Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy

[Guest guest]

This is why I am going to require students to bring the textbooks to

class next semester.

 

 

On Dec 13, 2006, at 9:32 PM, wrote:

 

> But then again since we rarely require students to bring the books

> to class they may be

> well hidden from our view in student's homes and laptops.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I'm attending school and haven't heard about the DVD. I've talked to a

number of students since Mr. Flaws e-mail came, and nobody else has

heard about it.

Nevertheless, I would hate to see y'all stop publishing our textbooks...

A few observations about textbook purchases. Here, in Austin, there's

probably over 300 TCM students. I have found at least three textbooks,

normally priced at $75 +, in thrift stores for $3-$5 each. I've bought

at least three more texts through Amazon marketplace at used prices. In

spite of my thriftiness, I've still spent about $1500 on books in 1.5

years (yeah, I've gone a bit overboard).

The only complaints I've heard about textbooks is about a printing or

two of the Peter Deadman points book that had a tendency to fall apart.

Deadman's publisher also made a CD of the book, but several people I

know who bought the CD also bought the book.

The point is that I think many students are doing it right and buying

the books, but maybe there is more slippage from used books than is

being considered. Remember that about a decade ago, the recording

industry threatened record stores who sold used recordings with

suspension of their receipt of free merchandising for new recordings.

That's how much used records were hurting their bottom line.

To the publishers: Thanks for your work. And I hope your work can continue.

 

Steve Edwards

 

 

Bob Flaws wrote:

 

> Although I said I wasn't gonna post here any more, I think I need to

> post the following letter from the Council of Oriental Medical

> Publishers. Recently, Eastland Press, Paradigm Press, and Blue Poppy

> Press have learned that one or more CDs/DVDs with pirated versions of

> our copyrighten books have been/are circulating through the schools.

> This theft of intellectual property has amounted to approximately $1

> million of lost sales during 2006 to the publishers whose books appear

> on these CDs/DVDs as well as to book distributors and bookstores in

> the U.S. The following letter is the agreed upon postion of the

> Council of Oriental Medical Publishers (COMP). This letter has been

> sent to all U.S. schools of acupuncture/Chinese medicine:

>

> December 7, 20067

>

> Dear School Administrator,

>

> As publishers whose work is dedicated to the growth and advancement of

> knowledge about acupuncture and Chinese medicine, we are writing to

> tell you about a problem that may limit our ability to publish further

> books for students and practitioners. This problem, a serious and

> ongoing copyright infringement, is due to the illegal duplicating of a

> DVD disks containing upwards of 162 text books commonly used in

> schools of acupuncture and Chinese medicine. This disk has been

> actively and widely circulated through our schools and colleges to

> students from coast to coast. Publishers in our industry, as well as

> many acupuncture college book stores, have seen a significant downturn

> in their sales due to the circulation of this disk. Thus, already this

> DVD has had a direct and negative financial impact upon the

> livelihoods of many people.

>

> In our small industry, the decision to write and publish a new book on

> Chinese medicine is often, at least partially, based on the hope that

> schools such as yours may require the book for one of their classes.

> As long as there is this possibility, we publishers have more

> incentive to take the financial risk of publishing new titles. The

> impact is obvious if students are permitted to illegally duplicate

> titles and no longer purchase the actual textbooks. If allowed to

> continue, the financial consequences that are already being felt will

> affect publishers, authors, school book stores, school curricula,

> practitioners, and students throughout our industry. It also leads

> publishers to question whether they can continue to bring out new

> books or keep their current titles in print. To help all of us deal

> effectively with this problem, we ask your awareness of and

> cooperation responding to the following items.

>

> 1. Unexpected use of lap-top computers instead of textbooks in class

> and study groups.

> 2. Bound computer-printed versions of required texts.

> 3. Bound computer-printed compilations of pages from different texts.

> 4. Student papers that were clearly compiled by the electronic

> searching of textbooks including references above-and-beyond what may

> be accessed via an index.

> 5. Increased " disk exchange " activity among students.

> 6. The transfer of unusually large files on school email systems to

> which students have access.

>

> Next, please monitor any private on-line email discussion groups (list

> services) or bulletin board services for threads concerning the

> electronic exchange of electronic textbooks.

>

> A number of instructors have required their classes to bring their

> required texts to a class session. This has revealed those students

> who have not purchased the texts. These instructors asked for the

> disk copies to be handed-in and for the offending students to appear

> at a forthcoming class session with legitimate texts.

>

> Finally, we ask that you implement some sanction for those who have

> participated in this crime. The practice of medicine requires human

> beings with high ethical or moral standards. At Western medical

> schools in the U.S., such theft would be grounds for expulsion from

> the college. While you may feel that such action is impossible for

> your school, we ask that you give this request serious consideration.

> In particular, we feel that anyone involved in the distribution of

> this illegal disk, whether for free or for profit, be disciplined in

> the strongest manner that your college feels appropriate.

>

> If you have any questions about this letter or the matter in general,

> please contact any of us. . It is always our desire to work

> cooperatively with the schools and colleges in our industry to improve

> and expand the knowledge, literature, and understanding of this

> important medical tradition. We hope we can count on your support in

> return to deal with this problem swiftly and effectively.

