Guest guest Posted September 28, 2006 Report Share Posted September 28, 2006 , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > Lea, > > Your point about adjusting dosages based on patient size (up OR down) > is well taken. I find that this factor is often overlooked. Adjusting > dose based on age is also important, especially as the population > using Chinese medicine ages. Thankyou for your reply. In which direction would you recommend adjusting doses in more elderly patients? Im thinking it would be condition dependent, but any thoughts? Lea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2006 Report Share Posted September 29, 2006 Lea, Because of decline in liver and kidney function, drugs are not metabolized and excreted as quickly. Therefore, the general principle in medicine is to reduce the dosage. Blue Poppy has tables with weight and age dosage guidelines on our website at www.bluepoppy.com Bob , " Lea Starck " <leabun1 wrote: > > , " Bob Flaws " > <pemachophel2001@> wrote: > > > > Lea, > > > > Your point about adjusting dosages based on patient size (up OR down) > > is well taken. I find that this factor is often overlooked. Adjusting > > dose based on age is also important, especially as the population > > using Chinese medicine ages. > > Thankyou for your reply. In which direction would you recommend > adjusting doses in more elderly patients? Im thinking it would be condition > dependent, but any thoughts? > > Lea. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2006 Report Share Posted September 29, 2006 , " Lea Starck " <leabun1 wrote: > > Re: Large doses of herbs. > > I would like to discuss two points. The first is that in China, the quality > of the herbs used is often much poorer than that which is used here in > Australia. It is true that wealthier countries tend to buy up higher grades of many medicinals, while many mainland Chinese hospitals and pharmacies are left with more affordable but lower-quality herbs. However, it is also important to keep in mind that historically most medicinals were wildcrafted or grown organically on small-scale family farms. It is only now that the population is so huge that agricultural practices have stepped up to meet demand by having huge farming conglomerates, pesticides, chemical fertilizers, etc. Nonetheless, many of the doses that were recorded in all of our cherished books evolved at a time when the herbs were relatively clean and potent; still about 50% of what we use is wild-crafted to this day. Of course, there are regions that produce superior products, and that would have always influenced dosage long before the modern agricultural revolution. However, quality herbs may have greater qualitative efficacy, not simply greater potency per gram. If you eat inferior ginseng, you can get an effect by eating more, but if you eat superior ginseng, there is a qualitative difference beyond the quantitative difference of a lower required dose. If you think about other natural products.... If you eat garden-picked carrots vs. conventional store-bought ones, the homegrown ones are far superior in quality, but the actual quantity that you use is the same. Fresh backyard chicken is immeasurably better than mass-market store-bought chicken; the quality is far superior but you still eat the same quantity. It's not like you can just increase the dose of the generic chicken or decrease the dose of the organic chicken to match the effects. So I'm just pointing out that even though the current domestic products used in China are relatively poor in some ways, remember that many of the dose ranges were established in times when the herbs were not grown at an industrial scale with all manners of chemicals. The old du shen tang actually was based on 30 grams of wild ginseng, there are probably few people in the world today who have ever eaten 30 grams of wild ginseng over the course of their entire life. Just because quality is poor now in poor places, we must not assume that it always was or always will be. Or that the doses recommended originally were based on the current poor quality domestic stuff. Mind you, they do dose fairly highly in some parts of China. But the dosing habits are often regional- I noticed that many doctors in Sichuan dose fairly highly, for example. However, it is worth noting that Taiwan is one of the places that buys up the high-quality products, yet they still dose their formulas higher than most people do in the USA. So even though they are using the export-quality stuff, the doses aren't cut in half. Dosing habits vary more by regional trends than they do because of compensation in quality, I believe. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2006 Report Share Posted September 29, 2006 I did a quick review of my notebooks of the formulas from the City Beijing Hospital, Hepatitis and Dermatology departments and the dosages are about the same or 3 grams above what we - I normally might use here. The exception seems to be huang qi which is up to 100 grams in the hepatitis department. doug , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus wrote: > > , " Lea Starck " <leabun1@> > wrote: > > > > Re: Large doses of herbs. > > > > I would like to discuss two points. The first is that in China, the > quality > > of the herbs used is often much poorer than that which is used here in > > Australia. > > It is true that wealthier countries tend to buy up higher grades of > many medicinals, while many mainland Chinese hospitals and pharmacies > are left with more affordable but lower-quality herbs. However, it is > also important to keep in mind that historically most medicinals were > wildcrafted or grown organically on small-scale family farms. It is > only now that the population is so huge that agricultural practices > have stepped up to meet demand by having huge farming conglomerates, > pesticides, chemical fertilizers, etc. Nonetheless, many of the doses > that were recorded in all of our cherished books evolved at a time > when the herbs were relatively clean and potent; still about 50% of > what we use is wild-crafted to this day. > > Of course, there are regions that produce superior products, and that > would have always influenced dosage long before the modern > agricultural revolution. However, quality herbs may have greater > qualitative efficacy, not simply greater potency per gram. If you eat > inferior ginseng, you can get an effect by eating more, but if you eat > superior ginseng, there is a qualitative difference beyond the > quantitative difference of a lower required dose. > > If you think about other natural products.... If you eat garden-picked > carrots vs. conventional store-bought ones, the homegrown ones are far > superior in quality, but the actual quantity that you use is the same. > Fresh backyard chicken is immeasurably better than mass-market > store-bought chicken; the quality is far superior but you still eat > the same quantity. It's not like you can just increase the dose of > the generic chicken or decrease the dose of the organic chicken to > match the effects. > > So I'm just pointing out that even though the current domestic > products used in China are relatively poor in some ways, remember that > many of the dose ranges were established in times when the herbs were > not grown at an industrial scale with all manners of chemicals. The > old du shen tang actually was based on 30 grams of wild ginseng, there > are probably few people in the world today who have ever eaten 30 > grams of wild ginseng over the course of their entire life. Just > because quality is poor now in poor places, we must not assume that it > always was or always will be. Or that the doses recommended originally > were based on the current poor quality domestic stuff. > > Mind you, they do dose fairly highly in some parts of China. But the > dosing habits are often regional- I noticed that many doctors in > Sichuan dose fairly highly, for example. However, it is worth noting > that Taiwan is one of the places that buys up the high-quality > products, yet they still dose their formulas higher than most people > do in the USA. So even though they are using the export-quality > stuff, the doses aren't cut in half. Dosing habits vary more by > regional trends than they do because of compensation in quality, I > believe. > > Eric > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 Bob, Thanks, I'll definitely have a look. Lea. , " Bob Flaws " <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > Lea, > > Because of decline in liver and kidney function, drugs are not > metabolized and excreted as quickly. Therefore, the general principle > in medicine is to reduce the dosage. Blue Poppy has tables with weight > and age dosage guidelines on our website at www.bluepoppy.com > > Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 Eric, Interesting thoughts.What you mentioned of the huge farming conglomerates that grow the herbs these days in China, reminded me that I read that China is now growing and exporting a large amount of ayurvedic herbs to India. Lea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 In Nanjing ( " Jiangsu first provincial hospital of TCM " ) it would be fairly common to use large doses (up to 30g) of chai hu, dang gui, ban lan gen and many other herbs. It depended on the doctor and the department. Most herbs were the " usual " 6-15g dose range, and then a few chief herbs would be at a high dose. Lea. , " " wrote: > > I did a quick review of my notebooks of the formulas from the City Beijing Hospital, > Hepatitis and Dermatology departments and the dosages are about the same or 3 grams > above what we - I normally might use here. The exception seems to be huang qi which is > up to 100 grams in the hepatitis department. > > doug > > , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus@> wrote: > > > > , " Lea Starck " <leabun1@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Re: Large doses of herbs. > > > > > > I would like to discuss two points. The first is that in China, the > > quality > > > of the herbs used is often much poorer than that which is used here in > > > Australia. > > > > It is true that wealthier countries tend to buy up higher grades of > > many medicinals, while many mainland Chinese hospitals and pharmacies > > are left with more affordable but lower-quality herbs. However, it is > > also important to keep in mind that historically most medicinals were > > wildcrafted or grown organically on small-scale family farms. It is > > only now that the population is so huge that agricultural practices > > have stepped up to meet demand by having huge farming conglomerates, > > pesticides, chemical fertilizers, etc. Nonetheless, many of the doses > > that were recorded in all of our cherished books evolved at a time > > when the herbs were relatively clean and potent; still about 50% of > > what we use is wild-crafted to this day. > > > > Of course, there are regions that produce superior products, and that > > would have always influenced dosage long before the modern > > agricultural revolution. However, quality herbs may have greater > > qualitative efficacy, not simply greater potency per gram. If you eat > > inferior ginseng, you can get an effect by eating more, but if you eat > > superior ginseng, there is a qualitative difference beyond the > > quantitative difference of a lower required dose. > > > > If you think about other natural products.... If you eat garden-picked > > carrots vs. conventional store-bought ones, the homegrown ones are far > > superior in quality, but the actual quantity that you use is the same. > > Fresh backyard chicken is immeasurably better than mass-market > > store-bought chicken; the quality is far superior but you still eat > > the same quantity. It's not like you can just increase the dose of > > the generic chicken or decrease the dose of the organic chicken to > > match the effects. > > > > So I'm just pointing out that even though the current domestic > > products used in China are relatively poor in some ways, remember that > > many of the dose ranges were established in times when the herbs were > > not grown at an industrial scale with all manners of chemicals. The > > old du shen tang actually was based on 30 grams of wild ginseng, there > > are probably few people in the world today who have ever eaten 30 > > grams of wild ginseng over the course of their entire life. Just > > because quality is poor now in poor places, we must not assume that it > > always was or always will be. Or that the doses recommended originally > > were based on the current poor quality domestic stuff. > > > > Mind you, they do dose fairly highly in some parts of China. But the > > dosing habits are often regional- I noticed that many doctors in > > Sichuan dose fairly highly, for example. However, it is worth noting > > that Taiwan is one of the places that buys up the high-quality > > products, yet they still dose their formulas higher than most people > > do in the USA. So even though they are using the export-quality > > stuff, the doses aren't cut in half. Dosing habits vary more by > > regional trends than they do because of compensation in quality, I > > believe. > > > > Eric > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 In school, we were taught to give similar doses to children and to the elderly, particularly the frail elderly, because of the delicate nature and weak digestive systems of both populations. --- Lea Starck <leabun1 wrote: > , " Bob > Flaws " > <pemachophel2001 wrote: > > > > Lea, > > > > Your point about adjusting dosages based on > patient size (up OR down) > > is well taken. I find that this factor is often > overlooked. Adjusting > > dose based on age is also important, especially as > the population > > using Chinese medicine ages. > > Thankyou for your reply. In which direction would > you recommend > adjusting doses in more elderly patients? Im > thinking it would be condition > dependent, but any thoughts? > > Lea. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2006 Report Share Posted September 30, 2006 Doug The exception seems to be huang qi which is up to 100 grams in the hepatitis department. Others say not to prescribe huang qi with hepatitis.... On Behalf Of Saturday, September 30, 2006 4:36 PM Re: Powder Herbs I did a quick review of my notebooks of the formulas from the City Beijing Hospital, Hepatitis and Dermatology departments and the dosages are about the same or 3 grams above what we - I normally might use here. The exception seems to be huang qi which is up to 100 grams in the hepatitis department. doug @ <%40> , " Eric Brand " <smilinglotus wrote: > > @ <%40> , " Lea Starck " <leabun1@> > wrote: > > > > Re: Large doses of herbs. > > > > I would like to discuss two points. The first