useful TCM oncology texts: Tai lahans vs li peiwen?

[Guest guest]

margi:

 

i have li peiwen's mgmt of CA. the couple of drawbacks i have noticed is

that there are many types of cancer that are not discussed, eg. lymphatic,

cervical. and the dietary section is not indexed by symptom/pattern and

contains may herbs/ingredients that are difficult to find/not in common

usage: even in asian markets.

 

you mention that it's notable for it's herbal directions. what other

comments might you (or others) have in comparing it to tai lahans

Integrating Conventional and in Cancer Care: A Clinical

Guide (which you decribe as being deep in a western explanation of CA,

staging, ect.)?

 

kath

 

On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:28 AM, margi.macdonald

<margi.macdonaldwrote:

 

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " Brian Harasha " <bharasha wrote:

> >

> >

> > That book you mentioned:

> >

> >

> > Integrating Conventional and in Cancer Care: A Clinical

> > Guide (Hardcover) by Tai Lahans LAC MTCM MEd

> >

> >

> >

> > Can you or others on this group comment on it, how useful, correct, etc.

> it is. I have no books of this sort and it seems like I should have for when

> the time comes.

>

> Hi Brian

>

> of the three TCM Oncology texts I have, I find the Lahans the most

> clinically useful and relevant on a day-to-day basis.

>

> It contains excellent discussions about the biomedical understandings,

> causes, classifications, tumour/tissue types, staging of cancers & treatment

> approaches - mandatory for us to know, especially as most patients become as

> well-versed in oncology as their oncologists!

> The TCM explanations are superb, the cancers and their TCM patterns, their

> etiologies and herbal treatments are very well explained.... to understand

> cancer from a TCM perspective, get this book!

>

> Tai Lahans is highly regarded world-wide for her work, by oncologists and

> TCM practitioners.

>

> Other books to think about:

> Li Peiwen's " Management of Cancer with " - a very well

> respected Doctor in China - the herbalist's herbalist I'd say.

>

> Stephen Sagar's " Restored Harmony- an Evidence Based Approach for

> Integrating Traditional into Complementary Cancer Care " -

> by the current president of the Society of Integrative Oncology - an

> oncologist who studied TCM, and has never forgotten the role of the Mind &

> Spirit! This is the book to give to an oncologist for his/her birthday

>

> Margi Macdonald

> http://margihealing.wordpress.com/

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for :

www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC

 

and from the following supply companies:

Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " "

wrote:

>

>

" i have li peiwen's mgmt of CA. the couple of drawbacks i have noticed is that

there are many types of cancer that are not discussed, eg. lymphatic, cervical.

and the dietary section is not indexed by symptom/pattern and contains may

herbs/ingredients that are difficult to find/not in common usage: even in asian

markets.

 

you mention that it's notable for it's herbal directions. what other

comments might you (or others) have in comparing it to tai lahans

Integrating Conventional and in Cancer Care: A Clinical Guide "

 

Hi Kath

I feel the Lahans for most practitioners working in 'ordinary' office/clinic

environments is outstanding, and will give any of us the confidence to assist

folk with oncological conditions.

I don't often use my copy of Li Peiwen, just have it there as a fabulous herbal

reference text; I feel it's not as well suited to western clinical practice,

which is becoming more and more integrative.

I have seen a number of folk with different types of cancers, and to be frank,

few people will thank us for diligently suggesting they go home and brew up a

vile-tasting decoction a couple of times a day, when it's all they can do to eat

and drink anything at all on their worst days after chemo.

It's possible to help folk considerably with the common / patent formulae, plus

acup and moxa.

Lahans brings the biomed and TCM together beautifully, and covers most of the

common cancers, and death & dying, and prevention.

 

Interested to hear what others think about these texts too!

 

Trusting things went well for you and the client today.

 

Margi

[Guest guest]

it turns out this round the patient didn't have mouth sores, she had sore

throat instead. so i made her a tea from li peiwen with mai dong, pang da

hai, jin yin hua, gou qi zi, gan cao, and jie geng. (30-50g ea) he said to

infuse it by boiling and drink as a tea, which kind of threw me. i wasn't

sure what the cooking instruct would be for an infusion and how that would

differ from decocting. i think of infusions as a quick boiling for flowers

and leaves, but this has some roots (jie geng, gan cao). i wasn't sure how

much water she should use, how much it would make, and how many doses it

would provide.

 

i'm ordering water melon frost in a spray as goldern needle doesn't have

sup. sore thoat pwd.

