Raw herb Alternatives-What is the Deal?

December 21, 2000

I have been pondering the application of herbal medicinals. I have been

raised at PCOM and I am very much a beginner in the field (still a student).

A topic that has been left out in our classes is what to do if compliance

or time eliminates the possibility of raw herbal formula. I would

appreciate feedback from anyone with actual experience using tinctures,

extracts, pills, granules and other prepared medicinals. Which companies

are the best etc...I have some personal experience with tinctures and had

very good results one time with (Nasal Peurria). Plum Flower apppears to be

the pills of choice from most practitioners. I haven't personally felt much

if any change using pills. I realize that this is a controversial topic,

most if not all of the TCM practitioners at our school only use raw herbs;

and formulas like Huo Xiang Zheng Qi San have been used in tincture form

from Chinese practitioners. I have observed many american trained

practioners use tinctures all of the time and even taking tincture/extracts

and combining to making a formula. Claiming to get very good results. I

would just like some clarity on the topic and I am sensitive to the fact

that everyone is different-Alternatives our better than no herbal treatment?

or is it? Any feedback would be helpful.

Thank-you in advance

Fred

_______________

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December 21, 2000

on 12/21/00 2:44 PM, Alfred Russo at russoshen wrote:

> I have been pondering the application of herbal medicinals. I have been

> raised at PCOM and I am very much a beginner in the field (still a student).

> A topic that has been left out in our classes is what to do if compliance

> or time eliminates the possibility of raw herbal formula. I would

> appreciate feedback from anyone with actual experience using tinctures,

> extracts, pills, granules and other prepared medicinals. Which companies

> are the best etc...I have some personal experience with tinctures and had

> very good results one time with (Nasal Peurria). Plum Flower apppears to be

> the pills of choice from most practitioners. I haven't personally felt much

> if any change using pills. I realize that this is a controversial topic,

> most if not all of the TCM practitioners at our school only use raw herbs;

> and formulas like Huo Xiang Zheng Qi San have been used in tincture form

> from Chinese practitioners. I have observed many american trained

> practioners use tinctures all of the time and even taking tincture/extracts

> and combining to making a formula. Claiming to get very good results. I

> would just like some clarity on the topic and I am sensitive to the fact

> that everyone is different-Alternatives our better than no herbal treatment?

> or is it? Any feedback would be helpful.

> Thank-you in advance

> Fred

Fred,

There is, first of all, a difference between extracts and tinctures.

Extracts are herbs prepared in 50/50 water alcohol, cooked at low

temperatures in closed glass vessels. The potency is very high, and I use

them extensively, combining formulas or adding single ingredients as needed.

Sometimes, I use the powders or extracts from KPC as well, the potency is

good there. Dosage is very important. The Plum Flower products are, in my

opinion, good quality, but you need a good dosage range. I think Todd has

pointed this out in a previous post. I also use raw prescriptions for those

patients I trust to prepare them properly and comply with taking them

regularly. . . .not as high a percentage as I'd like. The extracts have

excellent compliance, and the potency is excellant. I recommend of a

typical Kan extract one dropper full three times a day, more in acute

patterns.

I think that most practitioners will find what they feel comfortable with

clinically in terms of delivery system, however, the dosage is quite

important, along with, of course, proper pattern diagnosis. It is best to

have access to all delivery systems. . . .raw, powder, extract, pill. I

don't use tinctures myself, I find the ones I've seen too weak, and not well

made.

December 21, 2000

> Z'ev,

What is your opinion on the digestability of raw herbs? I know another controversial topic, but I have been on raw herbal formulas for over a year. We had some results the first few months, but then we hit a wall. The pattern in TCM was a diagnosis of Spleen Qi Xu with dampness and Stomach Zhi. I got frustrated with no shift in results so I talked with another px. We had immediate results that were astonishing, but unfortunately I believe the astringent properties of the formula caused a very annoying skin reaction that lasted four months. I had no prior history of skin problems.

My purpose is to better understand all possibly ways I can help the patients who come to see me. To help myself through Chinese Herbal Medicine so that I can better understand how to use it. I have this feeling that when I can figure out how to heal myself I can help and be a part of the healing process for others.

Thank you Fred Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

December 22, 2000

Alfred,

All the evidence I've seen in the (relatively limited) literature suggests that aside from raw herbs, granules are the most efficient way to get a full dose of Chinese herbs. I have definitely been able to corraborate the dose makes all the difference. Many times I have increased a dose to more closely resemble the TCM texts suggestions only to have results suddenly appear. I tend to work with doses which will often float around 100grms/day (in granules that would look like 2tsp three times/day.

As to practitioners that will tell you that Chinese herbal tinctures are effective: well evidence suggests that this can't biochemically be the case. The thing is that there are some patients that will get well regardless of what modality is used and everybody like solutions that taste pleasant and are intellectually easy to apply (thus the unfortunate popularity of muscle testing and NAET), but I want to find the approach that will benefit most of the patients most of the time.

Your results with your own TCM pracitoners with your health issues make me wonder if the prescription is completely correct. It sounds (long distance) that your second practitioner is on to something with you but perhaps needs to rethink some vital part of the prescription. I can hypothesize on what the error might be, but there is no way of knowing without all of the case info. Perhaps take the existing formula and seek out another practitioner? Definitely keep the formulas so that later in you education you can reevalaute the composition in light of your new found knowledge.

