Personality Types

February 9, 2005

Personality types:

In the 5-E schools who follow the J.R. Worsley model, these achetypes

based on the 5 elements, are probably an elaborated-upon version from

that sparse mention in the Nei Jing. Guessing . . . that some of this

comes from Carl Jung's work, conceptually at least. Benfield &

Korngold's Beyond Heaven and Earth describe these types at length. The

5E 'personality typings' lend themselves to armchair diagnostics and

oversimplifications, like 'what's your sign?' They are fun, immensely

appealing, and can detract from the real work of CM diagnosis, IMO. I,

too, have wondered about the source, besides what's in the Nei Jing.

Frances Gander

February 9, 2005

Ze'v,

Chinese medicine throughout the years has evolved through physicians formulating

ideas, testing them and incorporating them into the body of the whole, so a line

is difficult indeed to draw. Many theories were outrageous in their day, and

later were incorporated into the medicine. the quality of chinese medicine

changes when practiced in the west, a topic of many discussions...now, maybe the

question to pose here is wether we as western practitioners can evolve the

medicine in a way that it has not gone before simply by changing the cultural

backdrop of its practitioners. Are we qualified? my answer is yes. However,

our knowledge should in good faith draw upon not only our own experience -

chinese physicians that developed branching theories drew upon their roots of

medical knowledge, usually passed from generation to generation of experience.

That is why the classics must absolutely be studied and looked towards in

developing theories and new ideas in the medicine.

Eti

February 9, 2005

When we narrow our focus to only looking at medical conditions that is all

that we will see. This is the same criticism of western medicine as it

neglects to deal with pre-medical conditions. We have within our ancient

pre-communist TCM knowledge of health and conditions of illness progression.

When we open up our minds to all information we create a better chance of

helping our patient. I have noticed a tendency of practitioners/students to

limit possible sources of info just because it is not commonly known nor

practiced. I hope that we can learn to rise above this limited view, our

profession depends upon it.

Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <

>

> Re: Personality Types

>Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:36:33 -0000

>

> , frances gander

><threetreasures@f...>

>wrote:

> >

>The

> > 5E 'personality typings' lend themselves to armchair diagnostics and

> > oversimplifications, like 'what's your sign?' They are fun, immensely

> > appealing, and can detract from the real work of CM diagnosis, IMO.

>

>I couldn't agree more.

>

>Todd

>

February 9, 2005

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

>

> We have some English translations of classical Chinese literature on

> macrobiotics, or yang sheng/nurturing life, such as materials from the

> Mawangdui manuscripts, and soon the Dunhuang manuscripts.

Lets get real. the masses have no interest in this and never will, especially

with the

promise of stem cells around the corner. We are a fat indulgent country and all

the new

info we have on health has coinsided with the largest increase in obesity in

american

history. Our patients want noniatrogenic relief and rarely much else. Lets

give them what

they want and not try and play priest or guru anymore.

February 9, 2005

Personality maybe a modern thing but tendencies are not.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <

>

> Re: Personality Types

>Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:42:43 -0000

>

> , " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1@h...>

>wrote:

> > If we believe that the ancient Chinese society was one of understanding

> > interconnections than why would we not think that body types would not

>be

> > given importance in treating one to keep them healthy?

>

>body typing has remained a topic even in modern times. Flaws talks about

>shaoyang,

>taiyang, shao yin, tai yin types in his books. but these have mainly been

>discussed in

>terms of physical chgaracterisitcs, not mental ones. Remember personality

>is really a

>modern concept largely developed by 20th century pyschologists. It is my

>understanding

>that much of the astrological personality typing was also developed in the

>last 100 years

>as well. While their were general ideas like the firehorse being

>dangerous, there could not

>have been the type of freudian or jungian analysis we now so commonly see

>associated

>with astrology.

>

>Todd

>

February 9, 2005

I do not think it is possible to change our system of care no matter how

much the masses pay. We can only work with the person and their limitations

not create a new body for them. More and more people are waking up to the

idea that they need to take care of themselves. Some do care and those are

the ones that come to us. The others can seek care with their MD. As for

American health, it was the best it has been during the 1930's due to

reduced food consumption. We are approaching this again due to economics.

There is hope for our obesity.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <

>

>Re: Personality Types

>Thu, 10 Feb 2005 04:50:34 -0000

>

> , " " <zrosenbe@s...>

>wrote:

>

> >

> > We have some English translations of classical Chinese literature on

> > macrobiotics, or yang sheng/nurturing life, such as materials from the

> > Mawangdui manuscripts, and soon the Dunhuang manuscripts.

>

>Lets get real. the masses have no interest in this and never will,

>especially with the

>promise of stem cells around the corner. We are a fat indulgent country

>and all the new

>info we have on health has coinsided with the largest increase in obesity

>in american

>history. Our patients want noniatrogenic relief and rarely much else.

