fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

[Guest guest]

I second Thomas's comments. Western herbalists are so far ahead of Chinese

herbalists in regard for their appreciation of plants. The Chinese have

the incredible tradition but too often TCM graduates in the West have

swallowed what they learn in school and don't even bother to learn the

Latin binomials and later act a little surprised when they find a number

of distinctly different herbs called by the same Pinyin name.

 

Coming down to that I wonder if anyone has ever mentioned how turmeric are

both listed with the same Latin binomial despite the fact that there are

two distinct species Huang Jiang and Yu Jin. Evidently people who are

translating and writing the materia medica's in English don't know the

difference either. What is the correct Latin Binomial for Yu Jin?

 

Michael Tierra

 

 

 

 

Jason et al,

>

> I was at the Institute of Medicinal Plant Development (here in Beijing) on

> Friday discussing my research and the subject of Fu Zi came up. What they

> (I

> was talking to 5 professors) said there is that although it is the same

> species both in the north and the south that the chemistry is quite

> different (keep in mind that the environment where is grows is VERY

> different). In fact, they told me that many people in Sichuan eat fuzi as

> a

> food. This kind of difference is not unique to fuzi, in fact this is very

> common! So, this issue is probably more about where the plant grows rather

> than how it is processed, although there may also be an element of that as

> well.

>

> This is where I think the study of botany is extremely important and

> basically completely over-looked in the West. It is important to remember

> that we are dealing with plants and the study of them as plants is the

> most

> basic knowledge necessary to understand how to use them, grade them, etc.

>

> BTW: nearly every Western herbalist has at least a basic understanding of

> botany, something that is essentially abscent in Chinese herbal training.

>

> Thomas

>

>

> Beijing, China

> Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

> Practitioners Guide "

> Check out my blog: www.sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael,

 

 

 

I am unsure what you mean by “swallowed what they learn in school†but

pinyin is notorious for producing errors, because quite simply pinyin is not a

language and hence characters can be essential in determining the correct herb

that one is talking about. However, the problem with ‘proper’ identification

in relation to given medicinals (even with the Chinese characters) is subject to

debate within the Chinese herbal communities. For example, one can go into a

herb market and find 20+ different kinds of chuan bei mu. Therefore, just

knowing the Latin name (or the characters) does not give one a golden key to

deciphering these complex issues.

 

 

 

In regard to your curcuma question, I assume you are referring to jiang huang

(not huang jiang), but the answer to your question is not as cut and dry as one

may like. Quite simply, there are multiple species that these herbs comes from.

Consequently, sometimes yu jin and jiang huang come from the same plant and

sometimes they don’t. One Chinese source for example, lists 5 different Latin

names for yu jin. So to answer your question, there is no one correct Latin

binomial for yu jin.

 

 

 

Hope this helps,

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of mtierra

Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:06 AM

 

Re: Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I second Thomas's comments. Western herbalists are so far ahead of Chinese

herbalists in regard for their appreciation of plants. The Chinese have

the incredible tradition but too often TCM graduates in the West have

swallowed what they learn in school and don't even bother to learn the

Latin binomials and later act a little surprised when they find a number

of distinctly different herbs called by the same Pinyin name.

 

Coming down to that I wonder if anyone has ever mentioned how turmeric are

both listed with the same Latin binomial despite the fact that there are

two distinct species Huang Jiang and Yu Jin. Evidently people who are

translating and writing the materia medica's in English don't know the

difference either. What is the correct Latin Binomial for Yu Jin?

 

Michael Tierra

 

Jason et al,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Stephen,

 

You pose interesting questions.  I came to TCM school with an informal

background in botany - I had a lifelong passion for plant medicine, and started

studying on my own as a child.  What I can tell you, is that when it came to

learning the herbs, this was a great advantage to me over my fellow and sister

students who didn't have this background.  I also know quite a bit about some of

the major families of plants (mint, pea, sunflower, etc.), and spent some extra

time satisfying my curiosity about which plant families the Chinese herbs I was

learning about, belonged to.  This helped me differentiate more easily between

two herbs that were similar and related - or not related.  Plus, being familiar

with Latin botanical terminology helped me feel that at least some of what I was

learning was not completely foreign!

 

Oddly, another skill helped me enormously with learning the pinyin names of

herbs.  I had been a Hebrew school teacher before coming to acupuncture school. 

I was familiar with hearing and replicating sounds that were not found in the

English language!  I worked in synagogues that had members from all over the

world, who spoke Hebrew with a variety of different accents and dialects.  Wow,

who would have thought that would be to my advantage?  It not only helped me

learn pinyin, it also helped me translate what our native-born Asian teachers

were saying in class, because I could hear through their thick accents what they

were saying, and my peers couldn't.  In those classes, students huddled close

around me to see my notes and ask me what was being said.

 

However, my background in botany (and Hebrew) helped me not a whit when it came

to learning formulas.  At this stage of my learning, it was as much Greek to me

as it was to anyone else.

 

And as you say, the arts of proper evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment really

do not depend at all on botany.

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Tue, 5/26/09, stephen woodley <learntcm wrote:

 

stephen woodley <learntcm

fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

 

Tuesday, May 26, 2009, 12:10 PM

 

Hi Thomas, Michael & All

 

I have often thought about this issue:

What do TCM practitioners need to know regarding the medicinals?

 

 

Michael said:

Western herbalists are so far ahead of Chinese herbalists in

regard for their appreciation of plants

 

Stephen:

that statement is an overgeneralization and I must assume you

mean Western herbalists are ahead on botanical science

 

" appreciation " ? probably a different word applies

Most practitioners I know who practice herbal medicine have a

great love and appreciation for plants..

did you mean something different?

 

Michael said:

too often TCM graduates in the West have swallowed what they

learn in school and don't even bother to learn the

Latin binomials

 

Stephen:

This is true enough -

Question:

If signs and symptoms lead to diagnosis which leads to a formula

-

How does knowing the Latin make someone a better practitioner?

Do others think that this is important knowledge?

 

Thomas said:

nearly every Western herbalist has at least a basic understanding

of botany, something that is essentially abscent in Chinese

herbal training.

 

Stephen:

Although we use rhizomes frequently and perhaps many students and

practitioners don't actually know what a rhizome is -

Although few of us have any sense of which medicinals are

annuals, biennials or perennials -

Does this knowledge make someone a better practitioner?

If we rely on various sources for our herbs or granules - perhaps

the product isn't botanically exact...but if the clinical results

are good....does it matter?

 

just curious

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:

  http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Although everyone would like to know what chemical in one herb is really

helping the patient, but until now, most of the herbs are too complex to be

fully understood. Even if we can find all the chemicals in one herb, it

would still be impossible to prescribe the formula base on those

information.

 

Chinese herbal medicine is a personalized treatment. When people are getting

the swine flu, different people will have different symptoms even though the

virus is the same. Are you trying to find a herb to kill the virus or find a

formula that best fit for the symptoms for that patient? I believe a TCM

doctor could prescribe complete different formulas for different people if

their symptoms type are different, and base on the progress of the disease,

change the formula accordingly.

