which powders are best?

[Guest guest]

I'll take my chances.

 

KPC has been my favorite so far.

I was using Lotus/Evergreen for a while, because their product is less course and more powdery.

When encapsualting this is important, as to pack more product per capsule.

BUT, Many of their products smell like plastic

 

-

Rory Kerr

Sunday, January 12, 2003 6:28 PM

Re: which powders are best?

At 9:23 PM +0000 1/12/03, < wrote:>DO not post negative comments about>specific products unless you want to risk liability. this is a >public forum and libel laws apply here.--Yow! You mean that saying that you don't think a company's products compares well to it's competitors is going to get us sued for libel? That seems unlikely.Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I like KPC powders. Whatever producer Blue Poppy Herbs uses, I also

find their products quite potent. The best, unfortunately, are no

longer available, those are the Nakamura herb granules, that used to be

distributed by Kanpo Herb Co. in California and Meridian Herbs in New

England (neither company exists any more). They were handmade by a

Japanese herbalist, organic when possible.

 

The powders I avoid are Sun Ten/Brion. In the past (I started with

them 20 years ago), I found batches of herbs to be uneven, and unlike

other powders, there was no smell or fragrance to the herbs.

 

 

 

 

On Sunday, January 12, 2003, at 09:01 AM, Rory Kerr wrote:

 

> I'm trying to decide which desiccated powder company to go with. I'd

> appreciate some opinions as to the best combination of price and

> quality.

> - Who do you prefer?

> - Who do you avoid?

>

> Thanks.

>

> Rory

> --

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " "

<zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> I like KPC powders.

 

 

 

Ditto.

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz

<jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote:

> , " "

> <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> > I like KPC powders.

>

>

>

> Ditto.

>

> Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

Same here.

 

Robert Hayden

[Guest guest]

, " James Ramholz <

jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote:

> , " "

> <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> > I like KPC powders.

>

>

>

> Ditto.

>

> Jim Ramholz

 

 

ditto again. a word to the wise. DO not post negative comments about

specific products unless you want to risk liability. this is a public forum and

libel laws apply here.

 

[Guest guest]

At 9:23 PM +0000 1/12/03, < wrote:

>DO not post negative comments about

>specific products unless you want to risk liability. this is a

>public forum and libel laws apply here.

--

 

Yow! You mean that saying that you don't think a company's products

compares well to it's competitors is going to get us sued for libel?

That seems unlikely.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

I use products from " Treasures of the East " . (Blue Light, Inc. Ithica, NY)

 

I'm told by my peers from China that these products have no (or less?)

fillers added to maintain consistancy of potency across batches.

 

They're definately different than the other powders I've used, such as

KPC and Evergreen. They melt easily in humid weather which makes

cleaning up a little more work, but I really like how well they work,

very much.

 

Their customer service is fine, usually native English speakers, however

getting the herbs from Ithica NY to Santa Monica, CA can take anywhere

from the 2 days that the USPS advertises to more like 7 working days.

 

They don't have all the herbs and formulas that I use. So, I order my

Fu Zi, Wu Wei Xiao Du Yin, and Xiao Feng San from Evergreen.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/14/2003 10:52:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, list writes:

 

I'm interested to hear if

anyone here has used either Mayway or Natural Program granules. Natural

Program is distributed from Vancouver, Canada, so the exchange rate

savings is attractive. I went to their store and the employee said they

are manufactured in Taiwan.

 

Does Natural Program have a website? Where can I find information on them?

Thanks,

Anne

[Guest guest]

When we were comparing various producers for our acupuncture clinic at

school, we compared KPC, Lotus, and Min Tong. Several of us thought

that Min Tong had the most potent smell and taste. I don't know if that

means they are any better or not, but that's what we found. The school

ended up ordering KPC. Personally, I don't like the fine powder, since

it's a hassle to clean up since it adheres to everything. Lotus

granules I believe are pretty finely ground compared to KPC.

 

I have used a little bit of Mayway granules but don't have enough

experience to say if they work well or not. I'm interested to hear if

anyone here has used either Mayway or Natural Program granules. Natural

Program is distributed from Vancouver, Canada, so the exchange rate

savings is attractive. I went to their store and the employee said they

are manufactured in Taiwan.