>Lets give them what

>they want and not try and play priest or guru anymore.

>

>Todd

>

February 9, 2005

, " mike Bowser "

<naturaldoc1@h...> wrote:

As for

> American health, it was the best it has been during the 1930's due

to

> reduced food consumption. > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

Mike,

I don't think that this can be true. Do you have any evidence? Many

people died of starvation and the effects of malnutrition in the

1930's. Not to mention tuberculosis, dysentery, typhoid, gonorrhea,

syphilis and many more...

Jill Likkel

February 10, 2005

Visits to hospitals as well as number of people sick were way down during

this time period. Cancer, for example, was a rarity and not like it is

today. Yes there were people that died due to starvation and other causes.

Disease due to excessive dietary consumption were down. Kinda makes sense,

huh?

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " Jill A. Likkel " <jilllikkel

>

>Re: Personality Types

>Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:07:18 -0000

>

> , " mike Bowser "

><naturaldoc1@h...> wrote:

> As for

> > American health, it was the best it has been during the 1930's due

>to

> > reduced food consumption. > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> >

>Mike,

>I don't think that this can be true. Do you have any evidence? Many

>people died of starvation and the effects of malnutrition in the

>1930's. Not to mention tuberculosis, dysentery, typhoid, gonorrhea,

>syphilis and many more...

>

>Jill Likkel

>

February 10, 2005

Mike,

I am not sure exactly what you are saying, your msg.'s are vague (with

proof), but maybe you could clarify a bit... For example, it is nice to say

that there is all this pre-communist knowledge that we should not forget to

open our mind about etc... But I ask you my original question, do you have

any proof that these personality types have any validation from a Chinese

source. IS there proof that they work, or do you have any sources that even

go into half as much detail as some of these Western authors. We might find

out that these 'personality types' are extremely valuable - I am not one to

say...But a few mentions in the Neijing are absolutely NOT validation that

this system works... It actually shows the opposite in my mind. For

example, if future physicians (including modern) do not write about it / use

it, this says to me that they believe there is not much validity. The

Chinese have complete access to the Neijing, so they surely know about it.

Simple survival of the fittest (of ideas).

I just want to know if there is any root from actual CM vs.; is this a

somewhat extreme adaptation from a Western practitioner. That kind of

information is extremely valuable to ME. I just want to see some proof to

back up the talk...

-Jason

----

Mike has said,

" I think that this dismissal of info is a concern for us. There is a lot of

info that we do not have access to about this ancient culture. It is highly

presumptuous of us to think that a modern author developed this system of

correspondences although he may have added to it.

" We seem to be missing something in that ancient people believed in

prevention of care. It makes sense that over time they saw and catalogued

people with propensities to certain conditions. "

" Universal principles do not change and thus are up to the interpretation of

the peoples of the time... Let's not forget this other side of the coin as

superior phsycians[sic]. "

" We have within our ancient

> pre-communist TCM knowledge of health and conditions of illness

> progression.

> When we open up our minds to all information we create a better chance

> of

> helping our patient. I have noticed a tendency of practitioners/students

> to

> limit possible sources of info just because it is not commonly known nor

> practiced. I hope that we can learn to rise above this limited view, our

> profession depends upon it.

> Later

February 10, 2005

Jason,

Most of my texts are in boxes due to move. I understand what you are asking

but would ask you where you draw the line in a culture that is so rapped up

in interconnections as to how to define where one discipline ends and

another begins? As this was mentioned in one text that survived should be

ample proof that others may have added to this is good for the profession.

As an aside, Unschuld has mentioned the Mahuangdui manuscripts and jing luo.

Do we believe in their existence because they were mentioned? Where does

this put us in regards to the modern Korean research photos of very small

vessels running along know channel trajectories? These are things we need

to consider as a profession. I can understand your skepticism. I will try

to find info as I unpack.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " "

>

>RE: Re: Personality Types

>Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:37:39 -0700

>

>Mike,

>

>I am not sure exactly what you are saying, your msg.'s are vague (with

>proof), but maybe you could clarify a bit... For example, it is nice to say

>that there is all this pre-communist knowledge that we should not forget to

>open our mind about etc... But I ask you my original question, do you have

>any proof that these personality types have any validation from a Chinese

>source. IS there proof that they work, or do you have any sources that

>even

>go into half as much detail as some of these Western authors. We might

>find

>out that these 'personality types' are extremely valuable - I am not one to

>say...But a few mentions in the Neijing are absolutely NOT validation that

>this system works... It actually shows the opposite in my mind. For

>example, if future physicians (including modern) do not write about it /

>use

>it, this says to me that they believe there is not much validity. The

>Chinese have complete access to the Neijing, so they surely know about it.