Best Regards,

Mark Reese

December 22, 2000

on 12/21/00 10:30 PM, Alfred Russo at russoshen wrote:

>

Z'ev,

What is your opinion on the digestability of raw herbs? I know another controversial topic, but I have been on raw herbal formulas for over a year. We had some results the first few months, but then we hit a wall. The pattern in TCM was a diagnosis of Spleen Qi Xu with dampness and Stomach Zhi. I got frustrated with no shift in results so I talked with another px. We had immediate results that were astonishing, but unfortunately I believe the astringent properties of the formula caused a very annoying skin reaction that lasted four months. I had no prior history of skin problems.

My purpose is to better understand all possibly ways I can help the patients who come to see me. To help myself through Chinese Herbal Medicine so that I can better understand how to use it. I have this feeling that when I can figure out how to heal myself I can help and be a part of the healing process for others.

Thank you

Fred

Fred,

I don't have access to historical Chinese sources that would mention some of the reactions of patients who take raw formulas for such an extended period. . . .it would be interesting to compare to modern experiences of Western patients. I have a few patients who have taken raw herbs for a year, without side effects, but they have had 'rest periods' in between. Most of my patients who get raw herbs only take them for one to two weeks, then I switch to prepared medicines.

Another thing. . . .and this may be controversial. . . . .I find that many practitioners over-prescribe, that is to say give prescriptions that, in my opinion, are too large, too strong, and not really matched to the pattern diagnosis. There is a tendency to 'shotgun' the ingredients, leading to imbalanced prescriptions that could, eventually, lead to toxicity. The rules of combining medicinals are quite specific, and need to be combined more carefully than is the norm these days.

Many patients seem to have weak digestive systems, and cannot tolerate hard-to-digest medicinals for extended periods. These patients do better with prepared medicines that are pre-cooked. Many people don't seem to cook the herbs properly. I feel that, like in the Shang Han Lun, most prescriptions need to have ingredients that protect the spleen and stomach.

Finally, raw herbs may have dust, mold or impurities, that may not be neutralized in the boiling process. I say may, because while these have been evident in the raw herbs on inspection, no study has been done on the decocted herbs to see if these are neutralized. For patients with sensitivities to these things, there may be a problem. I'd love to hear what Stephen Morrissey or Andy Ellis has to say about this.

December 22, 2000

At 6:30 AM -0800 12/22/00, Alfred Russo wrote:

>I believe the astringent properties of the formula caused a very

>annoying skin reaction that lasted four months. I had no prior

>history of skin problems.

>My purpose is to better understand all possibly ways I can help the

>patients who come to see me.

---

It should be possible to isolate the agent that caused this, assuming

it was not an effect of the overall prescription. Have you tried to

develop a protocol to do this?

As to your other questions, I agree that granules are the best

compromise between efficacy and compliance. For patients who I think

will be taking herbs for more than one week I generally prescribe

granules. For short courses of treatment, ie maintenance, seasonal,

or common cold, I recommend raw herbs. A well prescribed raw herb

formula should not cause digestion problems. I used to make

individually prescribed tinctures for my patients, but it called for

a great deal of work on my part. The process took about 24 hours. The

efficacy was good. Most commercial tinctures, even the good brands,

are of much lower potency than the one's I made, and I wouldn't

bother with them, except perhaps for the occasional person who is

sensitive to meds in general, and in which case low potency is a

benefit.

One further point. I no longer fill prescriptions myself, but send

all my herb patients to local Chinese herb stores. In Berkeley we are

fortunate to have several options. Doing this resolves several

issues. No stock to maintain, no time making up prescriptions, no

financial bias...

Rory

December 22, 2000

Alfred Russo wrote:

> The pattern in TCM was a diagnosis of Spleen Qi Xu with

> dampness and Stomach Zhi.

Stomach Shi? Excess?

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

December 22, 2000

>Al Stone

> > >Re: Raw herb Alternatives-What is the Deal? >Fri, 22 Dec 2000 10:26:22 -0800 > > > >Alfred Russo wrote: > > The pattern in TCM was a diagnosis of Spleen Qi Xu with > > dampness and Stomach Zhi. > >Stomach Shi? Excess? > > >-- >Al Stone L.Ac. > >http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > >Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. ><< alstone.vcf >> Al Stone L.Ac.

I use Zhi as the pinyin word for stagnation. Zhi can be used for qi, damp, and even blood.

I have observed some people use Yu for stagnation which is only gramatically correct when used with Blood (xue). In fact you could write Yu alone and it is assumed to be blood stagnation. I am assuming the stagnation is coming from a combination of excess in the stomach from either underlying deficiency or overeating. Again I am only a beginner and student at this time and for my entire life. Still putting the big picture together I find learning chinese on the side has helped my picture.

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December 23, 2000

Dear all,

In my experience, I do not use tinctures, I found out in my own

method is breaking out the cell of grind dry herbs by absorb the liquid of

the natural herb in to the pad before I gave my patients, the quality

improve twice better than any kind of process as pill, powder etc. with the

same amount of herb.