Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui pills

[Guest guest]

Treasure of the East offer these formulas in powder extract or capsule

forms. I know that one of the North American distributors (Blue Light) has

the capsules. Not sure if Eric Brand's Legendary Herbs does. Perhaps he can

chime in here.

 

As for the xi xin inclusion, that's unknown. It's one of those aristilochic

acid herbs, right?

 

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 8:04 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

 

> I'm looking for a GMP certified herb company that carries classical pill

> formulations

> from the Shang han za bing lun: Shang han lun and Jin gui yao lue.

>

> Looking for formulas, such as

> Chai hu gui zhi wan

> Li zhong wan

> Ban xia xie xin wan

> Gui zhi jia long gu mu li wan

> Dang gui si ni wan (with the xi xin in it)

>

 

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

I'm looking for a GMP certified herb company that carries classical pill

formulations

from the Shang han za bing lun: Shang han lun and Jin gui yao lue.

 

Looking for formulas, such as

Chai hu gui zhi wan

Li zhong wan

Ban xia xie xin wan

Gui zhi jia long gu mu li wan

Dang gui si ni wan (with the xi xin in it)

 

Sun ten, Qualiherbs, KPC carries the concentrated granules.

Looking for pills/ capsules.

 

Thanks.

 

 

--

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

 

 

TCM Review director

CA State Board Prep Courses

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Interesting to note that some Ma Huang is showing up again in certain formulas

that previously were not being released by customs. Good job whoever you are!

 

Geoff

 

, Al Stone <al wrote:

>

> As for the xi xin inclusion, that's unknown. It's one of those aristilochic

> acid herbs, right?

>

> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 8:04 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

>

> > I'm looking for a GMP certified herb company that carries classical pill

> > formulations

> > from the Shang han za bing lun: Shang han lun and Jin gui yao lue.

> >

> > Looking for formulas, such as

> > Chai hu gui zhi wan

> > Li zhong wan

> > Ban xia xie xin wan

> > Gui zhi jia long gu mu li wan

> > Dang gui si ni wan (with the xi xin in it)

> >

>

>

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

KPC carries all of these in either tables or capsules. I think you can

forget about finding anything with xi xin.

 

 

 

Bart Paulding

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of john

kokko

Thursday, May 14, 2009 8:05 AM

Chinese Medicine ;

 

Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui pills

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

I'm looking for a GMP certified herb company that carries classical pill

formulations

from the Shang han za bing lun: Shang han lun and Jin gui yao lue.

 

Looking for formulas, such as

Chai hu gui zhi wan

Li zhong wan

Ban xia xie xin wan

Gui zhi jia long gu mu li wan

Dang gui si ni wan (with the xi xin in it)

 

Sun ten, Qualiherbs, KPC carries the concentrated granules.

Looking for pills/ capsules.

 

Thanks.

 

--

 

Turtle Island Integrative Health

 

 

TCM Review director

CA State Board Prep Courses

www.tcmreview.com

 

 

[Guest guest]

Spring wind will prepare SHL formulas with xi xin that has been

certified to be free of aristolochic acid, such as dang gui si ni san.

 

 

On May 14, 2009, at 9:08 AM, GBP wrote:

 

>

>

> KPC carries all of these in either tables or capsules. I think you can

> forget about finding anything with xi xin.

>

> Bart Paulding

>

> Chinese Medicine

> Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of

> john

> kokko

> Thursday, May 14, 2009 8:05 AM

> Chinese Medicine ;

>

> Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui pills

>

> Hi all,

>

> I'm looking for a GMP certified herb company that carries classical

> pill

> formulations

> from the Shang han za bing lun: Shang han lun and Jin gui yao lue.

>

> Looking for formulas, such as

> Chai hu gui zhi wan

> Li zhong wan

> Ban xia xie xin wan

> Gui zhi jia long gu mu li wan

> Dang gui si ni wan (with the xi xin in it)

>

> Sun ten, Qualiherbs, KPC carries the concentrated granules.

> Looking for pills/ capsules.

>

> Thanks.

>

> --

>

> Turtle Island Integrative Health

>

>

> TCM Review director

> CA State Board Prep Courses

> www.tcmreview.com

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kokko,

 

Have you talked to KPC, Spring Wind, and/or Crane Herbs about encapsulations of

these formulas? Although I don't remember the exact figure, as I recall

encapsulations of powdered formulas are fairly reasonable.

 

 

 

Ben

 

 

 

 

ozark.canuck

Thu, 14 May 2009 23:07:23 +0000

Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui pills

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting to note that some Ma Huang is showing up again in certain formulas

that previously were not being released by customs. Good job whoever you are!

 

Geoff

 

, Al Stone <al wrote:

>

> As for the xi xin inclusion, that's unknown. It's one of those aristilochic

> acid herbs, right?

>

> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 8:04 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

>

> > I'm looking for a GMP certified herb company that carries classical pill

> > formulations

> > from the Shang han za bing lun: Shang han lun and Jin gui yao lue.

> >

> > Looking for formulas, such as

> > Chai hu gui zhi wan

> > Li zhong wan

> > Ban xia xie xin wan

> > Gui zhi jia long gu mu li wan

> > Dang gui si ni wan (with the xi xin in it)

> >

>

>

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear group,

 

I find this case absurb <<formulas with xi xin that has been certified to be

free of aristolochic acid>>.

 

As we know, some medicinals contain toxic properties that needed to be

controlled. All medicinals carry certain pharmaceutical properties and that is

what they are. Aristolochic acid works like magic when treating impediment or

wind-damp condition, although it is not a common practice discussing

pharmaceuticals when prescribing formulas. Taken away certain pharmaceutical

components from certain herbs are going too far. We may just as well not use it

totally.

 

Who wants a piece of French cheese without taste or lavender without flavor? It

is not uncommon that my patients show me the western medication they are on,

from diabetics to glomerulonephrit, with a large print of POISON on the pack.

Overuse of Vitamin A will send us to ER immediately for liver poisoning.

 

SUNG, Yuk-ming

[Guest guest]

Dr. Sung,

Spring Wind does not process its xi xin in any way. Apparently

aristolochic acid occurs only in some specimens of the herb,

therefore can be tested for content of the substance. (There are

several asarums used as xi xin). It is not a major constituent of the

herb, as with guang fang ji or other aristolochias. I agree that

removing active ingredients (which may be toxic) from herbs may be

absurd, however, aristolochic acid is a serious issue. I was asked my

opinion on a case by a state board of health (not California where I

live) where there was serious kidney damage caused by an herbal

product with a high count of this substance.

 

I'd rather have aristolochic acid/free xi xin than no xi xin at

all. Many Shang Han/Jin Gui formulas rely on this medicinal, and I

find it indispensable. I also never want to risk the health of my

patients, so I am glad that Spring Wind provides this service.

 

Finally, one can make the argument that pao zhi or herbal

processing is largely designed to reduce or eliminate toxicity, as

with fu zi or ban xia.

 

 

On May 14, 2009, at 6:32 PM, sxm2649 wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear group,

>

> I find this case absurb <<formulas with xi xin that has been

> certified to be free of aristolochic acid>>.

>

> As we know, some medicinals contain toxic properties that needed to

> be controlled. All medicinals carry certain pharmaceutical

> properties and that is what they are. Aristolochic acid works like

> magic when treating impediment or wind-damp condition, although it

> is not a common practice discussing pharmaceuticals when prescribing

> formulas. Taken away certain pharmaceutical components from certain

> herbs are going too far. We may just as well not use it totally.

>

> Who wants a piece of French cheese without taste or lavender without

> flavor? It is not uncommon that my patients show me the western

> medication they are on, from diabetics to glomerulonephrit, with a

> large print of POISON on the pack. Overuse of Vitamin A will send us

> to ER immediately for liver poisoning.

>

> SUNG, Yuk-ming

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi YukMing and all:

 

--YM-

 

Who wants a piece of French cheese without...

---

 

I'm sure I wasn't the only one who thought you were going to say something else

at this point.

 

But jokes aside, I would rather see accurate and honest risk analyses rather

than the assumption that xi xin species with aritolochoic acids are any more

dangerous than crossing the street (which, I hear, can be completely fatal).

But that's just another task on my collaboration list... real risk analyses.