>Simple survival of the fittest (of ideas).

>

>I just want to know if there is any root from actual CM vs.; is this a

>somewhat extreme adaptation from a Western practitioner. That kind of

>information is extremely valuable to ME. I just want to see some proof to

>back up the talk...

>

>-Jason

>

>----

>Mike has said,

>

> " I think that this dismissal of info is a concern for us. There is a lot

>of

>info that we do not have access to about this ancient culture. It is

>highly

>presumptuous of us to think that a modern author developed this system of

>correspondences although he may have added to it.

>

> " We seem to be missing something in that ancient people believed in

>prevention of care. It makes sense that over time they saw and catalogued

>people with propensities to certain conditions. "

>

> " Universal principles do not change and thus are up to the interpretation

>of

>the peoples of the time... Let's not forget this other side of the coin as

>superior phsycians[sic]. "

>

> " We have within our ancient

> > pre-communist TCM knowledge of health and conditions of illness

> > progression.

> > When we open up our minds to all information we create a better chance

> > of

> > helping our patient. I have noticed a tendency of

>practitioners/students

> > to

> > limit possible sources of info just because it is not commonly known nor

> > practiced. I hope that we can learn to rise above this limited view,

>our

> > profession depends upon it.

> > Later

>

February 10, 2005

Wow, Todd - how very cynical, this saddens me. I know you're

probably being flippant, but still...

I do not have this experience with my patients. Sure, some want a

quick fix if they have a simple physical problem -- put his back out

lifting something, sprained an ankle, got Bell's palsy, and so would

I.

I do see a lot of transformation in the lives of my patients,

especially in chronic diseases or internal medicine. They want the

advice, books I lend them, diet suggestions, qi gong videos,

referrals to good yoga teachers I know. They appreciate the fact

that they can start handling the problems in their life with more

calm and awareness, and even start changing their lives to lessen

some of those problems and stressors.

That's just being a good practitioner, read the

Neijing. Prevention, treat future diseases before they manifest,

yada yada.

Karla

, " "

wrote:

>

> Lets get real. the masses have no interest in this and never

will, especially with the

> promise of stem cells around the corner. We are a fat indulgent

country and all the new

> info we have on health has coinsided with the largest increase in

obesity in american

> history. Our patients want noniatrogenic relief and rarely much

else. Lets give them what

> they want and not try and play priest or guru anymore.

>

February 11, 2005

>

> mike Bowser [naturaldoc1]

> Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:54 PM

>

> RE: Re: Personality Types

>

> Jason,

> Most of my texts are in boxes due to move. I understand what you are

> asking

> but would ask you where you draw the line in a culture that is so rapped

> up

> in interconnections as to how to define where one discipline ends and

> another begins?

[Jason]

I look forward to you unpacking your books and finding some information...

But as far as a 'line' goes, there is none.. This is a cut and dry question.

I am looking for Chinese validation, hence sources; that is it. Do you have

this in your books? IF no one does, then we can assume that there is good

chance that these western authors (worsely, ross etc) are MSUing... Fine,

but let us call things for what they are...

But as far as a small mention in the neijing about personality types, this

is far from 'ample proof' that the Chinese used this system with any

efficacy or even used it at all in some mainstream way; that is complete

lunacy... They probably weren't even using it much at the time of neijing,

hence the limited time spent discussing it... Your whole contingency is

based on two big word 'MAY HAVE...' - I don't buy 'may haves'.... Ideas that

work, become mainstream, and we should find that type of usage (or others)

somewhere in the Chinese texts, modern or pre-modern... I look forward to

more 'proof'...

-Jason

As this was mentioned in one text that survived should be

> ample proof that others may have added to this is good for the profession.

> As an aside, Unschuld has mentioned the Mahuangdui manuscripts and jing

> luo.

> Do we believe in their existence because they were mentioned? Where

> does

> this put us in regards to the modern Korean research photos of very small

> vessels running along know channel trajectories? These are things we need

> to consider as a profession. I can understand your skepticism. I will

> try

> to find info as I unpack.

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> > " "

> >

> >RE: Re: Personality Types

> >Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:37:39 -0700

> >

>

February 11, 2005

What about popular culture references to liver spleen and gallbladder, e.g.,

gan qi= angry da dan = is brave and pi qi bu hao = angry (presumably because

liver is overacting on spleen : ). ) All I mean by that is there seems to

be some awareness historically in Chinese popular culture of the direct

emotional relationships with various organs, though I don't know if this

entered into the therapeutic realm or if it was regarded as an immutable

inherited trait. There is certainly a somatype associated with various

virtues and/or personality traits, so if you can get from a somatype to a

organ or element pattern then chances are somebody else did too.

