Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 patient is getting sore mouth as s/e with chemo. worsen with low immunity esp 8-12 days post chemo. any suggestions for remedies? -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2009 Report Share Posted August 15, 2009 Clear stomach heat, tonify yin? - " " " PCOM Alumni " <alumni Cc: " TCM List " <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Saturday, August 15, 2009 10:06 AM mouth soreness with chemo? > patient is getting sore mouth as s/e with chemo. worsen with low immunity > esp 8-12 days post chemo. > > any suggestions for remedies? > > -- > Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA > Oriental Medicine > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > Available at Asheville Center for : > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com > > Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC > > and from the following supply companies: > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > > Asheville Center For > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > kbartlett > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2009 Report Share Posted August 16, 2009 Kath, you need to boost their qi, nourish the blood. It would seem to me that the mouth is sore because the muscles are weak. A formula like Bu Zhong Yi Qi Tang combined with Si Wu tang, and adding in Ji Xue Teng which regenerates white and red blood cells, and is specifically indicated to ameliorate symptom of chemo. Of course, you have to treat based upon the differential diagnosis from the tongue, pulses and presentation, not just symptoms. --- On Sat, 8/15/09, wrote: mouth soreness with chemo? " PCOM Alumni " <alumni Cc: " TCM List " <Chinese Traditional Medicine > Saturday, August 15, 2009, 10:06 AM patient is getting sore mouth as s/e with chemo. worsen with low immunity esp 8-12 days post chemo. any suggestions for remedies? -- Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath. blogspot. com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLin iment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www. kamwo.com/ shop/product. php?productid= 17442 & cat= 0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenne edleonline. com/index. php?page= categories & category= 14 & vendor= & product= 5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett@Acupunctu reAsheville. com www.AcupunctureAshe ville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > > patient is getting sore mouth as s/e with chemo. worsen with low immunity > esp 8-12 days post chemo. > > any suggestions for remedies? Hi Kath, Hi All Tai Lahans in the excellent book 'Integrating Conventional & in Cancer Care' gives the following suggestions. The introductory comments about this stomatitis/mucositis are very helpful too. Lahans lists main patterns, signs and symptoms of each, and suggested remedies: Stomach Cold ...... Liang ge san or Huang lian jie du pian Empty Fire flaring ..... Zhi bai di huang tang or Qing re bu qi tang Middle jiao deficiency..... Bu Zhong yi qi tang jia wei Lahans makes no comment about potential herb-drug interactions with these formulae. You'll need a mouth wash/rinse as well. Lahans also suggests: Decocting 2 parts licorice [gan cao] to 1 part Coptis [huang lian] and using as a swish and swallow gargle to cool the lesions and treat pain. Gargling green tea with jin yin hua [Lonicera] Watermelon powder spritzed on the lesions I've also advised Sanjin Watermelon Frost Lozenges for folk with extreme heat and inflammation and pain.... they are VERY cold. You might also like to investigate medicinal honeys, such as Manuka from New Zealand. Hope this helps Margi Macdonald http://margihealing.wordpress.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Huang Lian Jie Du Pian for Stomach Cold? Doesn't make sense. - Bill Schoenbart > Tai Lahans in the excellent book 'Integrating Conventional & in Cancer Care' gives the following suggestions. > The introductory comments about this stomatitis/mucositis are very helpful too. > > Lahans lists main patterns, signs and symptoms of each, and suggested remedies: > > Stomach Cold ...... Liang ge san or Huang lian jie du pian > Empty Fire flaring ..... Zhi bai di huang tang or Qing re bu qi tang > Middle jiao deficiency..... Bu Zhong yi qi tang jia wei > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 I am sure that was a typo that should have read Stomach Heat based on both formulas mentioned. Hugo ________________________________ Hugo Ramiro http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org ________________________________ bill_schoenbart <plantmed2 Chinese Medicine Tuesday, 18 August, 2009 15:20:54 Re: mouth soreness with chemo? Huang Lian Jie Du Pian for Stomach Cold? Doesn't make sense. - Bill Schoenbart > Tai Lahans in the excellent book 