy.   On the whole they are weak,

vacuous patients, and I tell them that all the therapies will do, in their case,

is further deplete them.  I had a patient last week who felt that he had

parasites and wanted to detox. 

Number one, I told him to order a Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis(CDSA),

and then we could talk further.  If one suspects liver toxicity, again, first I

would suggest checking the enzymatic levels of  liver function test.  If they

are high or in the high normal range, I would consider how they corroborate with

tongue, pulses, eyes and nails. 

 

 I believe that we essentially agree, but I would add that  even though we are

practicing Chinese medicine, it behooves us to utilize all useful and accurate

tools that are available to us diagnostically.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Sat, 6/13/09, <zrosenbe wrote:

 

 

<zrosenbe

Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

 

Saturday, June 13, 2009, 10:37 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yehuda,

I think the main dividing line is that what you are describing

with huai hua san is a very specific pattern/condition, with a

specific treatment, with specific diagnostic parameters and a

relatively short length of treatment time. This is very different

than the general naturopathic modality of detoxification, which is a

more generalized 'organ cleansing' not necessarily related to a

pattern diagnosis and treatment plan. Looking again at Stephen

Woodley's example of liver detoxification for skin disease, this

implies a physiological connection between liver toxicity (and what

specifically do we mean by this?) and a manifestation of skin

disease. But this is only one possible cause of a skin condition, and

there are many skin diseases with multiple manifestations, causes and

patterns in Chinese medicine, and many liver disharmonies, of which a

specific set MAY contribute to skin disorders.

 

Again, we are discussing apples and oranges. Naturopathic

medicine has its own specific criteria based on physiological analysis

of the human organism, Chinese medicine has its own criteria of

visceral systems, diagnosis, and pattern differentiation. Too often

we superimpose these ideas on what Chinese medicine has to say.

 

 

On Jun 12, 2009, at 7:19 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear Z'ev, Michael and all,

>

> In the new Formulas and Strategies, the authors mention that one of

> the indications for the formula Huai Hua San is to treat Zang Du,

> which they identify as toxin in the Yin organs, in which " damp-heat

> collects and clumps in the intestines and also damages the Blood

> collaterals. The turbid dampness aspect has a tendency to obstruct

> the Qi dynamic, leading to stagnation and stasis of Qi and Blood.

> This commonly manifests as dark blood, either mixed in with the

> stool or after defacation.. .. "

>

> Generally in American and European naturopathic medicine the concept

> of detoxification seems to be predicated on the liver or the bowels

> being overloaded (I hesitate to use the term replete, because that

> implies a positive state, and toxification is anything but),

>

> Does it not seems from the above passage that Zang Du, meaning

> Dampness or

> Damp-heat stagnating is exactly what this discussion has been about.

>

> Good Shabbos! (or have a great weekend, whichever applies to who is

> reading this!)

>

> Respectfully,

>

>

>

>

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

>

>

>

> --- On Fri, 6/12/09, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote:

>

> <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

> Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

>

> Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:22 PM

>

> Michael,

> This is an interesting question. Especially since Ayurvedic

> medicine has developed such a sophisticated program of complete

> 'cleansing', i.e. panchakarma. However, I've never been able to find

> anything similar to this in my long studies of Chinese medicine.

> Using bitter cold medicinals to clear heat or da huang-based

> prescriptions don't count in my mind, as they are used in specific

> pathological scenarios with very strict criteria. I think the problem

> is that naturopathic medicine has a lot of interest in cleansing and

> fasting regimens, and in the eyes of the public and often in our

> profession, we may be influenced by this particular approach to

> medicine/healing. However, I think we do need to be careful in terms

> of superimposing this view on Chinese medicine as if it is there when

> apparently it is not.

>

>

> On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little concept of

> > the

> > role of

> > detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model

> > and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses.

> > I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools

> > learning about various methods of general detoxification,

> > fasting, etc.