I believe there are some Korean sources which refer to types based on an

organ being large or small, though my recollection was this was mostly a

somatype, but I think there were some additional emotional typing.

Personally I think you're right. Personality typing and some diagnosis was

common among those who studied physiognomy, and there is certainly an

overlap there, though it might have been via popular daoist practices and

more of a handed down thing than a " lets write this down " thing. It

certainly doesn't show up in the classical medical texts that I have read,

or for that matter in the daoist material either, but physiognomy and

fortune telling were long associated with popular Daoism, and, while they

might hold some truth I don't think the highbrows were paying that much

attention. Some Chinese astrologers also used personality types for each

element, probably based on birthyear in the 60 year cycle or some more

abstruse godawful calculation, which would certainly become an issue if

someone were using calendrical calculations or ideas about the years

pathogen in there treatments. Whether Worsley et al were MSU is another

issue I suppose.

Par

-

" "

Friday, February 11, 2005 9:33 AM

RE: Re: Personality Types

>

>>

>> mike Bowser [naturaldoc1]

>> Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:54 PM

>>

>> RE: Re: Personality Types

>>

>> Jason,

>> Most of my texts are in boxes due to move. I understand what you are

>> asking

>> but would ask you where you draw the line in a culture that is so rapped

>> up

>> in interconnections as to how to define where one discipline ends and

>> another begins?

> [Jason]

> I look forward to you unpacking your books and finding some information...

> But as far as a 'line' goes, there is none.. This is a cut and dry

> question.

> I am looking for Chinese validation, hence sources; that is it. Do you

> have

> this in your books? IF no one does, then we can assume that there is good

> chance that these western authors (worsely, ross etc) are MSUing... Fine,

> but let us call things for what they are...

>

> But as far as a small mention in the neijing about personality types, this

> is far from 'ample proof' that the Chinese used this system with any

> efficacy or even used it at all in some mainstream way; that is complete

> lunacy... They probably weren't even using it much at the time of neijing,

> hence the limited time spent discussing it... Your whole contingency is

> based on two big word 'MAY HAVE...' - I don't buy 'may haves'.... Ideas

> that

> work, become mainstream, and we should find that type of usage (or others)

> somewhere in the Chinese texts, modern or pre-modern... I look forward to

> more 'proof'...

>

> -Jason

>

> As this was mentioned in one text that survived should be

>> ample proof that others may have added to this is good for the

>> profession.

>> As an aside, Unschuld has mentioned the Mahuangdui manuscripts and jing

>> luo.

>> Do we believe in their existence because they were mentioned? Where

>> does

>> this put us in regards to the modern Korean research photos of very small

>> vessels running along know channel trajectories? These are things we

>> need

>> to consider as a profession. I can understand your skepticism. I will

>> try

>> to find info as I unpack.

>> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>> > " "

>> >

>> >RE: Re: Personality Types

>> >Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:37:39 -0700

>> >

>>

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

> board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

> free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

February 11, 2005

Jason,

I think you know I agree with your position on MSU and modern

interpretations of constitutional diagnosis as in Worsley acupuncture,

etc. Basicially, these seem to be human potential/psychological

archetypes grafted onto five phase theory. However, this doesn't mean

we should dismiss the possible of a particular thread of an idea in the

Nei Jing never being followed up upon somewhere in the vast literature,

or in clinical practice.. It would take more resources of language,

money and time than what I have to follow through the channel-based

constitutional ideas.

Clearly, the ideas of channel-based constitutional typing were

preserved in the Jia Yi Jing by Huang Fu-mai, so he must have thought

they had some importance. Also, such relatively modern practices as

San-am acupuncture in Korea seem to be largely based on these

constitutional types in the Nei Jing, so, yes, they still exist, even

if outside of China. So, it is incorrect to say that these ideas never

had any importance. They are still practiced in the acupuncture

profession today.

I am interested in the idea of constitutional medicine, as it appears

in all pre-modern medical traditions. There is also sometimes a very

fine line between constitution and pattern differentiation in Chinese

medicine. From my observation it would appear as if long-standing

zang-fu patterns are considered to be constitutional underlying

patterns, such as in, for example, a patient with underlying spleen

yang vacuity cold and phlegm-rheum who contracts wind-cold (the xiao

qing long tang patient). It seems that Japanese herbal medicine uses

prescription/pattern archetypes such as these, as in calling a patient

a " xiao chai hu tang " patient, for example.

I apologize if my ideas seem a bit rushed and half-baked, I've been

writing on the fly these days. Very busy time.

On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:33 AM, wrote:

> IF no one does, then we can assume that there is good

> chance that these western authors (worsely, ross etc) are MSUing...

> Fine,

> but let us call things for what they are...

