Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 I'm not saying I know it all. I'm saying, what more curriculum is there? Research methods? That's great, but it's library science, not TCM. - " Donald Snow " <don83407 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:15 AM RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > Do you really think you know it all? I certainly don't know it all. > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > Chinese Medicine > joe.messey > Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:19:49 -0700 > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > Mercurius: > >> What more is there to teach us, specifically? > > Joe Sez: > That's hilarious!! [?] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 I think the logical move would be to make the current Masters degree into the Phd. Let people get a Masters if they want to just do acupuncture and learn TCM theory. Expand to Phd with herbology, Tui Na and QiGong. Most masters degrees are two years. Phds are two years beyond that. My school generally takes people 4 years, and it's based on trimesters. So that's basically 6 years condensed down to 4. - " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:22 AM RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > My guess is that it would include: classical Chinese medical texts > (covered superficially in master's degree) in both acupuncture, moxa and > herbs , better usage of treatment modalities, specialties, hopefully > development of better needling technique, western medical understanding, > etc. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> don83407 >> Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:15:21 -0500 >> RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD >> >> >> Do you really think you know it all? I certainly don't know it all. >> >> >> >> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. >> >> >> >> Chinese Medicine >> joe.messey >> Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:19:49 -0700 >> Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD >> >> >> >> >> >> Mercurius: >> >> > What more is there to teach us, specifically? >> >> Joe Sez: >> That's hilarious!! [?] >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 MT, If that is what you think, then maybe you should read the DAOM curriculum as that is not what the school's offer. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine magisterium_magnum Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:35:17 -0700 Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD I'm not saying I know it all. I'm saying, what more curriculum is there? Research methods? That's great, but it's library science, not TCM. - " Donald Snow " <don83407 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Wednesday, April 21, 2010 7:15 AM RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > Do you really think you know it all? I certainly don't know it all. > > > > Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > Chinese Medicine > joe.messey > Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:19:49 -0700 > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > Mercurius: > >> What more is there to teach us, specifically? > > Joe Sez: > That's hilarious!! [?] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2010 Report Share Posted April 22, 2010 One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their internship and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated it could be about $30k. That would accomplish several things for the graduate, gain business skills, have start up money for practice and money to live on while waiting for license delivery. Practice appears to be one of the main reasons for failure and two classes is usually not enough. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:16:34 -0400 Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD Zev It's never too late to correct the current state of affairs. You Ken and a number of others who know what's needed can still influence a badly needed correction from this funky-night-trade-school-Masters to a much better entry level degree that should not cost even the $50,000 plus that it does right now. The current program can be greatly reduced and appropriate courses added. Richard In a message dated 4/21/2010 4:09:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, zrosenbe writes: I support the FPD, but not necessarily the present or proposed content of programs. I think there is a way to keep down costs to students, and produce a core cirriculum that is weighted towards in-depth Chinese medicine, and there is much room for improvement with proposed models. Z'ev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2010 Report Share Posted April 24, 2010 Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their internship and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated it could be about $30k. That would accomplish several things for the graduate, gain business skills, have start up money for practice and money to live on while waiting for license delivery. Practice appears to be one of the main reasons for failure and two classes is usually not enough. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc keith's thought : Thanks MB, but the numbers proposed in Kevin's AT article may seem phenomenal and may look good on paper, but they don't pan out. And the premise of for profit schools giving money back to the students? nice thought, won't happen. (here's the article link for those interested: http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=27688) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2010 Report Share Posted April 26, 2010 We actually have to produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. Not so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after all, paying.) - " " < <Chinese Medicine > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > <naturaldoc1 wrote: >> >> >> One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at >> AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their >> internship and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated >> it could be about $30k. That would accomplish several things for the >> graduate, gain business skills, have start up money for practice and >> money to live on while waiting for license delivery. Practice appears to >> be one of the main reasons for failure and two classes is usually not >> enough. >> >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > keith's thought : > > Thanks MB, but the numbers proposed in Kevin's AT article may seem > phenomenal and may look good on paper, but they don't pan out. And the > premise of for profit schools giving money back to the students? nice > thought, won't happen. > > (here's the article link for those interested: > http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=27688) > > > > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine > and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2010 Report Share Posted April 26, 2010 MT, I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or links to their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would be a problem that we need to overcome. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine magisterium_magnum Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700 Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD We actually have to produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. Not so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after all, paying.) - " " < <Chinese Medicine > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser > <naturaldoc1 wrote: >> >> >> One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at >> AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their >> internship and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated >> it could be about $30k. That would accomplish several things for the >> graduate, gain business skills, have start up money for practice and >> money to live on while waiting for license delivery. Practice appears to >> be one of the main reasons for failure and two classes is usually not >> enough. >> >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > keith's thought : > > Thanks MB, but the numbers proposed in Kevin's AT article may seem > phenomenal and may look good on paper, but they don't pan out. And the > premise of for profit schools giving money back to the students? nice > thought, won't happen. > > (here's the article link for those interested: > http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=27688) > > > > > --- > > Subscribe to the free online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Help build the world's largest online encyclopedia for Chinese medicine > and acupuncture, click, http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com/wiki/CMTpedia > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2010 Report Share Posted April 26, 2010 Keith, Hope you read the entire article. If you did then you would notice the shift in thinking that a student is responsible for bringing in their own patients, much like real-life. I see this as vitally important for future success. Too many students sit in clinic and wait for patients to see them. If we are training them in all aspects of practice, then where is the argument against this? I read that too many practitioners are struggling but few of them actually have done much to change things in their practices (marketing, advertising, patient education). If any school wants both a marketing leg up on the other schools or wants to be known as THE school for prepping graduates in all areas of practice, then they should consider doing this. All it takes is one and then the games begin. Also should point out that SIOM is now offering a reduced master's in acupuncture/public health to fullfill lesser educational requirements. Thinking outside the box is where it is where the leaders are. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:07:08 +0000 Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their internship and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated it could be about $30k. That would accomplish several things for the graduate, gain business skills, have start up money for practice and money to live on while waiting for license delivery. Practice appears to be one of the main reasons for failure and two classes is usually not enough. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc keith's thought : Thanks MB, but the numbers proposed in Kevin's AT article may seem phenomenal and may look good on paper, but they don't pan out. And the premise of for profit schools giving money back to the students? nice thought, won't happen. (here's the article link for those interested: http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=27688) _______________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2010 Report Share Posted April 26, 2010 At the school I went to the students ALSO were required to bring in patients. Although the fee was $20-$30 per treatment.....in the beginning the owners of the school pocketed the clinic money. That's why I don't take kindly to not-for-profit organizations. They are more often more money grubbing than for-profits and a lot less ethics. The schools don't have a clue any more than the graduates as to how to bring in patients so how can they teach such marketing? Which of course should be taught. The system in Florida wants licensees to fail. The Board of Acupuncture forbids CEU credits for business and marketing courses. It was recently stated that most schools require a 4 yr Bachelors for the longest Masters ever..... which I would have to see such documented survey to believe. And what is the definition of MOST? I wonder if the word MOST carries similar interpretation to the ACAOM interpretation of the word CONSENSUS. Richard In a message dated 4/26/2010 9:53:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, magisterium_magnum writes: There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the school has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide us with patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about here. Other schools I've been to require students to get treated periodically, to ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat. My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to go out and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge these people for our treatments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the school has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide us with patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about here. Other schools I've been to require students to get treated periodically, to ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat. My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to go out and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge these people for our treatments. - " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > MT, > > I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying > patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or links to > their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would be a > problem that we need to overcome. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Medicine > magisterium_magnum > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700 > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have to > produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding > > that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. > Not > > so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! > > It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the > > school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after > all, > > paying.) > > > > - > > " " < > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 M My tcm college clinic was pretty good at marketing And we weren't required to get treatments at the school Nor bring any patients to the clinic. I think that it's good practice though for preparing for your Own clinic, although for the price of tuition, You shouldn't be taxed twice. What about cleaning your own clinic sheets? K Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2010, at 10:53 PM, " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum > wrote: > There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the > school > has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide > us with > patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about > here. > Other schools I've been to require students to get treated > periodically, to > ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat. > My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to > go out > and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge > these > people for our treatments. > > - > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > MT, > > > > I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying > > patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or > links to > > their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would > be a > > problem that we need to overcome. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > magisterium_magnum > > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700 > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have > to > > produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding > > > > that other schools require students to get treated like once per > week. > > Not > > > > so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! > > > > It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law > that the > > > > school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are > after > > all, > > > > paying.) > > > > > > > > - > > > > " " < > > > > <Chinese Medicine > > > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM > > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 I read the whole thing. It makes multiple assumptions, leading up to a final conclusion supported by these assumptions (and calculations), that a school clinic can make 3 million a year and interns can get a check upon graduation for $38,000. The numbers put forth in the article are dreamy, they add up only on paper. I agree somewhat with the point about students learning to market their skills and attract patients, because after graduation, 90% + of practitioners have to make it in a private practice situation. More emphasis/coursework needs to be placed on educating future practitioners about making it as a solo practitioner, especially before they enter school. *** newsflash *** there are no acupuncture jobs upon graduation, you are on your own *** Turning students into marketing experts overnight before clinic observation, easier said than done. Blaming " lazy " students is one way to look at it. I think there's a bigger issue nationally. A nationwide public education campaign has to be priority number one instead of doing things like chasing down inclusion in a broken down sick care insurance system with Washington lobbyists and entry level doctorates -- patient numbers, efficacy, research studies, and satisfaction with AOM Txs would be booming everywhere and hospital inclusion would materialize in and of its own accord due to popular demand and not have to paid for in the form of indentured residencies, so someone has another notch on their belt or for their website. But this is an ideal scenario, like the one put forth in the $3 million article. Since the schools make money primarily from tuition (title 4 subsidized), and the alphabet orgs make money from schools, testing fees, letteraftername fees, or insurance premiums, where's the incentive nationally for all these groups to band together for this kind of public awareness campaign to leverage their clout to increase public usage of AOM ? It's not a priority because it doesn't make any money or increase clout for any of the schools or orgs. The clinic fees at a school are gravy, or icing , or gravy icing. extra income. they're not going to give any back to the students. that's crazy talk. Patient fees matter mostly to the grassroots on the ground. You and me, JANE DOE, LAc, JOHN DOE, LAc, Mike Bowser, DC,LAC, Keith Z, LAC. This is how we survive and sustain our livelihoods, as practitioners. So I would say this, that if there were leaders really thinking outside the box, they would band together and create a nationwide marketing campaign that would create a rising tide of usage to further lift all boats. -kz Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > Keith, > > Hope you read the entire article. If you did then you would notice the shift in thinking that a student is responsible for bringing in their own patients, much like real-life. I see this as vitally important for future success. Too many students sit in clinic and wait for patients to see them. > > If we are training them in all aspects of practice, then where is the argument against this? I read that too many practitioners are struggling but few of them actually have done much to change things in their practices (marketing, advertising, patient education). If any school wants both a marketing leg up on the other schools or wants to be known as THE school for prepping graduates in all areas of practice, then they should consider doing this. All it takes is one and then the games begin. Also should point out that SIOM is now offering a reduced master's in acupuncture/public health to fullfill lesser educational requirements. Thinking outside the box is where it is where the leaders are. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > > Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:07:08 +0000 > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their internship and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated it could be about $30k. That would accomplish several things for the graduate, gain business skills, have start up money for practice and money to live on while waiting for license delivery. Practice appears to be one of the main reasons for failure and two classes is usually not enough. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > keith's thought : > > > > Thanks MB, but the numbers proposed in Kevin's AT article may seem phenomenal and may look good on paper, but they don't pan out. And the premise of for profit schools giving money back to the students? nice thought, won't happen. > > > > (here's the article link for those interested: http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=27688) > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 Exactly the point .......that the " system " doesn't want graduate licensees to succeed. They don't want it taught in school nor in Continuing education. Its OBVIOUS. Richard In a message dated 4/27/2010 12:08:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, don83407 writes: once asked the powers that be at PCOM San Diego and I was told that it was not legal to teach more practice management at the schools because the accrediting authorities would not permit it. The school was designated to teach AOM, not business. I have no reason to disbelieve what they told me as I was faculty at the time. Sincerely, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 I can understand this mentality of school providing patients but, in life, your school will not provide upon graduation. This was a big part of Dr. McNamee's article on how both schools and interns can become more successful. If we look at school as a place that allows us to try new things within the safety net of the school, then there is no down side to this experiment. No school has done this yet and so we lack any data if and how it would work out. As most graduates appear to be struggling and many never make it, I would like to see this trend change and think such an endeavor would greatly help students become more successful earlier. I have not met anyone that would turn down a check upon graduation for $30k. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine CC: Chinese Medicine johnkokko Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:14:08 -0500 Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD M My tcm college clinic was pretty good at marketing And we weren't required to get treatments at the school Nor bring any patients to the clinic. I think that it's good practice though for preparing for your Own clinic, although for the price of tuition, You shouldn't be taxed twice. What about cleaning your own clinic sheets? K Sent from my iPhone On Apr 26, 2010, at 10:53 PM, " Mercurius Trismegistus " <magisterium_magnum > wrote: > There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the > school > has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide > us with > patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about > here. > Other schools I've been to require students to get treated > periodically, to > ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat. > My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to > go out > and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge > these > people for our treatments. > > - > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > > Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > MT, > > > > I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying > > patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or > links to > > their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would > be a > > problem that we need to overcome. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > magisterium_magnum > > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700 > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have > to > > produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding > > > > that other schools require students to get treated like once per > week. > > Not > > > > so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! > > > > It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law > that the > > > > school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are > after > > all, > > > > paying.) > > > > > > > > - > > > > " " < > > > > <Chinese Medicine > > > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM > > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 Would it be acceptable if the school worked with the students and showed them how to conduct marketing? This was the premise of the acupuncture plan I was mentioning. It would also change the school atmosphere from educated elite to those that can actually pull it off. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine magisterium_magnum Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:53:28 -0700 Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the school has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide us with patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about here. Other schools I've been to require students to get treated periodically, to ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat. My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to go out and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge these people for our treatments. - " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > MT, > > I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying > patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or links to > their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would be a > problem that we need to overcome. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Medicine > magisterium_magnum > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700 > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have to > produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding > > that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. > Not > > so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! > > It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the > > school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after > all, > > paying.) > > > > - > > " " < > > <Chinese Medicine > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD _______________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 I once asked the powers that be at PCOM San Diego and I was told that it was not legal to teach more practice management at the schools because the accrediting authorities would not permit it. The school was designated to teach AOM, not business. I have no reason to disbelieve what they told me as I was faculty at the time. Sincerely, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > Chinese Traditional Medicine > naturaldoc1 > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:23:56 +0000 > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > Would it be acceptable if the school worked with the students and showed them how to conduct marketing? This was the premise of the acupuncture plan I was mentioning. It would also change the school atmosphere from educated elite to those that can actually pull it off. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > magisterium_magnum > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:53:28 -0700 > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the school > > has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide us with > > patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about here. > > Other schools I've been to require students to get treated periodically, to > > ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat. > > My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to go out > > and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge these > > people for our treatments. > > > > - > > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM > > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > MT, > > > > > > I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying > > > patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or links to > > > their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would be a > > > problem that we need to overcome. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > magisterium_magnum > > > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700 > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have to > > > produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding > > > > > > that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. > > > Not > > > > > > so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! > > > > > > It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the > > > > > > school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after > > > all, > > > > > > paying.) > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > " " < > > > > > > <Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM > > > > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 So what about a learning lab situation where the students help to plan and tracks what marketing the clinic does? If students are never exposed to this concept, then they may be missing out on their own success or need to hire a coach after graduation. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Traditional Medicine don83407 Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:08:10 -0500 RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD I once asked the powers that be at PCOM San Diego and I was told that it was not legal to teach more practice management at the schools because the accrediting authorities would not permit it. The school was designated to teach AOM, not business. I have no reason to disbelieve what they told me as I was faculty at the time. Sincerely, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > Chinese Traditional Medicine > naturaldoc1 > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:23:56 +0000 > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > Would it be acceptable if the school worked with the students and showed them how to conduct marketing? This was the premise of the acupuncture plan I was mentioning. It would also change the school atmosphere from educated elite to those that can actually pull it off. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > magisterium_magnum > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:53:28 -0700 > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the school > > has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide us with > > patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about here. > > Other schools I've been to require students to get treated periodically, to > > ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat. > > My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to go out > > and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge these > > people for our treatments. > > > > - > > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM > > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > MT, > > > > > > I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying > > > patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or links to > > > their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would be a > > > problem that we need to overcome. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > magisterium_magnum > > > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700 > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have to > > > produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding > > > > > > that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. > > > Not > > > > > > so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! > > > > > > It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the > > > > > > school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after > > > all, > > > > > > paying.) > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > " " < > > > > > > <Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM > > > > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 What do you mean by not legal? I get the accreditation part. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Traditional Medicine don83407 Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:08:10 -0500 RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD I once asked the powers that be at PCOM San Diego and I was told that it was not legal to teach more practice management at the schools because the accrediting authorities would not permit it. The school was designated to teach AOM, not business. I have no reason to disbelieve what they told me as I was faculty at the time. Sincerely, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > Chinese Traditional Medicine > naturaldoc1 > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:23:56 +0000 > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > Would it be acceptable if the school worked with the students and showed them how to conduct marketing? This was the premise of the acupuncture plan I was mentioning. It would also change the school atmosphere from educated elite to those that can actually pull it off. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > magisterium_magnum > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:53:28 -0700 > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the school > > has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide us with > > patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about here. > > Other schools I've been to require students to get treated periodically, to > > ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat. > > My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to go out > > and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge these > > people for our treatments. > > > > - > > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM > > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > MT, > > > > > > I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying > > > patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or links to > > > their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would be a > > > problem that we need to overcome. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > magisterium_magnum > > > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700 > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have to > > > produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding > > > > > > that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. > > > Not > > > > > > so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! > > > > > > It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the > > > > > > school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after > > > all, > > > > > > paying.) > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > " " < > > > > > > <Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM > > > > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 It is our responsibility to seek out the knowledge if the schools don't/can't teach it. I personally spent $8,000 and took a number of Dr. David Singer's courses in practice management and it helped immensely. I don't use all of it, but what I need. These days I have developed my own marketing strategy, but the best strategy is excellent treatment results and referrals. In our clinics we do not charge patients with active symptoms who do not get 50% relief or more on the day of their first visit. We always get paid and the patients are happy. Just my 2 cents, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine acudoc11 Tue, 27 Apr 2010 12:10:28 -0400 Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD Exactly the point .......that the " system " doesn't want graduate licensees to succeed. They don't want it taught in school nor in Continuing education. Its OBVIOUS. Richard In a message dated 4/27/2010 12:08:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, don83407 writes: once asked the powers that be at PCOM San Diego and I was told that it was not legal to teach more practice management at the schools because the accrediting authorities would not permit it. The school was designated to teach AOM, not business. I have no reason to disbelieve what they told me as I was faculty at the time. Sincerely, Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 It is my understanding, and many years have passed, that if they taught more business clases they would have to get accreditation as a business school. For some reason they would loose their accreditation for AOM. It might be best to ask Zev since he has been there for a long time and has access to Jack, Stacy, and the powers that be. I am just relaying what I was told and it seems it answered my concerns at the time. Don Snow > Chinese Traditional Medicine > naturaldoc1 > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:39:45 +0000 > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > What do you mean by not legal? I get the accreditation part. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > don83407 > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:08:10 -0500 > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I once asked the powers that be at PCOM San Diego and I was told that it was not legal to teach more practice management at the schools because the accrediting authorities would not permit it. The school was designated to teach AOM, not business. I have no reason to disbelieve what they told me as I was faculty at the time. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > naturaldoc1 > > > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:23:56 +0000 > > > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > Would it be acceptable if the school worked with the students and showed them how to conduct marketing? This was the premise of the acupuncture plan I was mentioning. It would also change the school atmosphere from educated elite to those that can actually pull it off. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > magisterium_magnum > > > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:53:28 -0700 > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the school > > > > > > has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide us with > > > > > > patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about here. > > > > > > Other schools I've been to require students to get treated periodically, to > > > > > > ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat. > > > > > > My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to go out > > > > > > and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge these > > > > > > people for our treatments. > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > > > > > > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > > > > > Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM > > > > > > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MT, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying > > > > > > > patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or links to > > > > > > > their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would be a > > > > > > > problem that we need to overcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > magisterium_magnum > > > > > > > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700 > > > > > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have to > > > > > > > produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. > > > > > > > Not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after > > > > > > > all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > paying.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " " < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 kz, Good points but I think we can still multi-task. We need to do this on many fronts so that we do not lag behind where we need to be. Regardless of the numbers, the issue is that a student can learn to market while in school and even make some bucks was my point. It might also help to turn the lazy students into better business people and help them to stay afloat following graduation. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:12:17 +0000 Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD I read the whole thing. It makes multiple assumptions, leading up to a final conclusion supported by these assumptions (and calculations), that a school clinic can make 3 million a year and interns can get a check upon graduation for $38,000. The numbers put forth in the article are dreamy, they add up only on paper. I agree somewhat with the point about students learning to market their skills and attract patients, because after graduation, 90% + of practitioners have to make it in a private practice situation. More emphasis/coursework needs to be placed on educating future practitioners about making it as a solo practitioner, especially before they enter school. *** newsflash *** there are no acupuncture jobs upon graduation, you are on your own *** Turning students into marketing experts overnight before clinic observation, easier said than done. Blaming " lazy " students is one way to look at it. I think there's a bigger issue nationally. A nationwide public education campaign has to be priority number one instead of doing things like chasing down inclusion in a broken down sick care insurance system with Washington lobbyists and entry level doctorates -- patient numbers, efficacy, research studies, and satisfaction with AOM Txs would be booming everywhere and hospital inclusion would materialize in and of its own accord due to popular demand and not have to paid for in the form of indentured residencies, so someone has another notch on their belt or for their website. But this is an ideal scenario, like the one put forth in the $3 million article. Since the schools make money primarily from tuition (title 4 subsidized), and the alphabet orgs make money from schools, testing fees, letteraftername fees, or insurance premiums, where's the incentive nationally for all these groups to band together for this kind of public awareness campaign to leverage their clout to increase public usage of AOM ? It's not a priority because it doesn't make any money or increase clout for any of the schools or orgs. The clinic fees at a school are gravy, or icing , or gravy icing. extra income. they're not going to give any back to the students. that's crazy talk. Patient fees matter mostly to the grassroots on the ground. You and me, JANE DOE, LAc, JOHN DOE, LAc, Mike Bowser, DC,LAC, Keith Z, LAC. This is how we survive and sustain our livelihoods, as practitioners. So I would say this, that if there were leaders really thinking outside the box, they would band together and create a nationwide marketing campaign that would create a rising tide of usage