 

k

 

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:48 AM, margi.macdonald

<margi.macdonaldwrote:

 

>

>

> --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>,

> " " wrote:

> >

> >

> " i have li peiwen's mgmt of CA. the couple of drawbacks i have noticed is

> that there are many types of cancer that are not discussed, eg. lymphatic,

> cervical. and the dietary section is not indexed by symptom/pattern and

> contains may herbs/ingredients that are difficult to find/not in common

> usage: even in asian markets.

>

> you mention that it's notable for it's herbal directions. what other

> comments might you (or others) have in comparing it to tai lahans

> Integrating Conventional and in Cancer Care: A Clinical

> Guide "

>

> Hi Kath

> I feel the Lahans for most practitioners working in 'ordinary'

> office/clinic environments is outstanding, and will give any of us the

> confidence to assist folk with oncological conditions.

> I don't often use my copy of Li Peiwen, just have it there as a fabulous

> herbal reference text; I feel it's not as well suited to western clinical

> practice, which is becoming more and more integrative.

> I have seen a number of folk with different types of cancers, and to be

> frank, few people will thank us for diligently suggesting they go home and

> brew up a vile-tasting decoction a couple of times a day, when it's all they

> can do to eat and drink anything at all on their worst days after chemo.

> It's possible to help folk considerably with the common / patent formulae,

> plus acup and moxa.

> Lahans brings the biomed and TCM together beautifully, and covers most of

> the common cancers, and death & dying, and prevention.

>

> Interested to hear what others think about these texts too!

>

> Trusting things went well for you and the client today.

>

> Margi

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for :

www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC

 

and from the following supply companies:

Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Are you sure he didn't want granules you dissolve in hot water?

 

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:45 AM,

wrote:

 

>

>

> it turns out this round the patient didn't have mouth sores, she had sore

> throat instead. so i made her a tea from li peiwen with mai dong, pang da

> hai, jin yin hua, gou qi zi, gan cao, and jie geng. (30-50g ea) he said to

> infuse it by boiling and drink as a tea, which kind of threw me. i wasn't

> sure what the cooking instruct would be for an infusion and how that would

> differ from decocting. i think of infusions as a quick boiling for flowers

> and leaves, but this has some roots (jie geng, gan cao). i wasn't sure how

> much water she should use, how much it would make, and how many doses it

> would provide.

>

> i'm ordering water melon frost in a spray as goldern needle doesn't have

> sup. sore thoat pwd.

>

> k

>

> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:48 AM, margi.macdonald

> <margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald%40gmail.com>>wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>,

>

> > " " wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > " i have li peiwen's mgmt of CA. the couple of drawbacks i have noticed is

> > that there are many types of cancer that are not discussed, eg.

> lymphatic,

> > cervical. and the dietary section is not indexed by symptom/pattern and

> > contains may herbs/ingredients that are difficult to find/not in common

> > usage: even in asian markets.

> >

> > you mention that it's notable for it's herbal directions. what other

> > comments might you (or others) have in comparing it to tai lahans

> > Integrating Conventional and in Cancer Care: A Clinical

> > Guide "

> >

> > Hi Kath

> > I feel the Lahans for most practitioners working in 'ordinary'

> > office/clinic environments is outstanding, and will give any of us the

> > confidence to assist folk with oncological conditions.

> > I don't often use my copy of Li Peiwen, just have it there as a fabulous

> > herbal reference text; I feel it's not as well suited to western clinical

> > practice, which is becoming more and more integrative.

> > I have seen a number of folk with different types of cancers, and to be

> > frank, few people will thank us for diligently suggesting they go home

> and

> > brew up a vile-tasting decoction a couple of times a day, when it's all

> they

> > can do to eat and drink anything at all on their worst days after chemo.

> > It's possible to help folk considerably with the common / patent

> formulae,

> > plus acup and moxa.

> > Lahans brings the biomed and TCM together beautifully, and covers most of

> > the common cancers, and death & dying, and prevention.

> >

> > Interested to hear what others think about these texts too!

> >

> > Trusting things went well for you and the client today.

> >

> > Margi

> >

> >

> >

>

> --

>

> Oriental Medicine

> Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

>

> Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

> http://acukath.blogspot.com/

>

> Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

> Available at Asheville Center for :

> www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com <http://www.flyingdragonliniment.com/>

>

> Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC

>

> and from the following supply companies:

> Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

> https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

>

> Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

>

>

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

>

> Asheville Center For

> 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/>

>

>

[Guest guest]

no, he didn't mention anything about granules, and all of the formulas in

the book are written for raw herbs.