 

Having the ability to tell the different species apart of similar plants

certainly help getting the correct herbs. But if similar herbs, one species

is growing under better condition and smell and taste better than the

" correct " species, and prepared properly, which one would be more potent?

That's why I think knowing how the herbs tastes and smell is very important,

not just how it Looks.

 

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 1:41 PM, <wrote:

[Guest guest]

, mtierra wrote:

>

> I second Thomas's comments. Western herbalists are so far ahead of Chinese

> herbalists in regard for their appreciation of plants.

 

Dear Michael,

 

I basically agree with you and Thomas that most Western herbalists have more

knowledge about botany and live plants than many TCM herbalists. However, I

think that there are many major differences that influence this issue.

 

Chinese medicine is relatively " departmentalized " relative to Western herbalism.

There are doctors prescribing the herbs, there are pharmacists who need to have

a thorough knowledge of the crude drugs and their processing, and there are

people who grow and wildcraft the herbs in nature. Are these people all

" herbalists? " Certainly they have different appreciations of plants from one

another, or rather, they appreciate different parts of plants.

 

In the West, herbal medicine has had a long but broken history, and it seldom

had the diversity of trade and academic development that Chinese herbal medicine

enjoyed. While people in all parts of the world often appreciate those plants

that are in their immediate environment, only a small fraction of the

commonly-used ingredients in Chinese medicine could be grown or crafted in a

single area. An elaborate trade in these products developed, and specialists in

the dried crude drugs emerged in addition to specialists in the live plants in

each region where the item originally came from.

 

The Western herbalist must be the doctor and the pharmacist, and he or she often

gathers the herbs in nature themselves. The Chinese herbalist can be simply a

doctor that knows how to use the medicine, they don't need to understand botany

or even herbal pharmacy. Of course, the more one knows, the better, but

comparing a TCM doctor to a plant specialist is like comparing a biomedical

doctor to a chemist. Certainly Western doctors know more about chemistry than

the average TCM doctor knows about botany, but neither is really an expert in

the other field. Or needs to be.

 

That said, I do love plants and I think it is a shame that most TCM

practitioners don't know more about botany or herbal pharmacy. If there is

anything that we should learn first and foremost, it is herbal pharmacy, but

nearly all TCM schools in the West lack even a single course in the discipline.

 

Interestingly, the first class that my adviser told me that I will take during

my PhD study will be Chinese herbal botany. My teacher in Hong Kong wildcrafts

herbs from throughout the world and certainly has the same appreciation of

plants that my undergrad horticulture teacher had in Boulder. But in Asia,

herbal botany, herbal pharmacy, and other courses form entire sub-disciplines

within TCM. If the only part of the field that you are looking at is the

clinicians, the doctors, then you aren't really paying attention to the part of

the field that is really concerned with the plants themselves.

 

> Coming down to that I wonder if anyone has ever mentioned how turmeric are

> both listed with the same Latin binomial despite the fact that there are

> two distinct species Huang Jiang and Yu Jin. Evidently people who are

> translating and writing the materia medica's in English don't know the

> difference either.

 

Hey now, be nice. I translated and wrote a materia medica in English, and I

know the difference. And my book clearly states the issue of jiang huang vs. yu

jin. Jiang huang is the rhizome of Curcuma longa, whereas yu jin is the tuber

of several species of Curcuma, including C. longa. Unlike jiang huang, yu jin

can also come from several other species (C. wenyujin Y.H. Chen et C. Ling, C.

kwangsiensis S.G. Lee et C.F. Liang, C. phaecaulis Val). So they differ in

plant part and in their source species. Their Latin pharmaceutical names and

source names reflect these differences.

 

There is consensus in the Chinese literature about what plants these items come

from. It is not a single plant in the case of yu jin, and multiple plants are

considered official according to the Chinese Pharmacopoeia.

 

Eric Brand

 

Blog: http://bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/index.php

Website: http://legendaryherbs.com

[Guest guest]

Thanks Eric et al. I appreciate your attempts to clear up the issue with

Curcuma longa but my observation still stands. I have yu jin growing in my

garden and it doesn't resemble in the slightest the large ginger looking

plant called curcuma longa. Having several species going described with

the same pin yin name is precisely my observation and it occurs and is

accepted in many TCM circles as obviously Fu Zi is. I'm sure you are aware

of the wide popularity turmeric is receiving worldwide and its use in

Ayurveda. So don't you see my point that it is confusing to have a Chinese

name that specifically names and describes Huang jiang with a given set of

properties and another (yu jin) that can be any number of species

including Jiang huang that is described as having different properties.

Allow me to refer you to the following article:

http://www.einc.us/herbalextracts/turmeric.html

 

 

So who's responsibility is it to describe the difference between these

herbs, if any, -- I certainly think the authors of English Chinese materia

medicas at least. The reason is clear, the books are published solely from

the perspective of a clinician with the assumption that they don't need to

know the difference -- oops! now we're confronting confusion of fu zi that

isn't fu zi, and so on. There are other examples -- for instance the

aristolochia debacle occuring because the differentiation was not clear

enough and idiots trying to cash in on the diet market simply thought

aristolochia 1 is the same as aristolochia 1.

 

Michael Tierra

 

Michael

Tierra

[Guest guest]

HI Michael,

 

I think it may not be good to assume that western herbalists are any better than

the Chinese in terms of labeling correct species of plants in their text books.

I remember clearly looking up local plants in western text books in my early

years and then going out to harvest and/ or grow them, only later to find out,

when I studied Chinese medicine, that I didn't have the right one.

 

Actually a good example is taken right our of your book, " Planetary Herbology " ,

which for many of my early years was my favorite book. When you look up magnolia

bark, there is no mention of the correct species. Does this mean I can just go

out and harvest bark from any Magnolia tree growing in my area? I think not, as

when I look up in my Chinese text books they are very clear about the specific

types of Magnolia to harvest the bark from. In Planetary Herbology there is

actually no discrimination of magnolia species for the flower and the bark, both

of which do come from different species.

 

This was a problem in my early years, as I was very quick to go out and harvest

what I read about in a western herbal text book. It lead me to many mistakes and

inaccuracies. It was really not until I studied Chinese medicine that I realized

a much more detailed description of individual species for medicine existed.

Before this I often found western herbalism too vague IMHO.

 

Trevor

[Guest guest]

Hi friends,

 

I think that an important analogy would be to look at the fact that to be a good

Western Dr. one doesn't need to know the intricasies of pharmacology and that

really, a lot of the issues you are bringing up Michael, belong to the realm of

herbal pharmacy and not clinical practice. While it is extremely important, as

was best exemplified by the Aristolochia debacle, to have botanical

authentication w/ attention to both species and constituent profiles, this

doesn't really need to encumber our clinical texts. I think that Roy Upton's

American Herbal Pharmacopoeia project is setting the bar for this type of work

here in the U.S. while in China, if you look at Materia Medica journals, they

are replete w/ just this type of scientific data for the reading and/or

translating.

