ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

April 22, 2010

I'm not saying I know it all. I'm saying, what more curriculum is there?

Research methods? That's great, but it's library science, not TCM.

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:15 AM

RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>

> Do you really think you know it all? I certainly don't know it all.

>

> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine

> joe.messey

> Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:19:49 -0700

> Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>

> Mercurius:

>

>> What more is there to teach us, specifically?

>

> Joe Sez:

> That's hilarious!! [?]

>

April 22, 2010

I think the logical move would be to make the current Masters degree into

the Phd. Let people get a Masters if they want to just do acupuncture and

learn TCM theory. Expand to Phd with herbology, Tui Na and QiGong.

Most masters degrees are two years. Phds are two years beyond that. My

school generally takes people 4 years, and it's based on trimesters. So

that's basically 6 years condensed down to 4.

-

" mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:22 AM

RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>

> My guess is that it would include: classical Chinese medical texts

> (covered superficially in master's degree) in both acupuncture, moxa and

> herbs , better usage of treatment modalities, specialties, hopefully

> development of better needling technique, western medical understanding,

> etc.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

>> Chinese Traditional Medicine

>> don83407

>> Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:15:21 -0500

>> RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>>

>> Do you really think you know it all? I certainly don't know it all.

>>

>> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>>

>> Chinese Medicine

>> joe.messey

>> Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:19:49 -0700

>> Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>>

>> Mercurius:

>>

>> > What more is there to teach us, specifically?

>>

>> Joe Sez:

>> That's hilarious!! [?]

>>

April 22, 2010

MT,

If that is what you think, then maybe you should read the DAOM curriculum as

that is not what the school's offer.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

magisterium_magnum

Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:35:17 -0700

Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

I'm not saying I know it all. I'm saying, what more curriculum is there?

Research methods? That's great, but it's library science, not TCM.

-

" Donald Snow " <don83407

Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:15 AM

RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>

> Do you really think you know it all? I certainly don't know it all.

>

> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac.

>

> Chinese Medicine

> joe.messey

> Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:19:49 -0700

> Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>

> Mercurius:

>

>> What more is there to teach us, specifically?

>

> Joe Sez:

> That's hilarious!! [?]

>

April 22, 2010

One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at

AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their internship

and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated it could be about

$30k. That would accomplish several things for the graduate, gain business

skills, have start up money for practice and money to live on while waiting for

license delivery. Practice appears to be one of the main reasons for failure

and two classes is usually not enough.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:16:34 -0400

Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

Zev

It's never too late to correct the current state of affairs.

You Ken and a number of others who know what's needed can still influence

a badly needed correction from this funky-night-trade-school-Masters to a

much better entry level degree that should not cost even the $50,000 plus

that it does right now.

The current program can be greatly reduced and appropriate courses added.

Richard

In a message dated 4/21/2010 4:09:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

zrosenbe writes:

I support the FPD, but not necessarily the present or proposed content of

programs. I think there is a way to keep down costs to students, and

produce a core cirriculum that is weighted towards in-depth Chinese medicine,

and

there is much room for improvement with proposed models.

Z'ev

April 24, 2010

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at

AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their internship

and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated it could be about

$30k. That would accomplish several things for the graduate, gain business

skills, have start up money for practice and money to live on while waiting for

license delivery. Practice appears to be one of the main reasons for failure

and two classes is usually not enough.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

keith's thought :

Thanks MB, but the numbers proposed in Kevin's AT article may seem phenomenal

and may look good on paper, but they don't pan out. And the premise of for

profit schools giving money back to the students? nice thought, won't happen.

(here's the article link for those interested:

http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=27688)

April 26, 2010

We actually have to produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding

that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. Not

so at my school. Those treatments are FREE!

It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the

school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after all,

paying.)

-

" " <

Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM

Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>

> Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

> <naturaldoc1 wrote:

>>

>> One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at

>> AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their

>> internship and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated

>> it could be about $30k. That would accomplish several things for the

>> graduate, gain business skills, have start up money for practice and

>> money to live on while waiting for license delivery. Practice appears to

>> be one of the main reasons for failure and two classes is usually not

>> enough.