> >

> > Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are

> > antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree

> > that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the

> > model.

> >

> > Treatment is always based on patterns.... so, we don't have/need

> > de-tox

> >

> > Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early

> > studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on

> > food is bad for you.

> >

> > So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it' s just not part of

> > the model

> >

> > Stephen Woodley Lac "

> >

> > I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of

> > " not part

> > of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it certainly

> > is the

> > way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is

> > probably older

> > than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method and

> > there

> > is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I wonder

> > whether

> > detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary TCM.

> > I've

> > always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and

> > historically

> > there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat

> > clearing and

> > purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese

> > medicine goes

> > further in terms of identifying the specific toxin.

> >

> > If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other

> > symptoms,

> > isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Of the 8 herbal treatment methods... pg. xxvi (Scheid, Bensky Formulas 2nd

edition)

 

sweating (han fa) (not a form of detox?) " ... so that the pores open

and *pathogenic

influences* in the exterior or other superficial levels of the body can be

released with the sweat "

 

vomiting (tu fa) (not a form of detox?) " ... so that phlegm, stagnant food

or *toxic matter* stuck in the throat, chest, or stomach cavity can be

expelled through the mouth "

 

Draining downward (xia fa) (not a form of detox?) " ...to cleanse the bowels

and expels *pathogens with form* through the rectum "

 

Clearing (qing fa) (not a form of detox?) " ...to eliminate heat, fire and

their associated *toxicity* from the body "

 

According to this text, it seems pretty clear that Chinese

herbalism/formulaism has these detoxifying functions (maybe not from the

quoted classics... the ones listed in the 2nd edition Formulas and

Strategies from the Nei jing do not make this clear), but through the

applications of the herbs and formulas through the centuries.

 

For instance, the vomiting method (tu fa) was used specifically for the

instance of a patient ingestion poisons.

 

Also, If we consider parasites (gu) a toxin, than the Reducing (xiao fa)

method would also apply as this method is used for clumping, accumulations

and parasitic infestation.

 

If we consider epidemic infestation as toxins, than the sweating method

(han fa) and the clearing method (qing fa) would also be applicable.

 

Is there a history of colonics in Chinese medicine?

 

K

[Guest guest]

I am not sure all the old Eclectics called it detoxification. Maybe purging, but

there are similar readings in Chinese medicine. A Dr. Zhang (long time ago, I

think) talked about ways to detoxify. The old forms of " vomit, sweat and poop " ,

used today in western herbal medicine. They had no idea of homeopathy, so the

detoxification, or draining, as many call it would have to be understood from

its effects on a diagnosed patient rather than from direct experience of the

material. 

 

David Molony

 

On Jun 14, 2009, at 8:37:45 PM, " " <zrosenbe wrote:

 

 

I also don't agree that modern Chinese medicine has the concept of 

'detoxification', at least not in the sense of modern naturopathic 

medicine.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Z'ev, Yehuda, et all,

 

This is the beauty of Chinese medicine. That by focusing on the pattern as we

see manifesting in a patient, de-toxification may inevitably happen. The main

thing is that we need to stay focused on the main issues that are manifesting

and treat them. If a patient comes in for a skin problem, then treat it and

look for change. If we know that they have elevated ALT/AST then add some Hu

Zhang or Chai Hu, particularly if the herb fits the pattern.

 

I just don't understand how some therapists can give advice, in the form of

offering cleansing techniques, still see no change after several months in the

patients main complaint, but still tell them that it is because there is deeper

levels of " toxicity " in them, encouraging a patient to keep going on there

regime.

 

How long does a patient need to follow a regime, cleansing or otherwise, until

they see a change in there condition? For me, for most issues, if I see no

change after say 8 weeks, then I am pretty suspicious of my own approach.

Perhaps some aggressive forms of Cancer would be longer. My point is that we as

practitioners should have some sort of grasp on a time frame for changes to

occur, so as to judge the effectiveness of our treatment and accuracy of our

diagnosis.