 

 

 

In reference to Michael's comment about Western herbalists " appreciation " of

plants being greater - I strongly believe there is a lot of value in relating to

plants that you are using clinically with people. It is certainly more common to

find individuals practicing Western Herbalism who value the practice of

controlling all of the variables of their plant materials from harvest to

preparation to delivery than in TCM. From my observation, TCM students are very

hungry for opportunities to broaden their appreciation of plants in the form of

medicine making classes, field trips to botanical gardens and farms where

Chinese herbs are being produced. I believe these are important bridges that

help enliven what can be a daunting and stuffy curriculum, especially for

kinesthetic learners, many of whom gravitate towards TCM as we know.

 

 

 

Rather than being troubled by the variations in genera and species used to

fulfill certain places in a TCM materia medica I've taken inspiration in the

possibility that we might use related substances from our own backyard to

fulfill specific clinical objectives within a TCM framework. Having begun my

training w/ Michael, Thomas, and Bill S. 15 years ago, I can still remember the

excitement this particular notion filled me with as it continues to today. I

think that the variability in species used throughout China also speaks to the

criticism I've seen offered on this forum of Thomas' fine book.

 

 

 

I think that while being trained in botany doesn't make one a better clinician,

it can offer a possibility for being a more versatile herbalist, being able to

adapt to limitations of herbal availability. I hope this topic will be kept up

as there is a lot more to say.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

Ben Zappin

 

www.fiveflavorsherbs.com

[Guest guest]

HI Andrea Beth

 

Some interesting points!

 

So, your knowledge of botany helped you learn single herb

knowledge.

was this because you saw connections between certain herbs via

their families? Did that help you to understand them better?

Do you think schools should teach or require intro Botany?

 

Your other comments on pinyin address what I have always thought

was the primary problem in Westerners learning herbal medicine

 

Learning herbs in pinyin is like learning new info that's coded.

it seems that learning herbs is inhibited by names that students

could neither pronounce nor spell - so it's asking people to

learn information in a new paradigm about intangibles (pinyin

herb names).

I wonder if people think that the Latin names would make this

easier or is it just asking students to learn more and thus

overwhelming

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - The way an email service should be

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Stephen,

 

We were required at PCOM to learn the pinyin names and also the Latin

pharmaceutical names, which are similar to, but not the same as, the Latin

binomial names (something I found a source of great frustration).  I'm not

knowledgeable enough about the two different Latin naming systems to comment on

them, and have no idea why the two systems exist.  Perhaps someone else can

clarify this for us.

 

I do think that everything I learned at PCOM required a different way of

questioning, perceiving, and understanding - and that working with a different

language (or two) mirrored that for me.  Some schools require some competency

with medical Chinese (and I know there are many different Chinese languages, but

I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on this either), and in retrospect, I

wish this had been required in my training.  I think it would be a great asset

in helping me grasp a bigger, more holistic picture of the medicine we

practice.  I do not believe encountering difficulty with a language that is

unfamiliar, is reason enough to dissect that language out of an educational

program about a discipline that arose out of that language (and perhaps

others).  It is a part of the whole, and part of the beauty (and mystery) of the

medicine.  Truly, I think it is integral to it, yet I am not so far behooved to

study it...

 

That said, I think some botanical education would greatly benefit those students

who are unfamiliar with things that grow in, on, and under the ground.  It

would/could prepare the way for facilitating some better understanding, at

least, of plant parts.  My own personal way I have learned to appreciate plant

families may be something that is just peculiar to me, however.  I have been

fascinated with the subjects of botany and genetics (!) ever since I first

learned in 6th grade about the monk Gregor Mendel, and his experiments with

cross-pollinating different kinds of pea plants.  In my adventures into " the

weeds " at the dead-end of my street in New York, I learned how native herb

plants would change through the year, and wondered why some plants of the same

species would flower in different colors than the majority of their brethren.

 

I have an undergrad degree in environmental science, and combined with my

fascination of the plant world, I tend to observe similarities in plant

families, similarities of plants that grow, flower, fruit and seed in similar

seasons, and similarities between plants that grow in the same locale (for

instance, everything in the desert where I currently live, is either thorny,

sticky, poisonous, or bitter, and has a very short time between sprouting,

flowering, fruiting and maturing - it is very windy much of the year here, and

we find plants  - and critters - here which are used in the Asian materia medica

for treating internal wind).  These kinds of coincidences fascinate me.

 

This seems to be part of the way I innately understand the world.  I can't say

at this point whether it would be useful to anyone else medicinally!  I think it

is precisely for the reason that this is part of my innate way of understanding

plants, that noting these similarities was useful to me, and not the other way

around.

 

However, I will say something about pea plants (plants in the pea family,

commonly called legumes).  It is well-known that they " fix " nitrogen in the

soil, whereas other plants take nitrogen out of the soil.  " Fixing " is an

interesting word for this, and I'm not sure why that is the word that is chosen,

but it means to bring nitrogen back into soil that has been depleted of nitrogen

by other crops.  The farming practice of crop rotation took advantage of this,

and advocated planting a pea-family crop every so many years in a field, to

replace the nitrogen that had been used up in previous years by other crops. 

This practice was replaced in more recent years by the " advanced technology "

practice of adding chemical fertilizers, whereas early farmers, such as the way

northeast US natives used fish, added manure, or other animal products as a

source of nitrogen fertilizer for their crops.

 

Following this thought, nitrogen is an essential building block in the creation

of protein, and legumes (the seeds of plants in the pea family) offer the most

abundant source of protein in the plant world.  Protein is a basic building

block of much animal flesh.  One day my curiosity led me to explore which of our

herbal medicine come from plants in the pea family, and whether these might have

analagous restorative or building effects on our bodies.  The pea family, by the

way, is one of the largest - right up there with the daisy family.

 

Here's what I found out about the tonifying herbs in the pea family:

 

Gan Cao (licorice) and Huang Qi (astragalus) both are qi tonics.

 

Hu Lu Ba (trigonelli) and Sha Yuan Ji Li (astragalus seeds) are both yang tonics

and scatter cold.

 

There are no pea family members that are yin or blood tonics, according to

Bensky.  As a contrast, it is interesting to note that there are no mint family

plants in any of the tonic categories - they are all too scattering or opening,

to help with building.

 

Looking at the other plant families represented in the qi and yang tonic

categories, I did not notice any other families represented more than once.  I

find this interesting and it piques my curiosity.  Here's the rest of the

pea-family herbs in Bensky:

 

Dan Dou Chi (prepared soybean) releases the exterior and nourishes yin.

 

Ge Gen (puerariae) releases the exterior and generates fluids.

 

Jue Ming Zi (cassia seed) expels wind-heat, clears liver fire and moistens the

intestines to relieve constipation.

 

Ku Shen (sophorae flavescentis) addresses lower burner damp-heat and assorted

itchy skin disorders, but does not have any apparent nourishing properties.

 

Shan Dou Gen (sophorae tokinensis root) relieves fire toxicity and damp-heat

jaundice, but no nourishing properties.

 

Lu Dou (mung beans) relieves summerheat and addresses thirst.

 

Bian Dou (dolichoris lablab) clears summerheat and strengthens spleen.