'Integrating Conventional & in Cancer Care' gives the following suggestions. > The introductory comments about this stomatitis/mucositi s are very helpful too. > > Lahans lists main patterns, signs and symptoms of each, and suggested remedies: > > Stomach Cold ...... Liang ge san or Huang lian jie du pian > Empty Fire flaring ..... Zhi bai di huang tang or Qing re bu qi tang > Middle jiao deficiency.. ... Bu Zhong yi qi tang jia wei > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 margi: quite helpful. thank you for posting. also appreciate the corrections on ST Cold: couldn't imagine a TCM rational for how ST Cold produces mouth sores btw: someone on another list was interested in replies to this query. may i have your permission to forward your response? i won't use your name or email address. k On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 10:53 PM, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald > wrote: > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " " wrote: > > > > patient is getting sore mouth as s/e with chemo. worsen with low immunity > > esp 8-12 days post chemo. > > > > any suggestions for remedies? > > Hi Kath, Hi All > > Tai Lahans in the excellent book 'Integrating Conventional & Chinese > Medicine in Cancer Care' gives the following suggestions. > The introductory comments about this stomatitis/mucositis are very helpful > too. > > Lahans lists main patterns, signs and symptoms of each, and suggested > remedies: > > Stomach Cold ...... Liang ge san or Huang lian jie du pian > Empty Fire flaring ..... Zhi bai di huang tang or Qing re bu qi tang > Middle jiao deficiency..... Bu Zhong yi qi tang jia wei > > Lahans makes no comment about potential herb-drug interactions with these > formulae. > > You'll need a mouth wash/rinse as well. > > Lahans also suggests: > Decocting 2 parts licorice [gan cao] to 1 part Coptis [huang lian] and > using as a swish and swallow gargle to cool the lesions and treat pain. > Gargling green tea with jin yin hua [Lonicera] > Watermelon powder spritzed on the lesions > > I've also advised Sanjin Watermelon Frost Lozenges for folk with extreme > heat and inflammation and pain.... they are VERY cold. > You might also like to investigate medicinal honeys, such as Manuka from > New Zealand. > > Hope this helps > Margi Macdonald > http://margihealing.wordpress.com/ > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 margi: quite helpful. thank you for posting. also appreciate the corrections on ST Cold: couldn't imagine a TCM rational for how ST Cold produces mouth sores btw: someone on another list was interested in replies to this query. may i have your permission to forward your response? i won't use your name or email address. k On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 10:53 PM, margi.macdonald <margi.macdonald > wrote: > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " " wrote: > > > > patient is getting sore mouth as s/e with chemo. worsen with low immunity > > esp 8-12 days post chemo. > > > > any suggestions for remedies? > > Hi Kath, Hi All > > Tai Lahans in the excellent book 'Integrating Conventional & Chinese > Medicine in Cancer Care' gives the following suggestions. > The introductory comments about this stomatitis/mucositis are very helpful > too. > > Lahans lists main patterns, signs and symptoms of each, and suggested > remedies: > > Stomach Cold ...... Liang ge san or Huang lian jie du pian > Empty Fire flaring ..... Zhi bai di huang tang or Qing re bu qi tang > Middle jiao deficiency..... Bu Zhong yi qi tang jia wei > > Lahans makes no comment about potential herb-drug interactions with these > formulae. > > You'll need a mouth wash/rinse as well. > > Lahans also suggests: > Decocting 2 parts licorice [gan cao] to 1 part Coptis [huang lian] and > using as a swish and swallow gargle to cool the lesions and treat pain. > Gargling green tea with jin yin hua [Lonicera] > Watermelon powder spritzed on the lesions > > I've also advised Sanjin Watermelon Frost Lozenges for folk with extreme > heat and inflammation and pain.... they are VERY cold. > You might also like to investigate medicinal honeys, such as Manuka from > New Zealand. > > Hope this helps > Margi Macdonald > http://margihealing.wordpress.com/ > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Chinese Medicine , " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote: > > Huang Lian Jie Du Pian for Stomach Cold? Doesn't make sense. > > - Bill Schoenbart Hi Bill, and All Great pick-up; I have gone back to the book, and here is the published rationale for using such a cold formula in folk with Cold Stomach/Sp - the perils of rushing & summarising. The formula is recommended for Spleen/stomach Stasis " due to the cold nature of chemotherapy that transforms and flares upward to steam and scorch the oral cavity. " " This