 

As I mentioned in the past, my wife had widespread head to toe eczema for most

of her life. She had seen many therapists in the past and was told that she was

allergic to everything. Different, famous, naturopathic doctors told her that

she needed to cleanse out the heavy metals, pesticides, chemicals, etc. from her

body in order for her to see change. Well she tried their advice. Tried cleanse

after cleanse after chelation therapy, after extreme food restrictive diets.

She even tried a 40 day juice and soup broth cleanse.

 

Well guess what? Her skin NEVER improved. Not even once. Her and her family

were just so desperate for her to have relief that they were willing to try

these cleansing approaches for many years. A very costly venture to say the

least, particularly since no change was experienced.

 

Then three months on Chinese herbal remedies, a few dietary adjustments with no

bread and sugar and sweet fruits, and her eczema is gone. 7 years later it is

still gone. 7 years later and she can actually eat food, like dairy that used

to put her in the hospital with anaphalexis, and she is fine. Healthy!

 

Again, by treating her Chinese medical pattern in a well crafted focused way, my

wife is basically cured of a very stubborn ailment. Did a cleansing action

happen along the way? Perhaps so, but it certainly was not the main approach.

 

I see people like my wife come into the clinic all the time, who are told there

issue is due to some heavy metal or some pesticide or liver fluke or yaddy yadda

yadda.... Perhaps there is an element of truth to this. But show me a person on

planet earth who does not have this affliction?? I truly believe that our bodies

will figure out ways to deal with burdens that it has upon it, particularly if

we focus a treatment on pattern discrimination.

 

I had a couple come into the clinic last week for fertility issues. They had

been trying to conceive for the past 4 years, 2 of those years were spent seeing

a naturopathic doctor who had them on all kinds of vigorous cleansing regimes.

They were honest in saying that it cost thousands. They came to me because they

were feeling like how much cleansing can they do? Perhaps there was another way

of looking at their journey.

 

Whenever I see patients like this, the first thing I ask is, " Great, you saw

such and such a practitioner for such and such amount of time. Tell me what

changes did you notice? " . I educate them that in Chinese medicine, fertility

optimization is based on 2 things- General health and the woman's menstrual

cycle, and that these are the two areas that I look for change to tell me that

their ability to carry a pregnancy is enhanced. Now this couple told me that

they didn't notice any change in these areas.

 

In fact, the woman still had menses pain, still had a delayed cycle, still had

lots of PMS- which included a lot of ACNE on her face, chest, and back. I would

have thought that the so called " cleansing " would have helped at least her acne.

But no.

 

Again, cleansing and de-toxifying techniques as they are practiced today by

Natural Doctors, may very well serve a purpose. I would just hope that if a

patient comes in to see them and gives them a large portion of their earnings,

that if it doesn't work and the main issues are not better, they have the

integrity to say that their regime didn't work and that they may want to try

:-)

 

Trevor

[Guest guest]

Agreed,

But when using eclectic methods, we must be cautious not to

superimpose the 'clinical gaze' of one system on another.

 

 

On Jun 14, 2009, at 1:32 AM, yehuda frischman wrote:

 

>

>

>

> I believe that we essentially agree, but I would add that even

> though we are practicing Chinese medicine, it behooves us to utilize

> all useful and accurate tools that are available to us diagnostically.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> --- On Sat, 6/13/09, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> <zrosenbe

> Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

>

> Saturday, June 13, 2009, 10:37 PM

>

> Yehuda,

> I think the main dividing line is that what you are describing

> with huai hua san is a very specific pattern/condition, with a

> specific treatment, with specific diagnostic parameters and a

> relatively short length of treatment time. This is very different

> than the general naturopathic modality of detoxification, which is a

> more generalized 'organ cleansing' not necessarily related to a

> pattern diagnosis and treatment plan. Looking again at Stephen

> Woodley's example of liver detoxification for skin disease, this

> implies a physiological connection between liver toxicity (and what

> specifically do we mean by this?) and a manifestation of skin

> disease. But this is only one possible cause of a skin condition, and

> there are many skin diseases with multiple manifestations, causes and

> patterns in Chinese medicine, and many liver disharmonies, of which a

> specific set MAY contribute to skin disorders.

