Guest guest Report post Posted April 6, 2003 No, I don't think otherwise. Fa re is clearly heat effusion, and as others pointed out, the Chinese didn't have ways of measuring BBT until fairly recently in their history. However, as Alon mentioned, most patients with strong fevers do exhibit signs of heat effusion. This is my experience as well. They are not equivalents, but may have similarities in context. On the other hand, I've had patients who have subnormal BBT with heat effusion, with swollen glands, sore throat and achiness. However, you mentioned that the patient had a fever with feeling very sick. Dan Bensky once taught in a seminar that one factor that distinguishes warm disease progression from shang han is the feeling of being very sick fairly quickly (hard to get out of bed, a 'toxic' feeling, aching all over, severe fatigue, nausea, etc.). Symptoms such as heat effusion have to be read in context of all other symptoms before interpreting them conclusively. A fever can be useful clinical information, but it must be reframed within the context of pattern differentiation. I was reading your case description in context. That is why I asked you for more information. How is the patient doing? Care to share your prescription with us? All the best, On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 08:49 AM, wrote: > The situation is not about the case (pulse, tongue, or even how high > the fever is). It is about about how we interpret FEVER ( basal body > temp). I personally DO NOT see justification for calling a fever > (basal body temp) heat effusion. You both seem to think otherwise... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 6, 2003 Cara - I have to agree with your assessment here and it is probably the reason for the product design and distribution. It works better. I have to think it is also better at suppression. Will On a related vein: I know this question is outside the "party line", but has anyone ever had the thought that the yin qiao san that is made w/ acetaminophen could actually create a positive drug and herb interaction for reducing wind heat fevers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 6, 2003 Valid concerns with which I agree. Will Morris There are other drugs in the 'extra strength' yin qiao that seem to have stimulant qualities. Several patients who bought this drug-'patent' reported hyperactivity and difficulty sleeping. Then, we have not only herb-drug interactions, but drug-drug interactions. Quite dangerous if you ask me. Acetaminophen or aspirin might work with yin qiao san (Zhang Xi-chun used to combine aspirin with shi gao) in certain cases, but I'd rather that be the choice of the practitioner or patient rather than them unknowingly getting drugs with their herbs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 6, 2003 What about the guizhitang with high fever (BBT)? >>>The patient should not have a quick, tilde pulse and radiating body heat. What i have found to be more difficult, in china, is patients that are septic. They often have high fever and feel cold. I saw dry that treated these has heat and others more as cold alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 6, 2003 There are other drugs in the 'extra strength' yin qiao that seem to have stimulant qualities. Several patients who bought this drug-'patent' reported hyperactivity and difficulty sleeping. Then, we have not only herb-drug interactions, but drug-drug interactions. Quite dangerous if you ask me. Acetaminophen or aspirin might work with yin qiao san (Zhang Xi-chun used to combine aspirin with shi gao) in certain cases, but I'd rather that be the choice of the practitioner or patient rather than them unknowingly getting drugs with their herbs. On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 06:39 PM, WMorris116 wrote: > > On a related vein: I know this question is outside the " party line " , > but has > anyone ever had the thought that the yin qiao san that is made w/ > acetaminophen could actually create a positive drug and herb > interaction for > reducing wind heat fevers? > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 6, 2003 Z'ev, Have you heard of Empirin Compound? It's aspirin with caffeine. It's still made, but was especially popular in the 50s and 60s. Many Taiwanese companies make Yin Qiao with both aspirin alone or with Empirin Compound. Emmanuel Segmen There are other drugs in the 'extra strength' yin qiao that seem to have stimulant qualities. Several patients who bought this drug-'patent' reported hyperactivity and difficulty sleeping. Then, we have not only herb-drug interactions, but drug-drug interactions. Quite dangerous if you ask me.Acetaminophen or aspirin might work with yin qiao san (Zhang Xi-chun used to combine aspirin with shi gao) in certain cases, but I'd rather that be the choice of the practitioner or patient rather than them unknowingly getting drugs with their herbs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 