is that in China, the > quality > > of the herbs used is often much poorer than that which is used here in > > Australia. > > It is true that wealthier countries tend to buy up higher grades of > many medicinals, while many mainland Chinese hospitals and pharmacies > are left with more affordable but lower-quality herbs. However, it is > also important to keep in mind that historically most medicinals were > wildcrafted or grown organically on small-scale family farms. It is > only now that the population is so huge that agricultural practices > have stepped up to meet demand by having huge farming conglomerates, > pesticides, chemical fertilizers, etc. Nonetheless, many of the doses > that were recorded in all of our cherished books evolved at a time > when the herbs were relatively clean and potent; still about 50% of > what we use is wild-crafted to this day. > > Of course, there are regions that produce superior products, and that > would have always influenced dosage long before the modern > agricultural revolution. However, quality herbs may have greater > qualitative efficacy, not simply greater potency per gram. If you eat > inferior ginseng, you can get an effect by eating more, but if you eat > superior ginseng, there is a qualitative difference beyond the > quantitative difference of a lower required dose. > > If you think about other natural products.... If you eat garden-picked > carrots vs. conventional store-bought ones, the homegrown ones are far > superior in quality, but the actual quantity that you use is the same. > Fresh backyard chicken is immeasurably better than mass-market > store-bought chicken; the quality is far superior but you still eat > the same quantity. It's not like you can just increase the dose of > the generic chicken or decrease the dose of the organic chicken to > match the effects. > > So I'm just pointing out that even though the current domestic > products used in China are relatively poor in some ways, remember that > many of the dose ranges were established in times when the herbs were > not grown at an industrial scale with all manners of chemicals. The > old du shen tang actually was based on 30 grams of wild ginseng, there > are probably few people in the world today who have ever eaten 30 > grams of wild ginseng over the course of their entire life. Just > because quality is poor now in poor places, we must not assume that it > always was or always will be. Or that the doses recommended originally > were based on the current poor quality domestic stuff. > > Mind you, they do dose fairly highly in some parts of China. But the > dosing habits are often regional- I noticed that many doctors in > Sichuan dose fairly highly, for example. However, it is worth noting > that Taiwan is one of the places that buys up the high-quality > products, yet they still dose their formulas higher than most people > do in the USA. So even though they are using the export-quality > stuff, the doses aren't cut in half. Dosing habits vary more by > regional trends than they do because of compensation in quality, I > believe. > > Eric > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2006 Report Share Posted October 1, 2006 That's interesting... where had you heard or read that. Is the mechanism that it is too lifting into the rest of the body. That department in Beijing was very down on Chai Hu.... interesting... doug , " Heiko Lade " <heikocha wrote: > > Doug > > The exception seems to be huang qi which is > up to 100 grams in the hepatitis department. > > > > Others say not to prescribe huang qi with hepatitis.... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2006 Report Share Posted October 4, 2006 In a message dated 9/25/2006 8:53:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, writes: Why would any ground raw formula need to be cooked longer than 10 minutes? When the material is powdered you get immediate water saturation of the entire plant/mineral fiber. I would be surprised if you extracted " more " from a raw powder with longer boiling. When I started doing raw powders Extraction is not the only issue with cooking time. Herbs are also cooked to reduce toxicity or to be more bioavailable. They are also cooked to meld the properties of the constituents. Unless we can document what happens during the boiling of powders, and the adjustments to dosage that you rightly suggest are problematical, what is the point to grinding the herbs? (Excuse the delay, this got bounced back to me.) -- Karen Vaughan, MSTOM Licensed Acupuncturist, and Herbalist 253 Garfield Place Brooklyn, NY 11215 (718) 622-6755 Co-Conspirator to Make the World A Better Place: Visit http://www.heroicstories.com/ and join the conspiracy See my Acupuncture and Herbs website at: http://ksvaughan2.byregion.net/ And my website at Avon Walk for Breast Cancer 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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