 

Dou Juan (dried young soybean sprouts) clears summerheat and damp-heat.  Compare

to Dou Chi, also made from soybeans.

 

Fan Xie Ye (senna/cassia leaf) - purges heat and accumulation through the

bowels.  Used to prevent summerheat disorders.  Compare to Jue Ming Zi, seeds of

the same plant.

 

Chi Xiao Dou (aduki bean) clears heat and promotes urination, disperses blood

stasis, clears mild damp-heat jaundice.  Used for deficiency edema with peanuts

and red jujubes.

 

Hai Tong Pi (erythrinae) - dispels wind damp and unblocks channels in low back

and knees, promotes urination for edema, treats itchy skin lesions.

 

Zao Jiao (gleditsia) dispels phlegm, opens orifices to revive spirit, dissipates

clumps for abscesses and boils, unblocks the bowels.

 

Huai Hua Mi (flos sophorae japonicae) cools blood and stops bleeding, cools

liver heat.

 

Jiang Xiang (dalbergia heartwood) disperses blood stasis and stops internal

bleeding, invigorates blood and moves qi to relieve pain in spleen and stomach

due to stagnant blood.

 

Ji Xue Teng (milettia) moves and tonifies blood, invigorates channels and

relaxes sinews.

 

Su Mu (sappan wood) invigorates blood, reduces swellings, alleviates pain, stops

bleeding.

 

He Huan Pi (and He Huan Hua) (mimosa tree bark and flower) nourish heart and

calm spirit, relieves emotionally-related constraint, invigorates blood to

relieve pain.

 

Er Cha (acacia or uncaria concentrate tea) drains dampness and absorbs seepage

for non-healing sores, stops bleeding (topical use). clears the lungs and

transforms phlegm, generates fluids and stops diarrhea.  Treats thirst due to

summerheat.

 

So anout 2/3 of these (14 out of 22), have some nourishing or moistening

action.  I think it is more common than not, that herbs in the pea family will

nourish, augment, tonify or moisten, in addition to their other functions.

 

By comparison to other families, a very large majority of yin tonics are in the

lily and orchid families.  Wow!  How can anyone help but wonder about this?

 

At some point, I noticed that I would develop a tingling/buzzing in my mouth

when I ate celery, so I investigated which of our herbs are in the umbel

family.  Sure enough, when I took a formula which contained any of those, I

developed the same tingling feeling.  I think it was some sort of food

sensitivity or allergy.  So knowing which herbs belong to which plant families

could be very useful information when prescribing herbs to someone who has

allergies to certain plant foods.  In fact, I did research a formula for one

patient with this presentation a few years ago, to reduce her probability of

reacting adversely to it.

 

So that's a brief (but long!) foray into the way I think about botany as it

relates to herbs and herbal medicine.  I would love to see a book written about

plant medicine according to the characteristics of plant families, and then

further broken down into how those properties vary according to whether one is

using the root, seed, leaf, flower, branch, etc.  While I think this is a

fascinating subject, I'm not sure I find it interesting enough to do the

research and write the book myself.  I also don't know whether there would be a

market for it.

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Wed, 5/27/09, stephen woodley <learntcm wrote:

 

stephen woodley <learntcm

Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

 

Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 12:29 PM

 

HI Andrea Beth

 

Some interesting points!

 

So, your knowledge of botany helped you learn single herb

knowledge.

was this because you saw connections between certain herbs via

their families? Did that help you to understand them better?

Do you think schools should teach or require intro Botany?

 

Your other comments on pinyin address what I have always thought

was the primary problem in Westerners learning herbal medicine

 

Learning herbs in pinyin is like learning new info that's coded.

it seems that learning herbs is inhibited by names that students

could neither pronounce nor spell - so it's asking people to

learn information in a new paradigm about intangibles (pinyin

herb names).

I wonder if people think that the Latin names would make this

easier or is it just asking students to learn more and thus

overwhelming

 

Stephen Woodley LAc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This is interesting, Andrea. It would be nice to see as an appendix to

the MM, a grouping of the herbs by family like that.

I had a client some time ago who had serious allergy to the

umbelifferas. Couldn't eat celery, carrots, etc. etc. To point of

gasping etc. And thus wondered about every CM formula. I had to go

over each herb to make sure.

 

Can you eat carrots without that tingling sensation?

 

ann

 

On May 28, 2009, at 2:15 AM, wrote:

>

>

>

> However, I will say something about pea plants (plants in the pea

> family, commonly called legumes). It is well-known that they " fix "

> nitrogen in the soil, whereas other plants take nitrogen out of the

> soil. " Fixing " is an interesting word for this, and I'm not sure

> why that is the word that is chosen, but it means to bring nitrogen

> back into soil that has been depleted of nitrogen by other crops.

> The farming practice of crop rotation took advantage of this, and

> advocated planting a pea-family crop every so many years in a field,

> to replace the nitrogen that had been used up in previous years by

> other crops. This practice was replaced in more recent years by the

> " advanced technology " practice of adding chemical fertilizers,

> whereas early farmers, such as the way northeast US natives used

> fish, added manure, or other animal products as a source of nitrogen

> fertilizer for their crops.

>

> Following this thought, nitrogen is an essential building block in

> the creation of protein, and legumes (the seeds of plants in the pea

> family) offer the most abundant source of protein in the plant

> world. Protein is a basic building block of much animal flesh. One

> day my curiosity led me to explore which of our herbal medicine come

> from plants in the pea family, and whether these might have

> analagous restorative or building effects on our bodies. The pea

> family, by the way, is one of the largest - right up there with the

> daisy family.

>

> Here's what I found out about the tonifying herbs in the pea family:

>

> Gan Cao (licorice) and Huang Qi (astragalus) both are qi tonics.

>

> Hu Lu Ba (trigonelli) and Sha Yuan Ji Li (astragalus seeds) are both

> yang tonics and scatter cold.

>

> There are no pea family members that are yin or blood tonics,

> according to Bensky. As a contrast, it is interesting to note that

> there are no mint family plants in any of the tonic categories -

> they are all too scattering or opening, to help with building.

>

> Looking at the other plant families represented in the qi and yang

> tonic categories, I did not notice any other families represented

> more than once. I find this interesting and it piques my

> curiosity. Here's the rest of the pea-family herbs in Bensky:

>

> Dan Dou Chi (prepared soybean) releases the exterior and nourishes

> yin.

>

> Ge Gen (puerariae) releases the exterior and generates fluids.

>

> Jue Ming Zi (cassia seed) expels wind-heat, clears liver fire and

> moistens the intestines to relieve constipation.

>

> Ku Shen (sophorae flavescentis) addresses lower burner damp-heat and

> assorted itchy skin disorders, but does not have any apparent

> nourishing properties.

>

> Shan Dou Gen (sophorae tokinensis root) relieves fire toxicity and

> damp-heat jaundice, but no nourishing properties.

>

> Lu Dou (mung beans) relieves summerheat and addresses thirst.

>

> Bian Dou (dolichoris lablab) clears summerheat and strengthens spleen.