 

> __________

>

> Message: 6

> Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:28:01 -0800

> Al Stone <alstone

> Re: Re: which powders are best?

>

> I use products from " Treasures of the East " . (Blue Light,

> Inc. Ithica, NY)

>

> I'm told by my peers from China that these products have no

> (or less?) fillers added to maintain consistancy of potency

> across batches.

>

> They're definately different than the other powders I've

> used, such as KPC and Evergreen.

[Guest guest]

Seems to me that there has been a conspicuous lack of real evidence

presented to substantiate people's choice of herb powders. Mostly what

I've read here are choices based on very subjective parameters such as

smell, taste, fineness of powder, etc. One person has said they

don't like Sun Ten (Brion) and another person has said they think

they are the best. One person has said they like the finer

ground powders and another has said they do not. As someone in the

industry, I am constantly amazed that, by and large, customers do not

ask more substantial questions regarding potency, purity, efficacy,

etc. Some people have voted in this forum for some brands which are

generally known within the industry to have a dubious reputation.

 

As both a practitioner who prescribes Chinese meds and someone who

manufacturers and markets a line of extracts, here's the kinds of

questions I would be asking of my suppliers:

 

1. How are your products made? There are different processes out

there. I want to know exactly the steps and procedures used to

manufacture a product I am going to prescribe (and become legally

responsible for prescribing). I want to know exactly what happens from

the time the raw materials enter the factory till the finished product

is packaged for shipment.

 

2. Where are your products made and who provides the quality

assurance? For instance, is there state or national certification or

licensing?

 

3. Do you have certificates of analysis (COA) showing that what you

say is in the product is actually there? Are copies of these available

to consumers upon request?

 

4. How are your products chosen or created? Who is the formulator and

what are his or her credentials?

 

5. What is the extract ratio?

 

6. Do you use any fillers or binders and, if so, what are they?

 

7. Do you use any sugars, artificial colors, or artificial flavors in

your products? If so, what are they and why do you use them?

 

8. Do you have your products tested for:

 

A) microbial contamination?

B) heavy metals?

C) pesticides?

 

If so, where are they tested? Who tests them? How often are they

tested? Are tbey tested in-house or by an independent company. What

specifically are they tested for, and what are the outcomes of these

tests? Are copies of these outcomes available to consumers upon

request?

 

9. Do you have any research or other evidence that supports your

product's safety and efficacy? If so, what kind of research or

evidence, done by whom and where?

 

10. What is your company's position on CITES (Commission on

international Trade in Endangered Species) and the use of endangered

species in medicine? What is your comapny's track record on these

issues?

 

11. What is your company's general environmental policy and track

record? Do you have an in-house recylcing program? Do you try to use

recycled papers and soy-based inks. Do you try to use chlorine free

papers? Do you use recyclable plastics in your packaging? Do you try

to keep you packaging to a minimum? While one may say that these

issues do not directly affect a medicinal's effectiveness, in my

experience, companies which are conscious and conscientious about

these kinds of things are less likely to produce a shoddy or unsafe

product.

 

12. Do you make a conscious and consistent effort to inform yourself

and comply with FDA regulations regarding the manufacture, packaging,

and labelling of herbal supplements?

 

13. Are you a member in good standing of AHPA (American Herb Producers

Assoc.)? If not, why not?

 

These are the kinds of questions I like to have answered before I buy

a product that I am going to become responsible for prescribing. I can

also tell you, these are the kinds of questions that get asked in a

court of law when there are problems with Chinese herbal products.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Todd:

 

These are excellent questions. Would you consider that, like the

COMP standards of the publishers, the profession establish herbal

formula standards based on these questions?

 

Would it be in the interests of the CHA to establish a committee?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " Bob Flaws

<pemachophel2001> " <pemachophel2001> wrote:

> Seems to me that there has been a conspicuous lack of real

evidence

> presented to substantiate people's choice of herb powders. Mostly

what

> I've read here are choices based on very subjective parameters

such as

> smell, taste, fineness of powder, etc. One person has said they

> don't like Sun Ten (Brion) and another person has said they think

> they are the best. One person has said they like the finer

> ground powders and another has said they do not. As someone in the

> industry, I am constantly amazed that, by and large, customers do

not

> ask more substantial questions regarding potency, purity,

efficacy,

> etc. Some people have voted in this forum for some brands which

are

> generally known within the industry to have a dubious reputation.