>

> Again, we are discussing apples and oranges. Naturopathic

> medicine has its own specific criteria based on physiological analysis

> of the human organism, Chinese medicine has its own criteria of

> visceral systems, diagnosis, and pattern differentiation. Too often

> we superimpose these ideas on what Chinese medicine has to say.

>

>

> On Jun 12, 2009, at 7:19 PM, yehuda frischman wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Dear Z'ev, Michael and all,

> >

> > In the new Formulas and Strategies, the authors mention that one of

> > the indications for the formula Huai Hua San is to treat Zang Du,

> > which they identify as toxin in the Yin organs, in which " damp-heat

> > collects and clumps in the intestines and also damages the Blood

> > collaterals. The turbid dampness aspect has a tendency to obstruct

> > the Qi dynamic, leading to stagnation and stasis of Qi and Blood.

> > This commonly manifests as dark blood, either mixed in with the

> > stool or after defacation.. .. "

> >

> > Generally in American and European naturopathic medicine the concept

> > of detoxification seems to be predicated on the liver or the bowels

> > being overloaded (I hesitate to use the term replete, because that

> > implies a positive state, and toxification is anything but),

> >

> > Does it not seems from the above passage that Zang Du, meaning

> > Dampness or

> > Damp-heat stagnating is exactly what this discussion has been about.

> >

> > Good Shabbos! (or have a great weekend, whichever applies to who is

> > reading this!)

> >

> > Respectfully,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. net

> > www.traditionaljewi shmedicine. blogspot. com

> >

> >

> >

> > --- On Fri, 6/12/09, <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com> wrote:

> >

> > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

> > Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

> >

> > Friday, June 12, 2009, 4:22 PM

> >

> > Michael,

> > This is an interesting question. Especially since Ayurvedic

> > medicine has developed such a sophisticated program of complete

> > 'cleansing', i.e. panchakarma. However, I've never been able to find

> > anything similar to this in my long studies of Chinese medicine.

> > Using bitter cold medicinals to clear heat or da huang-based

> > prescriptions don't count in my mind, as they are used in specific

> > pathological scenarios with very strict criteria. I think the

> problem

> > is that naturopathic medicine has a lot of interest in cleansing and

> > fasting regimens, and in the eyes of the public and often in our

> > profession, we may be influenced by this particular approach to

> > medicine/healing. However, I think we do need to be careful in terms

> > of superimposing this view on Chinese medicine as if it is there

> when

> > apparently it is not.

> >

> >

> > On Jun 11, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Michael Tierra wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > " Michael said -- TCM, at least as it is taught has little

> concept of

> > > the

> > > role of

> > > detoxification. Most of TCM is framed around a pathological model

> > > and that is indeed both one of its strengths and weaknesses.

> > > I have yet to hear of students graduating from TCM schools

> > > learning about various methods of general detoxification,

> > > fasting, etc.

> > >

> > > Stephen: We should keep in mind that " de-toxing " and fasting are

> > > antithetical to Chinese medicine view of health. I wouldn't agree

> > > that we should learn or practice this as it's not part of the

> > > model.

> > >

> > > Treatment is always based on patterns.... so, we don't have/need

> > > de-tox

> > >

> > > Can't remember the chapter...but we all remember from our early

> > > studies the line about " 1/2 a day without food... " missing out on

> > > food is bad for you.