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

 

 

 

I find this case absurb <<formulas with xi xin that has been certified to be

free of aristolochic acid>>.

 

As we know, some medicinals contain toxic properties that needed to be

controlled. All medicinals carry certain pharmaceutical properties and that is

what they are. Aristolochic acid works like magic when treating impediment or

wind-damp condition, although it is not a common practice discussing

pharmaceuticals when prescribing formulas. Taken away certain pharmaceutical

components from certain herbs are going too far. We may just as well not use it

totally.

 

 

taste or lavender without flavor? It is not uncommon that my patients show me

the western medication they are on, from diabetics to glomerulonephrit, with a

large print of POISON on the pack. Overuse of Vitamin A will send us to ER

immediately for liver poisoning.

 

SUNG, Yuk-ming

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Z'ev.

 

I don't exactly agree because, as I wrote to YukMing, I would rather see

appropriate risk analyses made before consenting to the banning of aristolochic

acid. We must also wonder about the banning of Xi Xin w/ aristolochic acid when,

if conducting a more realistic analysis of risk, it is realised that the truly

dangerous chemical in Xi Xin is safrole, which must be cooked out. Safrole is as

dangerous an ingredient with a listed LD50 in mice of 1.2 ml per kg versus

Mercuric Sulphide's 12.1 grams per kg and from 56 milligrams to 2 grams per kg

for aristolochic acid.

 

 

The real issue here, I suspect, is not about the banning of chemicals or herbs,

but rather *who* does the banning. We should, of course. Not WM.

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<zrosenbe

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, 14 May, 2009 22:03:44

Re: Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui pills

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. Sung,

Spring Wind does not process its xi xin in any way. Apparently

aristolochic acid occurs only in some specimens of the herb,

therefore can be tested for content of the substance. (There are

several asarums used as xi xin). It is not a major constituent of the

herb, as with guang fang ji or other aristolochias. I agree that

removing active ingredients (which may be toxic) from herbs may be

absurd, however, aristolochic acid is a serious issue. I was asked my

opinion on a case by a state board of health (not California where I

live) where there was serious kidney damage caused by an herbal

product with a high count of this substance.

 

I'd rather have aristolochic acid/free xi xin than no xi xin at

all. Many Shang Han/Jin Gui formulas rely on this medicinal, and I

find it indispensable. I also never want to risk the health of my

patients, so I am glad that Spring Wind provides this service.

 

Finally, one can make the argument that pao zhi or herbal

processing is largely designed to reduce or eliminate toxicity, as

with fu zi or ban xia.

 

 

On May 14, 2009, at 6:32 PM, sxm2649 wrote:

 

>

>

> Dear group,

>

> I find this case absurb <<formulas with xi xin that has been

> certified to be free of aristolochic acid>>.

>

> As we know, some medicinals contain toxic properties that needed to

> be controlled. All medicinals carry certain pharmaceutical

> properties and that is what they are. Aristolochic acid works like

> magic when treating impediment or wind-damp condition, although it

> is not a common practice discussing pharmaceuticals when prescribing

> formulas. Taken away certain pharmaceutical components from certain

> herbs are going too far. We may just as well not use it totally.

>

> Who wants a piece of French cheese without taste or lavender without

> flavor? It is not uncommon that my patients show me the western

> medication they are on, from diabetics to glomerulonephrit, with a

> large print of POISON on the pack. Overuse of Vitamin A will send us

> to ER immediately for liver poisoning.

>

> SUNG, Yuk-ming

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes,

I am quite aware of the safrole issue, but this is only an issue

in substitute species of asarum, not the 'mainstream' ones that are

traditionally used. I realize that the AA issue was a reflex issue to

a questionable toxicity issue in a European weight loss 'witches

brew', and don't think it should be banned outright. However, as I

mentioned, I was asked to review a case of kidney damage which

apparently was caused by a stephania/fang ji substitute used in a

formula.

Of course we should have full control over our own medicinals.

But this is the USA, and we are dealing with authorities who know

little or nothing about Chinese medicine.

 

 

On May 14, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

 

>

>

> Hey Z'ev.

>

> I don't exactly agree because, as I wrote to YukMing, I would rather

> see appropriate risk analyses made before consenting to the banning

> of aristolochic acid. We must also wonder about the banning of Xi

> Xin w/ aristolochic acid when, if conducting a more realistic

> analysis of risk, it is realised that the truly dangerous chemical

> in Xi Xin is safrole, which must be cooked out. Safrole is as

> dangerous an ingredient with a listed LD50 in mice of 1.2 ml per kg

> versus Mercuric Sulphide's 12.1 grams per kg and from 56 milligrams

> to 2 grams per kg for aristolochic acid.

>

> The real issue here, I suspect, is not about the banning of

> chemicals or herbs, but rather *who* does the banning. We should, of

> course. Not WM.

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

>

> ________________________________

> <zrosenbe

> Chinese Medicine

> Thursday, 14 May, 2009 22:03:44

> Re: Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui

> pills

>

> Dr. Sung,

> Spring Wind does not process its xi xin in any way. Apparently

> aristolochic acid occurs only in some specimens of the herb,

> therefore can be tested for content of the substance. (There are

> several asarums used as xi xin). It is not a major constituent of the

> herb, as with guang fang ji or other aristolochias. I agree that

> removing active ingredients (which may be toxic) from herbs may be

> absurd, however, aristolochic acid is a serious issue. I was asked my

> opinion on a case by a state board of health (not California where I

> live) where there was serious kidney damage caused by an herbal

> product with a high count of this substance.

>

> I'd rather have aristolochic acid/free xi xin than no xi xin at

> all. Many Shang Han/Jin Gui formulas rely on this medicinal, and I

> find it indispensable. I also never want to risk the health of my

> patients, so I am glad that Spring Wind provides this service.

>

> Finally, one can make the argument that pao zhi or herbal

> processing is largely designed to reduce or eliminate toxicity, as

> with fu zi or ban xia.

>

>

> On May 14, 2009, at 6:32 PM, sxm2649 wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Dear group,

> >

> > I find this case absurb <<formulas with xi xin that has been

> > certified to be free of aristolochic acid>>.

> >

> > As we know, some medicinals contain toxic properties that needed to

> > be controlled. All medicinals carry certain pharmaceutical

> > properties and that is what they are. Aristolochic acid works like

> > magic when treating impediment or wind-damp condition, although it

> > is not a common practice discussing pharmaceuticals when prescribing

> > formulas. Taken away certain pharmaceutical components from certain

> > herbs are going too far. We may just as well not use it totally.

> >

> > Who wants a piece of French cheese without taste or lavender without

> > flavor? It is not uncommon that my patients show me the western

> > medication they are on, from diabetics to glomerulonephrit, with a

> > large print of POISON on the pack. Overuse of Vitamin A will send us

> > to ER immediately for liver poisoning.

> >

> > SUNG, Yuk-ming

> >

> >

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ben,

I used to work at Mayway, who also does custom encapsulations of

concentrated powders as well as KPC, Spring Wind and Crane.

 

When you do custom encapsulations with any company out there,

they charge you a fee per gram or capsule (500 or 650mg caps).

 

I'm looking for standard Shang han za bing lun formulas that are

relatively inexpensive (already prepared - not customized).

 

Some patients don't like the taste of herbs,

so I just want them to comply (hence pills, tablets or capsules).

Otherwise, I can just give them the concentrated powders/ granules.

 

Thanks.

K

 

 

 

 

 

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 9:00 PM, ben zappin <btz23 wrote:

 

>

>

>

> Kokko,

>

> Have you talked to KPC, Spring Wind, and/or Crane Herbs about

> encapsulations of these formulas? Although I don't remember the exact

> figure, as I recall encapsulations of powdered formulas are fairly

> reasonable.

>

> Ben

>

>

> <%40>

> ozark.canuck <ozark.canuck%40gmail.com>

> Thu, 14 May 2009 23:07:23 +0000

> Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui pills

>

>

> Interesting to note that some Ma Huang is showing up again in certain

> formulas that previously were not being released by customs. Good job

> whoever you are!

>

> Geoff

>

> --- In

<%40>,

> Al Stone <al wrote:

> >

> > As for the xi xin inclusion, that's unknown. It's one of those

> aristilochic

> > acid herbs, right?

