What we didn't learn in AOM master's programs (but really need to ...

November 26, 2009

K

Don't disagree........ but then will such a student be awarded the MD or

DO degree or something TOTALLY equivalent and recognized in all arenas

(regional accreditation system and reimbursement as examples)?

Richard

In a message dated 11/26/2009 10:43:26 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

johnkokko writes:

Yehuda,

I agree... if you go to the bathroom for 10 minutes in a class,

you might miss something that could be very useful clinically later...

The way I see it, the body is universal... the universal language is

physiology..ph

Although it's labeled " biomedical " Although it's labeled " biomedical " <WBR>,

possible about physiology, physical exam and orthopedics?

People like Alon Marcus, Mark Seem and Dan Bensky (Doctor of Osteopathy)

are

jewels in our profession. Isn't listening to the pulse of the CSF or the

breath movement of the internal organs an extension of what we do?

K

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 1:34 AM, yehuda frischman <__

() >wrote:

>

> Kokko,

>

> I think that It's a great idea within our group to explore what we should

> have learned (but didn't, at least more than superficially) in order to

> function as informed medical practitioners serving the general public.

This

> feedback should be reported to CCAOM and ACAOM and state boards, for

them to

> consider in their curriculum recommendations and exams.

>

> Truth be told, I don't know about you, but during my undergrad program

> virtually all the areas you mention were taught, but with little more

than a

> once over. Yet, as you imply, they really are quite important, and I feel

> need to be taught more thoroughly.

>

> Also, to your list, I would add orthopedics with a greater emphasis on

> muscle, bone, nerve and vicera.

>

> respectfully,

>

> Yehuda L. Frischman, L.Ac, CST, SER

> www.traditionaljewi www.tr

> www.traditionaljewi www.tr www.

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

November 26, 2009

K

Today Florida is up to license number around 2700 (about 1800 active).

Until approximately 1994 the education was still mostly a two year program.

As I stated in 1986 the profession was upgraded to primary care.

And in 2002 with the excellent safety record key legislators felt that ALL

we needed was to raise the education from 2800 hours to 3200 hours for full

doctor title (by state licensure).

So yes......biomedicine is needed to be studied for obvious reasons.

But as you know.....no matter HOW MUCH preparation the newly licensed

graduate is a babe in the woods.

As to being respected by our patients - right on.

Results are all that counts.

I have never advertised since I first became licensed and I do not PUSH any

one for referrals.

I don't think its appropriate but that's just me.

A good deal of what you speak to is COMMON SENSE and that can not be

taught in any school.

Time practicing is one issue, while CEUs are another and what about

additional apprenticing?

Those practicing full time at least 5 years should be grandfathered without

hindrance.

This is supposed to be about the future of the profession NOT the past.

Besides......in 10 years or so most of the elders may not be in practice

anymore.

Its almost a moot issue.

Richard

In a message dated 11/26/2009 11:14:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

johnkokko writes:

I think the importance of learning the " bio-medical " stuff is purely

clinical to help our patients, not so that we can diagnose disease based

on

" biomedical " designations, but so that we can know red-flags and inform us

when we should refer out or to be cautious about certain kinds of acu-moxa

techniques..techniques..<WBR>. such as doing tui-na on patients with cancer

electro-acupuncture on someone's L5 hua-tuo-jia ji if they have a ruptured

disc.

We don't need a title for learning that, but it should be taught in the FDP

as I'm assuming that it's taught in the DAOM programs.

Our diagnosis should be informed on what the ancestors have taught us and

anything else that the body speaks through physiology and pathology. Of

course, pulse, palpation, looking, asking, listening and smelling are what

we do and should do well.

We won't be respected in the eyes of other professionals unless our

patients

get better, especially when other modalities fail. The title is an award

for our hard-work and the power of the medicine, which stands alone, but

should be respected along side other medical professions. The nature of

the FDP curriuculm should be the question, not if we should have it or

not. A major question is will those who have been practicing for 20 years

get grand-fathered in, if they have enough CEU's in their record to

qualify?

K

November 26, 2009

K

For me...I don't focus on what other professionals think of me.

And the only reward I want and get is the knowledge that the AOM

modalities in FACT helped the patient when other modalities fail.

I do get respect especially when MDs quietly refer patients to me or they

themselves wind up having me treat them.

You do know for the most part they operate in FEAR of their own Board of

Medicine.