>

> Yours sincerely,

>

> Robert Felt

> Paradigm Publications

>

> John O'Conner

> Eastland Press

>

> Bob Flaws

> Blue Poppy Enterprises, Inc.

>

> CHA readers of this letter should also note that the FBI has been

> alerted to this Federal felony, and we publishers will be seeking our

> own criminal remedies in addition to the above request asking the

> schools to sanction any of their students found to have participated

> in these illegal acts.

>

> Regretfully,

>

> Bob

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of mpplac

Wednesday, December 13, 2006 12:15 PM

As far as losses are concerned I just took a look at one

shelf of my library 27 volumes average price about $30,low ball and

the TCM books are generally the cheapest. If I use my personal

yardstick and Bob's estimate of 160 or so books is correct thats about

$4800 times the 100 dvd's you mentioned and you wind up with close to

a half a million in lost sales

 

 

 

Please see my previous post. I think you are confusing the perceived (or

estimated) value of a DVD with the actual loss that the DVD has incurred.

There is no way 100 DVD in the market could incur ½ million dollars of loss.

You are assuming that every one of the 100 people that own the DVD would

have NOT bought $4800 of books in 1 year. I ask how much does the average

student (without the DVD) spend in books a year? Your math is a little

fuzzy.

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:32 PM

 

Re: Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy

 

 

 

I'm not sure what make of this. To corolate the scope of piracy one would

have to look at

all sales sources. Does Blue Poppy, Paradigm, Eastland sell directly to the

online outlets

like Amazon where some of these sales might be going to? I do find it odd

that at my two

schools it would seem that a third of the students could be using bootlegs.

Although I

don't teach beginning classes I have only seen two bootleg books (before I

understood the

significance of them.) Has anyone seen them at PCOM which seems to have an

even

greater drop in sales of legitimate books?

 

 

 

My point exactly. I have talked to every person I know including people at

PCOM, and they have never even heard of the DVD. ZS'ev how many bootlegs

have you seen? I am not saying that it doesn't exist, obviously it is

rampant at some schools. But if one is trying to correlate 60% sales drop

from PCOM's bookstore with a DVD, you would think that PCOM would have many

copies. I think there are many factors.

 

I remember about 5-6 years ago, publishers were saying " that people just

aren't buying books anymore, the sales have dropped off. " Instead of just

looking at the sales decreases from a school bookstore from 2005-2006, one

should look at the sales in the last ten years. I remember when I was buying

books as a student, people were not very computer literate and there was

hardly any used books (especially online)! Every year that is changing more

and more rapidly. I am not surprised that REDWING books have decreased in

sales, why would a student pay full price for a book when most of the time

they get it cheaper and no shipping charge from another source. Every year

more and more people figure this out, and more and more search engines are

created that help the end-user!

 

I remember in a class I taught last year, very few students bought the books

(they signed up for) from the school bookstore, the school was mad because

they had to return the books. What happened? Well, most found out they could

buy them cheaper online and some bought them from students from the previous

semester.

 

REDWING is still a middle man. I think without the DVD, the sales would be

decreasing (due to competition of the internet). The number of actually

books sold by the publishers (Eastland, Paradigm, BluePoppy) are really the

only numbers that we should look at (to correlate the impact of the DVD). To

really analyze the situation one must look at the statistics in the last

5-10 years. Then one can see the trends, and really see the impact of the

DVD.

 

Just some further thoughts.

 

-

 

 

But then again since we rarely require students to bring the books to class

they may be

well hidden from our view in student's homes and laptops.

 

doug

 

>

> The sales decline was difficult to explain as a fluctuation caused by

> any identifiable commercial activity. In fact, no such activity was

> underway. To examine the problem we called schools around the country

> and asked for their observations, sample reports are as follows:

>

> State School 2006 Decline Percent Decline

> CA Academy of Chinese Culture & Health Science 3,648.00 -74%

> WA Bastyr University Bookstore 3,971.00 -9%

> FL Dragon Rises College of Oriental Medicine 901.00 -15%

> FL East West College of Natural Medicine 8,444.00 -45%

> CA Emperor's College of T.O.M. 4,347.00 -33%

> OR NCNM Bookstore 4,692.00 -31%

> NY New York College of Health Prof Bookstore 19,968.00 -65%

> MN Northwestern Health Sciences University 20,505.00 -33%

> CA Santa Barbara College 11,757.00 -88% *

> CA South Baylo University Bookstore 474.00 -10%

> MD Meeting Point Bookstore 5,773.00 -23%

> CA Yo San University 9.773.00 -34%

> CA Pacific College (San Diego) 47,100.00 -60%

> NY Pacific College (New York) 31,649.00 -49%

> IL Pacific College (Chicago) 16,102.00 -35%

>

> *Santa Barbra College is closing; it is not clear whether the huge

> decline in book sales was a contributing factor or an outcome of a

> closure notice.

>

>

>

> Robert L. Felt

> Redwing Book Company

> 202 Bendix Drive

> Taos NM 87571

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Steven,

 

 

 

I think your student experience is similar to many. I have also heard that

50% students drop out of the profession within 5 years of grduating ( I also

heard that 50% students that enroll drop out) - Anyway I know that many many

people drop out. Overtime, this drop out rate, and the ease of selling books

now through the internet, would only create a huge surplus of used books.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Steve Edwards

Wednesday, December 13, 2006 11:48 PM

 

Re: Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy

 

 

 

I'm attending school and haven't heard about the DVD. I've talked to a

number of students since Mr. Flaws e-mail came, and nobody else has

heard about it.