> > >

> > > So, this isn't a deficiency of schools...it' s just not part of

> > > the model

> > >

> > > Stephen Woodley Lac "

> > >

> > > I'm curious where the quote about de-toxing being antithetical of

> > > " not part

> > > of the model?. I've never read or heard it as such but it

> certainly

> > > is the

> > > way TCM is taught and practiced. Considering that Ayurveda is

> > > probably older

> > > than TCM and de-toxing or purification is central to that method

> and

> > > there

> > > is undoubtedly a close relationship between the two systems I

> wonder

> > > whether

> > > detoxing is simply sublimated within the system of contemporary

> TCM.

> > > I've

> > > always seen " Clearing heat " as essentially detoxification and

> > > historically

> > > there was an entire school (the attacking school) based on heat

> > > clearing and

> > > purgatives. Clearing evils from the body is detoxing. Chinese

> > > medicine goes

> > > further in terms of identifying the specific toxin.

> > >

> > > If a patient presents with constipation, but complains of other

> > > symptoms,

> > > isn't the first order to focus on getting the bowels to move?

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Are,

 

 

 

How are you defining hepatoprotective and how do you verify this in your

patient population?

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Are Thoresen

Sunday, June 14, 2009 2:00 PM

 

SV: Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Ben,

 

I have used it for many years internally, to lots of patients, and I am

amazed by the hepatoprotective abilities of this plant.

 

So, it is just based on my clinical experience.

 

Are

 

Are,

 

You're going to raise some hackles w/ the Western herb folks here by saying

Symphytum officianale is hepatoprotective. I think the best article to brush

up on the controversy around the Comfrey and pyrrolizidine alkaloids, as

well as the occurance of these compounds in Chinese herbs and their

potentially hepatotoxic effect is here: http://www.itmonlin

<http://www.itmonline.org/arts/pas.htm> e.org/arts/pas.htm

 

Having a real love for the plant, I use it topically all the time, but I've

never heard or read of it being hepatoprotective. Would you care to divulge

what sources have informed you use of this plant and what you've seen

clinically to confirm your belief.

 

Respectfully,

 

Ben Zappin

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda said: I would agree with you, Z'ev, and the point you mention is a

major problem that I have with both naturopathic/eclectic medicine and

western Biomedicine as well: their lack of diagnostic and pattern

specificity.

 

Thomas:

Yehuda, lumping Naturopathic and Eclectic medicine together is a mistake,

AND suggesting that Eclectic medicine lacked diagnostic and pattern

specificity is an ignorant statement. I suggest you get yourself a copy of

Specific Diagnosis by Prof. Scudder. Eclectic medicine did an enormous

amount of refining of diagnostics and treatment during its very short

life-span, and I would suggest that if it not for Flexnor Report (financed

by Carnegie because of his interest in supporting the AMA, which was

prescribing drugs from companies that he had financial interest in) we would

likely have a system of medicine that although different from Chinese

medicine would likely be its rival when considering outcomes alone.

Furthermore, some of the language used by the Eclectics and the

Physiomedicalists (a different system which also sprang to life in 19th

Century America) was remarkably similar to the ways we think of plants and

the human system in CM.

 

Naturopathic medicine is the great borrower, although it started in Germany,

in America it has become a conglomerate of many different systems, often

offering little focus when practitioners find difficulty resolving illness

presented to them by their patients. I don't think it is a deficiency of the

system as much as a deficiency of education and the individual

practitioners.

 

My Two Cents (or Fen),

Thomas

 

 

 

Beijing, China

Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide "

Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi All, & Z'ev,

 

Z'ev wrote:

> Very simply, Phil, All these terms & interpretations (hepatoprotective,

> renoprotective), are modern physiological concepts of biomedicine based

> on pharmacological understandings or interpretations of Chinese

> medicinals. They are entirely separate from Chinese medical theory and

> data of many centuries. In other words, the Chinese shen/kidney is not

> an exact equivalent of the modern physiological kidney, the Chinese

> gan/liver is not an exact physiological equivalent of the modern liver ...

