Guest guest Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 I know this is being talked about as part of a couple other threads, but I wanted to go ahead and create a post on this topic. Anyone have any ideas about how Obama's healthcare reform is likely to effect us? Right now I have insurance companies that pay well and some that pay not so well and it all balances out. I'm concerned that with universal healthcare I will be paid a lot less. I'm a huge Obama fan and generally quite liberal, but am not thrilled with the idea of having to see more patients in order to make the same amount of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 There are really three separate issues here. The first, is if we are going to be included in the healthcare reformation that Obama is proposing and what will that entail. The second one is about reimbursements for healthcare services. The third one is the public's involvement in determining acceptance. Obama has mentioned that we need to be involved and I could not agree more although he seems to feel that EMR's will make a huge reduction to overall costs. That argument has not be proven by studies. The real cost savings can be found in the single-payer proposals where the insurance companies are no longer administering benefits. Obama seems to feel that single-payer is not the answer but he does not realize that insurance administrative overhead is about 30%. That alone could cover every American. I am sorry, I got caught up in the moment and am interested in this topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Michael W. Bowser, LAc Chinese Medicine heylaurag Tue, 10 Mar 2009 23:50:23 +0000 Healthcare reform--effect on us I know this is being talked about as part of a couple other threads, but I wanted to go ahead and create a post on this topic. Anyone have any ideas about how Obama's healthcare reform is likely to effect us? Right now I have insurance companies that pay well and some that pay not so well and it all balances out. I'm concerned that with universal healthcare I will be paid a lot less. I'm a huge Obama fan and generally quite liberal, but am not thrilled with the idea of having to see more patients in order to make the same amount of money. _______________ Windows Live™ Contacts: Organize your contact list. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5\ 03D1D86EBB2B53C!2285.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_UGC_Contacts_032009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 i don't believe acupuncture is being discussed as part as a covered benefit in universal healthcare. what we should lobby for is flex cards that allow pre-tax dollars that go into a health care savings acct, to be used in the present or future years for out of pkt expenses, such as dental, chiro, acu, optometry & OTC items. the patient gives us a debit card to charge their acct. we provide a subform, but don't get involved in any direct billing to insur cos. a win, win, win. kath On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 7:50 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > I know this is being talked about as part of a couple other threads, but > I wanted to go ahead and create a post on this topic. Anyone have any ideas > about how Obama's healthcare reform is likely to effect us? > > Right now I have insurance companies that pay well and some that pay not so > well and it all balances out. I'm concerned that with universal healthcare I > will be paid a lot less. I'm a huge Obama fan and generally quite liberal, > but am not thrilled with the idea of having to see more patients in order to > make the same amount of money. > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Kath, I am glad you mentioned HSA's or flex plans. We have an organization in MN (MUHCC) that is actively working on getting a single payer system set up in MN. I have learned alot about the different ideas as we have a very knowledgeable attorney (Kip Sullivan) who regularly speaks on local radio and email about what is legit and what is faith-based as far as concepts that will actually lower healthcare costs. These programs are and for the benefit of those with extra income and that are healthy and do nothing to help reduce healthcare costs on the overburdened system. These will not help the growing numbers of un/under-insureds that have lost their job(s). There is also the argument that HSA's are really just another tax shelter. This is part of the old way of doing business and they have not been shown to actually reduce any costs. In my acupuncture experience and also during my chiropractic internship, I do not recall any patients using an HSA to pay for care. In the healthcare policy community, these programs are not given much credence anymore. They are not the answer. One solution is to eliminate the wasteful spending by eliminating insurance companies. This one idea could save enough to cover every American with coverage similar to what current Senators get. Makes sense to me. Have you read any of the single-payer proposals out there? Michael W. Bowser, LAc Chinese Medicine acukath Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:26:56 -0400 Re: Healthcare reform--effect on us i don't believe acupuncture is