> >

> > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 8:04 AM, <johnkokko wrote:

> >

> > > I'm looking for a GMP certified herb company that carries classical

> pill

> > > formulations

> > > from the Shang han za bing lun: Shang han lun and Jin gui yao lue.

> > >

> > > Looking for formulas, such as

> > > Chai hu gui zhi wan

> > > Li zhong wan

> > > Ban xia xie xin wan

> > > Gui zhi jia long gu mu li wan

> > > Dang gui si ni wan (with the xi xin in it)

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > , DAOM

> > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

KPC carries tablets or capsules as well if you ask for them.

 

Christine

 

 

 

 

Christine W Chang, DAOM, LAc.,

BOD & Chair of Suppliers Committee

(AAAOM)

American Association of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine

310-951-8698 (cell)

 

" I think, therefore I am. "

NOTICE: The information contained herein is confidential and is intended only

for the use of the individual(s) or entity to which it is addressed. If you are

not the intended recipient, any disclosure, distribution or the taking of any

action in reliance upon this information is prohibited and maybe unlawful. If

you have received this information in error, please notify the sender

immediately and destroy the original information.

[Guest guest]

K

quali has all the rx in caps as well as powder

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Z'ev and all:

 

Kidney damage and so on are unavoidable parts of practicing medcine that we

work to reduce, but we cannot reduce anything to 0%. What can you tell us about

the frequency or rate of damage to kidneys or other organs via (chinese) herbs?

Is it a real danger?

As for your second point, I wonder if it would help for our profession to start

considering itself as authoritative. Kowtowing to the wrong people for the wrong

reasons won't ever help us I think.

 

Hugo

 

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<zrosenbe

Chinese Medicine

Friday, 15 May, 2009 0:08:56

Re: Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui pills

 

 

 

 

 

Yes,

I am quite aware of the safrole issue, but this is only an issue

in substitute species of asarum, not the 'mainstream' ones that are

traditionally used. I realize that the AA issue was a reflex issue to

a questionable toxicity issue in a European weight loss 'witches

brew', and don't think it should be banned outright. However, as I

mentioned, I was asked to review a case of kidney damage which

apparently was caused by a stephania/fang ji substitute used in a

formula.

Of course we should have full control over our own medicinals.

But this is the USA, and we are dealing with authorities who know

little or nothing about Chinese medicine.

 

 

On May 14, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

 

>

>

> Hey Z'ev.

>

> I don't exactly agree because, as I wrote to YukMing, I would rather

> see appropriate risk analyses made before consenting to the banning

> of aristolochic acid. We must also wonder about the banning of Xi

> Xin w/ aristolochic acid when, if conducting a more realistic

> analysis of risk, it is realised that the truly dangerous chemical

> in Xi Xin is safrole, which must be cooked out. Safrole is as

> dangerous an ingredient with a listed LD50 in mice of 1.2 ml per kg

> versus Mercuric Sulphide's 12.1 grams per kg and from 56 milligrams

> to 2 grams per kg for aristolochic acid.

>

> The real issue here, I suspect, is not about the banning of

> chemicals or herbs, but rather *who* does the banning. We should, of

> course. Not WM.

>

> Hugo

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

>

> Thursday, 14 May, 2009 22:03:44

> Re: Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui

> pills

>

> Dr. Sung,

> Spring Wind does not process its xi xin in any way. Apparently

> aristolochic acid occurs only in some specimens of the herb,

> therefore can be tested for content of the substance. (There are

> several asarums used as xi xin). It is not a major constituent of the

> herb, as with guang fang ji or other aristolochias. I agree that

> removing active ingredients (which may be toxic) from herbs may be

> absurd, however, aristolochic acid is a serious issue. I was asked my

> opinion on a case by a state board of health (not California where I

> live) where there was serious kidney damage caused by an herbal

> product with a high count of this substance.

>

> I'd rather have aristolochic acid/free xi xin than no xi xin at

> all. Many Shang Han/Jin Gui formulas rely on this medicinal, and I

> find it indispensable. I also never want to risk the health of my

> patients, so I am glad that Spring Wind provides this service.

>

> Finally, one can make the argument that pao zhi or herbal

> processing is largely designed to reduce or eliminate toxicity, as

> with fu zi or ban xia.

>

>

> On May 14, 2009, at 6:32 PM, sxm2649 wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Dear group,

> >

> > I find this case absurb <<formulas with xi xin that has been

> > certified to be free of aristolochic acid>>.

> >

> > As we know, some medicinals contain toxic properties that needed to

> > be controlled. All medicinals carry certain pharmaceutical

> > properties and that is what they are. Aristolochic acid works like

> > magic when treating impediment or wind-damp condition, although it

> > is not a common practice discussing pharmaceuticals when prescribing

> > formulas. Taken away certain pharmaceutical components from certain

> > herbs are going too far. We may just as well not use it totally.

> >

> > Who wants a piece of French cheese without taste or lavender without

> > flavor? It is not uncommon that my patients show me the western

> > medication they are on, from diabetics to glomerulonephrit, with a

> > large print of POISON on the pack. Overuse of Vitamin A will send us

> > to ER immediately for liver poisoning.

> >

> > SUNG, Yuk-ming

> >

> >

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

>

>

[Guest guest]

" I realize that the AA issue was a reflex issue to

a questionable toxicity issue in a European weight loss 'witches

brew', and don't think it should be banned outright. "

Zev

not complete, we have cases in the US of K failure in patients using US made

formulas by at least on LAc i know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hugo,

I don't know how we got from 'there' to 'here'. I simply replied

to Dr. Sung that aristolochic acid-free xi xin was not some sort of

chemical removal, but that there are several species of asarum used as

the medicinal 'xi xin'. Many have no aristolochic acid, and only the

low-grade substitutes have safrole, a cancer-causing chemical. I

agree we should have authority over our own medicines and delivery

systems, but we are not there yet for a complex set of reasons.

 

By the way, the particular institution examining the kidney damage

case was very sympathetic of Chinese medicine. In my opinion, the

particular herb company was at fault for not examining its herbs

carefully, and for using very powerful herbs without adequate

preparation to reduce toxicity. That's all I want to say about the

matter.

 

 

On May 15, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi Z'ev and all:

>

> Kidney damage and so on are unavoidable parts of practicing medcine

> that we work to reduce, but we cannot reduce anything to 0%. What

> can you tell us about the frequency or rate of damage to kidneys or

> other organs via (chinese) herbs? Is it a real danger?

> As for your second point, I wonder if it would help for our

> profession to start considering itself as authoritative. Kowtowing

> to the wrong people for the wrong reasons won't ever help us I think.

>

> Hugo

>

> ________________________________

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

> http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

>

> ________________________________

> <zrosenbe

> Chinese Medicine

> Friday, 15 May, 2009 0:08:56

> Re: Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui

> pills

>

> Yes,

> I am quite aware of the safrole issue, but this is only an issue

> in substitute species of asarum, not the 'mainstream' ones that are

> traditionally used. I realize that the AA issue was a reflex issue to

> a questionable toxicity issue in a European weight loss 'witches

> brew', and don't think it should be banned outright. However, as I

> mentioned, I was asked to review a case of kidney damage which

> apparently was caused by a stephania/fang ji substitute used in a

> formula.

> Of course we should have full control over our own medicinals.

> But this is the USA, and we are dealing with authorities who know

> little or nothing about Chinese medicine.

>

>

> On May 14, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hey Z'ev.

> >

> > I don't exactly agree because, as I wrote to YukMing, I would rather

> > see appropriate risk analyses made before consenting to the banning

> > of aristolochic acid. We must also wonder about the banning of Xi

> > Xin w/ aristolochic acid when, if conducting a more realistic

> > analysis of risk, it is realised that the truly dangerous chemical

> > in Xi Xin is safrole, which must be cooked out. Safrole is as

> > dangerous an ingredient with a listed LD50 in mice of 1.2 ml per kg

> > versus Mercuric Sulphide's 12.1 grams per kg and from 56 milligrams

> > to 2 grams per kg for aristolochic acid.

> >

> > The real issue here, I suspect, is not about the banning of

> > chemicals or herbs, but rather *who* does the banning. We should, of

> > course. Not WM.

