Guest guest Posted January 1, 1970 Report Share Posted January 1, 1970 Abortion followed by 5 months of the pill is quite a lot of shock for the system, and can easily adversely effect fertility. Your patient says 'she didn't like the pill'. . . .this may indicate unpleasant side effects. . . what was it she didn't like about it? On Saturday, October 13, 2001, at 08:07 AM, acugirlnyc wrote: > In a message dated 10/13/01 10:14:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > fgander writes: > > << Hi acugirl, Jeansu, and all, > > Has this patient been on birth control pills in the past and for how > long? The uterus can become cold from these pharmaceuticals and may > need to be warmed up to help conception. Some version of wen jing tang + > si wu tang maybe would help her. > > Frances >> > > Frances--She has never been on the pill except for 5 months from May > 2000 to > Sept 2000. SHe didnt like it so went off. She told me yesterday when I > saw > her that she had an abortion in Jan 2000 and went on the pill so as to > not > get pregnant again at that time. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 Hi everyone- Would love some input from the " experts " out there on a patient of mine. 34 year old woman trying to conceive for 6 months without success who would like to help her body conceive. Her husband's sperm motility and count is normal. Menstrual cycle: 32-35 days, although last month was 38 days due to stress. fairly consistent 13 day Luteal phase. No egg white cervical mucus present at ovulation. Patient has intercourse at the right times of the month. Patient has PMS in the form of irritability, slightly swollen breasts, no cramps or breast pain. Menses: 4 days of bleeding, 1 day light 2 days heavier (no clots, maroon red blood) 1 day light. very few cramps, and mood lifts once bleeding begins. No headaches related to menses. Pulse is wiry before period but otherwise deficient overall with a rate of 63 bpm. Mingmen pulse is deep, right pulse stronger than left. Tongue is pale red, slightly puffy with thin wet coat, dried out in middle jiao area. Patient tends to run warm, although for the last 2-3 months has felt colder than usual. She " doesn't drink enough " because she says she is " lazy " about drinking water. Hates cold water, likes warm water. Drinks 1/2 cup of coffee a day, 1 glass of wine a day, no soda. No unusual sweating, no ear or eye problems. Patient suffers from mild to moderate depression and anxiety. She is a lacto ovo vegetarian, and eats 2-3 meals a day, greens, beans, tofu, and spicy food. Small amount of dairy. She exercises 4 x a week (running or tai chi). She has soft bowel movements 1x day mixed with occasional constipation, but attributes that to iron supplements. She has been taking Evening Primrose Oil from Day 1 to ovulation for 2 months. She sleeps 10-11 hours a night and feels sluggish on awakening. States she gets tired easily and doesnt have alot of energy. Patient has been pregnant once before at age of 24. I would like to prescribe her herbs and have some ideas but would like to hear from experienced practitioners out there. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 Your patient sounds slightly yang deficient. Have you verified her ovulation with BBT charts or other means? I am treating a very similar woman only she is 39 and has conceived only once since trying for 3 years..and then she miscarried. She is about to try IVF, but she is still yang deficient, so I am working with her diet and formulas to warm yang and promote fertility. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2001 Report Share Posted October 12, 2001 Hi, You did a good job.I will provide you more information for your patient later. Basically,She is healthy, the problem she gots is blood not enough and spleen Qi not enough. I will provide more later. And my idea is opinion only. Jean ===== -- < ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 In a message dated 10/12/01 10:05:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, juliej8 writes: << Your patient sounds slightly yang deficient. Have you verified her ovulation with BBT charts or other means? I am treating a very similar woman only she is 39 and has conceived only once since trying for 3 years..and then she miscarried. She is about to try IVF, but she is still yang deficient, so I am working with her diet and formulas to warm yang and promote fertility. Julie >> Yes we have confirmed ovulation with a 12-13 day luteal phase via BBT and OPKs. Has your patient improved? Hillary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 In a message dated 10/12/01 10:36:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jeansu009 writes: << You did a good job.I will provide you more information for your patient later. Basically,She is healthy, the problem she gots is blood not enough and spleen Qi not enough. I will provide more later. And my idea is opinion only. Jean >> Thank you for your opinion, I look forward to receiving it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 THanks you Jean---I will read carefully and let you know what I think. Regarding Evening Primrose Oil (EPO). THis is a popular Western Remedy to be taken from menses