>

> But as far as a small mention in the neijing about personality types,

> this

> is far from 'ample proof' that the Chinese used this system with any

> efficacy or even used it at all in some mainstream way; that is

> complete

> lunacy... They probably weren't even using it much at the time of

> neijing,

> hence the limited time spent discussing it... Your whole contingency

> is

> based on two big word 'MAY HAVE...' - I don't buy 'may haves'....

> Ideas that

> work, become mainstream, and we should find that type of usage (or

> others)

> somewhere in the Chinese texts, modern or pre-modern... I look

> forward to

> more 'proof'...

>

February 11, 2005

As I pointed out elsewhere to Jason, the four constitutional type

concept in the Nei Jing is still practiced in Korea as part of San-am

constitutional acupuncture.

On Feb 9, 2005, at 8:34 PM, wrote:

>

> , " "

> <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> This is just another road, one 'less

> > travelled' in China than many other ones.

>

> perhaps one never traveled unless someone can find some cites more

> recent than huang

> di and less recent than worseley.

>

> Todd

>

February 11, 2005

Z'ev,

Just for the record I am not dismissing anything... Also I find a difference

between constitutional types (as you mention) and personality types that are

found in Ross's book(s) et al... This is what I am interested in... Where

do all the oodles of personality stuff come from...? IS it referenced at all

from the Chinese Language sources... Again a couple line mention about a

shaoyin person acting like this or that, is far from what these modern

authors are representing, IMHO that is... but I am not discounting anything,

just wanting some references...

-Jason

>

> [zrosenbe]

> Friday, February 11, 2005 5:08 PM

>

> Re: Re: Personality Types

>

> Jason,

> I think you know I agree with your position on MSU and modern

> interpretations of constitutional diagnosis as in Worsley acupuncture,

> etc. Basicially, these seem to be human potential/psychological

> archetypes grafted onto five phase theory. However, this doesn't mean

> we should dismiss the possible of a particular thread of an idea in the

> Nei Jing never being followed up upon somewhere in the vast literature,

> or in clinical practice.. It would take more resources of language,

> money and time than what I have to follow through the channel-based

> constitutional ideas.

>

> Clearly, the ideas of channel-based constitutional typing were

> preserved in the Jia Yi Jing by Huang Fu-mai, so he must have thought

> they had some importance. Also, such relatively modern practices as

> San-am acupuncture in Korea seem to be largely based on these

> constitutional types in the Nei Jing, so, yes, they still exist, even

> if outside of China. So, it is incorrect to say that these ideas never

> had any importance. They are still practiced in the acupuncture

> profession today.

>

> I am interested in the idea of constitutional medicine, as it appears

> in all pre-modern medical traditions. There is also sometimes a very

> fine line between constitution and pattern differentiation in Chinese

> medicine. From my observation it would appear as if long-standing

> zang-fu patterns are considered to be constitutional underlying

> patterns, such as in, for example, a patient with underlying spleen

> yang vacuity cold and phlegm-rheum who contracts wind-cold (the xiao

> qing long tang patient). It seems that Japanese herbal medicine uses

> prescription/pattern archetypes such as these, as in calling a patient

> a " xiao chai hu tang " patient, for example.

>

> I apologize if my ideas seem a bit rushed and half-baked, I've been

> writing on the fly these days. Very busy time.

>

> On Feb 11, 2005, at 6:33 AM, wrote:

>

> > IF no one does, then we can assume that there is good

> > chance that these western authors (worsely, ross etc) are MSUing...

> > Fine,

> > but let us call things for what they are...

> >

> > But as far as a small mention in the neijing about personality types,

> > this

> > is far from 'ample proof' that the Chinese used this system with any

> > efficacy or even used it at all in some mainstream way; that is

> > complete

> > lunacy... They probably weren't even using it much at the time of

> > neijing,

> > hence the limited time spent discussing it... Your whole contingency

> > is

> > based on two big word 'MAY HAVE...' - I don't buy 'may haves'....

> > Ideas that

> > work, become mainstream, and we should find that type of usage (or

> > others)

> > somewhere in the Chinese texts, modern or pre-modern... I look

> > forward to

> > more 'proof'...

> >

>

February 11, 2005

, " mike Bowser "

<naturaldoc1@h...> wrote:

> Visits to hospitals as well as number of people sick were way down

during

> this time period. Cancer, for example, was a rarity and not like

it is

> today.

Hi Mike,

This may be off topic but..

According to this graph cancer wasn't rare in the 1930's.

http://www.cancer.org/downloads/stt/Age-

Adjusted_Cancer_Death_Rates,_Females_by_Site,_US,_1930-2001.pdf

Some cancers are lower now such as stomach cancer and some are

higher, such as lung and bronchus. For those that are interested

there is also a graph for cancers of men in the same time period.