6, 2003 Nope, haven't heard of it. What do you think of this? What effects have you seen? Z'ev On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 08:20 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > Z'ev, > Have you heard of Empirin Compound? It's aspirin with caffeine. It's > still made, but was especially popular in the 50s and 60s. Many > Taiwanese companies make Yin Qiao with both aspirin alone or with > Empirin Compound. > Emmanuel Segmen > > > There are other drugs in the 'extra strength' yin qiao that seem to > have stimulant qualities. Several patients who bought this > drug-'patent' reported hyperactivity and difficulty sleeping. Then, we > have not only herb-drug interactions, but drug-drug interactions. > Quite dangerous if you ask me. > > Acetaminophen or aspirin might work with yin qiao san (Zhang Xi-chun > used to combine aspirin with shi gao) in certain cases, but I'd rather > that be the choice of the practitioner or patient rather than them > unknowingly getting drugs with their herbs. > > > > <image.tiff> > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 6, 2003 ditto Excedrin. Nope, haven't heard of it. What do you think of this? What effects have you seen?Z'evOn Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 08:20 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: Z'ev,Have you heard of Empirin Compound? It's aspirin with caffeine. It's still made, but was especially popular in the 50s and 60s. Many Taiwanese companies make Yin Qiao with both aspirin alone or with Empirin Compound.Emmanuel SegmenThere are other drugs in the 'extra strength' yin qiao that seem to have stimulant qualities. Several patients who bought this drug-'patent' reported hyperactivity and difficulty sleeping. Then, we have not only herb-drug interactions, but drug-drug interactions. Quite dangerous if you ask me.Acetaminophen or aspirin might work with yin qiao san (Zhang Xi-chun used to combine aspirin with shi gao) in certain cases, but I'd rather that be the choice of the practitioner or patient rather than them unknowingly getting drugs with their herbs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 7, 2003 Ditto. But there have been many instances in my practice over the years when I felt the combo best suited my patients. For instance: pneumonia: I agree that it should be treated w/ antibiotics, however I have no confidence tat antibiotics alone can resolve the phlegm, stop cough, let alone assist people in recovering their energy. They recover more fully when also given herbs. There was a study w/in the past couple of years that showed that Nettles reduced inflammation and helped drugs to reach receptor sites more efficiently. So the same amnt of meds can be more effective or less meds can be as effective. Cara Valid concerns with which I agree. Will Morris There are other drugs in the 'extra strength' yin qiao that seem to have stimulant qualities. Several patients who bought this drug-'patent' reported hyperactivity and difficulty sleeping. Then, we have not only herb-drug interactions, but drug-drug interactions. Quite dangerous if you ask me. Acetaminophen or aspirin might work with yin qiao san (Zhang Xi-chun used to combine aspirin with shi gao) in certain cases, but I'd rather that be the choice of the practitioner or patient rather than them unknowingly getting drugs with their herbs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 7, 2003 I'm surprised you've not seen this. Maybe my "advanced age" of 54 is telling. Empirin is just aspirin and caffeine. It makes it possible to go to work in the morning when there's a cold. Not the best of choices, but some people seem to lack choices or feel they do. The effect is CNS stimulation. Emmanuel Segmen Nope, haven't heard of it. What do you think of this? What effects have you seen?Z'evOn Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 08:20 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: Z'ev,Have you heard of Empirin Compound? It's aspirin with caffeine. It's still made, but was especially popular in the 50s and 60s. Many Taiwanese companies make Yin Qiao with both aspirin alone or with Empirin Compound.Emmanuel Segmen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 7, 2003 No, I didn't mean that. I meant mixed with herb formulas. Which ones do you know that have it? On Monday, April 7, 2003, at 07:34 AM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > I'm surprised you've not seen this. Maybe my " advanced age " of 54 is > telling. Empirin is just aspirin and caffeine. It makes it possible > to go to work in the morning when there's a cold. Not the best of > choices, but some people seem to lack choices or feel they do. The > effect is CNS stimulation. > Emmanuel Segmen > > > > Nope, haven't heard of it. What do you think of this? What effects > have you seen? > > Z'ev > On Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 08:20 