to Ovulation and it increases the ovulatory cervical mucus that is hospitable to sperm, known as Egg white cervical mucus because of its consistency. Hillary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 In a message dated 10/13/01 10:14:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, fgander writes: << Hi acugirl, Jeansu, and all, Has this patient been on birth control pills in the past and for how long? The uterus can become cold from these pharmaceuticals and may need to be warmed up to help conception. Some version of wen jing tang + si wu tang maybe would help her. Frances >> Frances--She has never been on the pill except for 5 months from May 2000 to Sept 2000. SHe didnt like it so went off. She told me yesterday when I saw her that she had an abortion in Jan 2000 and went on the pill so as to not get pregnant again at that time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 This is the formula suggested by Elaine Stern: (no dosages given) sheng di he shou wu gou qi zi ligustrum han lian cao rou cong rong tu su zi yin yang huo xu duan shan yao dang gui gelatin (not for my patient, who is veg) zao jiao ci. This is her " general " fertility formula. I was thinking of following jean's suggestion and perhaps adding some more qi tonics, and nu zhen zi for yin and modifying it in other ways. Hillary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 Hi, These are my advice, > Pulse is wiry before period but otherwise deficient overall with a rate of 63 bpm. Mingmen pulse is deep, right pulse stronger than left. Tongue is pale red, slightly puffy with thin wet coat, dried out in middle jiao area. < Pulse deep means cold inside. Right pulse is stronger then left means Qi is more then blood. So, The patient is nutrition insufficiency in her blood and (maybe) anemia.Dampness in spleen and stomach ¡VYin is not enough. >Patient tends to run warm, although for the last 2-3 months has felt colder than usual. She " doesn't drink enough " because she says she is " lazy " about drinking water. Hates cold water, likes warm water. Drinks 1/2 cup of coffee a day, 1 glass of wine a day, no soda. No unusual sweating, no ear or eye problems. < While Blood and Qi4 is insufficiency, people will feel lazy and sleepy, and always feel sleep not enough because there has not enough oxygen up to the brain. >Patient suffers from mild to moderate depression and anxiety. She is a lacto ovo vegetarian,¡K.She has been taking Evening Primrose Oil from Day 1 to ovulation for 2 months.< (Could tell us the effect of primrose oil?.) >She sleeps 10-11 hours a night and feels sluggish on awakening. States she gets tired easily and doesnt have alot of energy. < Because of blood nutrition and Qi4 is not enough, according TCN theory, the mother can¡¦t be get pregnancy or easy to get abortion. It needs both sufficiency spleen-Qi4 and Blood nutrition during 40 weeks period. My suggestion is: Ba1-Zhen1-Tang1 or Shi-Quan2-Da4-Bu3-Tang Drink occasionally because she is vegetarian, and Si4-Wu-Tang + Ying-Yang-Huo4 +Xian Mao2 +Tu4-Shi-Zi + She2-Chuang2-Zi+Nu3-Zheb-Zi+ Hu2-Lu-Ba4. For help get pregnant. Egg white=protein=muscle=spleen. The patient also insufficiency of protein. Food suggestion: Milk, soybean milk, and soybean related food and sesame seed (and various seeds food), various nuts, especially walnut. Food for increase blood: long2-yan3-rou4 +Houng-Qi2, US dry plum, red bean soup, raisins ¡K. Jean ===== -- < ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 In a message dated 10/13/01 7:53:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, acugirlnyc writes: << Julie >> Yes we have confirmed ovulation with a 12-13 day luteal phase via BBT and OPKs. Has your patient improved? Hillary >> Hillary, I don't know yet. We have just begun. I will let you know in a few weeks. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 In a message dated 10/13/01 8:16:48 AM, jeansu009 writes: << Egg white=protein=muscle=spleen. >> Is egg white the protein of your choice? How do you feel about soy protein or others? Thanks, Chris Allison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 Hi acugirl, Jeansu, and all, Has this patient been on birth control pills in the past and for how long? The uterus can become cold from these pharmaceuticals and may need to be warmed up to help conception. Some version of wen jing tang + si wu tang maybe would help her. Frances Jeansu wrote: Hi, These are my advice, > Pulse is wiry before period but otherwise deficient overall with a rate of 63 bpm. Mingmen pulse is deep, right pulse stronger than left. Tongue is pale red, slightly puffy with thin wet coat, dried out in middle jiao area. < Pulse deep means cold inside. Right pulse is stronger then left means Qi is more then blood. So, The patient is nutrition insufficiency in her blood and (maybe) anemia.Dampness in spleen and stomach ¡VYin is not enough. >Patient tends to run warm, although for the last 2-3 months has felt colder than usual. She "doesn't drink enough" because she says she is "lazy" about drinking water. Hates cold water, likes warm water. Drinks 1/2 cup of coffee a day, 1 glass of wine a day, no soda. No unusual sweating, no ear or eye problems. < While Blood and Qi4 is insufficiency, people will feel lazy and sleepy, and always feel sleep not enough because there has not enough oxygen up to the brain. >Patient suffers from mild to moderate depression and anxiety. She is a lacto ovo vegetarian,¡K.She has been taking Evening Primrose Oil from Day 1 to ovulation for 2 months.