Of course there is the 'lies, damn lies and statistics' effect but

what evidence do you have?

Mike: Yes there were people that died due to starvation and other

causes.

> Disease due to excessive dietary consumption were down.

Jill: Where does this come from?

Kinda makes sense,

> huh?

> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

Sorry Mike, not really...

Jill Likkel

February 11, 2005

I am a bit concerned with such an extreme approach from within our

profession. While I agree that we are at a clear disadvantage when it comes

to classical texts for two reasons not ancient translators and not Chinese

readers. We do not need this kind of bickering and in the end we are our

own worst enemy as we continue to attack our own ideas. Most of us know

that this medicine is based upon the concept of interconnections. What is

not clear is how much this idea was practiced or written about in lost

texts. None of us really knows what has happened in China¹s history as we

were not there. In the end, this personality idea may only be a part of

another concept as things were not usually separated in CM. This is

sounding more and more like a witch hunt than an interest in ancient CM

ideas. Integration not separation is at the center of CM. Let¹s work

toward improving our profession.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

On 2/11/05 1:26 PM, " Par Scott " <parufus wrote:

> What about popular culture references to liver spleen and gallbladder, e.g.,

> gan qi= angry da dan = is brave and pi qi bu hao = angry (presumably because

> liver is overacting on spleen : ). ) All I mean by that is there seems to

> be some awareness historically in Chinese popular culture of the direct

> emotional relationships with various organs, though I don't know if this

> entered into the therapeutic realm or if it was regarded as an immutable

> inherited trait. There is certainly a somatype associated with various

> virtues and/or personality traits, so if you can get from a somatype to a

> organ or element pattern then chances are somebody else did too.

>

> I believe there are some Korean sources which refer to types based on an

> organ being large or small, though my recollection was this was mostly a

> somatype, but I think there were some additional emotional typing.

>

> Personally I think you're right. Personality typing and some diagnosis was

> common among those who studied physiognomy, and there is certainly an

> overlap there, though it might have been via popular daoist practices and

> more of a handed down thing than a " lets write this down " thing. It

> certainly doesn't show up in the classical medical texts that I have read,

> or for that matter in the daoist material either, but physiognomy and

> fortune telling were long associated with popular Daoism, and, while they

> might hold some truth I don't think the highbrows were paying that much

> attention. Some Chinese astrologers also used personality types for each

> element, probably based on birthyear in the 60 year cycle or some more

> abstruse godawful calculation, which would certainly become an issue if

> someone were using calendrical calculations or ideas about the years

> pathogen in there treatments. Whether Worsley et al were MSU is another

> issue I suppose.

>

> Par

>

> -

> " "

>

> Friday, February 11, 2005 9:33 AM

> RE: Re: Personality Types

>

>> >

>>> >>

>>> >> mike Bowser [naturaldoc1]

>>> >> Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:54 PM

>>> >>

>>> >> RE: Re: Personality Types

>>> >>

>>> >> Jason,

>>> >> Most of my texts are in boxes due to move. I understand what you are

>>> >> asking

>>> >> but would ask you where you draw the line in a culture that is so rapped

>>> >> up

>>> >> in interconnections as to how to define where one discipline ends and

>>> >> another begins?

>> > [Jason]

>> > I look forward to you unpacking your books and finding some information...

>> > But as far as a 'line' goes, there is none.. This is a cut and dry

>> > question.

>> > I am looking for Chinese validation, hence sources; that is it. Do you

>> > have

>> > this in your books? IF no one does, then we can assume that there is good

>> > chance that these western authors (worsely, ross etc) are MSUing... Fine,

>> > but let us call things for what they are...

>> >

>> > But as far as a small mention in the neijing about personality types, this

>> > is far from 'ample proof' that the Chinese used this system with any

>> > efficacy or even used it at all in some mainstream way; that is complete

>> > lunacy... They probably weren't even using it much at the time of neijing,

>> > hence the limited time spent discussing it... Your whole contingency is

>> > based on two big word 'MAY HAVE...' - I don't buy 'may haves'.... Ideas

>> > that

>> > work, become mainstream, and we should find that type of usage (or others)

>> > somewhere in the Chinese texts, modern or pre-modern... I look forward to

>> > more 'proof'...

>> >

>> > -Jason

>> >

>> > As this was mentioned in one text that survived should be

>>> >> ample proof that others may have added to this is good for the

>>> >> profession.

>>> >> As an aside, Unschuld has mentioned the Mahuangdui manuscripts and jing

>>> >> luo.

>>> >> Do we believe in their existence because they were mentioned? Where

>>> >> does

>>> >> this put us in regards to the modern Korean research photos of very small

>>> >> vessels running along know channel trajectories? These are things we

>>> >> need

>>> >> to consider as a profession. I can understand your skepticism. I will

>>> >> try

>>> >> to find info as I unpack.