Richard

In a message dated 11/26/2009 11:14:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

johnkokko writes:

We won't be respected in the eyes of other professionals unless our

patients

get better, especially when other modalities fail. The title is an award

for our hard-work and the power of the medicine, which stands alone, but

should be respected along side other medical professions.

November 26, 2009

Richard,

I think the importance of learning the " bio-medical " stuff is purely

clinical to help our patients, not so that we can diagnose disease based on

" biomedical " designations, but so that we can know red-flags and inform us

when we should refer out or to be cautious about certain kinds of acu-moxa

techniques... such as doing tui-na on patients with cancer or not doing

electro-acupuncture on someone's L5 hua-tuo-jia ji if they have a ruptured

disc.

We don't need a title for learning that, but it should be taught in the FDP

as I'm assuming that it's taught in the DAOM programs.

Our diagnosis should be informed on what the ancestors have taught us and

anything else that the body speaks through physiology and pathology. Of

course, pulse, palpation, looking, asking, listening and smelling are what

we do and should do well.

We won't be respected in the eyes of other professionals unless our patients

get better, especially when other modalities fail. The title is an award

for our hard-work and the power of the medicine, which stands alone, but

should be respected along side other medical professions. The nature of

the FDP curriuculm should be the question, not if we should have it or

not. A major question is will those who have been practicing for 20 years

get grand-fathered in, if they have enough CEU's in their record to

qualify?

K

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 7:51 AM, <acudoc11 wrote:

>

> K

>

> Don't disagree........ but then will such a student be awarded the MD or

> DO degree or something TOTALLY equivalent and recognized in all arenas

> (regional accreditation system and reimbursement as examples)?

>

> Richard

>

November 27, 2009

Very simple.

They report so and their MDs confirm.

And I recheck.

Richard

In a message dated 11/27/09 10:17:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

For sake of this discussion, how do you know that your patients are

getting better? Patients will stop care for many reasons, and I have heard

this

mentioned as a successful case, which we know it is not. Maybe our lack,

as a profession, into case mgmt should be explored better, especially for

chronic conditions.

November 27, 2009

For sake of this discussion, how do you know that your patients are getting

better? Patients will stop care for many reasons, and I have heard this

mentioned as a successful case, which we know it is not. Maybe our lack, as a

profession, into case mgmt should be explored better, especially for chronic

conditions.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:48:37 -0500

Re: What we didn't learn in AOM master's programs (but really

need to ...

K

For me...I don't focus on what other professionals think of me.

And the only reward I want and get is the knowledge that the AOM

modalities in FACT helped the patient when other modalities fail.

I do get respect especially when MDs quietly refer patients to me or they

themselves wind up having me treat them.

You do know for the most part they operate in FEAR of their own Board of

Medicine.

Richard

In a message dated 11/26/2009 11:14:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

johnkokko writes:

We won't be respected in the eyes of other professionals unless our

patients

get better, especially when other modalities fail. The title is an award

for our hard-work and the power of the medicine, which stands alone, but

should be respected along side other medical professions.

November 27, 2009

Let's not be cute here.

You asked about my patients.

My patients are THE " they " .

Richard

In a message dated 11/27/2009 7:58:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

Who is this nebulous they?

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

November 28, 2009

Who is this nebulous they?

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 27 Nov 2009 10:48:24 -0500

Re: What we didn't learn in AOM master's programs (but really

need to ...

Very simple.

They report so and their MDs confirm.

And I recheck.

Richard

In a message dated 11/27/09 10:17:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

For sake of this discussion, how do you know that your patients are

getting better? Patients will stop care for many reasons, and I have heard

this

mentioned as a successful case, which we know it is not. Maybe our lack,

as a profession, into case mgmt should be explored better, especially for

chronic conditions.

November 28, 2009

You might want to reread your previous response as this makes no sense.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

acudoc11

Fri, 27 Nov 2009 20:47:39 -0500

Re: What we didn't learn in AOM master's programs (but really

need to ...

Let's not be cute here.

You asked about my patients.

My patients are THE " they " .

Richard

In a message dated 11/27/2009 7:58:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

naturaldoc1 writes:

Who is this nebulous they?

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

November 28, 2009

Mike,

You know that your patients are getting better because their tongue and pulse

improve/resolve, their signs and symptoms go away, their

sleep/elimination/digestion return to normal, their energy/vitality/motility

improve or are restored. It is easy to track these things by asking and

graphing results. If you don't have a system for tracking progress of the Px's

condition, how will you ever know yor treatment effectiveness? How will the Px

ever know/remember how much your treatments have done for them? How will you

keep them excited about the changes in their health such that they naturally

talk to all their acquaintences and provide you with a constant stream of

referals that need your help?