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

> >

> > Thursday, 14 May, 2009 22:03:44

> > Re: Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui

> > pills

> >

> > Dr. Sung,

> > Spring Wind does not process its xi xin in any way. Apparently

> > aristolochic acid occurs only in some specimens of the herb,

> > therefore can be tested for content of the substance. (There are

> > several asarums used as xi xin). It is not a major constituent of

> the

> > herb, as with guang fang ji or other aristolochias. I agree that

> > removing active ingredients (which may be toxic) from herbs may be

> > absurd, however, aristolochic acid is a serious issue. I was asked

> my

> > opinion on a case by a state board of health (not California where I

> > live) where there was serious kidney damage caused by an herbal

> > product with a high count of this substance.

> >

> > I'd rather have aristolochic acid/free xi xin than no xi xin at

> > all. Many Shang Han/Jin Gui formulas rely on this medicinal, and I

> > find it indispensable. I also never want to risk the health of my

> > patients, so I am glad that Spring Wind provides this service.

> >

> > Finally, one can make the argument that pao zhi or herbal

> > processing is largely designed to reduce or eliminate toxicity, as

> > with fu zi or ban xia.

> >

> >

> > On May 14, 2009, at 6:32 PM, sxm2649 wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear group,

> > >

> > > I find this case absurb <<formulas with xi xin that has been

> > > certified to be free of aristolochic acid>>.

> > >

> > > As we know, some medicinals contain toxic properties that needed

> to

> > > be controlled. All medicinals carry certain pharmaceutical

> > > properties and that is what they are. Aristolochic acid works like

> > > magic when treating impediment or wind-damp condition, although it

> > > is not a common practice discussing pharmaceuticals when

> prescribing

> > > formulas. Taken away certain pharmaceutical components from

> certain

> > > herbs are going too far. We may just as well not use it totally.

> > >

> > > Who wants a piece of French cheese without taste or lavender

> without

> > > flavor? It is not uncommon that my patients show me the western

> > > medication they are on, from diabetics to glomerulonephrit, with a

> > > large print of POISON on the pack. Overuse of Vitamin A will

> send us

> > > to ER immediately for liver poisoning.

> > >

> > > SUNG, Yuk-ming

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hugo and Z'ev,

 

This dialogue happened back in 1998-99 and was actually resolved in CM language

journals in the 1980s. Hugo and Dr. Sung are correct if you read the 1980s

literature produced on this topic in Chinese language journals. The German and

Japanese studies at that time referenced Chinese Herbal Nephritis (CHN) as the

cause of the kidney injury. CHN was a term coined by the Chinese language

literature of the 1980s (!!!). You'll need to sit next to your favorite Chinese

language expert, maybe Professor Sabine Wilms, and cruise the Chinese language

literature on-line or in print. The Chinese literature of the 1980s showed that

all of the herbs that may contain AA if used correctly in formulas and applied

to patients correctly according to the traditional protocols of CM have no

kidney injury as a side effect. It's the misuse of the herbs as Dr. Sung has

suggested.

 

The German language literature of the 1990s found the mechanism of injury. They

showed that purified aristolochic acid delivered in high concentration to mouse

kidney convoluted duct tissues in high concentration caused thickening of the

underlying basement membrane only after 3 to 4 months of daily application.

It's no wonder that real CM herbal formulas used carefully according to

protocols never found any injurious side effects. Apparently, Z'ev, you are

correct in assuming that the correct use of these formulas using Clematis

species and others is essential in resolving conditions cited.

 

If you now go to http://www.cardiab.com/content/4/1/9 you will see a review

paper euphemistically entitled " The Matrix Preloaded " . You will see that the

endothelial membrane thickening of the kidney's tubules (as well as macular

degeneration and lower extremity injury in diabetic lower extremities) is quite

similar. As a pathos-physiologist at the center of the AA storm of 1998-99, I

became fascinated by the endothelial matrix changes of diabetics. This same

PubMed Central open access (full free text) site has as it's original paper the

very mechanism in diabetics of basement membrane thickening. See:

http://www.cardiab.com/content/1/1/1 The people who were injured by AA wanted

to address their metabolic syndrome (Syndrome X) issues. Seem like Nature is

flogging us with information if we have a moment to read the literature from the

Chinese language in the 1980s as well as from PubMed Central in year 2009.

 

I think both Hugo and Dr. Sung are practicing real Chinese medicine with their

thinking. I think you are too, Z'ev, if you choose to insist that the classic

treatment protocols are correct and without injury.

 

As a fairly illiterate person beyond Western science, I'm lucky to sit every day

with Chinese language scientists who read both CM and Western science literature

in the Chinese language journals. I had to be the one to speak directly with

Robert Moore (FDA chief - supplements) on this issue. He read the riot act to

me in 1999 using my own words that I spoke to him in 1998. I said nothing other

than thank you, bowed deeply and said I would carry out his directives of noting

the correct species.

 

Gratefully,

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Z'ev:

 

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I was just following a stream of consciousness on

the topic.

 

The only question I really have regards numbers of people injured via herbs.

It's important information I think.

Thanks,

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

<zrosenbe

Chinese Medicine

Friday, 15 May, 2009 15:08:51

Re: Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui pills

 

 

 

 

 

Hugo,

I don't know how we got from 'there' to 'here'. I simply replied

to Dr. Sung that aristolochic acid-free xi xin was not some sort of

chemical removal, but that there are several species of asarum used as

the medicinal 'xi xin'. Many have no aristolochic acid, and only the

low-grade substitutes have safrole, a cancer-causing chemical. I

agree we should have authority over our own medicines and delivery

systems, but we are not there yet for a complex set of reasons.

 

By the way, the particular institution examining the kidney damage

case was very sympathetic of Chinese medicine. In my opinion, the

particular herb company was at fault for not examining its herbs

carefully, and for using very powerful herbs without adequate

preparation to reduce toxicity. That's all I want to say about the

matter.

 

 

On May 15, 2009, at 11:34 AM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi Z'ev and all:

>

> Kidney damage and so on are unavoidable parts of practicing medcine

> that we work to reduce, but we cannot reduce anything to 0%. What

> can you tell us about the frequency or rate of damage to kidneys or

> other organs via (chinese) herbs? Is it a real danger?

> As for your second point, I wonder if it would help for our

> profession to start considering itself as authoritative. Kowtowing

> to the wrong people for the wrong reasons won't ever help us I think.

>

> Hugo

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> Hugo Ramiro

> http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

>

> ____________ _________ _________ __

> <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

>

> Friday, 15 May, 2009 0:08:56

> Re: Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui

> pills

>

> Yes,

> I am quite aware of the safrole issue, but this is only an issue

> in substitute species of asarum, not the 'mainstream' ones that are

> traditionally used. I realize that the AA issue was a reflex issue to

> a questionable toxicity issue in a European weight loss 'witches

> brew', and don't think it should be banned outright. However, as I

> mentioned, I was asked to review a case of kidney damage which

> apparently was caused by a stephania/fang ji substitute used in a

> formula.

> Of course we should have full control over our own medicinals.

> But this is the USA, and we are dealing with authorities who know

> little or nothing about Chinese medicine.

>

>

> On May 14, 2009, at 9:01 PM, Hugo Ramiro wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hey Z'ev.

> >

> > I don't exactly agree because, as I wrote to YukMing, I would rather

> > see appropriate risk analyses made before consenting to the banning

> > of aristolochic acid. We must also wonder about the banning of Xi

> > Xin w/ aristolochic acid when, if conducting a more realistic

> > analysis of risk, it is realised that the truly dangerous chemical

> > in Xi Xin is safrole, which must be cooked out. Safrole is as

> > dangerous an ingredient with a listed LD50 in mice of 1.2 ml per kg

> > versus Mercuric Sulphide's 12.1 grams per kg and from 56 milligrams

> > to 2 grams per kg for aristolochic acid.

> >

> > The real issue here, I suspect, is not about the banning of

> > chemicals or herbs, but rather *who* does the banning. We should, of

> > course. Not WM.