>

> Dou Juan (dried young soybean sprouts) clears summerheat and damp-

> heat. Compare to Dou Chi, also made from soybeans.

>

> Fan Xie Ye (senna/cassia leaf) - purges heat and accumulation

> through the bowels. Used to prevent summerheat disorders. Compare

> to Jue Ming Zi, seeds of the same plant.

>

> Chi Xiao Dou (aduki bean) clears heat and promotes urination,

> disperses blood stasis, clears mild damp-heat jaundice. Used for

> deficiency edema with peanuts and red jujubes.

>

> Hai Tong Pi (erythrinae) - dispels wind damp and unblocks channels

> in low back and knees, promotes urination for edema, treats itchy

> skin lesions.

>

> Zao Jiao (gleditsia) dispels phlegm, opens orifices to revive

> spirit, dissipates clumps for abscesses and boils, unblocks the

> bowels.

>

> Huai Hua Mi (flos sophorae japonicae) cools blood and stops

> bleeding, cools liver heat.

>

> Jiang Xiang (dalbergia heartwood) disperses blood stasis and stops

> internal bleeding, invigorates blood and moves qi to relieve pain in

> spleen and stomach due to stagnant blood.

>

> Ji Xue Teng (milettia) moves and tonifies blood, invigorates

> channels and relaxes sinews.

>

> Su Mu (sappan wood) invigorates blood, reduces swellings, alleviates

> pain, stops bleeding.

>

> He Huan Pi (and He Huan Hua) (mimosa tree bark and flower) nourish

> heart and calm spirit, relieves emotionally-related constraint,

> invigorates blood to relieve pain.

>

> Er Cha (acacia or uncaria concentrate tea) drains dampness and

> absorbs seepage for non-healing sores, stops bleeding (topical use).

> clears the lungs and transforms phlegm, generates fluids and stops

> diarrhea. Treats thirst due to summerheat.

>

> So anout 2/3 of these (14 out of 22), have some nourishing or

> moistening action. I think it is more common than not, that herbs

> in the pea family will nourish, augment, tonify or moisten, in

> addition to their other functions.

>

> By comparison to other families, a very large majority of yin tonics

> are in the lily and orchid families. Wow! How can anyone help but

> wonder about this?

>

> At some point, I noticed that I would develop a tingling/buzzing in

> my mouth when I ate celery, so I investigated which of our herbs are

> in the umbel family. Sure enough, when I took a formula which

> contained any of those, I developed the same tingling feeling. I

> think it was some sort of food sensitivity or allergy. So knowing

> which herbs belong to which plant families could be very useful

> information when prescribing herbs to someone who has allergies to

> certain plant foods. In fact, I did research a formula for one

> patient with this presentation a few years ago, to reduce her

> probability of reacting adversely to it.

>

> So that's a brief (but long!) foray into the way I think about

> botany as it relates to herbs and herbal medicine. I would love to

> see a book written about plant medicine according to the

> characteristics of plant families, and then further broken down into

> how those properties vary according to whether one is using the

> root, seed, leaf, flower, branch, etc. While I think this is a

> fascinating subject, I'm not sure I find it interesting enough to do

> the research and write the book myself. I also don't know whether

> there would be a market for it.

>

> Andrea Beth

>

>

> Traditional Oriental Medicine

> Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> 635 S. 10th St.

> Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> (928) 274-1373

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, mtierra wrote:

Having several species going described with

> the same pin yin name is precisely my observation and it occurs and is

> accepted in many TCM circles as obviously Fu Zi is.

 

There are ways to describe the plant in Chinese more completely than the simple

drug name. In technical (herbal or scientific) Chinese, there are names that

differentiate the various species to a similar degree of specificity as Latin

binomials. However, the herbs themselves were used for centuries before the

Latin binomials were created, so the traditional botanical differentiation

doesn't precisely mirror modern taxonomy.

 

Of course, identifying the correct plants with precise botanical nomenclature is

essential, and this is a major topic in the field of Chinese medicine. However,

it is a complex issue since multiple related plants have been traditionally used

as the genuine article for centuries. There are specialists in herbal

authentication, people who analyze the different sources from a botanical,

historical, and chemical perspective. Such specialists try to determine what

the authentic article was historically, and which specific plants are

acceptable. For some items, this task is easy. For other items, it is

extremely complicated. It is, however, a topic that is diligently pursued by

entire teams of scientists and herbal pharmacy experts in Asia.

 

 

> So who's responsibility is it to describe the difference between these

> herbs, if any, -- I certainly think the authors of English Chinese materia

> medicas at least.

 

As an author of an English-language Chinese Materia Medica, I have to say that

the main goal is to present the consensus from the Chinese literature. My

materia medica isn't about Eric's view of Chinese herbs, it is an English

presentation of the key primary Chinese sources. We tried to improve the

organization so that it would be an ideal student text, but the core content is

a direct transmission of the Chinese literature.

 

The people who handle issues of herbal identity and official species are experts

in authentication. I am fortunate to have a good relationship with a teacher in

Hong Kong who is one of the main experts in this field, and what he does is

extremely advanced. He takes botanical samples from throughout China and

abroad, analyzes them in a lab, stores reference samples in a vault, they assess

the specimens in terms of genetics, chemistry, and taxonomy. They use

historical texts, microscopes, HPLC, TLC, morphology, everything. They even

collect samples of the dried drug from 100 markets and growing regions

throughout China and test those to assess their constituents, species, etc.

People dedicate their careers to this, they write hundreds of academic

publications and dozens of books, they have entire divisions of universities

based around their efforts. It's hardcore.

 

The people who handle the issues of species identification and herbal

authentication in Chinese medicine are people like Dr. Zhao Zhongzhen, the

researcher in Hong Kong. China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, and Korea all have

entire teams of experts that work on their national pharmacopoeias. These are

the people that decide which species are official and which ones are variants.

It is not up to us as English materia medica authors to arbitrarily make these

decisions. This type of thing requires research, evidence, and consensus.

 

I remember when I was doing the materia medica, Nigel Wiseman had a database of

all the different medicinals used in Chinese medicine. The botanical sources

had many items, with marks next to the official species. It was updated with

every edition of the Chinese Pharmacopoeia. Sometimes the official species is

even different from one country to the next. For example, si wu tang is a

formula with only four herbs, but two of the herbs (dang gui and chuan xiong)

have different official source plants listed in the Japanese, Chinese, and

Korean Pharmacopoeias.

 

The reason is clear, the books are published solely from

> the perspective of a clinician with the assumption that they don't need to

> know the difference

 

No, it is an important clinical issue. It affects the pharmacists upstream more

than the doctors in the clinic, but it is a key issue nonetheless. However, the

state of the science of authentication is a work in progress. There has been a

tremendous amount of work done on the topic by many of the finest minds in

Chinese medicine. However, the material is mostly available in Chinese, and

there are not many people in the West that are interested in the topic. It is

difficult to translate the abundant Chinese materials, simply because herbal

pharmacy and authentication issues appeal to such a tiny niche market.