>

> As both a practitioner who prescribes Chinese meds and someone who

> manufacturers and markets a line of extracts, here's the kinds of

> questions I would be asking of my suppliers:

>

> 1. How are your products made? There are different processes out

> there. I want to know exactly the steps and procedures used to

> manufacture a product I am going to prescribe (and become legally

> responsible for prescribing). I want to know exactly what happens

from

> the time the raw materials enter the factory till the finished

product

> is packaged for shipment.

>

> 2. Where are your products made and who provides the quality

> assurance? For instance, is there state or national certification

or

> licensing?

>

> 3. Do you have certificates of analysis (COA) showing that what

you

> say is in the product is actually there? Are copies of these

available

> to consumers upon request?

>

> 4. How are your products chosen or created? Who is the formulator

and

> what are his or her credentials?

>

> 5. What is the extract ratio?

>

> 6. Do you use any fillers or binders and, if so, what are they?

>

> 7. Do you use any sugars, artificial colors, or artificial flavors

in

> your products? If so, what are they and why do you use them?

>

> 8. Do you have your products tested for:

>

> A) microbial contamination?

> B) heavy metals?

> C) pesticides?

>

> If so, where are they tested? Who tests them? How often are they

> tested? Are tbey tested in-house or by an independent company.

What

> specifically are they tested for, and what are the outcomes of

these

> tests? Are copies of these outcomes available to consumers upon

> request?

>

> 9. Do you have any research or other evidence that supports your

> product's safety and efficacy? If so, what kind of research or

> evidence, done by whom and where?

>

> 10. What is your company's position on CITES (Commission on

> international Trade in Endangered Species) and the use of

endangered

> species in medicine? What is your comapny's track record on these

> issues?

>

> 11. What is your company's general environmental policy and track

> record? Do you have an in-house recylcing program? Do you try to

use

> recycled papers and soy-based inks. Do you try to use chlorine

free

> papers? Do you use recyclable plastics in your packaging? Do you

try

> to keep you packaging to a minimum? While one may say that these

> issues do not directly affect a medicinal's effectiveness, in my

> experience, companies which are conscious and conscientious about

> these kinds of things are less likely to produce a shoddy or

unsafe

> product.

>

> 12. Do you make a conscious and consistent effort to inform

yourself

> and comply with FDA regulations regarding the manufacture,

packaging,

> and labelling of herbal supplements?

>

> 13. Are you a member in good standing of AHPA (American Herb

Producers

> Assoc.)? If not, why not?

>

> These are the kinds of questions I like to have answered before I

buy

> a product that I am going to become responsible for prescribing. I

can

> also tell you, these are the kinds of questions that get asked in

a

> court of law when there are problems with Chinese herbal products.

>

> Bob

[Guest guest]

As a practioner also within this industry I totally agree with you have laid out.

"Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001" <pemachophel2001 wrote:

Seems to me that there has been a conspicuous lack of real evidence presented to substantiate people's choice of herb powders. Mostly what I've read here are choices based on very subjective parameters such as smell, taste, fineness of powder, etc. One person has said they don't like Sun Ten (Brion) and another person has said they think they are the best. One person has said they like the finer ground powders and another has said they do not. As someone in the industry, I am constantly amazed that, by and large, customers do not ask more substantial questions regarding potency, purity, efficacy, etc. Some people have voted in this forum for some brands which are generally known within the industry to have a dubious reputation. As both a practitioner who prescribes Chinese meds and someone who manufacturers and markets a line of extracts, here's the kinds of questions I would be asking of my suppliers:1. How are your products made? There are different processes out there. I want to know exactly the steps and procedures used to manufacture a product I am going to prescribe (and become legally responsible for prescribing). I want to know exactly what happens from the time the raw materials enter the factory till the finished product is packaged for shipment.2. Where are your products made and who provides the quality assurance? For instance, is there state or national certification or licensing? 3. Do you have certificates of analysis (COA) showing that what you say is in the product is actually there? Are copies of these available to consumers upon request?4. How are your products chosen or created? Who is the formulator and what are his or her credentials?5. What is the extract ratio?6. Do you use any fillers or binders and, if so, what are they?7. Do you use any sugars, artificial colors, or artificial flavors in your products? If so, what are they and why do you use them?8. Do you have your products tested for: A) microbial contamination? B) heavy metals? C) pesticides? If so, where are they tested? Who tests them? How often are they tested? Are tbey tested in-house or by an independent company. What specifically are they tested for, and what are the outcomes of these tests? Are copies of these outcomes available to consumers upon request?9. Do you have any research or other evidence that supports your product's safety and efficacy? If so, what kind of research or evidence, done by whom and where? 10. What is your company's position on CITES (Commission on international Trade in Endangered Species) and the use of endangered species in medicine? What is your comapny's track record on these issues?11. What is your company's general environmental policy and track record? Do you have an in-house recylcing program? Do you try to use recycled papers and soy-based inks. Do you try to use chlorine free papers? Do you use recyclable plastics in your packaging? Do you try to keep you packaging to a minimum? While one may say that these issues do not directly affect a medicinal's effectiveness, in my experience, companies which are conscious and conscientious about these kinds of things are less likely to produce a shoddy or unsafe product.12. Do you make a conscious and consistent effort to inform yourself and comply with FDA regulations regarding the manufacture, packaging, and labelling of herbal supplements? 13. Are you a member in good standing of AHPA (American Herb Producers Assoc.)? If not, why not?These are the kinds of questions I like to have answered before I buy a product that I am going to become responsible for prescribing. I can also tell you, these are the kinds of questions that get asked in a court of law when there are problems with Chinese herbal products.BobChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

James,

 

I believe you meant to direct your question to me. In any case, there

is a CM herb supplier working committee already established within

AHPA that is working on these issues. The goal is to create a sort of

" green label " or guarantee of purity (but not efficacy). Products

would be tested by an independent laboratory which would then certify

that the products contained what they said they did, nothing else, and

certain limits to pesticides, microbes, and heavy metals. Products

that passed this screening process would be able to affix the label to

their packages similar to how organic produce is labelled in the

healthfood store or similar to labelling on dolphin-free tunafish

cans.

 

Although this process does not address all the issues that have been

raised in this forum surrounding safety, purity, and efficacy of CM

extracts, it would be a great beginning. At the very least, it would

make it much easier to determine which products were free from

deliberate or unconscious adulteration.

 

However, there has been a saying for many centuries, " Caveat emptor, "

let the buyer beware. Ultimately, it is up to the consumer to ask the

relevant questions and make the necessary comparisons. My point was

that, as yet, I do not hear members of this profession asking informed

questions. In my experience, choice of brand seems to be made mostly

on the basis of advertising copy, which is, ipso facto, slanted in the

direction of the advertiser. I've seen some pretty slick advertising

from some companies implying their great quality control but then not

backed up by anything other than generalities and store-bought clip

art.

 

Last year, Blue Poppy Herbs conducting a marketing research into why

people bought the brands of CM they do. It was very interesting in

that there was a very large disconnect between the reasons given for

buying a certain brand and the realities behind some of those brands.

 

As a for instance of what someone might profitably do, I would

definitely support a consumer's report created by one or more members

of this forum researching and then presenting in print or on-line a

comparison on the various CM extracts on the market in terms of their

concentration ratio or potency. Such a report could be published in

Oriental Medicine or in one or more of the state or national

newsletters. It shouldn't take much to create such a report. In

theory, all one should have to do is call each company and ask them

their concentration ratios. Then, if any company declined to disclose

this information, that could also be noted in the report. If a company

knowingly reported a false concentration ratio, that would be grounds

for prosecution for fraud.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Anne,

Their website is: http://www.naturalprogram.com/

 

They gave me a password for their practitioner prices, contact me if you

want it. I don't think they want the password posted to the internet.

 

Geoff

 

> __________

>

> Message: 11

> Tue, 14 Jan 2003 14:17:42 EST

> ajeffres

> Re: Re: which powders are best?