< (Could tell us the effect of primrose oil?.) >She sleeps 10-11 hours a night and feels sluggish on awakening. States she gets tired easily and doesnt have alot of energy. < Because of blood nutrition and Qi4 is not enough, according TCN theory, the mother can¡¦t be get pregnancy or easy to get abortion. It needs both sufficiency spleen-Qi4 and Blood nutrition during 40 weeks period. My suggestion is: Ba1-Zhen1-Tang1 or Shi-Quan2-Da4-Bu3-Tang Drink occasionally because she is vegetarian, and Si4-Wu-Tang + Ying-Yang-Huo4 +Xian Mao2 +Tu4-Shi-Zi + She2-Chuang2-Zi+Nu3-Zheb-Zi+ Hu2-Lu-Ba4. For help get pregnant. Egg white=protein=muscle=spleen. The patient also insufficiency of protein. Food suggestion: Milk, soybean milk, and soybean related food and sesame seed (and various seeds food), various nuts, especially walnut. Food for increase blood: long2-yan3-rou4 +Houng-Qi2, US dry plum, red bean soup, raisins ¡K. Jean ===== -- < ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 , acugirlnyc@a... wrote: > This is the formula suggested by Elaine Stern: (no dosages given) > sheng di > he shou wu > gou qi zi > ligustrum > han lian cao > rou cong rong > tu su zi > yin yang huo > xu duan > shan yao > dang gui > gelatin (not for my patient, who is veg) > zao jiao ci. > > This is her " general " fertility formula. I was thinking of following jean's > suggestion and perhaps adding some more qi tonics, and nu zhen zi for yin and > modifying it in other ways. > > Hillary since she has had a relatively recent abortion, I would consider the possibility of blood stasis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 , acugirlnyc@a... wrote: > Hi everyone- > Would love some input from the " experts " out there on a patient of mine. > I don't see the yang xu so clearly and the general formula you listed is definitely for yang xu. I agree with Jean that it seems to be mainly qi and blood xu. the pt. is typically warm, but now feels colder. does this mean she is not as warm or actually chilled or cold intolerant. Feeling warm usually rules out yang xu unless there is also yin xu or blood stasis or dampheat. Except for the abortion, there do not seem to be strong signs of blood stasis, though the mere etiology of trauma might be enough. with irritability, wiry pulse, periods delayed due to stress and the PMS sx, there might be liver qi constraint, as well. The long cycles make me think blood xu, but the period is not scanty or pale, is it? So the delay may be another sign of constraint. I would be careful about yang tonification if it is not clearly indicated. the pt. being typically warm could be due to yin fire or depressed heat. If this is the case, I might start with a modified bu zhong yi qi tang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 Hi,Hillary. You are welcome. I like your name.It means joyful,good. Well,my thinking process is follow the TCM theory. Bian4-Zheng-lun4-Zhi4.And I think my thinking process is quite correct according to my experience.Ha! Your Patient is Qi4-Xie3-liang3-Xu. Those herbal formula is given by a very famous aging TCM doctor in Taiwan.Those medicine is cheap but very useful for get pregency. Jean ===== -- < ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2001 Report Share Posted October 13, 2001 Hi,Frances , Your suggestion is fit for the case who use oral contreceptives for more then six years. Thank you very much. And,By the way,Ms,Hillary, You may need to tonic your patient's stomach-yin,too. a few herb is enough.And,Thank you very much for telling me the herb's function of western. Jean ===== -- < ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2001 Report Share Posted October 14, 2001 Hi,Chris, Because soybean milk and tofu 's portein is not enough for the patient to supprot the pregency(it is veget-protein and the patient is a vegetarian),so I suggest the patient eat more seeds and nuts to gain more nutrution and also,drink more milk. If I didn't misunderstand the word,the egg white is patient's egg white,not food. Jean ===== -- < ºô ¸ô ¥Í ¬¡¡EºÉ ¦b ©_¼¯ > http://www.kimo.com.tw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2001 Report Share Posted October 14, 2001 Regarding how the patient felt about the pill, Zev: she said she had breakthrough bleeding from ovulation (around Day 20 ) til the end of the cycle. So for 6 mos of taking the pill, she had 10 days of bleeding or so a month. THe bleeding wasn't extremely heavy but enough to use a pad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2001 Report Share Posted October 14, 2001 thank you todd for your suggestion. She has no menstrual cramps, and no stasis signs in her tongue or pulse, so I wasn't thinking to go there initially. In addition, there were no complications, so to speak, from the abortion--no bleeding afterwards etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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