to further lift all boats. -kz Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > > > Keith, > > Hope you read the entire article. If you did then you would notice the shift in thinking that a student is responsible for bringing in their own patients, much like real-life. I see this as vitally important for future success. Too many students sit in clinic and wait for patients to see them. > > If we are training them in all aspects of practice, then where is the argument against this? I read that too many practitioners are struggling but few of them actually have done much to change things in their practices (marketing, advertising, patient education). If any school wants both a marketing leg up on the other schools or wants to be known as THE school for prepping graduates in all areas of practice, then they should consider doing this. All it takes is one and then the games begin. Also should point out that SIOM is now offering a reduced master's in acupuncture/public health to fullfill lesser educational requirements. Thinking outside the box is where it is where the leaders are. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > Chinese Medicine > > Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:07:08 +0000 > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser <naturaldoc1@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > One way is by initiating Dr. Kevin McNamee's plan published at AcupunctureToday.com where a student actually does marketing in their internship and upon graduation gets paid a check. I think he estimated it could be about $30k. That would accomplish several things for the graduate, gain business skills, have start up money for practice and money to live on while waiting for license delivery. Practice appears to be one of the main reasons for failure and two classes is usually not enough. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > keith's thought : > > > > Thanks MB, but the numbers proposed in Kevin's AT article may seem phenomenal and may look good on paper, but they don't pan out. And the premise of for profit schools giving money back to the students? nice thought, won't happen. > > > > (here's the article link for those interested: http://acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=27688) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 The people to talk to are those that run the schools. Not us nobodies. Sincerely, Don Snow > Chinese Traditional Medicine > naturaldoc1 > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:36:42 +0000 > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > So what about a learning lab situation where the students help to plan and tracks what marketing the clinic does? If students are never exposed to this concept, then they may be missing out on their own success or need to hire a coach after graduation. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > don83407 > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:08:10 -0500 > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I once asked the powers that be at PCOM San Diego and I was told that it was not legal to teach more practice management at the schools because the accrediting authorities would not permit it. The school was designated to teach AOM, not business. I have no reason to disbelieve what they told me as I was faculty at the time. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > naturaldoc1 > > > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:23:56 +0000 > > > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > Would it be acceptable if the school worked with the students and showed them how to conduct marketing? This was the premise of the acupuncture plan I was mentioning. It would also change the school atmosphere from educated elite to those that can actually pull it off. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > magisterium_magnum > > > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:53:28 -0700 > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the school > > > > > > has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide us with > > > > > > patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about here. > > > > > > Other schools I've been to require students to get treated periodically, to > > > > > > ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat. > > > > > > My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to go out > > > > > > and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge these > > > > > > people for our treatments. > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > > > > > > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > > > > > Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM > > > > > > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MT, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying > > > > > > > patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or links to > > > > > > > their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would be a > > > > > > > problem that we need to overcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > magisterium_magnum > > > > > > > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700 > > > > > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have to > > > > > > > produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. > > > > > > > Not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after > > > > > > > all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > paying.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " " < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 Understood but how hard is it really to call it practice mgmt and put some meat into the courses? During my entire chiro education we had business classes each term that dealt with many issues such as writing a business plan, marketing, scripts, investments, etc. I thought this was weak as well but much more involved then what I saw in TCM school. BTW, from what I have seen, the chiro's have a much better understanding of the importance of finance. I have several TCM graduate friends that no longer practice and some never really did. People, we can and must do better. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Traditional Medicine don83407 Tue, 27 Apr 2010 13:01:16 -0500 RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD It is my understanding, and many years have passed, that if they taught more business clases they would have to get accreditation as a business school. For some reason they would loose their accreditation for AOM. It might be best to ask Zev since he has been there for a long time and has access to Jack, Stacy, and the powers that be. I am just relaying what I was told and it seems it answered my concerns at the time. Don Snow > Chinese Traditional Medicine > naturaldoc1 > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:39:45 +0000 > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > What do you mean by not legal? I get the accreditation part. > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > don83407 > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:08:10 -0500 > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I once asked the powers that be at PCOM San Diego and I was told that it was not legal to teach more practice management at the schools because the accrediting authorities would not permit it. The school was designated to teach AOM, not business. I have no reason to disbelieve what they told me as I was faculty at the time. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > > > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > naturaldoc1 > > > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:23:56 +0000 > > > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > Would it be acceptable if the school worked with the students and showed them how to conduct marketing? This was the premise of the acupuncture plan I was mentioning. It would also change the school atmosphere from educated elite to those that can actually pull it off. > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > magisterium_magnum > > > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:53:28 -0700 > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no such law, to my knowledge. What I am saying is that the school > > > > > > has US doing it's marketing for them. They are supposed to provide us with > > > > > > patients. I know this is how it is in other states, not sure about here. > > > > > > Other schools I've been to require students to get treated periodically, to > > > > > > ensure that there are a sufficient amount of patients to treat. > > > > > > My school doesn't require that, presumably because they want us to go out > > > > > > and scout paying customers, so that we can pay the school to charge these > > > > > > people for our treatments. > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 > > > > > > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > > > > > > > Monday, April 26, 2010 8:12 AM > > > > > > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MT, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have never heard of any law that requires students treat paying > > > > > > > patients. I would appreciate if you could post these states or links to > > > > > > > their laws, so that I can learn more about this issue. This would be a > > > > > > > problem that we need to overcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > magisterium_magnum > > > > > > > Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:34:54 -0700 > > > > > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD> We actually have to > > > > > > > produce our own patients. LOL. It is my understanding > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that other schools require students to get treated like once per week. > > > > > > > Not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so at my school. Those treatments are FREE! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is also my understanding that, in some states, it is the law that the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > school needs to produce the patients for the students. (Who are after > > > > > > > all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > paying.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " " < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Chinese Medicine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friday, April 23, 2010 6:07 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > > > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en\ -US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 Mercurius, you're lucky if you're getting good marketing classes in school... but you're still in school, right? so... it might be a bit difficult to know for sure if the material that you're learning in the practice mgmt classes at your school are very practical for a TCM practice. Maybe you have special circumstances and experience... helping out a friend's acupuncture clinic, apprenticing etc. so you can really gauge that the material you're learning is sufficient to get a practice off the ground. In school, everyone thought that was enough, but when you look at the surveys of alumnis, it's always the same... we need better and more business classes while in school. It's true that most people don't practice after they get their license, because of a lack of business acumen, not because a lack of TCM knowledge. K On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 1:14 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < magisterium_magnum wrote: > > > We have some really good practice management material. There is a practice > management class, and it's really good, but the marketing is addressed in > other classes as well. I think things may have improved in this regard > since you were in school. Still, I think people can take business courses > if they want. There are universities everywhere. > > > - > " mike Bowser " <naturaldoc1 <naturaldoc1%40hotmail.com>> > To: <Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yah\ oogroups.com> > > > Tuesday, April 27, 2010 11:24 AM > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > > > Understood but how hard is it really to call it practice mgmt and put > some > > meat into the courses? During my entire chiro education we had business > > classes each term that dealt with many issues such as writing a business > > plan, marketing, scripts, investments, etc. I thought this was weak as > > well but much more involved then what I saw in TCM school. BTW, from what > > > I have seen, the chiro's have a much better understanding of the > > importance of finance. I have several TCM graduate friends that no longer > > > practice and some never really did. People, we can and must do better. > > > > Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc > > > > > > > > To: Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > don83407 <don83407%40msn.com> > > Tue, 27 Apr 2010 13:01:16 -0500 > > RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 That sounds counterintiutive. You don't have to be accredited to teach something. I believe accreditization is mainly required in order to get student loans for those credits. LOL. Maybe that's why. No one would take the courses. Dunno. - " Donald Snow " <don83407 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Tuesday, April 27, 2010 11:01 AM RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD > > It is my understanding, and many years have passed, that if they taught > more business clases they would have to get accreditation as a business > school. For some reason they would loose their accreditation for AOM. It > might be best to ask Zev since he has been there for a long time and has > access to Jack, Stacy, and the powers that be. I am just relaying what I > was told and it seems it answered my concerns at the time. > > > > Don Snow > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> naturaldoc1 >> Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:39:45 +0000 >> RE: ACAOM and Complaint about FPD >> >> >> What do you mean by not legal? I get the accreditation part. >> >> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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