presentation looks like gingivitis, cankers, or perhaps HSV. The flesh breaks down. When a cold excess is present for a period of time, the stasis will lead to heat excess, or more probably, deficiency heat. The pulse is wiry, forceful and fat. The tongue is red. Treatment principles: to clear heat in the stomach and nourish the yin. " The suggested formulae definitely are Liang ge san or Huang lain jie du pian. As I read it, this is one of those situations where one walks a terribly fine line in already very sick people - needing to clear an excess Heat condition in a person with multiple deficiencies. Huang lain jie du pain would only be used for a brief period in the Sp/Stomach Cold Stasis people; I understand it as one of those remedies which should only be used short-term. If thrush sets in, there is another problem to contend with. Lahans notes chronic ulcers with oral candidiasis are likely in those with Middle Jiao deficiency. He does list Stomach Cold ulcers which are treated with Fu zi li zhong tang as " pale, painful, recurrent, and either raised or flat ... tongue body is pale " plus other typical signs and symptoms of Cold in the body, noting that " the pulse may be full because it's an excess condition... the key is the pale tongue, and the use of chemo in the early rounds of Rx.. and that this pattern may transform into the Sp/St stasis pattern due to cold. " I left that out of the original post; apologies for the omission. The Lahans text is very good, with excellent allopathic discussions, and TCM recommendations for managing people with the most common cancers, concurrent issues, death & dying, and prevention. ISBN 978-0-443-10063-5 Margi Macdonald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > > margi: > > quite helpful. thank you for posting. also appreciate the corrections on > ST Cold: couldn't imagine a TCM rational for how ST Cold produces mouth > sores > > btw: someone on another list was interested in replies to this query. may i > have your permission to forward your response? i won't use your name or > email address. > > k Hi Kath I've just added another post, in response to the Cold formula for a Cold condition queries... thanks for asking about forwarding my response - it's ok with me - you might like to wait until my other post is up, as the rationale and additional pattern for Cold stomach [ which I had omitted ] are in that one. Or buy the book, Tai Lahans is the expert! Warmly Margi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 That book you mentioned: Integrating Conventional and in Cancer Care: A Clinical Guide (Hardcover) by <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?%5 Fencoding=UTF8 & sort=relevancerank & search-type=ss & index=books & field-author=Ta i%20Lahans%20LAC%20%20MTCM%20%20MEd> Tai Lahans LAC MTCM MEd Can you or others on this group comment on it, how useful, correct, etc. it is. I have no books of this sort and it seems like I should have for when the time comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > > patient is getting sore mouth as s/e with chemo. worsen with low immunity > esp 8-12 days post chemo. > > any suggestions for remedies? > > -- > Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA >Hi Kath, Dr. Huang Huang recommends Gan Cao Xie Xin Tang for mouth sores for depleted Chemo patients. This has to do with the lines in the Jin Gui Yao Lue where it is recommended for Hu Huo illness (very much like Behcet's). Actually he uses it for mucous membrane sores in general in depleted patients. Since beginning to study with him I have used it just a couple of times in combination formulas and my patients found it to help considerably. Best Sharon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 sharon & margi: i see the patient today. much appreciate your suggestions and guidance. kath On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 7:37 AM, swzoe2000 <sweiz wrote: > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " " wrote: > > > > patient is getting sore mouth as s/e with chemo. worsen with low immunity > > esp 8-12 days post chemo. > > > > any suggestions for remedies? > > > > -- > > > > >Hi Kath, > > Dr. Huang Huang recommends Gan Cao Xie Xin Tang for mouth sores for > depleted Chemo patients. This has to do with the lines in the Jin Gui Yao > Lue where it is recommended for Hu Huo illness (very much like Behcet's). > Actually he uses it for mucous membrane sores in general in depleted > patients. Since beginning to study with him I have used it just a couple of > times in combination formulas and my patients found it to help considerably. > > > Best > > Sharon > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com Greenlife Grocery - Asheville, NC and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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