>>> >> Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>>>> >> > " "

>>>> >> >

>>>> >> >RE: Re: Personality Types

>>>> >> >Thu, 10 Feb 2005 07:37:39 -0700

>>>> >> >

>>> >>

>> >

>> > Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including

>> > board approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a

>> > free discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>> >

February 11, 2005

Jill,

I took a look at your link and found that the graph is age adjusted

(extrapolation) and noted a low rate of certain cancers back in the 30¹s. I

checked the CDC site and found that incidence of cancer was very large for

2001. I think that we understand that an incidence of cancer led to

mortality back then. What we see is that large numbers of cancer patients

now are living longer with it. This graph does not have enough info to

determine its accuracy. I came away with more questions then answers as to

its relevance. I wish that I had never taken statistics in college.

Later

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

On 2/11/05 9:31 PM, " Jill A. Likkel " <jilllikkel wrote:

>

> , " mike Bowser "

> <naturaldoc1@h...> wrote:

>> > Visits to hospitals as well as number of people sick were way down

> during

>> > this time period. Cancer, for example, was a rarity and not like

> it is

>> > today.

>

> Hi Mike,

> This may be off topic but..

>

> According to this graph cancer wasn't rare in the 1930's.

>

> http://www.cancer.org/downloads/stt/Age-

> Adjusted_Cancer_Death_Rates,_Females_by_Site,_US,_1930-2001.pdf

>

> Some cancers are lower now such as stomach cancer and some are

> higher, such as lung and bronchus. For those that are interested

> there is also a graph for cancers of men in the same time period.

> Of course there is the 'lies, damn lies and statistics' effect but

> what evidence do you have?

>

> Mike: Yes there were people that died due to starvation and other

> causes.

>> > Disease due to excessive dietary consumption were down.

>

> Jill: Where does this come from?

>

> Kinda makes sense,

>> > huh?

>> > Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

>

> Sorry Mike, not really...

>

> Jill Likkel

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including board

> approved continuing education classes, an annual conference and a free

> discussion forum in Chinese Herbal Medicine.

>

February 12, 2005

CDC site and found that incidence of cancer was very large for

2001.

>>>Also, most of the increase in CA is in older population and people did not

even live long enough to get the CA they are getting today.

February 12, 2005

Having practiced in several widely differing communities over 20 years, I can

appreciate both points of view below. In some pockets of the U.S., a majority of

people become impatient and even angry with anything that smacks of personal

responsibility for one's health. In other more enlightened areas, one may see

more of Karla's type of situation. In many urbans areas, there will tend to be a

mixture, depending upon which social groups one is hooked up with. If one is in

an area with too many of Todd's couch-potato types, in a profession like ours

this can quickly lead to burnout. I advise my own students when choosing where

to locate their practice, that they do a careful demographic analysis of the

community before relocating. Number of health food stores, environmental

awareness, tolerance of new ideas, educational levels, opportunities for outdoor

exercise and recreation, level of support for the arts are all factors that

correlate with the ideal type of situation that Karla describes. For example, a

community like Butte, Montana, which is a toxic SuperFund site, with levels of

heavy metal contamination that is so severe that the trees are stunted for miles

from the city, does not attract health-conscious types of people. An alternative

health practitioner there would be very frustrated. Unfortunately, with

corporations increasingly being allowed to get away with toxic products, home

building materials, offices, and many work places, these tend to overwhelm

people to the point that many will resent your even mentioning the possibility

that these factors might be responsible for their health problems. Once one

begins pulling on the threads that connect to these problems, a giant mess

begins to unravel, and it takes a lot of psychological skills to guide people

through it. It's easier to deny all of it and ask for a pill to temporarily

relieve the pain.

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

> " karla_renaud " <karlarenaud

>Re: Personality Types

>

>Wow, Todd - how very cynical, this saddens me. I know you're

>probably being flippant, but still...

>I do not have this experience with my patients. Sure, some want a

>quick fix if they have a simple physical problem -- put his back out

>lifting something, sprained an ankle, got Bell's palsy, and so would

>I.

> I do see a lot of transformation in the lives of my patients,

>especially in chronic diseases or internal medicine. They want the

>advice, books I lend them, diet suggestions, qi gong videos,

>referrals to good yoga teachers I know. They appreciate the fact

>that they can start handling the problems in their life with more

>calm and awareness, and even start changing their lives to lessen

>some of those problems and stressors.

>That's just being a good practitioner, read the

>Neijing. Prevention, treat future diseases before they manifest,

>yada yada.

