Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 OK Re - but why would one think that the treatment for this is a " liver detoxification " and not a TCM pattern for the treatment of these conditions? So, when I treat eczema or skin dermatitis, I would probably be looking at blood heat, quite possible incombination with several other patterns. Does that mean that there is a toxic liver? What sort of digestional(sp) problems? SP qi vacuity signs? St heat signs? LR overacting on the SP signs? The areas you covered below (sleep, blood/qi, sinews, nails, eyes, genitals, etc.) are indeed all a part of the picture of liver pathology - with any number of different possible patterns. What does this have to do with detox of the liver? Is it not necessary to build blood, boost qi, quicken blood, smooth the liver, clear heat etc.? I go back to Doug's original questions: " As your new moderator of CHA I pondered this question from Carol and let it through because I have really have no idea what a liver detox formula is... or rather what it means to detox the liver. I hear this from my patients a lot, a LOT, but without tied to a syndrome I'm at a loss " Marnae At 11:47 PM 9/13/2005, you wrote: >A deficiency in the liver-process may express itself as: > >. Allergy >. Hip-joint problems >. Migrain and headaches >. Digestional problems >. Eczema and skin dermatitis >. Allergic asthma >. HD in dogs > >An excess of the liver-process may express itself as: > >. Beginning allergy >. Anger > >A destructive energy may give the following symptoms: > >. Strong anger > > >. Blood and Qi (vitality and energy): TCM and western practitioners both >recognise the function of LV in haematopoiesis, storage of vitamins >including B12, and in glycogen and protein metabolism, neutralisation or >detoxification of absorbed toxins. Severe stress on LV (as in patients >undergoing cytotoxic chemotherapy for cancer, or severe hepatitis) is very >debilitating; it greatly reduces Qi. Human sufferers report great depletion >of energy they feel " as weak as a kitten " . >. Sleep patterns: TCM also included sleep habits under its domain of LV >influence. Exposure to the harmful effects of Cold on LV results in the >inability to sleep. In contrast, the patient may sleep too much if LV is >exposed to excessive Heat. Excessive sleeping is also a sign of great >depletion of Qi, as occurs in the terminal stages of disease or old age. >Patients with an insufficient liver activity often report waking up at 0300 >in the night without any obvious reason. >. Tendons and muscles: In TCM, although SP dominates the muscles, LV >provides their nourishment. Therefore, anything that damages LV function, >also wreaks havoc on the muscular system. Pernicious factors, which can >attack LV, include Wind and a sour (acidic) environment. Often, Internal >Wind in LV can create muscle spasms or muscular pain that often moves around >in the body. The muscles that primarily are weakened are the hip-muscles and >the neck-muscles. Therefore, liver deficiency is the primary cause of the >development of hip dysplasia in dogs and neck stiffness in humans and dogs. >. Nails/hooves: The LV-process also plays an important role in the >health of >the nails. The Neijing states that " the liver flourishes in the nails " . >Therefore tonifying LV helps the nails. It is also interesting to note that >stimulation of the LV Process can also cure nail biting. >. Eye and sight: TCM texts state that LV has an important action on >the eye. >A chronic LV Deficiency may weaken sight and may lead to atrophy of the >optic nerve. Though LV is the classical Channel related to eye disorders, in >my opinion all 12 Processes (especially LU, GB, BL, ST, TH and LI) influence >the eye, as well as all the other sense organs. To treat progressive retinal >atrophy in dogs, I have found all of those Processes involved, although at >different times. >. Genitalia: The LV Process is important for the male genitalia. We will >later see that the acupuncture meridian of the liver (LV Channel) passes >exactly through the genital area. >. Immune system: The immune system is one of the first functions to >suffer >when the liver is suffering. This is seen very often in children's >allergies. The main cause of this in children is their excessive eating of >sweets. I often cures allergies in children just by ordering a complete >absence of sweets between 3 am and 3 pm (between 0300 and 1500). Also the >need to eat sugar or chocolate is a symptom in liver- or LV Deficiency. This >shows that the body does not always know what is the best thing to do. > >The patopsychological aspect of the liver is lack of will power, which is >indecision. >A deficient LV Process usually shows symptoms of excess and pain in the ST >Process, especially the ventral parts of the animal and Musculus Quadriceps. > >Are Simeon Thoresen >arethore <arethore >http://home.online.no/~arethore/ > > > > >-----Opprinnelig melding----- >Fra: >Pa vegne av Marnae Ergil >Sendt: 13. september 2005 11:09 >Til: >Emne: Re: liver detox formula > > >I agree with Al - several of you have said what you would do - but >why? What are the presenting s/sx that would lead you to believe a liver >needs to be " detoxed? " Again - what are the CM patterns? > >Marnae > >At 09:02 PM 9/12/2005, you wrote: > > >On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: > > > > > Since CM really has no liver > > > detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. > > > >I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk > >about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit > >difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs > >described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, > >but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with > > " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? > > > >-- > > > >Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 but why would one think that the treatment for this is a " liver detoxification " and not a TCM pattern for the treatment of these conditions? So, when I treat eczema or skin dermatitis, I would probably be looking at blood heat, quite possible incombination with several other patterns. Does that mean that there is a toxic liver? What sort of digestional(sp) problems? SP qi vacuity signs? St heat >>>>>>> The only way to resolve such questions is to look at pharmacology of the herbs and see if they support liver detox. When doing that some do some do not. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 The problem I personally have in trying to sort through questions of this sort often start with logical reasoning. If indeed there is a measurable condition that can be called liver toxicity, yet there are no specific symptoms or diseases definitely associated with it, how do we know that this measurable condition has anything to do with a current illness, or whether the measured values are in fact an abnormality, rather than a variation of what is normal. Surely a causal connection has to be demonstrated, not simply assumed, between disease states and lab values. So, has a causal connection been demonstrated between the measured values and any particular disease state? At least in this discussion I don't think anyone has referred to a study making the case. I admit my ignorance of the literature on this subject, but perhaps someone here can cite the specific studies if they know them. The next problem is making the connection with Chinese medicine. The discussion here has centered around herbs that enter the liver according to Chinese medicine. Yet we all know, don't we, that a disease described as a liver disease in Western medicine may well have pattern that don't mention the liver, and the treatment for which would not include liver entering herbs. Hepatitis is a good example. The question then becomes does one include liver herbs simply because of a blood test? or could it be that the best strategy is to go with the Chinese pattern? Someone here mentioned dysbiosis as an example of a condition where one might want to detoxify the liver. But the pattern in many cases of dysbiosis does not include a liver pattern. Furthermore, clearly liver toxicity does not cause dysbiosis. If anything, surely it is the other way about; that the dysbiosis causes a build up of toxins in the liver. In that case the treatment should surely be to treat the root of the problem in the gut wall, not the manifestations in the liver. I have no objection to finding ways to integrate the medicines East and West. However, in this case I think we have a major problem, as the concept of liver toxicity and its connection to disease seems not very convincing on the Western side, and this leads to all sorts of problems in pinning down the best way to integrate, or whether indeed there is anything to integrate. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 If indeed there is a measurable condition that can be called liver toxicity, yet there are no specific symptoms or diseases definitely associated with it, how do we know that this measurable condition has anything to do with a current illness, or whether the measured values are in fact an abnormality, rather than a variation of what is normal. Surely a causal connection has to be demonstrated, not simply assumed, between disease states and lab values. >>>>> Rory, i agree. There is a big disconnect between clinical medicine and many alternative-type labwork.Often the perceived need is theoretical and then patient feedback is used for confirmation which is full of problems.For example, while heavy metals are likely to be problematic for some people. There is almost no good support for what is normal, what is problematic, who is it problomatic for, and if current s/s have anything to do with lab findings.But that is the nature of functional medicine. Its a little like TCM, there is a so called ideal balance and therefor always stuff to do. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 A deficiency in the liver-process may express itself as: .. Allergy .. Hip-joint problems .. Migrain and headaches .. Digestional problems .. Eczema and skin dermatitis .. Allergic asthma .. HD in dogs An excess of the liver-process may express itself as: .. Beginning allergy .. Anger A destructive energy may give the following symptoms: .. Strong anger .. Blood and Qi (vitality and energy): TCM and western practitioners both recognise the function of LV in haematopoiesis, storage of vitamins including B12, and in glycogen and protein metabolism, neutralisation or detoxification of absorbed toxins. Severe stress on LV (as in patients undergoing cytotoxic chemotherapy for cancer, or severe hepatitis) is very debilitating; it greatly reduces Qi. Human sufferers report great depletion of energy they feel " as weak as a kitten " . .. Sleep patterns: TCM also included sleep habits under its domain of LV influence. Exposure to the harmful effects of Cold on LV results in the inability to sleep. In contrast, the patient may sleep too much if LV is exposed to excessive Heat. Excessive sleeping is also a sign of great depletion of