> >

> > Hugo

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > Hugo Ramiro

> > http://middlemedici ne.wordpress. com

> > http://www.chinesem edicaltherapies. org

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > <zrosenbe (AT) san (DOT) rr.com>

> >

> > Thursday, 14 May, 2009 22:03:44

> > Re: Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui

> > pills

> >

> > Dr. Sung,

> > Spring Wind does not process its xi xin in any way. Apparently

> > aristolochic acid occurs only in some specimens of the herb,

> > therefore can be tested for content of the substance. (There are

> > several asarums used as xi xin). It is not a major constituent of

> the

> > herb, as with guang fang ji or other aristolochias. I agree that

> > removing active ingredients (which may be toxic) from herbs may be

> > absurd, however, aristolochic acid is a serious issue. I was asked

> my

> > opinion on a case by a state board of health (not California where I

> > live) where there was serious kidney damage caused by an herbal

> > product with a high count of this substance.

> >

> > I'd rather have aristolochic acid/free xi xin than no xi xin at

> > all. Many Shang Han/Jin Gui formulas rely on this medicinal, and I

> > find it indispensable. I also never want to risk the health of my

> > patients, so I am glad that Spring Wind provides this service.

> >

> > Finally, one can make the argument that pao zhi or herbal

> > processing is largely designed to reduce or eliminate toxicity, as

> > with fu zi or ban xia.

> >

> >

> > On May 14, 2009, at 6:32 PM, sxm2649 wrote:

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear group,

> > >

> > > I find this case absurb <<formulas with xi xin that has been

> > > certified to be free of aristolochic acid>>.

> > >

> > > As we know, some medicinals contain toxic properties that needed

> to

> > > be controlled. All medicinals carry certain pharmaceutical

> > > properties and that is what they are. Aristolochic acid works like

> > > magic when treating impediment or wind-damp condition, although it

> > > is not a common practice discussing pharmaceuticals when

> prescribing

> > > formulas. Taken away certain pharmaceutical components from

> certain

> > > herbs are going too far. We may just as well not use it totally.

> > >

> > > Who wants a piece of French cheese without taste or lavender

> without

> > > flavor? It is not uncommon that my patients show me the western

> > > medication they are on, from diabetics to glomerulonephrit, with a

> > > large print of POISON on the pack. Overuse of Vitamin A will

> send us

> > > to ER immediately for liver poisoning.

> > >

> > > SUNG, Yuk-ming

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel,

This is very helpful. Thank you as always for the information you

provide . . .

 

 

On May 15, 2009, at 5:19 PM, Emmanuel Segmen wrote:

 

>

>

> Hugo and Z'ev,

>

> This dialogue happened back in 1998-99 and was actually resolved in

> CM language journals in the 1980s. Hugo and Dr. Sung are correct if

> you read the 1980s literature produced on this topic in Chinese

> language journals. The German and Japanese studies at that time

> referenced Chinese Herbal Nephritis (CHN) as the cause of the kidney

> injury. CHN was a term coined by the Chinese language literature of

> the 1980s (!!!). You'll need to sit next to your favorite Chinese

> language expert, maybe Professor Sabine Wilms, and cruise the

> Chinese language literature on-line or in print. The Chinese

> literature of the 1980s showed that all of the herbs that may

> contain AA if used correctly in formulas and applied to patients

> correctly according to the traditional protocols of CM have no

> kidney injury as a side effect. It's the misuse of the herbs as Dr.

> Sung has suggested.

>

> The German language literature of the 1990s found the mechanism of

> injury. They showed that purified aristolochic acid delivered in

> high concentration to mouse kidney convoluted duct tissues in high

> concentration caused thickening of the underlying basement membrane

> only after 3 to 4 months of daily application. It's no wonder that

> real CM herbal formulas used carefully according to protocols never

> found any injurious side effects. Apparently, Z'ev, you are correct

> in assuming that the correct use of these formulas using Clematis

> species and others is essential in resolving conditions cited.

>

> If you now go to http://www.cardiab.com/content/4/1/9 you will see a

> review paper euphemistically entitled " The Matrix Preloaded " . You

> will see that the endothelial membrane thickening of the kidney's

> tubules (as well as macular degeneration and lower extremity injury

> in diabetic lower extremities) is quite similar. As a pathos-

> physiologist at the center of the AA storm of 1998-99, I became

> fascinated by the endothelial matrix changes of diabetics. This same

> PubMed Central open access (full free text) site has as it's

> original paper the very mechanism in diabetics of basement membrane

> thickening. See: http://www.cardiab.com/content/1/1/1 The people who

> were injured by AA wanted to address their metabolic syndrome

> (Syndrome X) issues. Seem like Nature is flogging us with

> information if we have a moment to read the literature from the

> Chinese language in the 1980s as well as from PubMed Central in year

> 2009.

>

> I think both Hugo and Dr. Sung are practicing real Chinese medicine

> with their thinking. I think you are too, Z'ev, if you choose to

> insist that the classic treatment protocols are correct and without

> injury.

>

> As a fairly illiterate person beyond Western science, I'm lucky to

> sit every day with Chinese language scientists who read both CM and

> Western science literature in the Chinese language journals. I had

> to be the one to speak directly with Robert Moore (FDA chief -

> supplements) on this issue. He read the riot act to me in 1999 using

> my own words that I spoke to him in 1998. I said nothing other than

> thank you, bowed deeply and said I would carry out his directives of

> noting the correct species.

>

> Gratefully,

>

> Emmanuel Segmen

>

>

[Guest guest]

Mr Rosenberg & all,

 

Thanks for taking time to explain to us about Spring Wind¡¦s user-friendly

option of aristolochic acid-free xi xin granule. I did a quick research of this

herb and there are 3 kinds of xi xin: the whole grass of Asarum heternotropoides

Fr. Varmandshuricum (Maxim.)Kitag, Asarum sieboldii Miq. Var. seoulesense Nakai,

and Asarum sieboldii Miq. Their chief ingredients are methyl eugenol,

£\-pinene,£]-pinene, safrole, wstragole, asarone, limonene. And the root

contains norepinephrine aconitine.

 

As far as its side effect, it indicates that it has ¡¥some toxic effect on the

liver, especially for those with renal failure¡¦. For long-term animal lab test,

1% of the safrole within the volatile oil of xi xin can cause 28% of liver

cancer in mice after 2 yrs. 0.1% can cause liver tumor especially when the

dietaries in lack of Vit B2 and E.

 

Here is my points.

 

1 As a clinician, I usually prescribe 10 to 12 ingredients and xi xin is just

1/10-18 ingredients. It seems the issue is not significant to me especially all

tcm students are taught (there is a saying) do not use more than 3g of xi xin.

 

2 Deliberately single out some pharmaceutical ingredients from any particular

of herbs are never heard by me. It may not make sense financially. Most

important of all, it is not Chinese medicine. We have a colloquial saying in

Cantonese dialogue ¡¥wanting the baby but abandon (dump) the mother¡¦.

 

3 For those with renal failure¡]I hope not serious), I guess we can complement

and balance the prescriptions by prescribing other ingredients. It is called

formulation. Are we going to treat renal failure patients? To what extent the

kidney are damaged we identify as such patients. Where is the basic principle of

'pattern identification'?

 

4 Who will take xi xin for 2 yrs daily? Besides, human body needs a larger

dosage to show the results. Taken all these into considerations, I really care

less about which ingredients are singled out. My question for Mr Rosengberg is:

have you compared the results of these two products in significant numbers of

patients and making it ¡¥scientific¡¦. All members here will benefit from your

genuine findings and makes this discussion worthwhile.

 

Thanks Hugo for his suggestions. He always has some insightful questions. I

guess WM are in driving seat and enforces regulations. The only thing that keep

vivid and convincing is clinical efficacy.

 

SUNG, Yuk-ming

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel,

 

 

 

I don¡¯t know if the AA issue is completely resolved. There have been

several deaths in Taiwan in recent years which have been connected to

Chinese herbal medicine. I believe there are still controversies surrounding

this matter.