>Karla

>

> , " "

> wrote:

>>

>> Lets get real. the masses have no interest in this and never

>will, especially with the

>> promise of stem cells around the corner. We are a fat indulgent

>country and all the new

>> info we have on health has coinsided with the largest increase in

>obesity in american

>> history. Our patients want noniatrogenic relief and rarely much

>else. Lets give them what

>> they want and not try and play priest or guru anymore.

>>

>

---Roger Wicke, PhD, TCM Clinical Herbalist

contact: www.rmhiherbal.org/contact/

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute, Hot Springs, Montana USA

Clinical herbology training programs - www.rmhiherbal.org

February 12, 2005

I, personally think that environmental toxins is probably a bigger

contributor and that people who live longer are accumulating or holding more

toxins, ie can cause more cellular damage.

>>>No question it is a problem but we still do not know with any confidence

what is the true impact.I cannot except muscle testing (O-ring or any other

version), EAV or any other electrodermal testing as sufficient evidence

(although interesting and with time may yield evidence). Since we find

environmental toxins in almost equal amounts in healthy and sick population

(i.e. one can find evidence to support either argument) we are still functioning

in a territory of belief.By the way we just started our study testing 3 popular

labs for heavy metal urine testing. We are sending sample for 6 patients with

split samples to each lab. Thus we will find if they have both inter and intra

agreement.

February 12, 2005

I, personally think that environmental toxins is probably a bigger

contributor and that people who live longer are accumulating or holding more

toxins, ie can cause more cellular damage.

Mike W. Bowser, L Ac

> " " <alonmarcus

>

>Re: Personality Types

>Sat, 12 Feb 2005 08:59:44 -0600

>

>CDC site and found that incidence of cancer was very large for

>2001.

> >>>Also, most of the increase in CA is in older population and people did

>not even live long enough to get the CA they are getting today.

>

February 12, 2005

You might then be interested in a CDC toxin study in which Bill Moyers took

part in. I am not sure if it is on their site or not. I think on a great

many of the chemicals listed in the MSDS (material safety data safety) we

know they are hazardous and to what degree. You can never be 100% absolute

as amount of exposure and time play a large role in the damage.

>>>Mike as i said there is conflicting information. obviously there are many

very dangerous chemicals for which we have very clear information. I am talking

about average exposure studies.

February 12, 2005

Perhaps in areas where acupuncture & Chinese herbs are more mainstream, such as

Calif, one sees the type of patients who treat it the same as going to an MD to

get a magic pill to " fix me. "

Do those of you practicing there find this is true?

I would think, however, that Calif is more enlightened about health matters in

general, as insurance will pay for it, and all the " alternative, holistic "

health care ideas seem to start there and spread to the rest of US. Do you

think insurance paying for it changes patient's attitudes about it?

Well, Roger, your points below are good to consider, but I live and work in New

Hampshire, and not in southern NH close to liberal Massachusetts either. I

wouldn't exactly call it enlightened, and I have to do a lot of public education

about Chi Med to people who don't know much, and even very basic health

education for my patients. We've only had Lic Ac laws since 1997 and there are

under 100 Lic Ac (not all active) in NH so far. Our legal scope of practice is

great though, we learned from other states, so that was an advantage enacting

laws so recently. Everyone must be NCCAOM certified, even chiropractors

(couldn't do anything about MDs).

Having lived in Vermont, Calif, Austin, Boston and then moving to Concord NH

several years ago, just seeing people in grocery stores was a shock (a large

number of obese people and the crap in their carts), & many couch potato types,

smokers too. This isn't the ideal place I would have chosen to live for my own

eclectic cultural, political, & social life interests (it's conservative, no

good restaurants or concerts, there are more motorcycles per capita in NH than

any other state and too many snowmobiles), but I feel I am really needed and

useful here, and being an outdoorswoman the natural beauty here is great.

Having lived all over the US and all over the world, I've found that niche

communities do exist everywhere, one just has to search them out (for personal

interests as well as finding patients professionally). That can be a base, and

word spreads from there, and then you go out and tell more people using language

they will relate to and understand.

Perhaps the " live free or die " attitude in NH, which means there are no laws

requiring seat belt use in cars or helmets for motorcyclists, also makes people

more receptive to personal responsibilty and living with the consequences of the

choices one makes, eh?

People respond to one's attitude and intent (helping them not lecturing them).

My own mission when starting this work was literally " I will help people be

more comfortable with transformation. " --and that's still my main goal.

Presenting things as good old-fashioned common sense, that works around here! I

use lots of nature metaphors, car and sports metaphors about how to live and

take care of oneself. Being an optimist, I believe people want to transform

and will change, it's just scary without guidance, support, and encouragement.

Provide that safe atmosphere with treatment and it just happens naturally. I

don't push it, it just unfolds.

I do like all the demographics factors you mention below, I can see how they

would be good predictors. Some us nuts have to expand this profession into new

territories though!

Karla

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>