>

> In a message dated 1/14/2003 10:52:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> list writes:

>

> > I'm interested to hear if

> > anyone here has used either Mayway or Natural Program

> granules. Natural

> > Program is distributed from Vancouver, Canada, so the exchange rate

> > savings is attractive. I went to their store and the

> employee said they

> > are manufactured in Taiwan.

>

> Does Natural Program have a website? Where can I find

> information on them?

> Thanks,

> Anne

[Guest guest]

How are your products made? There are different processes out there. I want to know exactly the steps and procedures used to manufacture a product I am going to prescribe (and become legally responsible for prescribing). I want to know exactly what happens from the time the raw materials enter the factory till the finished product is packaged for shipment.>>>All the ones from Taiwan are basically made by the same methods. Actually, about 15 years ago I had several brands analyzed by a tobacco company that was thinking about getting into the herb business. They all looked the same except that one had citric acid in all the samples (we did 4 herbs) and others had some other excipients. Its hard to have a quantitative analysis only qualitative.

I checked KPC, quali and mintong

Alon

 

[Guest guest]

all the information bob sited is available from the Taiwanese USA suppliers. The info will not tell you if one is better than the other. As far as potency of concentration, from what I understand that is a bit misleading question. For example all the taiwanise companies are saying that they are 5X1, in actually this varies from herb to herb. Also, I have seen some information that claims that any stronger a concentrate than about 8X1 changes some of the properties when compared to Chinese herbal decoctions. At least that is what some of the taiwanese companies have told me

alon

Alon

[Guest guest]

They gave me a password for their practitioner prices, contact me if youwant it. I don't think they want the password posted to the internet.>>How do they compare?

[Guest guest]

Bob,

I agree with you on your criteria below. . . .although we shouldn't

exclude the qualities of taste, freshness, and deliverability. I have

tried some very potent 5 to 1 extracts that soaked up moisture like a

sponge when opened, rendering them difficult to use. Some products

containing suan zao ren suffered from rancidity after a short time,

meaning that even some spray-dried powders sometimes need

refrigeration, despite claims sometimes to the contrary.

 

I do check all of the criteria you mention with suppliers, such as

GMP, COA, and manufacturing methods as well.

 

The bulk of what I used for prepared medicines are the Kan Herb

alcohol-water extractions, which extensively uses COA's, tests for

contaminants, etc. I recommend and use them widely for their quality,

and this led me to be a consultant and product advisor for them several

years ago. However, they don't make spray-dried powders, so I didn't

mention them in my earlier post.

 

Several years ago, although the details escape me now, I did check

with one company after noticing a lack of fragrance of the spray-dried

herbs, and found out that many essential oils and aromatics did escape

during their processing.

 

The checking for aroma, test, and consistency are intuitive

qualities, like that of a wine-taster. These then need to be followed

up with the more specific criteria of manufacturing methods.

 

Thank you for mentioning environmental standards. I agree that

these are important, and I applaud Blue Poppy Herbs for applying them

so stringently.

 

 

On Wednesday, January 15, 2003, at 12:39 PM, Bob Flaws

<pemachophel2001 wrote:

 

> Seems to me that there has been a conspicuous lack of real evidence

> presented to substantiate people's choice of herb powders. Mostly what

> I've read here are choices based on very subjective parameters such as

> smell, taste, fineness of powder, etc. One person has said they

> don't like Sun Ten (Brion) and another person has said they think

> they are the best. One person has said they like the finer

> ground powders and another has said they do not. As someone in the

> industry, I am constantly amazed that, by and large, customers do not

> ask more substantial questions regarding potency, purity, efficacy,

> etc. Some people have voted in this forum for some brands which are

> generally known within the industry to have a dubious reputation.

>

> As both a practitioner who prescribes Chinese meds and someone who

> manufacturers and markets a line of extracts, here's the kinds of

> questions I would be asking of my suppliers:

>

> 1. How are your products made? There are different processes out

> there. I want to know exactly the steps and procedures used to

> manufacture a product I am going to prescribe (and become legally

> responsible for prescribing). I want to know exactly what happens from

> the time the raw materials enter the factory till the finished product

> is packaged for shipment.

>

> 2. Where are your products made and who provides the quality

> assurance? For instance, is there state or national certification or

> licensing?