 

Z'ev, with respect, I know that ...TCM developed in its own place and

time. IMO, we must NOT tie ourselves to theories and practices that

are centuries old. Medicine moves on daily. IMO, we should use the

best principles and theories from all useful sources, including TCM

and WM.

 

Z'ev, IMO such thinking (combination of TCM herbal data + theory with

Biomedical data and theory) is an ADVANCE (not a hindrance or

negation) on BOTH systems. IMO, though TCM may not have had this

concept of detox, modern Chinese and Kampo medicine clearly have it.

 

My concept of detox is NOT to use Clear Heat + Resolve Toxin herbs to

attack Heat and Toxin directly, but rather to activate the body's

main detox and excretion processes.

 

Thus, depending on the main organs affected and the main SSs, I would

aim to Tone / Nourish LV-KI (boost LV-KI metabolism), Rectify (Tone /

Move) Qi-Xue, Nourish Bone / Marrow, enhance sweating, boost the

immune system, etc. If indicated, some herbs to Clear Heat + Resolve

Toxin might be added. In the case of Yinxu Heat (for example in men

after surgical or chemical castration), one might add herbs to Tone

YIn, etc.

 

The detox protocol in individual cases also would address key signs,

like insomnia, hot flashes, anorexia, emesis, hair loss, leucopenia /

anaemia etc. Are understood this.

 

As examples, let us consider the use of TCM in two areas that clearly

require detox, or help the body to cope with exogenous toxins:

 

(1) to help cancer patients to cope with cytotoxic chemotherapy,

and

(2) to help someone to sober up after excessive alcohol intake

 

(1) For a good overview of herbal support during / after cytotoxic

chemotherapy, see:

http://www.shen-nong.com/eng/exam/specialties_cancerchemotherapy.html

 

(2) Hepatoprotective herbs help LV to withstand stressed metabolism

of hepatotoxins, such as alcohol, CCl4, etc. Several research papers

confirm the effects of such herbs on alcohol-induced impairment of LV

metabolism. See: http://tinyurl.com/m7awjo

 

For example, Renshen-Rx Ginseng " concentrated resin " has marked

effects on alcohol metabolism, to which I can attest from personal

experience. It clears a hangover very fast. For experimental data,

see http://tinyurl.com/lch8xo

 

PS: IMO, Are was not recommending HERBAL (high) oral doses of

Symphytum to protect LV. Its pyrridolizine alkaloids are well known

to be highly hepatotoxic. Indeed Symphytum toxicity has caused severe

LV damage and many deaths in humans and animals.

 

In homeopathic theory, however, substances that CAUSE hepatotoxicity

can be used in HOMEOPATHIC DILUTIONS (minute doses) to TREAT symptom

patterns that RESEMBLE hepatotoxicity. Symphytum C6 or C30 might be

useful here.

 

Comments, Are?

 

Best regards,

 

[Guest guest]

Thomas,

I agree with you about Eclectic medicine. It is the great lost

tradition in the West, and I was able to get Scudder's works through

Michael Moore years ago. It was very interesting to see the patterns

and diagnostics Flexner developed for the herbal tinctures he used. . .

 

 

On Jun 14, 2009, at 4:09 PM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Yehuda said: I would agree with you, Z'ev, and the point you mention

> is a

> major problem that I have with both naturopathic/eclectic medicine and

> western Biomedicine as well: their lack of diagnostic and pattern

> specificity.

>

> Thomas:

> Yehuda, lumping Naturopathic and Eclectic medicine together is a

> mistake,

> AND suggesting that Eclectic medicine lacked diagnostic and pattern

> specificity is an ignorant statement. I suggest you get yourself a

> copy of

> Specific Diagnosis by Prof. Scudder. Eclectic medicine did an enormous

> amount of refining of diagnostics and treatment during its very short

> life-span, and I would suggest that if it not for Flexnor Report

> (financed

> by Carnegie because of his interest in supporting the AMA, which was

> prescribing drugs from companies that he had financial interest in)

> we would

> likely have a system of medicine that although different from Chinese

> medicine would likely be its rival when considering outcomes alone.