Nevertheless, I would hate to see y'all stop publishing our textbooks...

A few observations about textbook purchases. Here, in Austin, there's

probably over 300 TCM students. I have found at least three textbooks,

normally priced at $75 +, in thrift stores for $3-$5 each. I've bought

at least three more texts through Amazon marketplace at used prices. In

spite of my thriftiness, I've still spent about $1500 on books in 1.5

years (yeah, I've gone a bit overboard).

The only complaints I've heard about textbooks is about a printing or

two of the Peter Deadman points book that had a tendency to fall apart.

Deadman's publisher also made a CD of the book, but several people I

know who bought the CD also bought the book.

The point is that I think many students are doing it right and buying

the books, but maybe there is more slippage from used books than is

being considered. Remember that about a decade ago, the recording

industry threatened record stores who sold used recordings with

suspension of their receipt of free merchandising for new recordings.

That's how much used records were hurting their bottom line.

To the publishers: Thanks for your work. And I hope your work can continue.

 

Steve Edwards

 

Bob Flaws wrote:

 

> Although I said I wasn't gonna post here any more, I think I need to

> post the following letter from the Council of Oriental Medical

> Publishers. Recently, Eastland Press, Paradigm Press, and Blue Poppy

> Press have learned that one or more CDs/DVDs with pirated versions of

> our copyrighten books have been/are circulating through the schools.

> This theft of intellectual property has amounted to approximately $1

> million of lost sales during 2006 to the publishers whose books appear

> on these CDs/DVDs as well as to book distributors and bookstores in

> the U.S. The following letter is the agreed upon postion of the

> Council of Oriental Medical Publishers (COMP). This letter has been

> sent to all U.S. schools of acupuncture/Chinese medicine:

>

> December 7, 20067

>

> Dear School Administrator,

>

> As publishers whose work is dedicated to the growth and advancement of

> knowledge about acupuncture and Chinese medicine, we are writing to

> tell you about a problem that may limit our ability to publish further

> books for students and practitioners. This problem, a serious and

> ongoing copyright infringement, is due to the illegal duplicating of a

> DVD disks containing upwards of 162 text books commonly used in

> schools of acupuncture and Chinese medicine. This disk has been

> actively and widely circulated through our schools and colleges to

> students from coast to coast. Publishers in our industry, as well as

> many acupuncture college book stores, have seen a significant downturn

> in their sales due to the circulation of this disk. Thus, already this

> DVD has had a direct and negative financial impact upon the

> livelihoods of many people.

>

> In our small industry, the decision to write and publish a new book on

> Chinese medicine is often, at least partially, based on the hope that

> schools such as yours may require the book for one of their classes.

> As long as there is this possibility, we publishers have more

> incentive to take the financial risk of publishing new titles. The

> impact is obvious if students are permitted to illegally duplicate

> titles and no longer purchase the actual textbooks. If allowed to

> continue, the financial consequences that are already being felt will

> affect publishers, authors, school book stores, school curricula,

> practitioners, and students throughout our industry. It also leads

> publishers to question whether they can continue to bring out new

> books or keep their current titles in print. To help all of us deal

> effectively with this problem, we ask your awareness of and

> cooperation responding to the following items.

>

> 1. Unexpected use of lap-top computers instead of textbooks in class

> and study groups.

> 2. Bound computer-printed versions of required texts.

> 3. Bound computer-printed compilations of pages from different texts.

> 4. Student papers that were clearly compiled by the electronic

> searching of textbooks including references above-and-beyond what may

> be accessed via an index.

> 5. Increased " disk exchange " activity among students.

> 6. The transfer of unusually large files on school email systems to

> which students have access.

>

> Next, please monitor any private on-line email discussion groups (list

> services) or bulletin board services for threads concerning the

> electronic exchange of electronic textbooks.

>

> A number of instructors have required their classes to bring their

> required texts to a class session. This has revealed those students

> who have not purchased the texts. These instructors asked for the

> disk copies to be handed-in and for the offending students to appear

> at a forthcoming class session with legitimate texts.

>

> Finally, we ask that you implement some sanction for those who have

> participated in this crime. The practice of medicine requires human

> beings with high ethical or moral standards. At Western medical

> schools in the U.S., such theft would be grounds for expulsion from

> the college. While you may feel that such action is impossible for

> your school, we ask that you give this request serious consideration.

> In particular, we feel that anyone involved in the distribution of

> this illegal disk, whether for free or for profit, be disciplined in

> the strongest manner that your college feels appropriate.

>

> If you have any questions about this letter or the matter in general,

> please contact any of us. . It is always our desire to work

> cooperatively with the schools and colleges in our industry to improve

> and expand the knowledge, literature, and understanding of this

> important medical tradition. We hope we can count on your support in

> return to deal with this problem swiftly and effectively.

>

> Yours sincerely,

>

> Robert Felt

> Paradigm Publications

>

> John O'Conner

> Eastland Press

>

> Bob Flaws

> Blue Poppy Enterprises, Inc.