>

> 3. Do you have certificates of analysis (COA) showing that what you

> say is in the product is actually there? Are copies of these available

> to consumers upon request?

>

> 4. How are your products chosen or created? Who is the formulator and

> what are his or her credentials?

>

> 5. What is the extract ratio?

>

> 6. Do you use any fillers or binders and, if so, what are they?

>

> 7. Do you use any sugars, artificial colors, or artificial flavors in

> your products? If so, what are they and why do you use them?

>

> 8. Do you have your products tested for:

>

> A) microbial contamination?

> B) heavy metals?

> C) pesticides?

>

> If so, where are they tested? Who tests them? How often are they

> tested? Are tbey tested in-house or by an independent company. What

> specifically are they tested for, and what are the outcomes of these

> tests? Are copies of these outcomes available to consumers upon

> request?

>

> 9. Do you have any research or other evidence that supports your

> product's safety and efficacy? If so, what kind of research or

> evidence, done by whom and where?

>

> 10. What is your company's position on CITES (Commission on

> international Trade in Endangered Species) and the use of endangered

> species in medicine? What is your comapny's track record on these

> issues?

>

> 11. What is your company's general environmental policy and track

> record? Do you have an in-house recylcing program? Do you try to use

> recycled papers and soy-based inks. Do you try to use chlorine free

> papers? Do you use recyclable plastics in your packaging? Do you try

> to keep you packaging to a minimum? While one may say that these

> issues do not directly affect a medicinal's effectiveness, in my

> experience, companies which are conscious and conscientious about

> these kinds of things are less likely to produce a shoddy or unsafe

> product.

>

> 12. Do you make a conscious and consistent effort to inform yourself

> and comply with FDA regulations regarding the manufacture, packaging,

> and labelling of herbal supplements?

>

> 13. Are you a member in good standing of AHPA (American Herb Producers

> Assoc.)? If not, why not?

>

> These are the kinds of questions I like to have answered before I buy

> a product that I am going to become responsible for prescribing. I can

> also tell you, these are the kinds of questions that get asked in a

> court of law when there are problems with Chinese herbal products.

>

> Bob

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Geoff for the Natural Program URL.

Anne

[Guest guest]

, " Bob Flaws

<pemachophel2001> " <pemachophel2001> wrote: I believe you

meant to direct your question to me. . . Such a report could be

published in Oriental Medicine or in one or more of the state or

national newsletters. It shouldn't take much to create such a

report. >>

 

 

 

 

Bob:

 

You're right, but at the time I was thinking that this might be

something the CHA could do as a professional or consumer group.

 

Oriental Medicine was sold last year; but I suspect the new owners

would probably be interested in printing a report.

 

P.S.

Did you come to a decision about keeping your older BP titles in

print on the Web or in some electronic format? How about doing books

on CD-rom similar to Deadman's Manual of Acupuncture? They should be

inexpensive to produce and, if done in a PDF format, are searchable--

-making research easier.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

> " Bob Flaws <pemachophel2001> " <pemachophel2001>

wrote:Seems to me that there has been a conspicuous lack of real evidence

> presented to substantiate people's choice of herb powders.

 

Bob

 

I couldn't agree more with everything you said. I just got home and read some

of todays posts after lecturing to my herbs 1 class today on some of these very

issues. there are worldwide standards evolving with regard to many of these

issues. the united states stands outside the fold of other developed countries

in that the practitioner community is not demanding that professionally

prescribed herbal products meet some objective standards of purity, potency,

etc. European physicians prescribing herbs expect nothing less. At some

point if we do not self regulate, we will probably have unacceptable

restrictions imposed upon us.

 

I wonder though, if one cannot effectively evaluate herb extracts

organoleptically, and I believe this is indeed far too fallible a method for

most,

how can one evaluate raw herbs in this fashion? In that case, one really has

no option but one's naked senses. I have spent the past 15 years handling

raw herbs many hours per week. I have always worked in places with raw

herbal pharmacies. While this form is not my patient's favorite, it is my first

choice for them. I still find this form most effective. I believe you do also.

Personally, I think one can come to be able to evaluate raw herbs for quality

by appearance and smell the same way one evaluates ingredients for

cooking. One almost unconsciously compensates for variations in quality with

alterations in dosage. Yet this hardly approaches the level of accuracy I

demand for prepared products. hmmm.