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: > > Z'ev, > Have you heard of Empirin Compound? It's aspirin with caffeine. It's > still made, but was especially popular in the 50s and 60s. Many > Taiwanese companies make Yin Qiao with both aspirin alone or with > Empirin Compound. > Emmanuel Segmen > > <image.tiff> > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 7, 2003 When I was in Taiwan, I noticed that each company had several. I didn't think they were marketing in the U.S. They all have the ingredients listed including caffeine, aspirin, etc. Apparently you are finding such items now in the U.S. I'm surprised by that as marketing things like aspirin is hard for a foreign company. Emmanuel Segmen - Monday, April 07, 2003 7:47 AM Re: Re: Fever (real) No, I didn't mean that. I meant mixed with herb formulas. Which ones do you know that have it? On Monday, April 7, 2003, at 07:34 AM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote: I'm surprised you've not seen this. Maybe my "advanced age" of 54 is telling. Empirin is just aspirin and caffeine. It makes it possible to go to work in the morning when there's a cold. Not the best of choices, but some people seem to lack choices or feel they do. The effect is CNS stimulation.Emmanuel Segmen Nope, haven't heard of it. What do you think of this? What effects have you seen?Z'evOn Sunday, April 6, 2003, at 08:20 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:Z'ev,Have you heard of Empirin Compound? It's aspirin with caffeine. It's still made, but was especially popular in the 50s and 60s. Many Taiwanese companies make Yin Qiao with both aspirin alone or with Empirin Compound.Emmanuel Segmen<image.tiff> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 7, 2003 There are other drugs in the 'extra strength' yin qiao that seem to have stimulant qualities. Several patients who bought this drug-'patent' reported hyperactivity and difficulty sleeping. Then, we have not only herb-drug interactions, but drug-drug interactions. Quite dangerous if you ask me >>>There is an antihistamine and caffeine, nothing dangerous Alon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 7, 2003 I remember a few years ago seeing a yin qiao with more stuff in it. Also, some of the drugs in these products are not on the label. On Monday, April 7, 2003, at 08:43 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote: > There are other drugs in the 'extra strength' yin qiao that seem to > have stimulant qualities. Several patients who bought this > drug-'patent' reported hyperactivity and difficulty sleeping. Then, we > have not only herb-drug interactions, but drug-drug interactions. > Quite dangerous if you ask me > >>>There is an antihistamine and caffeine, nothing dangerous > Alon > Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 7, 2003 That combination [aspirin and caffeine] is also in most of the body building supplements made by GNC et all mixed with guess what? Ma Huang. This combination has been very popular with body builders for some time, and is frequently a source of the problems that we have only recently been bemoaning. One of the reasons I have been so irked by the reaction to Ma Huang in this whole mess has been that these other very active ingredients have been ignored as a cofactor. I believe the sports medicine article from Baylor University that was posted here mentioned them in passing. Par - Emmanuel Segmen Sunday, April 06, 2003 8:20 PM Re: Re: Fever (real) Z'ev, Have you heard of Empirin Compound? It's aspirin with caffeine. It's still made, but was especially popular in the 50s and 60s. Many Taiwanese companies make Yin Qiao with both aspirin alone or with Empirin Compound. Emmanuel Segmen There are other drugs in the 'extra strength' yin qiao that seem to have stimulant qualities. Several patients who bought this drug-'patent' reported hyperactivity and difficulty sleeping. Then, we have not only herb-drug interactions, but drug-drug interactions. Quite dangerous if you ask me.Acetaminophen or aspirin might work with yin qiao san (Zhang Xi-chun used to combine aspirin with shi gao) in certain cases, but I'd rather that be the choice of the practitioner or patient rather than them unknowingly getting drugs with their herbs. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest guest Report post Posted April 7, 2003 , " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> wrote: One of the reasons I have been so irked by the reaction to Ma Huang in this whole mess has been that these other very active ingredients have been ignored as a cofactor. I thought aspirin prevents heart attacks from ma huang and that is why it is in these products. I may be wrong about the combo, but ma huang can kill all by itself. I just learned that the american Herbal Products Association has taken a position to support a general ban on ma huang with exemptions for licensed practitioners. that works for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