>

> CHA readers of this letter should also note that the FBI has been

> alerted to this Federal felony, and we publishers will be seeking our

> own criminal remedies in addition to the above request asking the

> schools to sanction any of their students found to have participated

> in these illegal acts.

>

> Regretfully,

>

> Bob

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

" It is pretty mind-boggling that someone went to the trouble to pirate

so many books. "

 

I appears the guilty party hired an off-shore company (e.g., in India)

to do all the scanning.

 

" 1. End-users of the material are complicit in the piracy, Just as

individual users of file-sharing programs were subject to lawsuits by

the the record companies, students and practitioners who are in

possession of this disk may find themselves in some seriously hot water. "

 

COMP is asking that schools expel such students. However,

realistically, I doubt they will. I favor some kind of amnesty program

that, if students turn in their pirated CDs, we won't take legal

action against them.

 

" 2. The larger issue is an overarching one. The era of print is

almost over. "

 

I'm not sure I agree with you on this. The codex is one of the most

user-friendly technologies ever developed. I don't think the codex is

going to disappear any time soon. "

 

" A couple years ago, I began to try and impress on potential authors

that the market for anything they wrote was quite small and it was

unlikely that they would ever see a return on their efforts unless

their books became required texts for schools. Even then, it is

speaking fees and workshops where the real money lies for most writers. "

 

Here I completely agree, unless you have a very large base for

residuals (i.e., royalties) such as I do. Writing books is the main

way to become an " expert " who then is paid for that expertise by

teaching and other such gigs.

 

" People need to come to terms with new models of distribution that

generate revenues from web-based advertising rather than sales of hard

copy materials. "

 

I also agree with this. In 2007, Blue Poppy will institute a new, FREE

Web-based model of distrubting information to the profession.

 

" 3. It is entirely understandable that students would opt to pirate

their texts rather than pay for them. The cost of acupuncture school

is obscene relative to the lifetime earning potential of graduates. "

 

I agree that the cost of acupuncture school has gotten very high

relative to what most acupuncturists earn. But this is no excuse for

illegal activities which directly hurt other people. This is not a

victimless crime. People have already lost jobs that fed their

families because of this. Last night we had our Blue Poppy Xmas party

(movie and a dinner). Every employee there and many of their

spouses/significant others said how happy they were working for us A)

because of how great a working envirnoment we provide and B) because

of our generosity as employers. There were more than 20 people around

the table in some way dependent on the success of our business.

 

In any case, we don't need to bash the schools here over their high

tuitions. They are also using a business model which no longer really

works in terms of the bigger picture. They are caught in a bind as

much as everyone else involved in our profession. Tuition-based

medical education just doesn't work. This has already been proven.

Unfortunately, none of us has come up with a different, more workable

model for our profession.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Jason,

I haven't seen any yet, but I only became aware of this at the

end of the semester. My eyes will be wide open in the coming semester.

 

 

On Dec 14, 2006, at 7:37 AM, wrote:

 

> My point exactly. I have talked to every person I know including

> people at

> PCOM, and they have never even heard of the DVD. Z'ev how many

> bootlegs

> have you seen? I am not saying that it doesn't exist, obviously it is

> rampant at some schools. But if one is trying to correlate 60%

> sales drop

> from PCOM's bookstore with a DVD, you would think that PCOM would

> have many

> copies. I think there are many factors

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

I agree with many of your suggestions and I appreciate your

uncompromising ethical stand. However, when it comes to:

 

" Administrators who are willing to take the hit in tuition if those

codes are violated. "

 

This is going to be a hard sell. Just think of the recently announced

closing of the Santa Barbara school. This is one of the oldest schools

in the country. However, they could not sustain even two semesters of

insufficient enrollment. They lost some of their second semester class

and didn't meet their enrollment targets for their first semester

class. Bam! They're history.

 

Until we have a different model of funding our professional education,

schools are going to have a hard time expelling students. I'm not

excusing this situation. Certainly, students should be expelled for

breaking Federal copyright laws. But I am trying to be realistic in

terms of what's actually economically possible. After all, all of

this, including the piracy, comes down to economics.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Dear Group,

 

 

 

This just in.. Here is further insightful data. According to a local ACU

school, their bookstore has been seeing large decreases in sales! But this

has been going on for a few years. And furthermore, no one at the school,

has or even heard of the DVD. Many students also report ALWAYS trying to buy

books online (used or new) before purchasing from the bookstore, because the

former sources are cheaper. I think we should rethink how important the

below bookstore stats are (IMO).