Reevaluation is a powerful practice management tool that generates testimonials,

generates referals, fosters patient satisfaction, helps keep practitioners on

track with treatment strategy, helps practitioners know they are doing good

things for the patient(s), and generates nice graphics that can be anonym-ized

and posted on a success wall that prospective and new patients can view as they

imagine what their lives will be like once they benefit from the power of the

medical system you practice.

There are some interesting (but involved) " quality of life " -scoring

questionaires coming out of China lately.

Simply using 0-10 pain scores every encounter will reveal some improvements, but

ignore much more than they measure.

Mark Zaranski

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> For sake of this discussion, how do you know that your patients are getting

better? Patients will stop care for many reasons, and I have heard this

mentioned as a successful case, which we know it is not. Maybe our lack, as a

profession, into case mgmt should be explored better, especially for chronic

conditions.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> Chinese Medicine

> acudoc11

> Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:48:37 -0500

> Re: What we didn't learn in AOM master's programs (but really

need to ...

>

K

>

> For me...I don't focus on what other professionals think of me.

>

> And the only reward I want and get is the knowledge that the AOM

>

> modalities in FACT helped the patient when other modalities fail.

>

> I do get respect especially when MDs quietly refer patients to me or they

>

> themselves wind up having me treat them.

>

> You do know for the most part they operate in FEAR of their own Board of

>

> Medicine.

>

> Richard

>

> In a message dated 11/26/2009 11:14:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>

> johnkokko writes:

>

> We won't be respected in the eyes of other professionals unless our

>

> patients

>

> get better, especially when other modalities fail. The title is an award

>

> for our hard-work and the power of the medicine, which stands alone, but

>

> should be respected along side other medical professions.

>

November 28, 2009

Hi all:

--Mark-

There are some interesting (but involved) " quality of life " -scoring

questionaires coming out of China lately.

---

Okay Meester Zaranski, cough up the references. You can't write something like

that and not give us sources, it's in the rules somewhere.

Expectantly waiting,

Hugo

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.middlemedicine.org

November 28, 2009

So where is the hard data? This is missing and although we like to think that

we are affecting people positively, we have little data to back this promise up.

Therein lies a big issue for getting people to trust us and to take us

seriously.

Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

Chinese Medicine

zaranski

Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:41:39 +0000

Re: What we didn't learn in AOM master's programs (but really

need to ...

Mike,

You know that your patients are getting better because their tongue and pulse

improve/resolve, their signs and symptoms go away, their

sleep/elimination/digestion return to normal, their energy/vitality/motility

improve or are restored. It is easy to track these things by asking and

graphing results. If you don't have a system for tracking progress of the Px's

condition, how will you ever know yor treatment effectiveness? How will the Px

ever know/remember how much your treatments have done for them? How will you

keep them excited about the changes in their health such that they naturally

talk to all their acquaintences and provide you with a constant stream of

referals that need your help?

Reevaluation is a powerful practice management tool that generates testimonials,

generates referals, fosters patient satisfaction, helps keep practitioners on

track with treatment strategy, helps practitioners know they are doing good

things for the patient(s), and generates nice graphics that can be anonym-ized

and posted on a success wall that prospective and new patients can view as they

imagine what their lives will be like once they benefit from the power of the

medical system you practice.

There are some interesting (but involved) " quality of life " -scoring

questionaires coming out of China lately.

Simply using 0-10 pain scores every encounter will reveal some improvements, but

ignore much more than they measure.

Mark Zaranski

Chinese Medicine , mike Bowser

<naturaldoc1 wrote:

>

> For sake of this discussion, how do you know that your patients are getting

better? Patients will stop care for many reasons, and I have heard this

mentioned as a successful case, which we know it is not. Maybe our lack, as a

profession, into case mgmt should be explored better, especially for chronic

conditions.

>

> Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc

>

> Chinese Medicine

> acudoc11

> Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:48:37 -0500

> Re: What we didn't learn in AOM master's programs (but really

need to ...

>

> K

>

> For me...I don't focus on what other professionals think of me.

>

> And the only reward I want and get is the knowledge that the AOM

>

> modalities in FACT helped the patient when other modalities fail.