>>

>> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> keith's thought :

>

> Thanks MB, but the numbers proposed in Kevin's AT article may seem

> phenomenal and may look good on paper, but they don't pan out. And the

> premise of for profit schools giving money back to the students? nice

> thought, won't happen.

>

> (here's the article link for those interested:

> http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=27688)

>

> ---

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine

> and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

April 26, 2010

MT,

I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying patients. I

would appreciate if you could post these states or links to their laws, so that

I can learn more about this issue. This would be a problem that we need to

overcome.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

magisterium_magnum

Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700

Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

We actually have to produce our own patients. LOL. It is my

understanding

that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. Not

so at my school. Those treatments are FREE!

It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the

school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after all,

paying.)

-

" " <

Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM

Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>

> Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

> <naturaldoc1 wrote:

>>

>> One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at

>> AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their

>> internship and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated

>> it could be about $30k. That would accomplish several things for the

>> graduate, gain business skills, have start up money for practice and

>> money to live on while waiting for license delivery. Practice appears to

>> be one of the main reasons for failure and two classes is usually not

>> enough.

>>

>> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> keith's thought :

>

> Thanks MB, but the numbers proposed in Kevin's AT article may seem

> phenomenal and may look good on paper, but they don't pan out. And the

> premise of for profit schools giving money back to the students? nice

> thought, won't happen.

>

> (here's the article link for those interested:

> http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=27688)

>

> ---

>

> Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine

> and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

April 26, 2010

Keith,

Hope you read the entire article. If you did then you would notice the shift in

thinking that a student is responsible for bringing in their own patients, much

like real-life. I see this as vitally important for future success. Too many

students sit in clinic and wait for patients to see them.

If we are training them in all aspects of practice, then where is the argument

against this? I read that too many practitioners are struggling but few of them

actually have done much to change things in their practices (marketing,

advertising, patient education). If any school wants both a marketing leg up on

the other schools or wants to be known as THE school for prepping graduates in

all areas of practice, then they should consider doing this. All it takes is

one and then the games begin. Also should point out that SIOM is now offering a

reduced master's in acupuncture/public health to fullfill lesser educational

requirements. Thinking outside the box is where it is where the leaders are.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:07:08 +0000

Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at

AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their internship

and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated it could be about

$30k. That would accomplish several things for the graduate, gain business

skills, have start up money for practice and money to live on while waiting for

license delivery. Practice appears to be one of the main reasons for failure

and two classes is usually not enough.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

keith's thought :

Thanks MB, but the numbers proposed in Kevin's AT article may seem phenomenal

and may look good on paper, but they don't pan out. And the premise of for

profit schools giving money back to the students? nice thought, won't happen.

(here's the article link for those interested:

http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=27688)

_______________

Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.

http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\

-US:WM_HMP:042010_1

April 26, 2010

At the school I went to the students ALSO were required to bring in

patients.

Although the fee was $20-$30 per treatment.....in the beginning the owners

of the school pocketed the clinic money. That's why I don't take kindly to

not-for-profit organizations. They are more often more money grubbing than

for-profits and a lot less ethics.

The schools don't have a clue any more than the graduates as to how to

bring in patients

so how can they teach such marketing? Which of course should be taught.

The system in Florida wants licensees to fail. The Board of Acupuncture

forbids CEU credits

for business and marketing courses.

It was recently stated that most schools require a 4 yr Bachelors for the

longest Masters ever..... which I would have to see such documented survey

to believe. And what is the definition of MOST? I wonder if the word MOST

carries similar interpretation to the ACAOM interpretation of the word

CONSENSUS.

Richard

In a message dated 4/26/2010 9:53:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

magisterium_magnum writes:

There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the school

has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide us with

patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about here.

Other schools I've been to require students to get treated periodically,

to

ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat.

My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to go out

and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge these

people for our treatments.

April 27, 2010

There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the school

has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide us with

patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about here.

Other schools I've been to require students to get treated periodically, to

ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat.

My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to go out

and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge these

people for our treatments.