 

Also, I think that you might want to revisit a Chinese medicine bookstore if it

has been a few years since you've perused the shelves. The new English language

materia medicas have come a long way. For example, my book Concise Chinese

Materia Medica covers many of these pharmacy and herb ID issues. It even has a

CD-ROM with color photographs of all the medicinals, with a special section of

photos on commonly confused medicinals. And the new Bensky book is phenomenal

when it comes to herbal pharmacy and botany issues. Erich Stoger, one of the

authors, is a true expert in this field and he did a great job with the species

and pharmacy information. I think you'll find that the new materia medicas have

come a long way.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

Ann,

 

Some carrots cause the tingling and some don't.  It seems that older, larger

carrots do cause this, while very young tender ones do not.  I imagine whatever

component causes this effect gets more concentrated as the carrot grows.

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/28/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote:

 

A. Brameier <snakeoil.works

Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

 

Thursday, May 28, 2009, 12:24 AM

 

This is interesting, Andrea. It would be nice to see as an appendix to 

the MM, a grouping of the herbs by family like that.

I had a client some time ago who had serious allergy to the 

umbelifferas. Couldn't eat celery, carrots, etc. etc. To point of 

gasping etc. And thus wondered about every CM formula. I had to go 

over each herb to make sure.

 

Can you eat carrots without that tingling sensation?

 

ann

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

When I was looking through my older edition of Bensky's MM last night, I noticed

that in many cases, an herb can be properly identified not only as one of

several different species, but different species in different families, which

are not even related to each other.  Wow!  Interesting!

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/28/09, Eric Brand <smilinglotus wrote:

 

Eric Brand <smilinglotus

Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

 

Thursday, May 28, 2009, 1:03 AM

 

, mtierra wrote:

Having several species going described with

> the same pin yin name is precisely my observation and it occurs and is

> accepted in many TCM circles as obviously Fu Zi is.

 

There are ways to describe the plant in Chinese more completely than the simple

drug name.  In technical (herbal or scientific) Chinese, there are names that

differentiate the various species to a similar degree of specificity as Latin

binomials.  However, the herbs themselves were used for centuries before the

Latin binomials were created, so the traditional botanical differentiation

doesn't precisely mirror modern taxonomy. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Andrea.

Interesting.

Isn't Dang gui an umbellifera? That's how the MM2 has it listed, but

the MM3 puts it in the Apiacae. Same thing with chuan xiong, and

others. I realize that lately there's been realignment of the

categories. Could you refresh our collective memory about this? Do you

have a sensitivity to these formerly-known-as umbelliferae?

 

I can try to goog these later on my own, but would appreciate yr input.

 

thanks again,

ann

 

 

On May 28, 2009, at 10:18 AM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Ann,

>

> Some carrots cause the tingling and some don't. It seems that

> older, larger carrots do cause this, while very young tender ones do

> not. I imagine whatever component causes this effect gets more

> concentrated as the carrot grows.

>

> Andrea Beth

>

>

> Traditional Oriental Medicine

> Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> 635 S. 10th St.

> Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> (928) 274-1373

>

> --- On Thu, 5/28/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote:

>

> A. Brameier <snakeoil.works

> Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

>

> Thursday, May 28, 2009, 12:24 AM

>

> This is interesting, Andrea. It would be nice to see as an appendix to

> the MM, a grouping of the herbs by family like that.

> I had a client some time ago who had serious allergy to the

> umbelifferas. Couldn't eat celery, carrots, etc. etc. To point of

> gasping etc. And thus wondered about every CM formula. I had to go

> over each herb to make sure.

>

> Can you eat carrots without that tingling sensation?

>

> ann

>

>

[Guest guest]

HI Michael,

 

My comments were in know way an insult. Please do not take them that way. I only

wanted to point out that there exists vagueness in published materia medica from

both western and eastern sources.

 

Your book did provide a lot of inspiration for me in my early years. I am/ was

very intrigued by the idea of using western herbs in mix with the Chinese

system. I first studied western herbology back in 1990/91 with Terri Willard at

WIld Rose. Terri influenced me so much that by 1993 I found myself living in

various Tee Pee's and log cabins in the interior mountainous areas of British

Columbia studying, identifying, growing, and harvesting the wild herbs, just as

Terri had done himself. I was trying to follow in his footsteps. I literally had

hundreds of jars of different specimens lying around for years!

 

After living that way for 4 or 5 years it became very obvious to me that I

didn't really know what I was doing with all these beautiful gifts from nature

in terms how to use/ combine and attain significant healing results, and that

much of my knowledge and passion was based on a love of folklore- not actual

clinical change.

 

So I dove into Chinese medicine. At this point I really started to see that

there is a difference between being a clinician who holds a high level of

confidence to treat the various problems in front of him and someone who loves

to gather plants- knowing all their folk lore. The two can go together, but this

has to be only after clinical proficiency has been attained. Otherwise it is

really just a big experiment isn't it?

 

I mean after learning the Chinese system of diagnosing the Common cold, with all

it's varieties, applying the YEP (Yarrow Elder flower Peppermint) formula

(which I would have wildcrafted myself) every time someone came in with a cold

became too simplistic- hence why I never felt I attained good results.

 

Until I have mastered the skill of diagnosing specific disorders and all their

vagaries. Knowing how to properly treat them with a system of herbs with

properties well documented for thousands of years. Knowing how to slightly

adjust dosage and species. Knowing prognosis and length of treatment time. Until

I am truly competent at this and can tell a patient that they should experience

some good alleviation from their suffering by X and X amount of time, I feel

reluctant to mix in the western herbs on top, not because I don't have a GREAT

love of the wild beauty around me, but because I want to feel clinical

confidence.

 

So again, knowing a plants story, it's identification, and it's folklore is

beautiful are important, but in my experience (because I have seen both), this

can be seperate from attaining good clinical results- which if I am to be a

" Doctor/ clinician " with the " Patients " best interests at heart, is the most

important.

 

That being said, one of my Mentor's here in Vancouver has brought back many

indigenous species of Taiwanese plants (folk medicine) that he incorporates into

his practice all the time. His results are excellent! My goal will be to

incorporate our local species, folk medicine, but after I have become very

confident with my clinical skill first.

 

Trevor

[Guest guest]

Dang Gui (angelica sinensis) is an umbelliferae species, according to Bensky's

MM1.  So is Chuan Xiong (Ligusticum). 

 

Also the warm acrid exterior releasers Bai Zhi, Fang Feng, Qiang Huo and Gao

Ben, and Chai Hu - the only cool acrid extrior-releasing herb that is in this

family.

 

I have definitely noticed this effect with all of the exterior-releasing

umbel-family herbs, quite strongly.  With Dang Gui and Chuan Xiong, the effect

is more mild.  This leads me to think that herbs which are more active on the

exterior level, are more likely to cause symptoms that are fairly close to the

surface of the body as well.  Makes sense, yes?

 

I have a terrible time taking these exterior-releasing herbs also, because they

give me very strong headaches - a symptom I do not get with other

exterior-releasing herbs.  It is like my head and neck are in a vise, and

nothing alters it until the herb is out of my system.

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/28/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote:

 

A. Brameier <snakeoil.works

Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

 

Thursday, May 28, 2009, 7:54 AM

 

Thanks, Andrea.