Qi, as occurs in the terminal stages of disease or old age. Patients with an insufficient liver activity often report waking up at 0300 in the night without any obvious reason. .. Tendons and muscles: In TCM, although SP dominates the muscles, LV provides their nourishment. Therefore, anything that damages LV function, also wreaks havoc on the muscular system. Pernicious factors, which can attack LV, include Wind and a sour (acidic) environment. Often, Internal Wind in LV can create muscle spasms or muscular pain that often moves around in the body. The muscles that primarily are weakened are the hip-muscles and the neck-muscles. Therefore, liver deficiency is the primary cause of the development of hip dysplasia in dogs and neck stiffness in humans and dogs. .. Nails/hooves: The LV-process also plays an important role in the health of the nails. The Neijing states that " the liver flourishes in the nails " . Therefore tonifying LV helps the nails. It is also interesting to note that stimulation of the LV Process can also cure nail biting. .. Eye and sight: TCM texts state that LV has an important action on the eye. A chronic LV Deficiency may weaken sight and may lead to atrophy of the optic nerve. Though LV is the classical Channel related to eye disorders, in my opinion all 12 Processes (especially LU, GB, BL, ST, TH and LI) influence the eye, as well as all the other sense organs. To treat progressive retinal atrophy in dogs, I have found all of those Processes involved, although at different times. .. Genitalia: The LV Process is important for the male genitalia. We will later see that the acupuncture meridian of the liver (LV Channel) passes exactly through the genital area. .. Immune system: The immune system is one of the first functions to suffer when the liver is suffering. This is seen very often in children's allergies. The main cause of this in children is their excessive eating of sweets. I often cures allergies in children just by ordering a complete absence of sweets between 3 am and 3 pm (between 0300 and 1500). Also the need to eat sugar or chocolate is a symptom in liver- or LV Deficiency. This shows that the body does not always know what is the best thing to do. The patopsychological aspect of the liver is lack of will power, which is indecision. A deficient LV Process usually shows symptoms of excess and pain in the ST Process, especially the ventral parts of the animal and Musculus Quadriceps. Are Simeon Thoresen arethore <arethore http://home.online.no/~arethore/ -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: Pa vegne av Marnae Ergil Sendt: 13. september 2005 11:09 Til: Emne: Re: liver detox formula I agree with Al - several of you have said what you would do - but why? What are the presenting s/sx that would lead you to believe a liver needs to be " detoxed? " Again - what are the CM patterns? Marnae At 09:02 PM 9/12/2005, you wrote: >On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: > > > Since CM really has no liver > > detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. > >I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk >about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit >difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs >described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, >but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with > " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? > >-- > >Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 There are two sides to what we call TCM/OM, one is the medical side and the other is the prevention side. I think that we all know that functions tend to slow down as we age and we also tend to see an increase in fat with many of us gaining weight over the years as well. This is not healthy yet this is also not a disease, yet. It may stress the body to the point where other breakdowns occur and disease is named. If we look within the history of TCM/OM we do see mention various connections to fasting and meat eaters or fasting in general. This technique is to allow for the body time to better digest and cleanse itself but many of us have never tried this. Kind of like the reason why you do not fight a war on two fronts. Just my take. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > " " <alonmarcus > > >Re: SV: liver detox formula >Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:12:25 -0700 > >If indeed there is a >measurable condition that can be called liver toxicity, yet there are >no specific symptoms or diseases definitely associated with it, how do >we know that this measurable condition has anything to do with a >current illness, or whether the measured values are in fact an >abnormality, rather than a variation of what is normal. Surely a causal >connection has to be demonstrated, not simply assumed, between disease >states and lab values. > >>>>> >Rory, i agree. There is a big disconnect between clinical medicine and many >alternative-type labwork.Often the perceived need is theoretical and then >patient feedback is used for confirmation which is full of problems.For >example, while heavy metals are likely to be problematic for some people. >There is almost no good support for what is normal, what is problematic, >who is it problomatic for, and if current s/s have anything to do with lab >findings.But that is the nature of functional medicine. Its a little like >TCM, there is a so called ideal balance and therefor always stuff to do. > > > > >Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Is there a condition needed for preventitive care? Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Rory Kerr <rorykerr > > >Re: SV: liver detox formula >Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:50:12 -0400 > >The problem I personally have in trying to sort through questions of >this sort often start with logical reasoning. If indeed there is a >measurable condition that can be called liver toxicity, yet there are >no specific symptoms or diseases definitely associated with it, how do >we know that this measurable condition has anything to do with a >current illness, or whether the measured values are in fact an >abnormality, rather than a variation of what is normal. Surely a causal >connection has to be demonstrated, not simply assumed, between disease >states and lab values. So, has a causal connection been demonstrated >between the measured values and any particular disease state? At least >in this discussion I don't think anyone has referred to a study making >the case. I admit my ignorance of the literature on this subject, but >perhaps someone here can cite the specific studies if they know them. > >The next problem is making the connection with Chinese medicine. The >discussion here has centered around herbs that enter the liver >according to Chinese medicine. Yet we all know, don't we, that a >disease described as a liver disease in Western medicine may well have >pattern that don't mention the liver, and the treatment for which would >not include liver entering herbs. Hepatitis is a good example. The >question then becomes does one include liver herbs simply because of a >blood test? or could it be that the best strategy is to go with the >Chinese pattern? Someone here mentioned dysbiosis as an example of a >condition where one might want to detoxify the liver. But the pattern >in many cases of dysbiosis does not include a liver pattern. >Furthermore, clearly liver toxicity does not cause dysbiosis. If >anything, surely it is the other way about; that the dysbiosis causes a >build up of toxins in the liver. In that case the treatment should >surely be to treat the root of the problem in the gut wall, not the >manifestations in the liver. > >I have no objection to finding ways to integrate the medicines East and >West. However, in this case I think we have a major problem, as the >concept of liver toxicity and its connection to disease seems not very >convincing on the Western side, and this leads to all sorts of problems >in pinning down the best way to integrate, or whether indeed there is >anything to integrate. > >Rory > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Rory, Ever had a patient with a lot of disconnected signs/symptoms or with tenderness near the lower right hypochondriac area? These in and of themselves are problematic since the liver is responsible for many important processes in the body we might not see the nice textbook pattern for qi stagnation yet that is exactly what is happening. You mention a very important point that the intestines might be leading the way. Kiiko mentions a similar interesting pattern in Mark Seem's book pg 35 called " liver deficiency " with " large intesting excess " . This is not a typical pattern taught in most TCM/OM schools. Check it out. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Rory Kerr <rorykerr > > >Re: SV: liver detox formula >Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:50:12 -0400 > >The problem I personally have in trying to sort through questions of >this sort often start with logical reasoning. If indeed there is a >measurable condition that can be called liver toxicity, yet there are >no specific symptoms or diseases definitely associated with it, how do >we know that this measurable condition has anything to do with a >current illness, or whether the measured values are in fact an >abnormality, rather than a variation of what is normal. Surely a causal >connection has to be demonstrated, not simply assumed, between disease >states and lab values. So, has a causal connection been demonstrated >between the measured values and any particular disease state? At least >in this discussion I don't think anyone has referred to a study making >the case. I admit my ignorance of the literature on this subject, but >perhaps someone here can cite the specific studies if they know them. > >The next problem is making the connection with Chinese medicine. The >discussion here has centered around herbs that enter the liver >according to Chinese medicine. Yet we all know, don't we, that a >disease described as a liver disease in Western medicine may well have >pattern that don't mention the liver, and the treatment for which would >not include liver entering herbs. Hepatitis is a good example. The >question then becomes does one include liver herbs simply because of a >blood test? or could it be that the best strategy is to go with the >Chinese pattern? Someone here mentioned dysbiosis as an example of a >condition where one might want to detoxify the liver. But the pattern >in many cases of dysbiosis does not include a liver pattern. >Furthermore, clearly liver toxicity does not cause dysbiosis. If >anything, surely it is the other way about; that the dysbiosis causes a >build up of toxins in the liver. In that case the treatment should >surely be to treat the root of the problem in the gut wall, not the >manifestations in the liver. > >I have no objection to finding ways to integrate the medicines East and >West. However, in this case I think we have a major problem, as the >concept of liver toxicity and its connection to disease seems