-

" mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM

RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>

> MT,

>

> I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying

> patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or links to

> their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would be a

> problem that we need to overcome.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> Chinese Medicine

> magisterium_magnum

> Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700

> Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have to

> produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding

>

> that other schools require students to get treated like once per week.

> Not

>

> so at my school. Those treatments are FREE!

>

> It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the

>

> school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after

> all,

>

> paying.)

>

> -

>

> " " <

>

> <Chinese Medicine >

>

> Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM

>

> Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

April 27, 2010

M

My tcm college clinic was pretty good at marketing

And we weren't required to get treatments at the school

Nor bring any patients to the clinic.

I think that it's good practice though for preparing for your

Own clinic, although for the price of tuition,

You shouldn't be taxed twice.

What about cleaning your own clinic sheets?

K

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 26, 2010, at 10:53 PM, " Mercurius Trismegistus "

<magisterium_magnum

> wrote:

> There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the

> school

> has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide

> us with

> patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about

> here.

> Other schools I've been to require students to get treated

> periodically, to

> ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat.

> My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to

> go out

> and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge

> these

> people for our treatments.

>

> -

> " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1

> <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

> Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM

> RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>

> >

> > MT,

> >

> > I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying

> > patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or

> links to

> > their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would

> be a

> > problem that we need to overcome.

> >

> > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

> >

> > Chinese Medicine

> > magisterium_magnum

> > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700

> > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have

> to

> > produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding

> >

> > that other schools require students to get treated like once per

> week.

> > Not

> >

> > so at my school. Those treatments are FREE!

> >

> > It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law

> that the

> >

> > school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are

> after

> > all,

> >

> > paying.)

> >

> > -

> >

> > " " <

> >

> > <Chinese Medicine >

> >

> > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM

> >

> > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD

>

April 27, 2010

I read the whole thing. It makes multiple assumptions, leading up to a final

conclusion supported by these assumptions (and calculations), that a school

clinic can make 3 million a year and interns can get a check upon graduation for

$38,000. The numbers put forth in the article are dreamy, they add up only on

paper.

I agree somewhat with the point about students learning to market their skills

and attract patients, because after graduation, 90% + of practitioners have to

make it in a private practice situation. More emphasis/coursework needs to be

placed on educating future practitioners about making it as a solo practitioner,

especially before they enter school. *** newsflash *** there are no acupuncture

jobs upon graduation, you are on your own *** Turning students into marketing

experts overnight before clinic observation, easier said than done. Blaming

" lazy " students is one way to look at it. I think there's a bigger issue

nationally.

A nationwide public education campaign has to be priority number one instead of

doing things like chasing down inclusion in a broken down sick care insurance

system with Washington lobbyists and entry level doctorates -- patient numbers,

efficacy, research studies, and satisfaction with AOM Txs would be booming

everywhere and hospital inclusion would materialize in and of its own accord due

to popular demand and not have to paid for in the form of indentured

residencies, so someone has another notch on their belt or for their website.

But this is an ideal scenario, like the one put forth in the $3 million article.

Since the schools make money primarily from tuition (title 4 subsidized), and

the alphabet orgs make money from schools, testing fees, letteraftername fees,

or insurance premiums, where's the incentive nationally for all these groups to

band together for this kind of public awareness campaign to leverage their clout

to increase public usage of AOM ? It's not a priority because it doesn't make

any money or increase clout for any of the schools or orgs. The clinic fees at

a school are gravy, or icing , or gravy icing. extra income. they're not going

to give any back to the students. that's crazy talk.

Patient fees matter mostly to the grassroots on the ground. You and me, JANE

DOE, LAc, JOHN DOE, LAc, Mike Bowser, DC,LAC, Keith Z, LAC. This is how we

survive and sustain our livelihoods, as practitioners.

So I would say this, that if there were leaders really thinking outside the box,

they would band together and create a nationwide marketing campaign that would

create a rising tide of usage to further lift all boats.

-kz

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> Keith,

>

> Hope you read the entire article. If you did then you would notice the shift

in thinking that a student is responsible for bringing in their own patients,

much like real-life. I see this as vitally important for future success. Too

many students sit in clinic and wait for patients to see them.

>

> If we are training them in all aspects of practice, then where is the argument