 

Part of this stems from the fact that I do not believe the majority of

practitioners

intend to spend enough time with the raw herbs to learn this skill (yes, this

one more thing one can spend one's time at or not; I like this one myself,

however I believe objective standards for products can fully substitute for this

skill). So it behooves the busy practitoner to rely on something a little more

objective than their sense of smell. Plus you don't get to smell every bottle

of

herbs unless you open and sniff before dispensing. And not unless you fill all

the rx personally. just too many variables. Plus just the appearance of

sloppiness it presents to mainstream observers that we rate the quality of our

medicines by purely subjective criteria. suppliers will only step up to the

plate

if we demand it. What is that thing people do? Oh yeah, we put our money

where our mouths are. I like to support companies that provide this type of

information.

 

[Guest guest]

James,

 

Based on your good suggestion, we are currently researching bringing

out our first CD-ROM book. It'll be the Jia Yi Jing which has been out

of stock for months now due to its high hardcopy unit cost but very

low sales. I know we have decided to do this project, but, since I'm

not in the production department, I can't tell you when this first CD

will be available. However, you can ask Rick Brearton, our

publishing production manager. His e-mail address is:

panda. He should be able to give you an ETA.

 

Bob

 

, " James Ramholz

<jramholz> " <jramholz> wrote:

> , " Bob Flaws

> <pemachophel2001> " <pemachophel2001> wrote: I believe you

> meant to direct your question to me. . . Such a report could be

> published in Oriental Medicine or in one or more of the state or

> national newsletters. It shouldn't take much to create such a

> report. >>

>

>

>

>

> Bob:

>

> You're right, but at the time I was thinking that this might be

> something the CHA could do as a professional or consumer group.

>

> Oriental Medicine was sold last year; but I suspect the new owners

> would probably be interested in printing a report.

>

> P.S.

> Did you come to a decision about keeping your older BP titles in

> print on the Web or in some electronic format? How about doing books

> on CD-rom similar to Deadman's Manual of Acupuncture? They should be

> inexpensive to produce and, if done in a PDF format, are

searchable--

> -making research easier.

>

>

> Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

 

 

I agree with you about European practitioners and their governments.

Blue Poppy Herbs has an EU distributor which is also a distributor for

nutraceuticals and also pharmaceuticals. Their testing, proscribed

medicinals, and CITES adherence requirements are much more stringent

than anything we have in the U.S. Recently, we had to up the price on

our our products by $.50 per bottle wholesale in order to accommodate

these EU requirements. The up-side of that is we can now guarantee

better independent U.S. testing on each batch of every formula for our

customers which, by the way, has turned out extremely good. (For

instance, no detectable organic pesticide or chlorinated pesticide

residues, etc.)

 

An attempt was made several years ago to form a suppliers trade

association. However, not everyone was willing to play ball. I think

the best hope is the CM working group within AHPA. Two of the people

most actively involved in that group are Bill Egloff of Crane Herb and

Andy Ellis of Spring Wind. These and others also active in this group

deserve all of our support and acknowlegment.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

 

So far as I've read, no one has said they are interested in following

up on James and my suggestions to do a comparative study of various

extracts' concentration ratios (or other particulars). This would not

be a long and involved process. Each company would need to be

contacted and asked to supply their concetration ratio (or other

particulars, such as platelet counts, pesticide residues, etc.). Then

the results would need to be tabulated showing comparative rates.

 

Obviously, were I too take on this project, it would be a conflict of

interest. But I strongly encourage someone to take the first step. If

no one is willing to take this step, then it suggests that we, as a

group, are really not interested in some of the issues we say we are.

 

If someone were interested in doing this, I would suggest starting

with a single parameter. That way the job is relatively simple and

straight forward. Then, with that one parameter under the belt, one

could do another parameter and so on, until a fuller set of

comparative statistics were accumulated. Personally, I find it easiest

to take a number of small steps in sequence then getting overwhelmed

by a huge project.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

far as I've read, no one has said they are interested in following up on James and my suggestions to do a comparative study of various extracts' concentration ratios (or other particulars).

>>What would you test?

Alon