not very >convincing on the Western side, and this leads to all sorts of problems >in pinning down the best way to integrate, or whether indeed there is >anything to integrate. > >Rory > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 What's a liver? And should it be capitalized? Still curious after all these years. Ann ----- Rory, Ever had a patient with a lot of disconnected signs/symptoms or with tenderness near the lower right hypochondriac area? These in and of themselves are problematic since the liver is responsible for many important processes in the body we might not see the nice textbook pattern for qi stagnation yet that is exactly what is happening. You mention a very important point that the intestines might be leading the way. Kiiko mentions a similar interesting pattern in Mark Seem's book pg 35 called " liver deficiency " with " large intesting excess " . This is not a typical pattern taught in most TCM/OM schools. Check it out. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac >Rory Kerr <rorykerr > > >Re: SV: liver detox formula >Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:50:12 -0400 > >The problem I personally have in trying to sort through questions of >this sort often start with logical reasoning. If indeed there is a >measurable condition that can be called liver toxicity, yet there are >no specific symptoms or diseases definitely associated with it, how do >we know that this measurable condition has anything to do with a >current illness, or whether the measured values are in fact an >abnormality, rather than a variation of what is normal. Surely a causal >connection has to be demonstrated, not simply assumed, between disease >states and lab values. So, has a causal connection been demonstrated >between the measured values and any particular disease state? At least >in this discussion I don't think anyone has referred to a study making >the case. I admit my ignorance of the literature on this subject, but >perhaps someone here can cite the specific studies if they know them. > >The next problem is making the connection with Chinese medicine. The >discussion here has centered around herbs that enter the liver >according to Chinese medicine. Yet we all know, don't we, that a >disease described as a liver disease in Western medicine may well have >pattern that don't mention the liver, and the treatment for which would >not include liver entering herbs. Hepatitis is a good example. The >question then becomes does one include liver herbs simply because of a >blood test? or could it be that the best strategy is to go with the >Chinese pattern? Someone here mentioned dysbiosis as an example of a >condition where one might want to detoxify the liver. But the pattern >in many cases of dysbiosis does not include a liver pattern. >Furthermore, clearly liver toxicity does not cause dysbiosis. If >anything, surely it is the other way about; that the dysbiosis causes a >build up of toxins in the liver. In that case the treatment should >surely be to treat the root of the problem in the gut wall, not the >manifestations in the liver. > >I have no objection to finding ways to integrate the medicines East and >West. However, in this case I think we have a major problem, as the >concept of liver toxicity and its connection to disease seems not very >convincing on the Western side, and this leads to all sorts of problems >in pinning down the best way to integrate, or whether indeed there is >anything to integrate. > >Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 I favor the lower cased liver as that thing that has enzymes and makes for a great spread available at Jewish delis. The upper case Liver stores the Blood, manifests in the nails, dominates the tendons, etc... But that's just my style. Not sure how universal that is. -al. On Sep 14, 2005, at 12:47 PM, <snakeoil.works wrote: > What's a liver? > And should it be capitalized? > Still curious after all these years. > > Ann > ----- > -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 With Contemporary Chinese Pulse Diagnosis, we often diagnosis toxicity. Some of the main findings we use are choppiness over the entire pulse (as opposed to just some positions), a blood unclear finding (a slightly perceptible increase in width or expansion at the blood depth as one decreases finger pressure from the organ depth up to the qi depth). Often there is also increased choppiness in the Liver as well as a slow rate, often below 60bpm. The toxicity does not have to be just from the Liver, however. It can be from a retained pathogen, parasites, environmental factors, etc. Often, the Liver is implicated as the Liver stores the blood and often a major sign of toxicity is resulting blood stagnation. With the foregoing signs, Dr. Shen used his own formula called " Blood Unclear " Formula. The ingredients can be found at the following link. http://dragonrises.org/articles/toxicity.pdf Ross , Marnae Ergil <marnae@p...