being discussed as part as a covered benefit in universal healthcare. what we should lobby for is flex cards that allow pre-tax dollars that go into a health care savings acct, to be used in the present or future years for out of pkt expenses, such as dental, chiro, acu, optometry & OTC items. the patient gives us a debit card to charge their acct. we provide a subform, but don't get involved in any direct billing to insur cos. a win, win, win. kath On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 7:50 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag wrote: > I know this is being talked about as part of a couple other threads, but > I wanted to go ahead and create a post on this topic. Anyone have any ideas > about how Obama's healthcare reform is likely to effect us? > > Right now I have insurance companies that pay well and some that pay not so > well and it all balances out. I'm concerned that with universal healthcare I > will be paid a lot less. I'm a huge Obama fan and generally quite liberal, > but am not thrilled with the idea of having to see more patients in order to > make the same amount of money. > > > -- Kath Bartlett, LAc, MS, BA UCLA Oriental Medicine Experienced, Dedicated, Effective Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: http://acukath.blogspot.com/ Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist Available at Asheville Center for : www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com and from the following supply companies: Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= Asheville Center For 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 kbartlett www.AcupunctureAsheville.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Mike: i beg to differ with you on this subject. i have patients with flex plans to pay for non-covered heathcare services. generally the employer and employee contribute. they have $ avail for acu & other out of pkt expenses that are paid with pre-tax & employer contributions. their pretax contributions give them an effective 30% disc on my services, depending on their tax bracket. if employers contributes, they pay even less. i don't have any extra staff time invested in billing: i run it like a debit card. i feel americans need to take on the responsibility of paying for more of thier healthcare. with the advancement of medical technology, the price of healthcare, as we know, has increased exponentially, and will continue to sky rocket. the health insurers aren't going to be able to pay for all of that. i don't consider free healthcare to be an iinalienable right. (this doesn't not mean that i am not for universal healthcare). i feel that insurance is going to be there to cover the higher expenses, and that smaller expenses, say under $5K/yr will be out of pkt expenses. i really don't see why folks expect free healthcare, but don't expect free home repairs (roofs, water heaters, plumbing, leaky basements) or auto repairs. we expect to pay and save for the later, but with healthcare it's a big 'i can't afford it' whine, said while driving the suv, watching the big-screen tv, or on the neat vacation. this is where hsa's come in. one can save $ in the hsa and have it avail for healthcare expenses in the current year, or future years: say as a senior. i would love every amer (including me) to get the health insur policy senators get, and i love obama's plan to raise taxes on those over $250K earners, the upper .5 of the top 1% of the country in order to pay for it. but i think americans also need to take on some of the financial responsibility of healthcare. and i feel hsa's are a way to do that. as far as the indigent who truely do not have the money, that's a different issue. in our profession, community acu helps serve this population. i would also like to see the formation of low cost clinics, funded by grants and donations. LAc's in the community could donate 1-2 shifts a month pro-bono, and some LAc's could be hired with salaries and benefits. but we have to own the fact that, like it or not, we are a capitalistic and not a socialist country (personally i do not have a problem with socialism and do not consider it a dirty word). as such, you need $ to live here, and generally speaking, it requires hard work, diligence, self-discipline and edu to earn $. $ to pay for things like housing, food, transportation, healthcare and retirement. those of us with higher edu sacrificed years of earning, social lives, vacations and so on and through self discipline and determination, and taking on financial debt and burning our saving we were able to learn the tools of our craft so to create a better life for ourselves. that's what is required to earn $ in this capitalistic system that we were born into. (right or wrong, that is the way capitalism works.) and that's how one is able to earn the $ need to pay for life sustaining necessities, such as food, clothing, shelter and healthcare. of those items, americans expect only healthcare to be free. why would healthcare be free, but not food, clothing and shelter? i didn't not write this post to provoke argument, although knowing this group as i do, i'm certain many of you will find my opinions objectionable. please be polite and courteous with your