 

k

 

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Robert Chu <chusauli wrote:

 

>

>

> Are you sure he didn't want granules you dissolve in hot water?

>

> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:45 AM,

> <acukath <acukath%40gmail.com>>wrote:

>

>

> >

> >

> > it turns out this round the patient didn't have mouth sores, she had sore

> > throat instead. so i made her a tea from li peiwen with mai dong, pang da

> > hai, jin yin hua, gou qi zi, gan cao, and jie geng. (30-50g ea) he said

> to

> > infuse it by boiling and drink as a tea, which kind of threw me. i wasn't

> > sure what the cooking instruct would be for an infusion and how that

> would

> > differ from decocting. i think of infusions as a quick boiling for

> flowers

> > and leaves, but this has some roots (jie geng, gan cao). i wasn't sure

> how

> > much water she should use, how much it would make, and how many doses it

> > would provide.

> >

> > i'm ordering water melon frost in a spray as goldern needle doesn't have

> > sup. sore thoat pwd.

> >

> > k

> >

> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:48 AM, margi.macdonald

> > <margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald%40gmail.com><margi.macdonald%

> 40gmail.com>>wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > --- In

Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\

ogroups.com>

> <Chinese Medicine%40>

> > <Chinese Medicine%40>,

>

> >

> > > " " wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > " i have li peiwen's mgmt of CA. the couple of drawbacks i have noticed

> is

> > > that there are many types of cancer that are not discussed, eg.

> > lymphatic,

> > > cervical. and the dietary section is not indexed by symptom/pattern and

> > > contains may herbs/ingredients that are difficult to find/not in common

> > > usage: even in asian markets.

> > >

> > > you mention that it's notable for it's herbal directions. what other

> > > comments might you (or others) have in comparing it to tai lahans

> > > Integrating Conventional and in Cancer Care: A

> Clinical

> > > Guide "

> > >

> > > Hi Kath

> > > I feel the Lahans for most practitioners working in 'ordinary'

> > > office/clinic environments is outstanding, and will give any of us the

> > > confidence to assist folk with oncological conditions.

> > > I don't often use my copy of Li Peiwen, just have it there as a

> fabulous

> > > herbal reference text; I feel it's not as well suited to western

> clinical

> > > practice, which is becoming more and more integrative.

> > > I have seen a number of folk with different types of cancers, and to be

> > > frank, few people will thank us for diligently suggesting they go home

> > and

> > > brew up a vile-tasting decoction a couple of times a day, when it's all

> > they

> > > can do to eat and drink anything at all on their worst days after

> chemo.

> > > It's possible to help folk considerably with the common / patent

> > formulae,

> > > plus acup and moxa.

> > > Lahans brings the biomed and TCM together beautifully, and covers most

> of

> > > the common cancers, and death & dying, and prevention.

> > >

> > > Interested to hear what others think about these texts too!

> > >

> > > Trusting things went well for you and the client today.

> > >

> > > Margi

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > --

> >

> > Oriental Medicine

> > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

> >

> > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

> > http://acukath.blogspot.com/

> >

> > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

> > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

> > Available at Asheville Center for :

> > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com <http://www.flyingdragonliniment.com/>

> >

> > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC

> >

> > and from the following supply companies:

> > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

> > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

> >

> > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

> >

> >

>

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

> >

> > Asheville Center For

> > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

> > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

> >

kbartlett<kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com><kbartle\

tt%40AcupunctureAsheville.com>

> > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/>

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Miss Bartlett and group:

 

I also have the TCM oncology text of Li, pei-wen but it is in Chinese version. I

find it very informative but I guess the contents are different from that of

English copy. It is because there are quite a few formulas about treating

lumpatic and others as you mentioned in your post. Most of the formulas,

however, are sourced from journals articles.

 

I would you to comment (please be critical) upon one of the medicinal recipes

that I wrote in my coming book: Fighting tumor with medicinal dishes. It will

fit the sign of mouth sore resulting from chemotherapy.

 

Honeysuckle, Green Beans, and Pear Drink

 

Medicinal actions: to clear heat, resolve toxins, and promote fluids

Indications: oral ulceration

Medicinals:

Honeysuckle (jin ying hua) 15g

Green bean 30g

Dried Chinese pear slice 40g

 

Preparations:

1 Wash all the medicinals.

2 Soak the green beans in boiled water overnight. Place honeysuckle and dried

Chinese pear slices in a mesh bag.