> wrote: > OK Re - but why would one think that the treatment for this is a " liver > detoxification " and not a TCM pattern for the treatment of these > conditions? So, when I treat eczema or skin dermatitis, I would probably > be looking at blood heat, quite possible incombination with several other > patterns. Does that mean that there is a toxic liver? What sort of > digestional(sp) problems? SP qi vacuity signs? St heat signs? LR > overacting on the SP signs? The areas you covered below (sleep, blood/qi, > sinews, nails, eyes, genitals, etc.) are indeed all a part of the picture > of liver pathology - with any number of different possible patterns. What > does this have to do with detox of the liver? Is it not necessary to build > blood, boost qi, quicken blood, smooth the liver, clear heat etc.? I go > back to Doug's original questions: > > " As your new moderator of CHA I pondered this question from Carol and let > it through > because I have really have no idea what a liver detox formula is... or > rather what it means to > detox the liver. I hear this from my patients a lot, a LOT, but without > tied to a syndrome I'm > at a loss " > > Marnae > > > At 11:47 PM 9/13/2005, you wrote: > >A deficiency in the liver-process may express itself as: > > > >. Allergy > >. Hip-joint problems > >. Migrain and headaches > >. Digestional problems > >. Eczema and skin dermatitis > >. Allergic asthma > >. HD in dogs > > > >An excess of the liver-process may express itself as: > > > >. Beginning allergy > >. Anger > > > >A destructive energy may give the following symptoms: > > > >. Strong anger > > > > > >. Blood and Qi (vitality and energy): TCM and western practitioners both > >recognise the function of LV in haematopoiesis, storage of vitamins > >including B12, and in glycogen and protein metabolism, neutralisation or > >detoxification of absorbed toxins. Severe stress on LV (as in patients > >undergoing cytotoxic chemotherapy for cancer, or severe hepatitis) is very > >debilitating; it greatly reduces Qi. Human sufferers report great depletion > >of energy they feel " as weak as a kitten " . > >. Sleep patterns: TCM also included sleep habits under its domain of LV > >influence. Exposure to the harmful effects of Cold on LV results in the > >inability to sleep. In contrast, the patient may sleep too much if LV is > >exposed to excessive Heat. Excessive sleeping is also a sign of great > >depletion of Qi, as occurs in the terminal stages of disease or old age. > >Patients with an insufficient liver activity often report waking up at 0300 > >in the night without any obvious reason. > >. Tendons and muscles: In TCM, although SP dominates the muscles, LV > >provides their nourishment. Therefore, anything that damages LV function, > >also wreaks havoc on the muscular system. Pernicious factors, which can > >attack LV, include Wind and a sour (acidic) environment. Often, Internal > >Wind in LV can create muscle spasms or muscular pain that often moves around > >in the body. The muscles that primarily are weakened are the hip- muscles and > >the neck-muscles. Therefore, liver deficiency is the primary cause of the > >development of hip dysplasia in dogs and neck stiffness in humans and dogs. > >. Nails/hooves: The LV-process also plays an important role in the > >health of > >the nails. The Neijing states that " the liver flourishes in the nails " . > >Therefore tonifying LV helps the nails. It is also interesting to note that > >stimulation of the LV Process can also cure nail biting. > >. Eye and sight: TCM texts state that LV has an important action on > >the eye. > >A chronic LV Deficiency may weaken sight and may lead to atrophy of the > >optic nerve. Though LV is the classical Channel related to eye disorders, in > >my opinion all 12 Processes (especially LU, GB, BL, ST, TH and LI) influence > >the eye, as well as all the other sense organs. To treat progressive retinal > >atrophy in dogs, I have found all of those Processes involved, although at > >different times. > >. Genitalia: The LV Process is important for the male genitalia. We will > >later see that the acupuncture meridian of the liver (LV Channel) passes > >exactly through the genital area. > >. Immune system: The immune system is one of the first functions to > >suffer > >when the liver is suffering. This is seen very often in children's > >allergies. The main cause of this in children is their excessive eating of > >sweets. I often cures allergies in children just by ordering a complete > >absence of sweets between 3 am and 3 pm (between 0300 and 1500). Also the > >need to eat sugar or chocolate is a symptom in liver- or LV Deficiency. This > >shows that the body does not always know what is the best thing to do. > > > >The patopsychological aspect of the liver is lack of will power, which is > >indecision. > >A deficient LV Process usually shows symptoms of excess and pain in the ST > >Process, especially the ventral parts of the animal and Musculus Quadriceps. > > > >Are Simeon Thoresen > >arethore@o... <arethore@o...> > >http://home.online.no/~arethore/ > > > > > > > > > >-----Opprinnelig melding----- > >Fra: > >Pa vegne av Marnae Ergil > >Sendt: 13. september 2005 11:09 > >Til: > >Emne: Re: liver detox formula > > > > > >I agree with Al - several of you have said what you would do - but > >why? What are the presenting s/sx that would lead you to believe a liver > >needs to be " detoxed? " Again - what are the CM patterns? > > > >Marnae > > > >At 09:02 PM 9/12/2005, you wrote: > > > > >On Sep 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > Since CM really has no liver > > > > detox formulas, as of yet, it seems difficult to answer. > > > > > >I am equally mystified by TCM teachers and practitioners who talk > > >about the need for liver detox. Toxic heat as a TCM concept is a bit > > >difficult to nail down, but if you look at the functions of the herbs > > >described as having that function, you can get into the ball park, > > >but at no point have I seen " toxic heat " having anything to do with > > > " liver detox " . Long Dan Cao? Huang Qin? > > > > > >-- > > > > > >Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including > > >board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a > > >free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Jewish as I am, chopped liver never appealed to me as much as lentil spread Seriously, the upper case " Liver thing " was originally supposed to distinguish the Chinese liver from the western one. However, this capitalization was at best inconsistent, since most authors who use this scheme don't capitalize " Uterus " , " Brain " and other extraordinary bowels. Once you start capitalizing " Liver " , what about qi, blood, fluids, five phase, anything that is associated with Chinese language? According to Bob Felt, none of these are proper nouns, and shouldn't be capitalized just because they are " Chinese " . This opinion is also consistent with the Practical Dictionary of . On Sep 14, 2005, at 12:53 PM, wrote: > I favor the lower cased liver as that thing that has enzymes and > makes for a great spread available at Jewish delis. The upper case > Liver stores the Blood, manifests in the nails, dominates the > tendons, etc... > > But that's just my style. Not sure how universal that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 On Sep 14, 2005, at 1:59 PM, wrote: > According to Bob Felt, none of these are proper nouns, and shouldn't > be capitalized just because they are " Chinese " . This opinion is also > consistent with the Practical Dictionary of . Any ideas on how to differentiate the Chinese and western organs in print? Italics? -- Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 For the Chinese organs all the e's are dropped down a few picas.... :-) doug , " " <al@g...> wrote: > > On Sep 14, 2005, at 1:59 PM, wrote: > > > According to Bob Felt, none of these are proper nouns, and shouldn't > > be capitalized just because they are " Chinese " . This opinion is also > > consistent with the Practical Dictionary of . > > Any ideas on how to differentiate the Chinese and western organs in > print? Italics? > > -- > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 How about using pinyin, with or without tone marks? (liver/gan1) Also, much of the time we discuss the viscera and bowels in connection with their patterns, which limits confusion (liver qi depression, damp heat pouring into the large intestine, kidney yin vacuity, etc.). On Sep 14, 2005, at 2:48 PM, wrote: > Any ideas on how to differentiate the Chinese and western organs in > print? Italics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Any ideas on how to differentiate the Chinese and western organs in print? Italics? >>>>> In my book TCM caps and wm noncap Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 I know in the European journal of Ch Med they say in their format for articles not to capitalize the organs, I don't know why? Heiko Lade M.H.Sc.(TCM) Lecturer and clinic supervisor Auckland College of Natural Medicine Website: www.acnm.co.nz - Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:20 PM Re: SV: liver detox formula Any ideas on how to differentiate the Chinese and western organs in print? Italics? >>>>> In my book TCM caps and wm noncap Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 On Sep 14, 2005, at 4:13 PM, rossrosen wrote: > With the foregoing signs, Dr. Shen used his own formula > called " Blood Unclear " Formula. -- The authors of the article, (Brandt Stickley and Hamilton Rott), you linked to write: " An alternate treatment is a formula developed by the late Dr. John HF Shen called Blood Unclear, which is used to take toxins out of the blood. " Ross, do you happen to know the source of this explanation ( " ...used to take toxins out of the blood " ) for the formula? Also, you say that you often make the diagnosis of toxicity within this group. Do you have a definition of the use of this term within the group, beyond it's association with the blood unclear pulse finding? Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 On Sep 13, 2005, at 10:12 PM, wrote: > Its a little like TCM, there is a so called ideal balance and therefor > always stuff to do. -- Alon, I have to disagree with you here. In Chinese medicine the pattern is defined by symptoms experienced by the patient, so there is a direct connection between the symptoms and the diagnosis. In the case of liver toxicity, as it has been talked about in this discussion, there is no such direct connection demonstrated between the symptoms experienced, or a specific disease, and the lab values indicating liver toxicity. At least, no-one has responded to my request for a study showing a connection. When you say that TCM is guilty of always having something to do, that is true to the extent that very often TCM can help relieve symptoms even if it cannot cure the disease causing the symptoms. It therefore seems justified to offer that sort of help. Of course, you are right to suggest that this is sloppy practice if it not made clear to the patient, but most people are happy to get any help they can get with difficult symptoms, and TCM is good at providing that sort of help. In addition it very often does improve the outcome of a disease. And, of course, there are many " functional " and chronic disorders that are very well treated by CM; better in many cases than with Western medicine. It may well be that doing liver detox is helpful to patients, yet it is not clear that this is so; and being so disconnected from the direct experience by the patient of his or her disorder, is rather difficult to evaluate when being used as a treatment for a specific condition. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 On Sep 14, 2005, at 9:39 AM, mike Bowser wrote: > Is there a condition needed for preventitive care? -- Mike, Sure there is. I was responding to claims that liver detox should be used in the treatment of specific conditions. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 When you say that TCM is guilty of always having something to do, that is true to the extent that very often TCM can help relieve symptoms even if it cannot cure the disease causing the symptoms. >>>>> Rory, this really depends on what level of practice we are talking about. Of course if one has symptoms then there is direct interventions and syndromes. It is a different question if these are effective or not. However, Chinese medicine also includes aspects of life quality enhancement from so-called preventative medicine to increasing ones qi, life span, etc. I was referring to these aspects. In functional medicine one can also, most of the time, make direct conclusions and application of lab data when a patient is symptomatic (sometimes with good scientific support and many times with very little evidence). At the same time, often the relationship is unclear and just like in CM when claiming preventative possibilities these are faith and philosophy based.Both CM and functional medicine seem to have an ideal health in mind. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Rory- The statement regarding " take toxins out of the blood " is derived from a manuscript containing a number of Dr. Shen's formulas, as well as personal communication with Dr. Hammer and some personal experience employing the formula. You may recall that there is an association with poisoning that relates to the Blood unclear pulse finding in conjunction with the very Slow rate. Referring to toxins " in/out of the blood " desribes the effects of the formula in addressing poison whether due to nefarious plots or industry... I agree with a statement you made in another message: " In Chinese medicine the pattern is defined by symptoms experienced by the patient, so there is a direct connection between the symptoms and the diagnosis. " With regard to " toxicity " what defines the pattern is the symptoms of often recalcitrant joint pain and fatigue. The signs include the pulse qualities Ross described, changes in the mucosa under the eyelid, and the tongue picture described in the article. When the symptoms and signs correspond with a history of exposure to chemical toxins, I have found the formula helpful. Exposure means a little over a long consistent time (working in a factory producing plastics, painting with oil paint, grooming animals, manicures, drag racing) or large amounts over a short period (I have had patients doused in rocket fuel, sprayed with pesticides, and working in Saudi oil fields; these are all cases I have seen personally). I have not treated any dermatological conditions with the formula. It might be most accurate to say that the pulse findings can " identify " an exposure of the types described. But it is clear from my own experience and that of Drs. Hammer and Shen that the formula certainly works to treat the results of such an exposure. Sincerely, Brandt Stickley , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@o...> wrote: > On Sep 14, 2005, at 4:13 PM, rossrosen wrote: > > With the foregoing signs, Dr. Shen used his own formula > > called " Blood Unclear " Formula. > -- > > The authors of the article, (Brandt Stickley and Hamilton Rott), you > linked to write: > " An alternate treatment is a formula developed by the late Dr. John HF > Shen called Blood Unclear, which is used to take toxins out of the > blood. " > > Ross, do you happen to know the source of this explanation ( " ...used to > take toxins out of the blood " ) for the formula? > > Also, you say that you often make the diagnosis of toxicity within this > group. Do you have a definition of the use of this term within the > group, beyond it's association with the blood unclear pulse finding? > > Rory > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 With regard to " toxicity " what defines the pattern is the symptoms of often recalcitrant joint pain and fatigue. >>>> This is not a CM description. Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 Nevertheless the term as employed conjoins a set of symptoms, and signs, especially according to pulse and tongue diagnosis, and then joins them to a treatment principle from which an herbal formula has been derived. -Brandt , " " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > With regard to " toxicity " what > defines the pattern is the symptoms of often recalcitrant joint pain and fatigue. > >>>> > This is not a CM description. > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2005 Report Share Posted September 15, 2005 This can be confusing, as du2/toxin has a specific meaning in Chinese medicine as a technical term that doesn't match toxicity in the sense of 'liver detox'. Liver detox or liver toxicity seems much more of a vague notion as described in general discourse, although I do not discount that it has a more specific meaning in naturopathic circles. But, still different from du2/toxin. On Sep 15, 2005, at 4:45 PM, Brandt Stickley wrote: > Nevertheless the term as employed conjoins a set of symptoms, and > signs, especially > according to pulse and tongue diagnosis, and then joins them to a > treatment principle from > which an herbal formula has been derived. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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