>

> I do get respect especially when MDs quietly refer patients to me or they

>

> themselves wind up having me treat them.

>

> You do know for the most part they operate in FEAR of their own Board of

>

> Medicine.

>

> Richard

>

> In a message dated 11/26/2009 11:14:54 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

>

> johnkokko writes:

>

> We won't be respected in the eyes of other professionals unless our

>

> patients

>

> get better, especially when other modalities fail. The title is an award

>

> for our hard-work and the power of the medicine, which stands alone, but

>

> should be respected along side other medical professions.

>

November 30, 2009

Glad you are interested, Hugo!

BioMedCentral (BMC) Complementary & Alternative Medicine 2004, 4:1 Development

and validation of a new global well-being outcomes rating scale for integrative

medicine research, Bell, Cunningham, Caspi, Meek, and Ferro. available from

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/4/1

Health & Quality of Life Outcomes, 2005, 3:26

Development and validation of the Chinese Quality of Life Instrument, Kwok-fai

Leung, Feng-bin Liu, Li Zhao, Ji-Qian Fang, KelvinChan and Li-zhu Lin.

available from

http://www.hqlo.com/content/3/1/26

2009, 4:8

Further validation of the Health Scale of Traditional (HSTCM),

Darong Wu, Shilong Lai, Luojing Zhou, Xinfeng Duo, Weixiong Liang, Zehuai Wen,

Aihua Ou, Guangqing Zhang and Keji Chen.

available from

http://www.cmjournal.org/content/4/1/8

Hope you find something of interest in these.

We use a much simpler (re)evaluation system (every eigth treatment) that results

in a percentage overall positive change that we graph against number of

treatments (roughly related to time...I alluded to this method in my previous

post). Once a Client exceeds 60% change they are invited to write a testimonial

to share with 5 of their acquaintences and to add to our testimonials " book " .

As a reward for doing this work they receive a nice quality embroidered tennis

shirt (staff wear for outside events and on Thursdays at our Clinic) in their

choice of black or white. These are very nice casual shirts that are

comfortable to wear. Many established Clients wear them proudly and report that

people ask them about acupuncture when they wear their shirts. They tell the

inquirers about their experience at our Clinic and this generates more referals.

I feel it is important to have a re-evaluation system that is used consistantly,

one that generates useful data that helps document and improve your services

while being meaningful to the Client such that it reinforces their committment

to their health (motivating).

Mark Zaranski

(putting the soapbox back under the desk now)

Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor

wrote:

>

> Hi all:

>

> --Mark-

> There are some interesting (but involved) " quality of life " -scoring

questionaires coming out of China lately.

> ---

>

> Okay Meester Zaranski, cough up the references. You can't write something

like that and not give us sources, it's in the rules somewhere.

>

> Expectantly waiting,

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.middlemedicine.org

>

November 30, 2009

Mark,

Many thanks for the post. I also believe that some way of keeping track of pt.

progress is vital. In Wang's/Robertson's new Applied Channel Theory book, Dr.

Wang relates an anecdote of his early days as a clinician where he needed to

keep a clinic notebook of difficult cases to help track and improve the

outcomes.

Would you post the pt. eval form you use or email it?

thanks again, keith

Chinese Medicine , " zedbowls " <zaranski

wrote:

>

> Glad you are interested, Hugo!

>

> BioMedCentral (BMC) Complementary & Alternative Medicine 2004, 4:1 Development

and validation of a new global well-being outcomes rating scale for integrative

medicine research, Bell, Cunningham, Caspi, Meek, and Ferro. available from

> http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/4/1

>

> Health & Quality of Life Outcomes, 2005, 3:26

> Development and validation of the Chinese Quality of Life Instrument, Kwok-fai

Leung, Feng-bin Liu, Li Zhao, Ji-Qian Fang, KelvinChan and Li-zhu Lin.

available from

> http://www.hqlo.com/content/3/1/26

>

> 2009, 4:8

> Further validation of the Health Scale of Traditional

(HSTCM), Darong Wu, Shilong Lai, Luojing Zhou, Xinfeng Duo, Weixiong Liang,

Zehuai Wen, Aihua Ou, Guangqing Zhang and Keji Chen.

> available from

> http://www.cmjournal.org/content/4/1/8

>

> Hope you find something of interest in these.

>

> We use a much simpler (re)evaluation system (every eigth treatment) that

results in a percentage overall positive change that we graph against number of