Interesting.

Isn't Dang gui an umbellifera? That's how the MM2 has it listed, but 

the MM3 puts it in the Apiacae. Same thing with chuan xiong, and 

others. I realize that lately there's been realignment of the 

categories. Could you refresh our collective memory about this? Do you 

have a sensitivity to these formerly-known-as umbelliferae?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Andrea Beth,

I'd highly recommend the text, " An Introduction to Chinese Herbal

Medicine with Particular Reference to the Chinese Umbelliferae " by

Mark Wright to you, as it goes into just these ideas. He compares

some of the essential umbelliferaes used in Chinese medicine, based

on source materials in modern botany and classical texts, specifically

the Ben Cao Cang Mu of Li Shih-zhen.

 

 

On May 28, 2009, at 9:08 AM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Dang Gui (angelica sinensis) is an umbelliferae species, according

> to Bensky's MM1. So is Chuan Xiong (Ligusticum).

>

> Also the warm acrid exterior releasers Bai Zhi, Fang Feng, Qiang Huo

> and Gao Ben, and Chai Hu - the only cool acrid extrior-releasing

> herb that is in this family.

>

> I have definitely noticed this effect with all of the exterior-

> releasing umbel-family herbs, quite strongly. With Dang Gui and

> Chuan Xiong, the effect is more mild. This leads me to think that

> herbs which are more active on the exterior level, are more likely

> to cause symptoms that are fairly close to the surface of the body

> as well. Makes sense, yes?

>

> I have a terrible time taking these exterior-releasing herbs also,

> because they give me very strong headaches - a symptom I do not get

> with other exterior-releasing herbs. It is like my head and neck

> are in a vise, and nothing alters it until the herb is out of my

> system.

>

> Andrea Beth

>

>

> Traditional Oriental Medicine

> Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> 635 S. 10th St.

> Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> (928) 274-1373

>

> --- On Thu, 5/28/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote:

>

> A. Brameier <snakeoil.works

> Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

>

> Thursday, May 28, 2009, 7:54 AM

>

> Thanks, Andrea.

> Interesting.

> Isn't Dang gui an umbellifera? That's how the MM2 has it listed, but

> the MM3 puts it in the Apiacae. Same thing with chuan xiong, and

> others. I realize that lately there's been realignment of the

> categories. Could you refresh our collective memory about this? Do you

> have a sensitivity to these formerly-known-as umbelliferae?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow!  Thanks, Z'ev!  I appreciate your thoughtfulness.  Any other books you know

of that focus on herbs according to their family?

 

Andrea Beth

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/28/09, <zrosenbe wrote:

 

<zrosenbe

Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

 

Thursday, May 28, 2009, 12:04 PM

 

Andrea Beth,

    I'd highly recommend the text, " An Introduction to Chinese Herbal 

Medicine with Particular Reference to the Chinese Umbelliferae " by 

Mark Wright to you, as it goes into just these ideas.  He compares 

some of  the essential umbelliferaes used in Chinese medicine, based 

on source materials in modern botany and classical texts, specifically 

the Ben Cao Cang Mu of Li Shih-zhen.

 

 

On May 28, 2009, at 9:08 AM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Dang Gui (angelica sinensis) is an umbelliferae species, according 

> to Bensky's MM1.  So is Chuan Xiong (Ligusticum).

>

> Also the warm acrid exterior releasers Bai Zhi, Fang Feng, Qiang Huo 

> and Gao Ben, and Chai Hu - the only cool acrid extrior-releasing 

> herb that is in this family.

>

> I have definitely noticed this effect with all of the exterior-

> releasing umbel-family herbs, quite strongly.  With Dang Gui and 

> Chuan Xiong, the effect is more mild.  This leads me to think that 

> herbs which are more active on the exterior level, are more likely 

> to cause symptoms that are fairly close to the surface of the body 

> as well.  Makes sense, yes?

>

> I have a terrible time taking these exterior-releasing herbs also, 

> because they give me very strong headaches - a symptom I do not get 

> with other exterior-releasing herbs.  It is like my head and neck 

> are in a vise, and nothing alters it until the herb is out of my 

> system.

>

> Andrea Beth

>

>

> Traditional Oriental Medicine

> Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> 635 S. 10th St.

> Cottonwood, AZ  86326

> (928) 274-1373

>

> --- On Thu, 5/28/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote:

>

> A. Brameier <snakeoil.works

> Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

>

> Thursday, May 28, 2009, 7:54 AM

>

> Thanks, Andrea.

> Interesting.

> Isn't Dang gui an umbellifera? That's how the MM2 has it listed, but

> the MM3 puts it in the Apiacae. Same thing with chuan xiong, and

> others. I realize that lately there's been realignment of the

> categories. Could you refresh our collective memory about this? Do you

> have a sensitivity to these formerly-known-as umbelliferae?

>

>

[Guest guest]

That's the main one, others may have some suggestions. . .

 

 

Z'ev

On May 28, 2009, at 2:08 PM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Wow! Thanks, Z'ev! I appreciate your thoughtfulness. Any other

> books you know of that focus on herbs according to their family?

>

> Andrea Beth

>

> Traditional Oriental Medicine

> Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> 635 S. 10th St.

> Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> (928) 274-1373

>

> --- On Thu, 5/28/09, <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> <zrosenbe

> Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

>

> Thursday, May 28, 2009, 12:04 PM

>

> Andrea Beth,

> I'd highly recommend the text, " An Introduction to Chinese Herbal

> Medicine with Particular Reference to the Chinese Umbelliferae " by

> Mark Wright to you, as it goes into just these ideas. He compares

> some of the essential umbelliferaes used in Chinese medicine, based

> on source materials in modern botany and classical texts, specifically

> the Ben Cao Cang Mu of Li Shih-zhen.

>

>

> On May 28, 2009, at 9:08 AM, wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Dang Gui (angelica sinensis) is an umbelliferae species, according

> > to Bensky's MM1. So is Chuan Xiong (Ligusticum).

> >

> > Also the warm acrid exterior releasers Bai Zhi, Fang Feng, Qiang Huo

> > and Gao Ben, and Chai Hu - the only cool acrid extrior-releasing

> > herb that is in this family.

> >

> > I have definitely noticed this effect with all of the exterior-

> > releasing umbel-family herbs, quite strongly. With Dang Gui and

> > Chuan Xiong, the effect is more mild. This leads me to think that

> > herbs which are more active on the exterior level, are more likely

> > to cause symptoms that are fairly close to the surface of the body

> > as well. Makes sense, yes?

> >

> > I have a terrible time taking these exterior-releasing herbs also,

> > because they give me very strong headaches - a symptom I do not get

> > with other exterior-releasing herbs. It is like my head and neck

> > are in a vise, and nothing alters it until the herb is out of my

> > system.

> >

> > Andrea Beth

> >

> >

> > Traditional Oriental Medicine

> > Happy Hours in the CALM Center

> > 635 S. 10th St.