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Thursday, December 14, 2006 8:38 AM

 

RE: Re: Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy

 

 

 

> State School 2006 Decline Percent Decline

> CA Academy of Chinese Culture & Health Science 3,648.00 -74%

> WA Bastyr University Bookstore 3,971.00 -9%

> FL Dragon Rises College of Oriental Medicine 901.00 -15%

> FL East West College of Natural Medicine 8,444.00 -45%

> CA Emperor's College of T.O.M. 4,347.00 -33%

> OR NCNM Bookstore 4,692.00 -31%

> NY New York College of Health Prof Bookstore 19,968.00 -65%

> MN Northwestern Health Sciences University 20,505.00 -33%

> CA Santa Barbara College 11,757.00 -88% *

> CA South Baylo University Bookstore 474.00 -10%

> MD Meeting Point Bookstore 5,773.00 -23%

> CA Yo San University 9.773.00 -34%

> CA Pacific College (San Diego) 47,100.00 -60%

> NY Pacific College (New York) 31,649.00 -49%

> IL Pacific College (Chicago) 16,102.00 -35%

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

I'm trying to put myself in the publishers/authors/business owners

position. If they are claiming that the loss is there I'm inclined to

believe them. I used my own bookshelf as a yardstick and can

certainly see how the numbers can be true. They are the ones who are

going to have to make the choices to lay off employees, not give a

holiday bonus, discontinue employee benefits, or more importantly as

Bob has already mentioned discontinue publishing. As I mentioned in my

previous post what actions/solutions would you suggest to support the

publishers and authors who make these materials available? I've made a

couple of suggestions. Kick them around, ridicule them, whatever, but

I'm inclined to believe the people who have been providing us a

valuable service for years. Enough!

Regards,

Michael

 

 

 

 

wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of mpplac

> Wednesday, December 13, 2006 12:15 PM

> As far as losses are concerned I just took a look at one

> shelf of my library 27 volumes average price about $30,low ball and

> the TCM books are generally the cheapest. If I use my personal

> yardstick and Bob's estimate of 160 or so books is correct thats about

> $4800 times the 100 dvd's you mentioned and you wind up with close to

> a half a million in lost sales

>

>

>

> Please see my previous post. I think you are confusing the perceived (or

> estimated) value of a DVD with the actual loss that the DVD has

incurred.

> There is no way 100 DVD in the market could incur ½ million dollars

of loss.

> You are assuming that every one of the 100 people that own the DVD would

> have NOT bought $4800 of books in 1 year. I ask how much does the

average

> student (without the DVD) spend in books a year? Your math is a little

> fuzzy.

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob,

I do agree that the point you mentioned is a crux for many

institutions. I have extensive experience in budgets, enrollment,

and student ethics issues as I was a trustee of Bastyr for 5 years.

However, the chips have to fall where they will. I foresee a

contraction in the number of schools in the not to distant future for

quite a few reasons. Poor business models, poor diversification of

risk, increased competition from main stream medical schools (how many

of you wouldn't jump at the chance to teach in well funded medical

school with all the trimmings), natural contraction (the yang phase is

over). There are a myriad of reasons I see that should have current

administrators very concerned. For the schools that survive and

prosper I think there will still be many well qualified candidates to

enroll. The failure of Santa Barbara is unfortunate but there are

many factors as to why that may have happened and none or maybe some

of us have the complete story. I do want to suggest that the

continued health of the profession does not rely on the schools output

but by the professions guiding the schools. This is an conversation

that has been hashed over time and again and here is not the place. My

perception of the difference between what a student needs to know to

pass a national or state exam versus what they need to operate

successfully in a professional service environment is huge. I think

that may be part of that 50% 5 year attrition rate bandied about in

another post. Regardless good luck in resolving this issue, and happy

holidays.

Regards,

Michael

 

 

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> Michael,

>

> I agree with many of your suggestions and I appreciate your

> uncompromising ethical stand. However, when it comes to:

>

> " Administrators who are willing to take the hit in tuition if those

> codes are violated. "

>

> This is going to be a hard sell. Just think of the recently announced

> closing of the Santa Barbara school. This is one of the oldest schools

> in the country. However, they could not sustain even two semesters of

> insufficient enrollment. They lost some of their second semester class

> and didn't meet their enrollment targets for their first semester

> class. Bam! They're history.

>

> Until we have a different model of funding our professional education,

> schools are going to have a hard time expelling students. I'm not

> excusing this situation. Certainly, students should be expelled for

> breaking Federal copyright laws. But I am trying to be realistic in

> terms of what's actually economically possible. After all, all of

> this, including the piracy, comes down to economics.

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

So the bookstore stats don't tell the whole story. What's your

problem? The issue here is copyright infringement, a Federal beef. We

absolutely know that the CD(s) exist. We have physical proof. We know

where at least one of these CDs originated and by whom. We know that

these CDs were available at the 2006 Pacific Symposium, since that's

where we got our copy. Whether it has cost our industry, $10K or $1

mil, this is an illegal activity.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

 

 

I agree with you, this is criminal charge, but these are two separate issues

we are discussing. For example if the CD has caused 10k in loss yes this is

a travesty, but if the companies are reporting 1/2 mil in losses then we

need to look at the larger picture.

 

 

 

Assessing the impact correctly is more important, because as Thomas and I

are trying to point out, this is a much bigger problem (with the profession)

then just a CD. IMO, the CD does not account for the numbers that have been

suggested. So what does? Well we have stated some other possibilities, that

are worth considering. The calculated loss is not just from a CD. And the

state and future of our profession is IMO the bigger picture. Trust me I

want all the publishers and their families to eat, I love what you guys do!

So don't read this wrong, I am not discounting that there was a criminal

offense. I am not saying this is not a blow to the publishers. I think

everything should be done to nip this thing in the bud, but I am not about

to believe that all the problems with books sales etc are coming from this

CD.