 

 

 

This is the abstract of a paper called ¡°Prescription profile of potentially

aristolochic acid containing Chinese herbal products:

 

an analysis of National Health Insurance data in Taiwan between 1997 and

2003¡± http://www.cmjournal.org/content/3/1/13

 

 

 

Abstract

 

Background Some Chinese herbal products (CHPs) may contain aristolochic acid

(AA) or may be

 

adulterated by the herbs suspected of containing AA which is nephrotoxic and

carcinogenic. This study aims

 

to identify the risk and the prescription profile of AA-containing CHPs

(AA-CHPs) in Taiwan. Methods A

 

longitudinal analysis was conducted on a randomly sampled cohort of 200,000

patients using the data from

 

the National Health Insurance (NHI) in Taiwan between 1997 and 2003. Results

During the 7-year study

 

period, 78,644 patients were prescribed with AA-CHPs; most patients were

females, or middle-aged, or both.

 

A total of 526,867 prescriptions were made to use 1,218 licensed AA-CHPs.

Over 85% of the AA-exposed

 

patients took less than 60g of AA-herbs; however, about 7% were exposed to a

cumulated dose of over 100g

 

of Radix et Rhizoma Asari (Xixin), Caulis Akebiae (Mutong) or Fructus

Aristolochiae (Madouling). Patients

 

of respiratory and musculoskeletal diseases received most of the AA-CHP

prescriptions. The most frequently

 

prescribed AA-CHPs Shujing Huoxie Tang, Chuanqiong Chadiao San and Longdan

Xiegan Tang, containing

 

Radix Stephaniae Tetrandrae, Radix et Rhizoma Asari and Caulis Akebiae

respectively. Conclusion About

 

one-third of people in Taiwan have been prescribed with AA-CHPs between 1997

and 2003. Although the

 

cumulated doses were not large, further actions should be carried out to

ensure the safe use of AA-CHPs.

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that the AA issue is one of the reasons why it is not easy to draw

borders between Western and Chinese medicine. We do not have the instruments

or diagnostic abilities to find, for example, a brain tumour or meningitis,

or kidney damage for that matter. As much as I don¡¯t like being regulated

to the extreme, I do think that we should be cautious in demanding our

rights to diagnose. I think that I believe a check-up with a western medical

doctor or specialist should be the norm. I also do think that this will

become the norm once Chinese medicine becomes more popular around Europe.

 

 

 

Kidney damage by Chinese herbs is still a real issue and we cannot just

ignore it. We need very good identification of herbs and people that

knowingly switch herbs for individual profits should be severely punished.

People like Mazin Al-Khafaji regularly test their patients for liver

toxicity and once in a while there is a patient who reacts badly to the

herbs.

 

 

 

I don¡¯t have the answer as to where western medicine ends and Chinese

medicine begins, but I often think about this question. What do you people

think about this?

 

 

 

For those that are interested, here¡¯s a list of recent research published

in China on AA.

 

 

 

1

 

Protective Effects of Yishen Ruanjian Power on Renal Interstitial Fibrosis

in Chronic Aristolochic Acid Induced Nephropathy Rat Model [ÒæÄIÜ›ˆÔÉ¢Œ¦ÂýÐÔ

ñR¶µâËáÄI²¡´óÊóÄ£ÐÍÄIégÙ|Àw¾S»¯µÄ±£×o×÷ÓÃ]; ˆÂ”¡¢ÖRÙO象¢—î©·¼¡¢¶­ø™Èð¡¢

ZHANG Cong¡¢CHEN Yi-pu¡¢YANG Yan-fang; CHINESE JOURNAL OF INTEGRATED

TRADITIONAL AND WESTERN MEDICINE [ÖЇøÖÐÎ÷át½YºÏësÖ¾]; 2005,

Vol.25, & nbspIssue 8

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=46

07215> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Czxyjh/zxyj2005/0508pdf/050810.pdf>

Full Text

 

2

 

ñR¶µâËáÄI²¡ÅR´²Åc²¡Àí·ÖÎö(¸½42Àýˆó¸æ); ühÆG÷¡¢½ªô”ŒŽ¡¢¿×ÐãÕæ¡¢¶­³¿ø™;

JOURNAL OF JINING MEDICAL COLLEGE [úŒŽátŒWÔºŒWˆó]; 2004, Vol.27, & nbspIssue

2

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=45

91591> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Cjnyxyxb/jnyx2004/0402pdf/040227.pdf

> Full Text

 

3

 

Determination of aristolochic acid A in Guanxinsuhe pills by RP-HPLC [·´Ïà¸ß

ЧҺÏàÉ«×V·¨œy¶¨¹ÚÐÄÌKºÏÍèÖÐñR¶µâËáAµÄº¬Á¿]; Íõ¾S¡¢ºú•ÔŸ˜¡¢WANG Wei¡¢HU

Xiao-wei; THE CHINESE JOURNAL OF MODERN APPLIED PHARMACY [ÖЇø¬F´ú‘ªÓÃËŽŒW];

2005, Vol.22, & nbspIssue 4

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=45

53782> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Czgxdyyyx/zgxd2005/0504pdf/050415.pd

f> Full Text

 

4

 

ñR¶µâËáÄI²¡2Àýˆó¸æ; ˆŒšÏ¼¡¢ŒOûϼ¡¢ínÅìÅÈ; CHINESE PRACTICAL JOURNAL OF

RURAL DOCTOR [ÖЇøŒÓÃàl´åátÉúësÖ¾]; 2005, Vol.12, & nbspIssue 8

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=45

53425> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Czgsyxcyszz/zgsy2005/0508pdf/050847.

pdf> Full Text

 

5

 

Noticing the renal damage of the traditional medicine with arisochic acid

[¾¯Ì躬ñR¶µâËáÖÐËŽÒýÆðÄIÅK“pº¦]; ÀîÉÃñ¡¢Li Zemin; DRUG EVALUATION [ËŽÆ·Ôu

ƒr]; 2005, Vol.2, & nbspIssue 2

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=45

50357> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Cyppj/yppj2005/0502pdf/050216.pdf>

Full Text

 

6

 

Effect of concocting and extracting on the content of birthwort acid A in

imprison wood coherent [ÅÚÖƼ°ÌáÈ¡·½·¨Œ¦êPľͨÖÐñR¶µâËáAº¬Á¿µÄÓ°í‘]; ê–‡ø

ƽ¡¢Ô¬ºé¡¢é‚ºê‚¥¡¢üS־܊¡¢×Tø™Òã¡¢…Ǻ£ÈA¡¢YANG Guo-ping¡¢YUAN Hong¡¢L(U)

Hong-wei; JOURNAL OF CENTRAL SOUTH UNIVERSITY (MEDICAL SCIENCES) [ÖÐÄÏ´óŒWŒW

ˆó£¨átŒW°æ£©]; 2005, Vol.30, & nbspIssue 4

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=45

37257> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Chnykdx/hnyk2005/0504pdf/050429.pdf>

Full Text

 

7

 

¸ßЧҺÏàÉ«×V·¨œy¶¨Ö¹¿ÈîwÁ£ÖÐñR¶µâËáAµÄº¬Á¿; ˆÓñÈA; HUBEI JOURNAL OF

TRADITIONAL CHINESE MEDICINE [ºþ±±ÖÐátësÖ¾]; 2005, Vol.27, & nbspIssue 8

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=45

36694> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Chbzyzz/hbzy2005/0508pdf/050837.pdf>

Full Text

 

8

 

HPLC·¨œy¶¨¶þÊ®ÎåζËÉʯÄzÄÒÖÐñR¶µâËáµÄº¬Á¿; ×T¢Ê¯Ñ©ÈØ¡¢—î½ðÃô; JOURNAL OF

CHINESE MEDICINAL MATERIALS [ÖÐËŽ²Ä]; 2005, Vol.28, & nbspIssue 7

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=45

30745> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Czyc/zyc2005/0507pdf/050742.pdf>

Full Text

 

9

 

Study on Chemical Composition and Antioxygenation of Polysaccharide from

Aristolochia fangchi Y.C. Wu ex L. D. Chou et S. M. Hwang [ľ·À¼º¶àÌǵĽM³É

¼°ÆäÇå³ý»îÐÔÑõ×ÔÓÉ»ùµÄ×÷ÓÃ]; —–|¡¢êÆG÷¡¢„¢Êç·Ò¡¢ÕçÅÊ¡¢YANG Hai-dong¡¢

CHEN Yan-mei¡¢LIU Shu-fen; JOURNAL OF HEBEI NORTH UNIVERSITY(MEDICAL

EDITION) [ºÓ±±±±·½ŒWÔºŒWˆó(átŒW°æ)]; 2005, Vol.22, & nbspIssue 2

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=45

00966> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Czjkyxyxb/zjky2005/0502pdf/050203.pd

f> Full Text

 