> > Cottonwood, AZ 86326

> > (928) 274-1373

> >

> > --- On Thu, 5/28/09, A. Brameier <snakeoil.works wrote:

> >

> > A. Brameier <snakeoil.works

> > Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

> >

> > Thursday, May 28, 2009, 7:54 AM

> >

> > Thanks, Andrea.

> > Interesting.

> > Isn't Dang gui an umbellifera? That's how the MM2 has it listed, but

> > the MM3 puts it in the Apiacae. Same thing with chuan xiong, and

> > others. I realize that lately there's been realignment of the

> > categories. Could you refresh our collective memory about this? Do

> you

> > have a sensitivity to these formerly-known-as umbelliferae?

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Ann,

 

Umbelliferae and Apiaceae are one in the same, the latter is the newer name

for the same family. About 20 years ago there was a major change in

nomenclature in the field of botany, but it has taken a while for this to

sift down to texts like this. Another note is that ¾£Ëã (shengma) or as

you

may know it Cimicifuga heracleifolia, C. dahurica, or C. foetida has also

undergone a change and is now Actea (instead of Cimicifuga) as is noted in

my book. This is somewhat common in botany as time goes on there are changes

made is the nomenclature based on new information. FYI Cimicifua was

originally part of the Actea genus but was separated out sometime in the

middle of the 20th Century (sorry I don't know exactly when).

 

So, now some of you are saying, " Even the botanists don't know the names. "

or " This is too confusing, forget about it. " But I would offer that although

changes like this in the botanical nomenclature somewhat common, they rarely

effect the reltively few plants we use as medicine.

 

Andrea, Very nice breakdown of the Fabeaceae (formally Leguminaceae, this is

another victim of the change mentioned above) family and nice discussion on

family dynamics of medicinal plants.

 

Thomas

 

 

Beijing, China

Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

Practitioners Guide "

Check out my blog: www.sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Thomas.  I didn't know so many family names had changed!

 

Andrea Beth

 

 

Traditional Oriental Medicine

Happy Hours in the CALM Center

635 S. 10th St.

Cottonwood, AZ  86326

(928) 274-1373

 

 

--- On Thu, 5/28/09, wrote:

 

 

Re: fu zi and other TCM ambiguities

 

Thursday, May 28, 2009, 6:11 PM

 

Ann,

 

Umbelliferae and Apiaceae are one in the same, the latter is the newer name

for the same family. About 20 years ago there was a major change in

nomenclature in the field of botany, but it has taken a while for this to

sift down to texts like this. Another note is that å‡éº» (shengma) or as you

may know it Cimicifuga heracleifolia, C. dahurica, or C. foetida has also

undergone a change and is now Actea (instead of Cimicifuga) as is noted in

my book. This is somewhat common in botany as time goes on there are changes

made is the nomenclature based on new information. FYI Cimicifua was

originally part of the Actea genus but was separated out sometime in the

middle of the 20th Century (sorry I don't know exactly when).

 

So, now some of you are saying, " Even the botanists don't know the names. "

or " This is too confusing, forget about it. " But I would offer that although

changes like this in the botanical nomenclature somewhat common, they rarely

effect the reltively few plants we use as medicine.

 

Andrea, Very nice breakdown of the Fabeaceae (formally Leguminaceae, this is

another victim of the change mentioned above) family and nice discussion on

family dynamics of medicinal plants.

 

Thomas

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

In the 3rd edition MM:

 

Jiang huang =* rhizome* of Curcuma longa

Yu jin = *root* of Curcuma wenyujin / longa / kwangsiensis / phaeocaulis

 

Rhizomes are underground horizontal plant stems that can produce upward

shoots

and downward roots.

 

What's the difference in this case?

 

I do agree that botany would be a great addition to the curriculum.

For those living in the Bay area, there's an amazing Chinese herb garden

at the UC berkeley botanical gardens. You can see the herbs grow in

different seasons.

I've taken students there for field trips.

 

Einstein was asked if understanding how a flower goes through the

respiration cycle

makes it more or less beautiful.

 

K

[Guest guest]

Thanks Thomas,

So just to be clear: the term 'umbelliferae' has basically been

expunged? No such thing anymore? (I liked those umbels.)

Do you happen to know what apiaceae means?

I'm aware the nomenclature is changing - a real case of plus ca change?

Well, guess I'd rather have the names change than the price. :-)

 

stopping to smell the roses....still sweet,

ann

 

 

On May 28, 2009, at 9:11 PM, wrote:

 

>

>

> Ann,

>

> Umbelliferae and Apiaceae are one in the same, the latter is the

> newer name

> for the same family. About 20 years ago there was a major change in

> nomenclature in the field of botany, but it has taken a while for

> this to

> sift down to texts like this. Another note is that ¾£Ëã

> (shengma) or as you

> may know it Cimicifuga heracleifolia, C. dahurica, or C. foetida has

> also

> undergone a change and is now Actea (instead of Cimicifuga) as is

> noted in

> my book. This is somewhat common in botany as time goes on there are

> changes

> made is the nomenclature based on new information. FYI Cimicifua was

> originally part of the Actea genus but was separated out sometime in

> the

> middle of the 20th Century (sorry I don't know exactly when).

>

> So, now some of you are saying, " Even the botanists don't know the

> names. "

> or " This is too confusing, forget about it. " But I would offer that

> although

> changes like this in the botanical nomenclature somewhat common,

> they rarely

> effect the reltively few plants we use as medicine.

>

> Andrea, Very nice breakdown of the Fabeaceae (formally Leguminaceae,

> this is

> another victim of the change mentioned above) family and nice

> discussion on

> family dynamics of medicinal plants.

>

> Thomas

>

>

> Beijing, China

> Author of " Western Herbs According to Traditional : A

> Practitioners Guide "

> Check out my blog: www.sourcepointherbs.blogspot.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Stephen,

 

As a western herbalist working already in the field, I found that Latin

was much easier (although for the life of me I don't know why we use the

abstruse pharmacological Latin instead of the botanical binomial with

the part.) For one thing when I already had knowledge of a related

species, it was easier to link the Chinese herb to my internal database

with Latin. And it would help to use English as well. Many students of

Chinese medicine already know quite a bit about many Chinese herbs, but

they often don't know that they know it because the nomenclature doesn't

permit linking the information. Robert Rister's Kampo book was the

first where I heard mang xiao linked to epsom salts.

 

I have to agree that learning Pinyin names adds a whole level of

complexity. The most difficulty I had in school was that the English

wasn't English, the Pinyin (from teachers with different competencies in

the language or different areas of China and Taiwan) all merged

together, followed by the material itself.

 

 

--

Karen Vaughan, MSTOM

Licensed Acupuncturist, and Herbalist

253 Garfield Place

Brooklyn, NY 11215

 

(718) 622-6755

 

Co-Conspirator to Make the World A Better Place: Visit

http://www.heroicstories.com/ and join the conspiracy

See my Acupuncture and Herbalism website

at:http://www.byregion.net/profiles/ksvaughan2.html

 

 

" When you are in doubt, be still, and wait. When doubt no longer exists for you,

then go forward with courage. So long as mists envelop you, be still. Be still

until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists -- as it surely will.

Then act with courage " White Eagle