responses so that we might have a productive, intellectual rather than an emotional, eco-centered discussion of these issues. (in other words, please be sure your liver qi's in check before hitting the send button). kath On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 5:18 PM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > Kath, > I am glad you mentioned HSA's or flex plans. We have an organization in MN > (MUHCC) that is actively working on getting a single payer system set up in > MN. I have learned alot about the different ideas as we have a very > knowledgeable attorney (Kip Sullivan) who regularly speaks on local radio > and email about what is legit and what is faith-based as far as concepts > that will actually lower healthcare costs. > These programs are and for the benefit of those with extra income and that > are healthy and do nothing to help reduce healthcare costs on the > overburdened system. These will not help the growing numbers of > un/under-insureds that have lost their job(s). > There is also the argument that HSA's are really just another tax shelter. > This is part of the old way of doing business and they have not been shown > to actually reduce any costs. > In my acupuncture experience and also during my chiropractic internship, I > do not recall any patients using an HSA to pay for care. In the healthcare > policy community, these programs are not given much credence anymore. They > are not the answer. One solution is to eliminate the wasteful spending by > eliminating insurance companies. This one idea could save enough to cover > every American with coverage similar to what current Senators get. Makes > sense to me. > Have you read any of the single-payer proposals out there? > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> > Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:26:56 -0400 > Re: Healthcare reform--effect on us > > i don't believe acupuncture is being discussed as part as a covered benefit > > in universal healthcare. what we should lobby for is flex cards that allow > > pre-tax dollars that go into a health care savings acct, to be used in the > > present or future years for out of pkt expenses, such as dental, chiro, > acu, > > optometry & OTC items. the patient gives us a debit card to charge their > > acct. we provide a subform, but don't get involved in any direct billing to > > insur cos. a win, win, win. > > kath > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 7:50 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag<heylaurag%40hotmail.com>> > wrote: > > > I know this is being talked about as part of a couple other threads, but > > > I wanted to go ahead and create a post on this topic. Anyone have any > ideas > > > about how Obama's healthcare reform is likely to effect us? > > > > > > Right now I have insurance companies that pay well and some that pay not > so > > > well and it all balances out. I'm concerned that with universal > healthcare I > > > will be paid a lot less. I'm a huge Obama fan and generally quite > liberal, > > > but am not thrilled with the idea of having to see more patients in order > to > > > make the same amount of money. > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com <http://www.flyingdragonliniment.com/> > > and from the following supply companies: > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 Kath, Thank your for your opinions. First, there are many examples in our nation where some might say we are socialist (police dept, fire dept, water, sewage, electricity, highways, etc) and nowhere in the Constitution does it say we are capitalists. In fact, the Constitution starts out with the words, " We, the people... " and these words may, in fact, be interpreted to mean we are a community as our forefathers had intended. The issues that are now rampant are the direct result of capitalism on steroids, or ,in other words, unregulated greed without any accountability. It is going to take us a while to calm this monster down and try to reset so hopefully some normalcy can be restored in our daily lives. I find it interesting that we do not see health as a right yet we legislate clear air, clear water, have laws against pollution, all for the betterment of our health. We live in the richest nation, yet we fail to help the growing numbers of less fortunate. I agree, as do many, that belong to the MUHCC that a single-payer system is the only real cost-saving answer to healthcare that can work. There are many great examples of other nations where this has been very successful. The real issue is what the details look like. Did you know that we are the only one of the top ten industrialized nations that has no govt sponsorship in its citizens healthcare and yet we rank a dismal 37th in overall health (according to the WHO)? We also spend more then twice as much annually then the next nation and our outcomes are terrible. We have a very high infant mortality rate. It is clear that things are not working well from the indicators. Now, let's turn to the issue of HSA and/or flex plans. They sound good but in fact have not shown to reduce healthcare expenses, great for healthy ones but not offering any affordability for those with chronic illnesses and also being abused as a tax