> Furthermore, some of the language used by the Eclectics and the

> Physiomedicalists (a different system which also sprang to life in

> 19th

> Century America) was remarkably similar to the ways we think of

> plants and

> the human system in CM.

>

> Naturopathic medicine is the great borrower, although it started in

> Germany,

> in America it has become a conglomerate of many different systems,

> often

> offering little focus when practitioners find difficulty resolving

> illness

> presented to them by their patients. I don't think it is a

> deficiency of the

> system as much as a deficiency of education and the individual

> practitioners.

>

> My Two Cents (or Fen),

> Thomas

>

>

> Beijing, China

> Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

> Practitioners Guide "

> Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil,

I strongly disagree. Chinese medicine is not a past tense

concern, and continues to develop from within its own tradition.

There is no problem accessing biomedical data, but it must be done in

a way that does not compromise Chinese medical theories, which are not

primarily physiological/biological but based on patterns and

transformations in time. Biomedicine itself has changed little from

its origins, it is still based on germ theory, anatomy and physiology,

chemistry and biology, and still relies on drugs and surgery as main

modalities. Let's not make the mistake and think that Chinese

medicine is 'old' and biomedicine is 'new'.

 

I also don't agree that modern Chinese medicine has the concept of

'detoxification', at least not in the sense of modern naturopathic

medicine.

 

 

 

On Jun 14, 2009, at 4:43 PM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi All, & Z'ev,

>

>

> Z'ev, with respect, I know that ...TCM developed in its own place and

> time. IMO, we must NOT tie ourselves to theories and practices that

> are centuries old. Medicine moves on daily. IMO, we should use the

> best principles and theories from all useful sources, including TCM

> and WM.

>

> Z'ev, IMO such thinking (combination of TCM herbal data + theory with

> Biomedical data and theory) is an ADVANCE (not a hindrance or

> negation) on BOTH systems. IMO, though TCM may not have had this

> concept of detox, modern Chinese and Kampo medicine clearly have it.

>

> My concept of detox is NOT to use Clear Heat + Resolve Toxin herbs to

> attack Heat and Toxin directly, but rather to activate the body's

> main detox and excretion processes.

>

> Thus, depending on the main organs affected and the main SSs, I would

> aim to Tone / Nourish LV-KI (boost LV-KI metabolism), Rectify (Tone /

> Move) Qi-Xue, Nourish Bone / Marrow, enhance sweating, boost the

> immune system, etc. If indicated, some herbs to Clear Heat + Resolve

> Toxin might be added. In the case of Yinxu Heat (for example in men

> after surgical or chemical castration), one might add herbs to Tone

> YIn, etc.

>

> The detox protocol in individual cases also would address key signs,

> like insomnia, hot flashes, anorexia, emesis, hair loss, leucopenia /

> anaemia etc. Are understood this.

>

> As examples, let us consider the use of TCM in two areas that clearly

> require detox, or help the body to cope with exogenous toxins:

>

> (1) to help cancer patients to cope with cytotoxic chemotherapy,

> and

> (2) to help someone to sober up after excessive alcohol intake

>

> (1) For a good overview of herbal support during / after cytotoxic

> chemotherapy, see:

> http://www.shen-nong.com/eng/exam/specialties_cancerchemotherapy.html

>

> (2) Hepatoprotective herbs help LV to withstand stressed metabolism

> of hepatotoxins, such as alcohol, CCl4, etc. Several research papers

> confirm the effects of such herbs on alcohol-induced impairment of LV

> metabolism. See: http://tinyurl.com/m7awjo

>

>

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the clarification, Thomas.  It was my impression that the school

of eclectic medicine was perpetuated by the likes of Jethroe Kloss and Dr. John

Christopher, both of which seemed to me to be very similar to what I know of

Naturopathy.   I had heard the story from   100 some odd years ago about  Dale

Carnegie underwriting a study (as you say it was the Flexnor report)  to examine

the efficacy of different prevailing schools of medicine, what we now call

Western biomedicine, the eclectics, the osteopaths and the homeopaths, and that

he  came to the conclusion that only western  " scientific " biomedicine had any

value.  Their medical schools got the big bucks most of the rest went under,

 and the rest was history--until in the last 25 years or so, people in larger

numbers started realizing that other medicine do heal and that Western medicine

is often unable to treat successfully. 