 

 

 

So my problem is, that when I read a letter spraying all these statistics

around that really have nothing to do with the problem at hand. It is just

false misrepresentation of the true events. I think we should be as truthful

as possible as to what is going on, and look beyond the obvious. Yes the CD

exists, ok what else is the problem!

 

 

 

Just my two cents. I am done now. I need to get back to work.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Bob Flaws

Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:06 PM

 

Re: Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy

 

 

 

Jason,

 

So the bookstore stats don't tell the whole story. What's your

problem? The issue here is copyright infringement, a Federal beef. We

absolutely know that the CD(s) exist. We have physical proof. We know

where at least one of these CDs originated and by whom. We know that

these CDs were available at the 2006 Pacific Symposium, since that's

where we got our copy. Whether it has cost our industry, $10K or $1

mil, this is an illegal activity.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Let's all agree that there are many separate issues here. The first is really

not open for

debate and that is the piracy - theft that has happened. At one school I heard

that

students were " sharing PDF's " where I simply thought no illegal books or DVD's

were

circulating. So much for my naivety. So piracy is an issue that is simply of

economic and

ethical forces. I don't think anyone disagrees with the bottom line here.

 

When I put a price on the Point Location DVD we made it was higher than what it

could

have been. But I factored in the piracy concerns. Indeed I was naive enough to

think " old-

school " that we would have a library rate, one that would allow the librarian to

make

multiple copies. Well of course, at one school, the librarian who was also a

recent grad,

trotted down to the bookstore and bought the cheaper version and then made

copies for

the shelf. We sold a few at that school at first, but haven't for at that school

for more than

a year. All my sales are through Redwing and I thank Bob for that.

 

 

Another is much broader and is that of books and our educational system. To some

degree these are inter-related. I know that as a teacher, my popularity

increases in

proportion to the number of hand-outs I give out. (I know I felt the same way in

school.)

As Bob Felt alludes to in another forum, the interpretation of the material

becomes more

valuable than the original material. It also shows the student what the teacher

values. And

the teacher who is a " collector " (and disseminator) often rises above the

interpretor.

 

The other issue about this is our absolutely backward method of evaluating

students...

multiple choice tests. Because our National and State Boards have adopted this

so will the

schools to some extent. But also because the schools are afraid that they will

let through

the maybe 1 % of students who actually fail classes they continue with a testing

system

that brings down half of the students and give the impression that TCM is

picking between

A B C or D.

 

And teachers continue to use the multiple choice because its' clear cut and they

don't have

to defend the grading against students complaints. The teachers, paid by

classroom hours

for the most part, spend less time per class assuming they have taught it

before.

 

The other issue is that of books. And sometimes it's as pragmatic as our English

Language. When my Chinese friends take out their Shang Han Lun's or " Bensky's "

it is a

thin paperback weighing about a tenth of our volumes. So that's just the

practical aspect.

 

I didn't want to go on so long... just separate the issues.

[Guest guest]

This stat that 50% of us drop out of the profession after five years was

stated in an article in AT last month by Lisa Rohleder, one of the co

founders of Working Class Acupuncture. I asked her where she got that

statistic and she said that she didn't know, but that this number has been

quoted frequently.

 

I'm just curious as to where this statistic began and on what information it

is based. Anybody know?

 

-al.

 

On 12/14/06, wrote:

>

> Steven,

>

> I think your student experience is similar to many. I have also heard that

> 50% students drop out of the profession within 5 years of grduating

>

 

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The last time I checked with the California state board, over 50% of

the licenses were inactive ( a few years back).

 

 

On Dec 14, 2006, at 5:26 PM, Al Stone wrote:

 

> This stat that 50% of us drop out of the profession after five

> years was

> stated in an article in AT last month by Lisa Rohleder, one of the co

> founders of Working Class Acupuncture. I asked her where she got that

> statistic and she said that she didn't know, but that this number

> has been

> quoted frequently.

>

> I'm just curious as to where this statistic began and on what

> information it

> is based. Anybody know?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Al,

 

 

 

Just to be clear, I have to source either for this number, but first heard

it when I was in school. Maybe it is an urban myth. But while in school, I

did see student after student drop out every semester. I think my initial

class was 75 (?) and I think we ended with 40 (my estimation). So you

figure, 5 years after graduation it seems reasonable that from that initial

bunch (starting class) that only 50% are actually practicing.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of Al Stone

Thursday, December 14, 2006 6:26 PM

 

Re: Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy

 

 

 

This stat that 50% of us drop out of the profession after five years was

stated in an article in AT last month by Lisa Rohleder, one of the co

founders of Working Class Acupuncture. I asked her where she got that

statistic and she said that she didn't know, but that this number has been

quoted frequently.

 

I'm just curious as to where this statistic began and on what information it

is based. Anybody know?

 

-al.

 

On 12/14/06, <@chinesemed

<%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com> wrote:

>

> Steven,

>

> I think your student experience is similar to many. I have also heard that

> 50% students drop out of the profession within 5 years of grduating

>

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

 

 

Just to be clear, I never said that I don’t believe the publishers have

incurred loss. And if they say 1 million (or .5 million) then fine…. I am

also sorry if you feel I was ridiculing your suggestions, I was not. I was

merely questioning your logic in calculating the math behind the loss for

the CD.