shelter. People with an HSA can likewise easily find themselves in financial ruin with any one of the catastrophic illnesses and then get dropped from their high-deductible plan (Kaiser executive was caught denying coverage for plan services). The idea that patients can shop around for healthcare is silly when you start considering the many procedures that are out there and the hope that they will get credible answers or know how to navigate the system. It works for minor problems. The HSA's are not a very good thing if you want to discuss the global healthcare issues of this country. They are for a very small minority. I am glad that you are able to work with these people. The same things were said about HMO's being able to lower costs years ago. The opposite is true and it is now time to start a dialogue about things that have been shown to work and get rid of those that do not work. For-profit healthcare has not worked in this country very well. Things used to be very different here years ago when patients were not inundated with advertising, deals, etc. HSA's will fail for a large and growing segment of our nation, who will then partake of ER services at several times the normal rates, we will all be paying for this through taxes, and more people will not get needed preventative care to avoid serious conditions. This is already happening. Kath, many Americans can and do pay a lot for healthcare and the amounts continue to rise. Many employees have or started coverage with employers and healthcare was a benefit that was offered as part of the compensation package. I would also like to see us remove the burden from businesses but the only logical replacement is a universal system with a single-payer. If people are interested I might ask the MUHCC attorney to respond to any and all questions on this issue and post the responses for us all to learn. Just let me know. Many of us are un or under-insured and many others are being denied coverage for procedures that they need and are in their policies. Insurance is not the correct answer here either. It is good that we are having this discussion as I have not heard many in the profession even understand that options of delivery that exist. We need to be asking our leadership for involvement and to get ourselves and our patients up to speed on what the various industries are doing to prevent us from actually moving forward with meaningful change. There can only be one that is the best option and in order to find it we need to have more study of the solutions. The devil is going to be in the details, so they say. Michael W. Bowser, LAc Chinese Medicine acukath Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:41:57 -0400 Re: Healthcare reform--effect on us Mike: i beg to differ with you on this subject. i have patients with flex plans to pay for non-covered heathcare services. generally the employer and employee contribute. they have $ avail for acu & other out of pkt expenses that are paid with pre-tax & employer contributions. their pretax contributions give them an effective 30% disc on my services, depending on their tax bracket. if employers contributes, they pay even less. i don't have any extra staff time invested in billing: i run it like a debit card. i feel americans need to take on the responsibility of paying for more of thier healthcare. with the advancement of medical technology, the price of healthcare, as we know, has increased exponentially, and will continue to sky rocket. the health insurers aren't going to be able to pay for all of that. i don't consider free healthcare to be an iinalienable right. (this doesn't not mean that i am not for universal healthcare). i feel that insurance is going to be there to cover the higher expenses, and that smaller expenses, say under $5K/yr will be out of pkt expenses. i really don't see why folks expect free healthcare, but don't expect free home repairs (roofs, water heaters, plumbing, leaky basements) or auto repairs. we expect to pay and save for the later, but with healthcare it's a big 'i can't afford it' whine, said while driving the suv, watching the big-screen tv, or on the neat vacation. this is where hsa's come in. one can save $ in the hsa and have it avail for healthcare expenses in the current year, or future years: say as a senior. i would love every amer (including me) to get the health insur policy senators get, and i love obama's plan to raise taxes on those over $250K earners, the upper .5 of the top 1% of the country in order to pay for it. but i think americans also need to take on some of the financial responsibility of healthcare. and i feel hsa's are a way to do that. as far as the indigent who truely do not have the money, that's a different issue. in our profession, community acu helps serve this population. i would also like to see the formation of low cost clinics, funded by grants and donations. LAc's in the community could donate 1-2 shifts a month pro-bono, and some LAc's could be hired with salaries and benefits. but we have to own the fact that, like it or not, we are a capitalistic and not a socialist country (personally i do not have a problem with socialism and do not consider it a dirty word). as such, you need $ to live here, and generally