 

I was unfamiliar with Scudder's " Specific Diagnosis " but have heard very good

things about King's   " American Dispensatory " and the writings of Dr. John Uri

Lloyd.  Can you elaborate more about the theories and  methodologies and

clinical practices of  the eclectics, and how perhaps their legacy can be

reawakened? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- On Sun, 6/14/09, wrote:

 

 

 

Re: Detoxing in TCM -- does it exist?

 

Sunday, June 14, 2009, 4:09 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yehuda said: I would agree with you, Z'ev, and the point you mention is a

major problem that I have with both naturopathic/ eclectic medicine and

western Biomedicine as well: their lack of diagnostic and pattern

specificity.

 

Thomas:

Yehuda, lumping Naturopathic and Eclectic medicine together is a mistake,

AND suggesting that Eclectic medicine lacked diagnostic and pattern

specificity is an ignorant statement. I suggest you get yourself a copy of

Specific Diagnosis by Prof. Scudder. Eclectic medicine did an enormous

amount of refining of diagnostics and treatment during its very short

life-span, and I would suggest that if it not for Flexnor Report (financed

by Carnegie because of his interest in supporting the AMA, which was

prescribing drugs from companies that he had financial interest in) we would

likely have a system of medicine that although different from Chinese

medicine would likely be its rival when considering outcomes alone.

Furthermore, some of the language used by the Eclectics and the

Physiomedicalists (a different system which also sprang to life in 19th

Century America) was remarkably similar to the ways we think of plants and

the human system in CM.

 

Naturopathic medicine is the great borrower, although it started in Germany,

in America it has become a conglomerate of many different systems, often

offering little focus when practitioners find difficulty resolving illness

presented to them by their patients. I don't think it is a deficiency of the

system as much as a deficiency of education and the individual

practitioners.

 

My Two Cents (or Fen),

Thomas

 

 

Beijing, China

Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide "

Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs. blogspot. com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Z'ev,

 

Of course you realize that you mispoke/typed below, but for those who do not

know, Flexnor authored a report that brought down herbal medicine in the US

in the early 20th Century. Scudder's work, along with the work of others, of

that period stands as some of the best work ever done in the field of herbal

medicine, anywhere.

 

Thomas, I agree with you about Eclectic medicine. It is the great lost

tradition in the West, and I was able to get Scudder's works through

Michael Moore years ago. It was very interesting to see the patterns

and diagnostics Flexner developed for the herbal tinctures he used. . .

 

 

Thomas

 

 

Beijing, China

Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide "

Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Odd typo indeed! I meant Scudder, of course. .

 

 

Z'ev

 

On Jun 16, 2009, at 8:20 AM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear Z'ev,

>

> Of course you realize that you mispoke/typed below, but for those

> who do not

> know, Flexnor authored a report that brought down herbal medicine in

> the US

> in the early 20th Century. Scudder's work, along with the work of

> others, of

> that period stands as some of the best work ever done in the field

> of herbal

> medicine, anywhere.

>

> Thomas, I agree with you about Eclectic medicine. It is the great lost

> tradition in the West, and I was able to get Scudder's works through

> Michael Moore years ago. It was very interesting to see the patterns

> and diagnostics Flexner developed for the herbal tinctures he

> used. . .

>

> Thomas

>

>

> Beijing, China

> Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

> Practitioners Guide "

> Check out my blog: sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com

>

>