10

 

ÂýÐÔñR¶µâËáÄI²¡µÄÖÐÎ÷át½YºÏÖίŸ; Ã×½Ü; JOURNAL OF SHANDONG UNIVERSITY OF

TRADITIONAL CHINESE MEDICINE [ɽ–|ÖÐátËŽ´óŒWŒWˆó]; 2005, Vol.29, & nbspIssue

4

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=44

87112> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Csdzyydxxb/sdzy2005/0504pdf/050413.p

df> Full Text

 

11

 

Determination of aristolochic acid A in Yangxue Qingnao Granula by HPLC

[HPLC·¨œy¶¨ðBѪÇåÄXîwÁ£ÖÐñR¶µâËáA]; ¸ßâx¡¢ŒOÓñ‚b¡¢Àî‚¥¡¢ÀîµÂÀ¤¡¢Îº·å¡¢Úwºé

Ö¥¡¢GAO Jun¡¢SUN Yu-xia¡¢LI Wei¡¢LI De-kun¡¢WEI Feng¡¢ZHAO Hong-zhi; CHINESE

TRADITIONAL AND HERBAL DRUGS [ÖвÝËŽ]; 2005, Vol.36, & nbspIssue 6

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=44

71102> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Czcy/zcy2005/0506pdf/050620.pdf>

Full Text

 

12

 

Studies on Biological Characters of Sericinus Montelus [½zŽ§øPµûµÄÉúÎïŒWÌØÐÔ

Ñо¿³õˆó]; Á_Ö¾ÎÄ¡¢ÀîÊÀÕð¡¢Àî´ºØS¡¢ÍôæÃæá¢LUO Zhi-wen¡¢LI Shi-zheng¡¢LI

Chun-feng¡¢WANG Ting-ting; JOURNAL OF JIAMUSI UNIVERSITY (NATURAL SCIENCE

EDITION) [¼Ñľ˹´óŒWŒWˆó£¨×ÔÈ»¿ÆŒW°æ£©]; 2005, Vol.23, & nbspIssue 3

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=44

50883> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Cjmsdxxb/jmsd2005/0503pdf/050332.pdf

> Full Text

 

13

 

Study of the clinico-pathological characters of acute, chronic aristolochic

acid nephropathy and the pathological mechanism [¼±ÂýÐÔñR¶µâËáÄI²¡µÄÅR´²²¡

ÀíÌØüc¼°Æ䲡Àí™CÖÆ]; …ǽܡ¢êÏãÃÀ¡¢ŽŸæiÖù¡¢WU Jie¡¢CHEN Xiang-mei¡¢SHI

Suo-zhu; CHINESE JOURNAL OF LABORATORY MEDICINE [ÖÐÈA™zòžátŒWësÖ¾]; 2005,

Vol.28, & nbspIssue 6

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=44

38292> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Czhyxjy/zhyx2005/0506pdf/050610.pdf>

Full Text

 

14

 

Nephrotoxicity of Aristolochia manshuriensis and aristolochic acids in mice

[êPľͨ¼°ÆäñR¶µâ¿‚ËጦСÊóÄIÅK¶¾ÐÔµÄÑо¿]; ¶¡•Ô˪¡¢ÁºÛÈA¡¢Íõ½ðÈA¡¢Ñ¦Œš

ÔÆ¡¢Ð¤ÓÀ‘c¡¢…Ç×Ó‚¡¢Àî´ºÓ¢¡¢Àîû¡¢ÙRÈØ¡¢»ØßBŠ¡¢„¢±£ÑÓ¡¢DING Xiao-shuang¡¢

LIANG Ai-hua¡¢WANG Jin-hua¡¢XIAO Yong-qing¡¢WU Zi-lun¡¢LI Chun-ying¡¢LI Li¡¢

HE Rong¡¢HUI Lian-qiang¡¢LIU Bao-yan; CHINA JOURNAL OF CHINESE MATERIA

MEDICA [ÖЇøÖÐËŽësÖ¾]; 2005, Vol.30, & nbspIssue 13

View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=44

05292> Full Text

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Czgzyzz/zgzy2005/0513pdf/051317.pdf>

 

 

15

 

Recent Study on Compatibility Reducing Nephrotoxicity of Guanmutong [ÅäÎé½µ

µÍêPľͨÄI¶¾ÐÔµÄÑо¿¬F î]; Àî´ºÏã¡¢Öì•Ô»Ü¡¢¶¡·¼¡¢¹ùÓÀ±ó¡¢ñRÕ÷¡¢Íõ©²©¡¢ºÂ

ÀÙ¡¢LI Chun-xiang¡¢ZHU Xiao-hui¡¢DING Fang; JOURNAL OF HEBEI TRADITIONAL

CHINESE MEDICINE AND PHARMACOLOGY [ºÓ±±ÖÐátËŽŒWˆó]; 2005, Vol.20, & nbspIssue

2

View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=42

65926> Full Text

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Chbzyyxb/hbzy2005/0502pdf/050221.pdf

>

 

16

 

Safety of Radix Stephaniae Tetrandrae and Its Substitute, Radix

Aristolochiae Fangchi [·Û·À¼º¼°ÆäÌæ´úV·À¼ºµÄ°²È«ÐÔÙ|ÒÉ]; ñR¼t÷¡¢ˆ²®¶Y¡¢MA

Hong-mei¡¢ZHANG Bo-li; TIANJIN JOURNAL OF TRADITIONAL CHINESE MEDICINE [Ìì½ò

ÖÐátËŽ]; 2005, Vol.22, & nbspIssue 3

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=42

49236> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Ctjzy/tjzy2005/0503pdf/050332.pdf>

Full Text

 

17

 

Experimental study of the rat renal toxicity of Tripterygium wilfordii,

Caulis aristolochiae and Leonurus [À×¹«ÌÙ¡¢êPľͨ¡¢Òæĸ²ÝŒ¦´óÊóÄI¶¾ÐԵıÈÝ^

Ñо¿]; ŒOÈØ¡¢…ÇÐñ–|¡¢„¢½¨‚¥¡¢ŒOÁá¡¢…ÎûÀò¡¢Sun Rong¡¢Wu Xudong¡¢Liu

Jianwei¡¢Sun Ling¡¢Lv Lili; PHARMACOLOGY AND CLINICS OF CHINESE MATERIA

MEDICA [ÖÐËŽËŽÀíÅcÅR´²]; 2005, Vol.21, & nbspIssue 2

View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=42

27594> Full Text

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Czyylylc/zyyl2005/0502pdf/050212.pdf

>

 

18

 

Effects of tea polyphonel on the levels of Zn, Cu, Mg in kidneys of mice

administrated with aristolochia manshuriensis kom [²è¶à·ÓŒ¦êPľͨËùÖÂСÊóÄI

ÅK“p‚û¼°ä\¡¢ã~¡¢æVº¬Á¿µÄÓ°í‘]; êÙFÁ¼¡¢„¢»ÝÈã¡¢Ò¦ÁÖ¡¢ˆÆGÊç¡¢CHEN

Gui-liang¡¢LIU Hui-ru¡¢YAO Lin; CHINA OCCUPATIONAL MEDICINE [ÖЇøš˜IátŒW];

2005, Vol.32, & nbspIssue 3

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=42

25992> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Czgzyyx/zgzy2005/0503pdf/050310.pdf>

Full Text

 

19

 

Qualitative Determination of Aristolochic Acid Analogues in the Roots of

Aristolochia contorta by HPLC-UV-MS [HPLC-MSÓÃÓÚÖÐËŽñR¶µâÖÐ6·NñR¶µâËáî³É

·ÖµÄ™zœy]; ·܊Õ¡¢ŒOÆG¡¢Îºäh¡¢LU Jun-Zhang¡¢SUN Yan¡¢WEI Feng;

PHARMACEUTICAL JOURNAL OF CHINESE PEOPLE'S LIBERATION ARMY [½â·ÅÜŠËŽŒWŒWˆó];

2005, Vol.21, & nbspIssue 3

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=42

06768> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Cjfjyxxb/jfjy2005/0503pdf/050314.pdf