speaking, it requires hard work, diligence, self-discipline and edu to earn $. $ to pay for things like housing, food, transportation, healthcare and retirement. those of us with higher edu sacrificed years of earning, social lives, vacations and so on and through self discipline and determination, and taking on financial debt and burning our saving we were able to learn the tools of our craft so to create a better life for ourselves. that's what is required to earn $ in this capitalistic system that we were born into. (right or wrong, that is the way capitalism works.) and that's how one is able to earn the $ need to pay for life sustaining necessities, such as food, clothing, shelter and healthcare. of those items, americans expect only healthcare to be free. why would healthcare be free, but not food, clothing and shelter? i didn't not write this post to provoke argument, although knowing this group as i do, i'm certain many of you will find my opinions objectionable. please be polite and courteous with your responses so that we might have a productive, intellectual rather than an emotional, eco-centered discussion of these issues. (in other words, please be sure your liver qi's in check before hitting the send button). kath On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 5:18 PM, mike Bowser <naturaldoc1wrote: > > Kath, > I am glad you mentioned HSA's or flex plans. We have an organization in MN > (MUHCC) that is actively working on getting a single payer system set up in > MN. I have learned alot about the different ideas as we have a very > knowledgeable attorney (Kip Sullivan) who regularly speaks on local radio > and email about what is legit and what is faith-based as far as concepts > that will actually lower healthcare costs. > These programs are and for the benefit of those with extra income and that > are healthy and do nothing to help reduce healthcare costs on the > overburdened system. These will not help the growing numbers of > un/under-insureds that have lost their job(s). > There is also the argument that HSA's are really just another tax shelter. > This is part of the old way of doing business and they have not been shown > to actually reduce any costs. > In my acupuncture experience and also during my chiropractic internship, I > do not recall any patients using an HSA to pay for care. In the healthcare > policy community, these programs are not given much credence anymore. They > are not the answer. One solution is to eliminate the wasteful spending by > eliminating insurance companies. This one idea could save enough to cover > every American with coverage similar to what current Senators get. Makes > sense to me. > Have you read any of the single-payer proposals out there? > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > acukath <acukath%40gmail.com> > Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:26:56 -0400 > Re: Healthcare reform--effect on us > > i don't believe acupuncture is being discussed as part as a covered benefit > > in universal healthcare. what we should lobby for is flex cards that allow > > pre-tax dollars that go into a health care savings acct, to be used in the > > present or future years for out of pkt expenses, such as dental, chiro, > acu, > > optometry & OTC items. the patient gives us a debit card to charge their > > acct. we provide a subform, but don't get involved in any direct billing to > > insur cos. a win, win, win. > > kath > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 7:50 PM, heylaurag <heylaurag<heylaurag%40hotmail.com>> > wrote: > >> I know this is being talked about as part of a couple other threads, but > >> I wanted to go ahead and create a post on this topic. Anyone have any > ideas > >> about how Obama's healthcare reform is likely to effect us? > >> > >> Right now I have insurance companies that pay well and some that pay not > so > >> well and it all balances out. I'm concerned that with universal > healthcare I > >> will be paid a lot less. I'm a huge Obama fan and generally quite > liberal, > >> but am not thrilled with the idea of having to see more patients in order > to > >> make the same amount of money. > >> > >> > >> > > -- > > > > Oriental Medicine > > Experienced, Dedicated, Effective > > Kath's Blog about , Healthy Living & Spirituality: > > http://acukath.blogspot.com/ > > Flying Dragon Liniment: Effective pain relief for muscles & joints > > Formulated by Kath Bartlett, Traditional Chinese Herbalist > > Available at Asheville Center for : > > www.FlyingDragonLiniment.com <http://www.flyingdragonliniment.com/> > > and from the following supply companies: > > Kamwo Herbal Pharmacy: NY - Chinatown > > https://www.kamwo.com/shop/product.php?productid=17442 & cat=0 & page=1 > > Golden Needle Acupuncture, Herbal & Medical Supply - Candler, NC > > > http://www.goldenneedleonline.com/index.php?page=categories & category=14 & vendor= & \ product=5554 & pg= > > Asheville Center For > > 70 Woodfin Place, Suite West Wing Two > > Asheville, NC 28801 828.258.2777 > > kbartlett <kbartlett%40AcupunctureAsheville.com> > > www.AcupunctureAsheville.com <http://www.acupunctureasheville.com/> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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