 

 

 

Finally of course we all sympathize with them and value their services

dearly. But happy thoughts will not solve the problems.

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of mpplac

Thursday, December 14, 2006 11:11 AM

 

Re: Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy

 

 

 

Jason,

I'm trying to put myself in the publishers/authors/business owners

position. If they are claiming that the loss is there I'm inclined to

believe them. I used my own bookshelf as a yardstick and can

certainly see how the numbers can be true. They are the ones who are

going to have to make the choices to lay off employees, not give a

holiday bonus, discontinue employee benefits, or more importantly as

Bob has already mentioned discontinue publishing. As I mentioned in my

previous post what actions/solutions would you suggest to support the

publishers and authors who make these materials available? I've made a

couple of suggestions. Kick them around, ridicule them, whatever, but

I'm inclined to believe the people who have been providing us a

valuable service for years. Enough!

Regards,

Michael

 

wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> @ <%40>

 

> [@ <%40>

] On Behalf Of mpplac

> Wednesday, December 13, 2006 12:15 PM

> As far as losses are concerned I just took a look at one

> shelf of my library 27 volumes average price about $30,low ball and

> the TCM books are generally the cheapest. If I use my personal

> yardstick and Bob's estimate of 160 or so books is correct thats about

> $4800 times the 100 dvd's you mentioned and you wind up with close to

> a half a million in lost sales

>

>

>

> Please see my previous post. I think you are confusing the perceived (or

> estimated) value of a DVD with the actual loss that the DVD has

incurred.

> There is no way 100 DVD in the market could incur ½ million dollars

of loss.

> You are assuming that every one of the 100 people that own the DVD would

> have NOT bought $4800 of books in 1 year. I ask how much does the

average

> student (without the DVD) spend in books a year? Your math is a little

> fuzzy.

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

that strikes me as dishonest, " quoting " a " statistic " for which one has no

basis. thus, it may well have no basis at all, but it served her purpose so it's

" official. " in the " real " world ethical people don't throw out stats 'less they

can back them up. if we want to be respected, oughtn't we do the same?

respectfully, lynn

 

[al] wrote:

This stat that 50% of us drop out of the profession after five years was

stated in an article in AT last month by Lisa Rohleder, one of the co

founders of Working Class Acupuncture. I asked her where she got that

statistic and she said that she didn't know, but that this number has been

quoted frequently.

 

I'm just curious as to where this statistic began and on what information it

is based. Anybody know?

 

-al.

 

On 12/14/06, wrote:

>

> Steven,

>

> I think your student experience is similar to many. I have also heard that

> 50% students drop out of the profession within 5 years of grduating

>

 

 

--

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Al,

 

Frankly, IMHO, this is an urban myth which I myself have been guiltly

of repeating. I don't think this is a statistic that has any

verifiable substantian. Interestingly, it is the same statistic that

the DCs also bandy about, also without substantiation. As far as I

know, no really meaningful acupuncture education outcome studies have

ever been conducted.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

I have never seen a reliable statistic on this issue and doubt that one really

exists. However, those of us who taught at or still teach at professional

schools and did so or have done so for many, many years, know full well that the

attrition rate in this profession is quite high. Is it higher than other

professions? I couldn't say. However, based upon reports to me by dozens of

students over the years (well over a hundred), It nevertheless seems

unreasonable that huge numbers of those who have graduated in the past decade

either move on to other fields, continue to work part time in another field, or

resign themselves to a meager income. And this fate is often realized by the

fifth year of practice. Anecdotes don't make a fact. As they say in research,

multiple anecdotes are merely that. However, anecdotes often form the basis of a

hypothesis which can be tested. It would be a simple matter to test this one,

but none of the vested interests with the resources to do so would be se

rved by a negative finding, so we are stuck with rumors.

 

I know that I made a decent living relative to many of my peers and former

classmates, but it was never enough to justify the amount my education cost, nor

the time and effort necessary to earn it. I spent 13 years in the field after

graduation. When I decided to parlay my experience in classroom education,

instructional design, and educational technology into a new career, I landed in

a position in a completely new career that paid more than I ever made in OM

(plus all the health benefits, etc., that one rarely is able to obtain as either

a practitioner or teacher). And that was just 7 months after leaving the field

of OM. Spending $75-100,000 on one's education in order to possibly be earning

50K after 5 years does not seem worth it to me unless you are in it for a labor

of love. Luckily that was the case with me for a long time. But when I fell out

of love, there was really no good reason to stick around anymore. For those of

you who have done much better through either luck, sa

vvy, or deception, good for you. But don't deceive yourselves. You are a

minority in the field.

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" J. Lynn Detamore " <lynndetamore

> that strikes me as dishonest, " quoting " a " statistic " for which one has no

> basis. thus, it may well have no basis at all, but it served her purpose so

it's

> " official. " in the " real " world ethical people don't throw out stats 'less

they

> can back them up. if we want to be respected, oughtn't we do the same?

> respectfully, lynn

>

> [al] wrote:

> This stat that 50% of us drop out of the profession after five years was

> stated in an article in AT last month by Lisa Rohleder, one of the co

> founders of Working Class Acupuncture. I asked her where she got that

> statistic and she said that she didn't know, but that this number has been

> quoted frequently.