> Full Text

 

20

 

Studies on Subacute Biochemical Effects of Aristolochic Acid Using 1H NMR

Spectroscopy Combined with Pattern Recognition [ºË´Å¹²Õñ¼¼Ðg½YºÏģʽ×R„eŒ¦ÖÐ

ËŽñR¶µâËᆼ±ÐÔÉú»¯Ð§‘ªµÄÑо¿]; ˆ•ÔÓî¡¢…Ç»ÝØS¡¢Åá·î¿ü¡¢Äß¼ÎÀy¡¢ZHANG

Xiao-Yu¡¢WU Hui-Feng¡¢PEI Feng-Kui¡¢NI Jia-Zuan; CHEMICAL JOURNAL OF CHINESE

UNIVERSITIES [¸ßµÈŒWУ»¯ŒWŒWˆó]; 2005, Vol.26, & nbspIssue 6

 

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/mst.dll?database=qikan & fmt=qikann & op=I & mfn=42

02638> View Abstract

<http://www.wanfangdata.com/wf/%7Ekjqk%5Cgdxxhxxb/gdxx2005/0506pdf/050601.pd

f> Full Text

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tom Verhaeghe

 

Stationsplein 59

 

8770 Ingelmunster

 

www.chinese-geneeskunde.be

 

_____

 

Chinese Medicine

Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Emmanuel

Segmen

zaterdag 16 mei 2009 2:20

Chinese Medicine

Cc: Sabine Wilms

Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui pills

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hugo and Z'ev,

 

This dialogue happened back in 1998-99 and was actually resolved in CM

language journals in the 1980s. Hugo and Dr. Sung are correct if you read

the 1980s literature produced on this topic in Chinese language journals.

The German and Japanese studies at that time referenced Chinese Herbal

Nephritis (CHN) as the cause of the kidney injury. CHN was a term coined by

the Chinese language literature of the 1980s (!!!). You'll need to sit next

to your favorite Chinese language expert, maybe Professor Sabine Wilms, and

cruise the Chinese language literature on-line or in print. The Chinese

literature of the 1980s showed that all of the herbs that may contain AA if

used correctly in formulas and applied to patients correctly according to

the traditional protocols of CM have no kidney injury as a side effect. It's

the misuse of the herbs as Dr. Sung has suggested.

 

The German language literature of the 1990s found the mechanism of injury.

They showed that purified aristolochic acid delivered in high concentration

to mouse kidney convoluted duct tissues in high concentration caused

thickening of the underlying basement membrane only after 3 to 4 months of

daily application. It's no wonder that real CM herbal formulas used

carefully according to protocols never found any injurious side effects.

Apparently, Z'ev, you are correct in assuming that the correct use of these

formulas using Clematis species and others is essential in resolving

conditions cited.

 

If you now go to <http://www.cardiab.com/content/4/1/9> http://www.cardiab.

com/content/4/1/9 you will see a review paper euphemistically entitled " The

Matrix Preloaded " . You will see that the endothelial membrane thickening of

the kidney's tubules (as well as macular degeneration and lower extremity

injury in diabetic lower extremities) is quite similar. As a

pathos-physiologist at the center of the AA storm of 1998-99, I became

fascinated by the endothelial matrix changes of diabetics. This same PubMed

Central open access (full free text) site has as it's original paper the

very mechanism in diabetics of basement membrane thickening. See:

<http://www.cardiab.com/content/1/1/1> http://www.cardiab.com/content/1/1/1

The people who were injured by AA wanted to address their metabolic syndrome

(Syndrome X) issues. Seem like Nature is flogging us with information if we

have a moment to read the literature from the Chinese language in the 1980s

as well as from PubMed Central in year 2009.

 

I think both Hugo and Dr. Sung are practicing real Chinese medicine with

their thinking. I think you are too, Z'ev, if you choose to insist that the

classic treatment protocols are correct and without injury.

 

As a fairly illiterate person beyond Western science, I'm lucky to sit every

day with Chinese language scientists who read both CM and Western science

literature in the Chinese language journals. I had to be the one to speak

directly with Robert Moore (FDA chief - supplements) on this issue. He read

the riot act to me in 1999 using my own words that I spoke to him in 1998. I

said nothing other than thank you, bowed deeply and said I would carry out

his directives of noting the correct species.

 

Gratefully,

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

 

 

 

..

 

 

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=9495977/grpspId=1705060814/msgId

=33674/stime=1242433182/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It seems the issue is not significant to me especially all tcm

students are taught (there is a saying) do not use more than 3g of xi

xin.

>>>>>many classical Rx call for higher that 3g doses. When used

correctly they seem to be safe. Obviously if one has AA containing

species that would be a big problem.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

alonmarcus@...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

AA is not water soluble, so most of the concern is allayed when using it in

decoction. The presence of AA does become a concern when it is consumed in pill

form.

 

Douglas

 

 

 

 

________________________________

alon marcus <alonmarcus

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:27:56 PM

Re: Herb company that carries Shang han/Jin gui pills

 

 

 

 

 

It seems the issue is not significant to me especially all tcm

students are taught (there is a saying) do not use more than 3g of xi

xin.

>>>>>many classical Rx call for higher that 3g doses. When used

correctly they seem to be safe. Obviously if one has AA containing

species that would be a big problem.

 

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

www.integrativeheal thmedicine. comalonmarcus@ wans.net

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Tom, thank you for doing the legwork here. I've only read the first one so

far, which unfortuantely contains no information at all on " morbidity or

mortality " . One point regarding check ups and such with western mds. I myself am

in that habit, but it must also be said that they are no guarantee of anything,

and that much of the time it will be only to cover our butts.

See this:

 

Letter: Orthodox Medicine Isn't Infallible

BMJ 1993;307;624-625

 

Orthodox medicine isn't infallible

EDITOR,-In a letter about the Osteopaths Bill

E Ernst repeats the mistake of many orthodox

doctors-namely, that of resorting to a simplistic

stereotype of perfect orthodox medical diagnosticians

and their imperfect complementary

counterparts. Ernst asks whether osteopathic

treatment is to be prescribed after an orthodox

diagnosis by a " fully trained medical doctor " or

after direct access to a complementary practitioner

with only " non-optimal " knowledge and gives a

simple example of the dangers of the second

option: an osteopath being able to treat on the

NHS a patient with back pain caused by a spinal

malignancy. According to Ernst's conjecture, an

osteopath is much more likely to misdiagnose this

condition than a doctor.

I know of a real case similar to Ernst's conjecture,

but in which the roles are reversed. A colleague of

mine, who was eventually found to have a spinal

tumour, was misdiagnosed by two doctors, and it

was a subsequent visit to an osteopath that led to

the correct diagnosis. The osteopath concluded

that my colleague's lower limb neuromuscular

problems were caused not by an osteopathic lesion

but by a space occupying lesion in the spinal

canal pinching the nerves. A speedy referral to a

neurosurgeon was followed by the successful

removal of a benign tumour spanning three thoracic

vertebrae; the osteopath can take the credit for the

correct diagnosis.

This anecdote and others like it suggest that the

real world of health care in Britain is not as Ernst

suggests, for two reasons. Firstly, the open and

free access to general practitioners means that

the problems people take to complementary

practitioners have often been discussed with

an orthodox doctor beforehand. There is thus

ample opportunity for an initial orthodox medical

diagnosis (or misdiagnosis) of most problems.

Secondly, even though complementary practitioners

offer different diagnostic and therapeutic

approaches, this does not mean that they are blind

to the need to refer specific health problems to

orthodox doctors, nor that they are insufficiently

skilled to be able to detect the cases that require

this.

Obviously, there are perfect and imperfect

diagnosticians in all branches of health care, and it

is time for those of us who are in the orthodox

medical camp to refrain from defending our position

with simplistic, self righteous stereotypes.

DAVID ST GEORGE

Department of Public Health and Primary Care,

Royal Free Hospital School ofMedicine,

London NW3 2PF

I Emst E. Complementary medicine. BMJ

 

 

Hope you all enjoyed that!

 

Hugo

 

 

________________________________

Hugo Ramiro

http://middlemedicine.wordpress.com

http://www.chinesemedicaltherapies.org