3 Place all the medicinals in the container and pour in 5 cups of water (approx.

1250ml). Turn to high heat. When the water boils, turn to low heat and condense

it to 2 cups (500ml) of decoction.

 

4 Discard the mesh bag; melt some rock sugar to taste.

 

Pharmacology:

1 Honeysuckle (jinyinghua): It¡¦s sweet and cold in nature. It can clear heat

and resolve toxins. It contains cyclohexanone-6, flavonoids, inositol, saponins

and tannins. Its properties contain broad-spectrum antimicrobial activity.

Honeysuckle extract or decoction is lethal to experimental tumor cells.

 

2 Green beans: It¡¦s sweet and cold in nature. It has heat-clearing,

detoxifying, and diuretic effects. It contains carotenoids, proteins, fats,

vitamins B1, and B2.

 

3 Dried pear slices: It is sweet and the nature is mildly cold. It can promote

fluids, clear heat, and transform phlegm.

 

Remark:

Use raw Chinese pear to substitute the dried slice if it is not available.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Sung, Yuk-ming L Ac (Hong Kong)

[Guest guest]

sounds easy enough. the only difficulty in this country would be finding

the chinese pears. would a standard variety do?

 

does your book give more direction as to how to prepare the infusion?

 

kath

 

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 11:56 AM, sxm2649 <sxm2649 wrote:

 

>

>

> Miss Bartlett and group:

>

> I also have the TCM oncology text of Li, pei-wen but it is in Chinese

> version. I find it very informative but I guess the contents are different

> from that of English copy. It is because there are quite a few formulas

> about treating lumpatic and others as you mentioned in your post. Most of

> the formulas, however, are sourced from journals articles.

>

> I would you to comment (please be critical) upon one of the medicinal

> recipes that I wrote in my coming book: Fighting tumor with medicinal

> dishes. It will fit the sign of mouth sore resulting from chemotherapy.

>

> Honeysuckle, Green Beans, and Pear Drink

>

> Medicinal actions: to clear heat, resolve toxins, and promote fluids

> Indications: oral ulceration

> Medicinals:

> Honeysuckle (jin ying hua) 15g

> Green bean 30g

> Dried Chinese pear slice 40g

>

> Preparations:

> 1 Wash all the medicinals.

> 2 Soak the green beans in boiled water overnight. Place honeysuckle and

> dried Chinese pear slices in a mesh bag.

> 3 Place all the medicinals in the container and pour in 5 cups of water

> (approx. 1250ml). Turn to high heat. When the water boils, turn to low heat

> and condense it to 2 cups (500ml) of decoction.

>

> 4 Discard the mesh bag; melt some rock sugar to taste.

>

> Pharmacology:

> 1 Honeysuckle (jinyinghua): It¡¦s sweet and cold in nature. It can clear

> heat and resolve toxins. It contains cyclohexanone-6, flavonoids, inositol,

> saponins and tannins. Its properties contain broad-spectrum antimicrobial

> activity. Honeysuckle extract or decoction is lethal to experimental tumor

> cells.

>

> 2 Green beans: It¡¦s sweet and cold in nature. It has heat-clearing,

> detoxifying, and diuretic effects. It contains carotenoids, proteins, fats,

> vitamins B1, and B2.

>

> 3 Dried pear slices: It is sweet and the nature is mildly cold. It can

> promote fluids, clear heat, and transform phlegm.

>

> Remark:

> Use raw Chinese pear to substitute the dried slice if it is not available.

>

> Thanks in advance.

>

> Sung, Yuk-ming L Ac (Hong Kong)

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA

Oriental Medicine

Experienced, Dedicated, Effective

 

Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality:

http://acukath.blogspot.com/

 

Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints

Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist

Available at Asheville Center for :

www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com

 

Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC

 

and from the following supply companies:

Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown

https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1

 

Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC

http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \

product=5554 & pg=

 

 

Asheville Center For

70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two

Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777

kbartlett

www.AcupunctureAsheville.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dried pear slices is considered a medicinal and is popular in the southern area

of China, especially in Guangdong. The Chinese pear I am referring to is called

duck-mouth pear (from Heibei province). It is light yellow in color and in

eyedrop shape. Try the grocery stores in Chinatown.

 

Other variety may serve the similar purpose except those Japanese pears (or any

pear) which are extremely sweet. We are after the cooling nature of the fruit.

Another alternative is water chestnut.

 

My instruction of preparation method is the most popular way to peparing drinks,

plenty of water and less decoction time, unlike decocting medicinal. I

appreciate you indicate any ambiguities regarding the preparation method.

 

Regards,

Sung Yuk-ming