>

> I'm just curious as to where this statistic began and on what information it

> is based. Anybody know?

>

> -al.

>

> On 12/14/06, wrote:

> >

> > Steven,

> >

> > I think your student experience is similar to many. I have also heard that

> > 50% students drop out of the profession within 5 years of grduating

> >

>

>

> --

>

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, wrote:

> For those of you who have done much better through either luck, sa

> vvy, or deception, good for you. But don't deceive yourselves. You

are > a minority in the field.

 

I have delivered pizza, done web design and development, carpentry,

taught tai chi and a number of other odd jobs in order to keep

practicing. All the while supporting a family. Today, I have a

reasonably good practice. But it did not come about from " luck, savy,

or deception " . It came about from perseverance, staying in one town

long enough to be recognized for what I am and do, and from a genuine

desire to help others.

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

I would say purely anecdotally from my personal experience, (and info

from alumni associations) that the statistic mentioned wouldnt be that

far from the truth. If you think thats bad, then you should pity the poor

old naturopathy students who do a three to four year degree to obtain

the dubious honour of working for $12 an hour in a health food store.

The majority of those of us who did go into practice immediately are

finding it a hard row to hoe, and this in a country where we dont need to

worry about things like health benefits that come with a job!

I recently saw some statistics (from the Australian Bureau of Statistics)

that showed that 98 to 99% of dental and med students are employed

in their field after graduation. Bit of a no-brainer there. Ive got a family

to support, so thats my next option, and then I can support my

acupuncture habit.

Regards,

Lea.

, " fbernall "

<fbernall wrote:

>

> , @ wrote:

> > For those of you who have done much better through either luck, sa

> > vvy, or deception, good for you. But don't deceive yourselves. You

> are > a minority in the field.

>

> I have delivered pizza, done web design and development, carpentry,

> taught tai chi and a number of other odd jobs in order to keep

> practicing. All the while supporting a family. Today, I have a

> reasonably good practice. But it did not come about from " luck, savy,

> or deception " . It came about from perseverance, staying in one town

> long enough to be recognized for what I am and do, and from a

genuine

> desire to help others.

>

> Fernando

>

[Guest guest]

Right on, Fernando. People are not used to having to fight to make a

living on something that stirs their hearts, but as the Yi Jing says,

" perseverance furthers " .

 

 

On Dec 15, 2006, at 6:48 PM, fbernall wrote:

 

> , wrote:

> > For those of you who have done much better through either luck, sa

> > vvy, or deception, good for you. But don't deceive yourselves. You

> are > a minority in the field.

>

> I have delivered pizza, done web design and development, carpentry,

> taught tai chi and a number of other odd jobs in order to keep

> practicing. All the while supporting a family. Today, I have a

> reasonably good practice. But it did not come about from " luck, savy,

> or deception " . It came about from perseverance, staying in one town

> long enough to be recognized for what I am and do, and from a genuine

> desire to help others.

>

> Fernando

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medical Textbook Piracy is not occurring in a vacuum. It is

happening within a context of piracy of music, movies, and other types

of audio and visual media.

 

There will be no stopping of this piracy no matter how many people get

busted. The recording and movie industries have battled against this

for years and they are much better funded than CM publisher will ever be.

 

To wag accusing fingers and talk of moral turpitude is to ignore what

is happening around us. I treasure each person that I meet that has

an integrity that I can trust.

 

All those working parents just did not/do not have time to teach their

children about work, integrity etc. Now those children have grown up

and go to schools of higher education.

 

 

Demanding student to bring their books to class is likely to only

anger them thoroughly.

 

Asking the FBI to investigate will probably bring no more that

rudimentary actions unless you give them names and addresses. They

have a pretty extensive " to do list " these days.

 

Explaining to students how much effort and time goes into creating

books will have a greater effect than any punitive measures.

 

Figuring out value added services for book purchasers will be a

possible way out of this dilemna. For example, buy this book and you

can search through it online with your personal passcode or you can

join a discussion list with others who are studying the book.

 

In the long run, I think that exposure to books through computer

screens will lead to greater sales of the truly useful and unique

books. Nothing can ruin one's concentration more effectively than

reading extended material on a computer screen. I will only look at a

book on a computer screen long enough to determine if it is worth buying.

 

I want to thank all the writers and publishers for the many fine book

published (I will ignore the many not so fine ones). And I am happy to

have many of them in the clinic library so I can refer to them often.

 

I also want to say that I am very sorry that you are going through a

difficult period where you will not receive all the rewards for your

hard work that are due. I hope that once the anger is over that

creative solutions will be discovered so we can all move forward.

 

I also want to thank Jason for asking difficult questions and making

some valuable points about the numbers being used.

 

Thank you,

 

Duncan Echelson

Austin, TX

 

 

, " Bob Flaws "

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

>

> Jason,

>

> So the bookstore stats don't tell the whole story. What's your

> problem? The issue here is copyright infringement, a Federal beef. We

> absolutely know that the CD(s) exist. We have physical proof. We know

> where at least one of these CDs originated and by whom. We know that

> these CDs were available at the 2006 Pacific Symposium, since that's

> where we got our copy. Whether it has cost our industry, $10K or $1

> mil, this is an illegal activity.

>

> Bob

>