Guest guest Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Donald Snow: I believe that if others knew how to do what I do, they would be doing it because patients get well quickly and permanently; and to not use the knowledge would be unethical and a travesty. Paul Buchman: Donald, respectfully, why would you not teach your method on a larger scale? Imagine how many patients would benefit if 10 or 100 or 1000 practitioners were using your methods? Where would CM be without our rich history of beloved teachers? What future could we create if we continued to act from a place of generosity? For the sake of the medicine and the culture. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry Donald Snow <don83407 Wed, 4 Mar 2009 09:27:53 <Chinese Traditional Medicine > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? Innovative people create new things all the time. Einstien, Pasteur, Royal Rife, etc. When things are standardized, that means things never change because change is not " standardized. " I can, indeed, protect my knowledge. I can just not teach it. I know others are not doing what I do because they are not getting the results that I am getting. I taught at one of the largest AOM schools in the U.S and I know the results my peers were getting and the results I'm getting, and they weren't really even close then and I've improved 110% since I've left. The equipment I use is standardized and FDA approved, my methodology isn't. And if my methodology is changed even " 10% " , the results will not be forthcoming. If the results are not forthcoming, patients will not be coming forth, because what I do is expensive and time consuming. But patients who come to me pay for results. That being said. I have a nice business making an income that less than 2% of the population is making. And there aren't many acupuncturists that are doing that. If one wants to make a million dollars, you don't ask someone that isn't making that amount how to do it because if they knew how, they would be doing it. Therefore, I have a way to make people better and create a nice income. I can either keep it to myself, of find humble, trustworthy people to teach, which is what I am trying to find. It is said that many martial artists withheld a piece of knowledge from their students. After time that does water down the art. I believe that if others knew how to do what I do, they would be doing it because patients get well quickly and permanently; and to not use the knowledge would be unethical and a travesty. Therefore, I'm pretty sure no one else has the knowledge that I found through much trial and error. That being said, people can believe what they will. But as for me, I'll continue down my path. It has been said that what separates the extraorinary person from the ordinary person is that the extraordinary person just does that something a little extra. Sincerely, Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > Chinese Traditional Medicine > naturaldoc1 > Wed, 4 Mar 2009 01:13:53 +0000 > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > > > Don, > I must apologize for taking us in this direction as it was not my intent. I do find the argument about protection somewhat strange and appearing unenforceable though (there is really no way to prevent someone from using the concepts and simply opening their own clinic up). > In some ways, healthcare providers are supposed to follow some form of uniformity known as practice standards. Are practice standards a violation of intellectual property? > I also think that as far as intellectual property, there really is not much that is new or has not been already created, including TCM. I would say, tongue-in-cheek, that currently LAc's are using proprietary information w/o any remuneration. > > Michael W. Bowser, LAc > > > Chinese Traditional Medicine > > don83407 > > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:38:30 -0600 > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > > > > > > Did I mention anything about a non-compete? As I look down the page I don't see anywhere I mentioned this. No one is signing a non-compete. But there are patent laws in this country and this is different than non-compete. Please do not attribute words to me that do not exist. If anyone wants to learn what I have to offer, this is the only way you will get the knowledge. If not, that's fine with me also. I'm doing very well, thank you. > > > > > > > > Secondly, there is nothing to re-engineer. This equipment already exists. I own a proprietary methodology. > > > > > > > > And last, if I even felt that I was dealing with someone who thought dishonorably. I simply would not teach him. For instance, I probably would not consider teaching you since you already have the idea of taking knowledge that is not yours and making it yours. > > > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc. > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > davidetoone > > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:16:44 -0500 > > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu? > > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck enforcing a non-compete clause or unlimited scope and > > duration. I don't know of a court anywhere in the US that would uphold > > such a thing. Regarding your patent pending status, even if you do get > > a successful patent, all one has to do in counter-engineer it 10% and > > then they off free. > > > > David Toone, J.D., MSOM, L.Ac. > > > > On Mar 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Donald Snow wrote: > > > >> > >> I have taken care of that legally. I have a patent-pending in place > >> right now. This was very costly and is a good protection. Anyone I > >> teach must sign a contract and if they leave, they must pay me 10% > >> of what they earn, if they use my methodology, for the rest of their > >> working lives. This should be worth it because if they were only > >> earning $50,000 - $100,000 per annum and they then earn double that, > >> I would say that is a good deal for both of us. > >> > >> > >> > >> Believe me, I'm lawyered-up. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> > >> > >> > >> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc. > >> > >>> Chinese Traditional Medicine > >>> naturaldoc1 > >>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:10:42 +0000 > >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>> > >>> > >>> Don, > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Actually I was asking about those providers that have other > >>> healthcare training plus LAc and wondered if you had thought about > >>> adding that into your clinic. It sounds like something you are not > >>> interested in. Just curious as to how you plan to keep your > >>> associate from leaving with information they learn on the job > >>> (answer to #1 below). Thanks for sharing. > >>> > >>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine > >>>> don83407 > >>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:37:18 -0600 > >>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sorry, only L.Acs due to the following reasons: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> 1. PT's already use some of the equipment I use but don't get the > >>>> results I get because they don't know how to use their own > >>>> equipment. I am not about to teach someone my proprietary > >>>> methodologies so they can go off and use them as their own. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> 2. I bill much more than a DC bills per treatment. That means if > >>>> someone is a DC, he will be " splitting " treatments and will loose > >>>> income. I do work with a DC though, and when the acupuncture > >>>> patient does not get relief with acupuncture it is almost a sure > >>>> bet that the patient has a structural problem. That patient needs > >>>> chiro, immediately followed by acupuncture. The acupuncture will > >>>> " set " the chiro adjustment and he will not need to see the chiro > >>>> very often at all. This means the chiro will loose money in the > >>>> short run. But his referrals will skyrocket. Many of my patients > >>>> have been to the chiro with little or no results. In my > >>>> experience, I send less than 1 patient per every 30 to the chiro > >>>> because acupuncture is so superior in many ways. But some do need > >>>> both. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Hope this answers your questions. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Sincerely, > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc > >>>> > >>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine > >>>>> naturaldoc1 > >>>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:34:05 +0000 > >>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Don, > >>>>> Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself > >>>>> soon DC along with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into > >>>>> your clinic model. > >>>>> > >>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc > >>>>> > >>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine > >>>>>> don83407 > >>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600 > >>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left > >>>>>> San Diego almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever > >>>>>> made. I'm going back to visit in April, but I will never live > >>>>>> there again if I can help it. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership > >>>>>> much like law firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been > >>>>>> kicking around the idea of selling a percentage because of the > >>>>>> equipment overhead. However, I think a limited partnership is > >>>>>> best with some type of percentage if the associate makes greater > >>>>>> than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine > >>>>>>> naturaldoc1 > >>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000 > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Don, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are > >>>>>>> thinking about and also whether or not your plans would be > >>>>>>> interested in dual licensed providers (non-MD/DO). I am looking > >>>>>>> to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc > >>>>>>> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain > >>>>>>> confidential or legally privileged information that is intended > >>>>>>> only for the individual or entity named in the e-mail address. > >>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified > >>>>>>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon > >>>>>>> the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have > >>>>>>> received this e-mail transmission in error, please delete the > >>>>>>> message from your Inbox. Thank you. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine > >>>>>>> don83407 > >>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600 > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment > >>>>>>> methodology for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and > >>>>>>> knows how tough it can be. Someone hungry. Someone who after 3 > >>>>>>> or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We will buy > >>>>>>> their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with > >>>>>>> an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or > >>>>>>> swim. They would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they > >>>>>>> start producing at their new location, then they would be > >>>>>>> offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over > >>>>>>> their salary. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. > >>>>>>> That person will learn to train others and develop their own > >>>>>>> clientele. That person would also be offered a percentage of > >>>>>>> anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are furnished > >>>>>>> along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone > >>>>>>> had made me an offer like this after graduating from school. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Chinese Medicine > >>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym > >>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800 > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the > >>>>>>> resumes are pouring in. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: > >>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 > >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine > >>>>>>> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have > >>>>>>> explained a little about this on earlier posts and don't want > >>>>>>> to re-hash it. But these numbers are real and very doable. I > >>>>>>> do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that is > >>>>>>> what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at > >>>>>>> around $6 to $800K a year and I get burned out in the process. > >>>>>>> I need another arm here. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Don, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I have a couple friends who are doing that. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Best, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Kokko > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% > >>>>>>>> 40>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. > >>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth > >>>>>>>> is different, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a > >>>>>>>> cat japanese, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, > >>>>>>>> c'mon, I already > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not > >>>>>>>> successful like you, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace > >>>>>>>> brother. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com > >>>>>>>> <don83407%40msn. com>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine @. > >>>>>>>> com<traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around > >>>>>>>> giving > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain > >>>>>>>> a busy > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped > >>>>>>>> to sell to > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and > >>>>>>>> busy practices > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching > >>>>>>>> our peers. In > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often > >>>>>>>> one must > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really > >>>>>>>> required 3 to 6 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> inch needles. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a > >>>>>>>> great deal of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They > >>>>>>>> used to take > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But > >>>>>>>> insurance pays > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> for most of what I do. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hope this helps, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym@ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big > >>>>>>>> or small, of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a > >>>>>>>> while. But it was > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the > >>>>>>>> patient had > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever > >>>>>>>> they could > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws > >>>>>>>> got tightened, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting > >>>>>>>> too greedy > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They > >>>>>>>> wouldn't come if > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time > >>>>>>>> becuase no > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money > >>>>>>>> anyway. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Still, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> it would make things grow. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from > >>>>>>>> you. Of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or > >>>>>>>> inspire. The > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our > >>>>>>>> little craft is > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> hurting the field as a whole. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I > >>>>>>>> am taking > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a > >>>>>>>> percentage. That > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I > >>>>>>>> make around > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right > >>>>>>>> out of school > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of > >>>>>>>> days when s/he > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more > >>>>>>>> money. It's a > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are > >>>>>>>> going to make > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to > >>>>>>>> continue > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the > >>>>>>>> experience > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> reality. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients > >>>>>>>> come by word-of > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I > >>>>>>>> buy radio, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. > >>>>>>>> Yesterday I cut a > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> new > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or > >>>>>>>> stops > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> working, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I change it. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside > >>>>>>>> the box. You > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make > >>>>>>>> $200-400 per > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of > >>>>>>>> practice and I > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If > >>>>>>>> they continue > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of > >>>>>>>> practice. Again, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually > >>>>>>>> unappreciated and > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you. > >>>>>>>> I'll teach > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a > >>>>>>>> written contract. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sincerely, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Donald, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Did you take a practice mgmt course? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> How do you do it? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> K > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) > >>>>>>>> com> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the > >>>>>>>>> patients. The sad > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> but > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the > >>>>>>>>> patients to make > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an > >>>>>>>>> acupuncturist is > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> around > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients > >>>>>>>>> to stay busy > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 8, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those > >>>>>>>>> who don't or > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is > >>>>>>>>> a good > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> deal. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that > >>>>>>>>> exceed what > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end > >>>>>>>>> of the > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> scale. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will > >>>>>>>>> be different > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> than the median. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient > >>>>>>>>> base. If you > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be > >>>>>>>>> lucky to find > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. > >>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all > >>>>>>>>> master's level > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000 > >>>>>>>>> and $65,000 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for > >>>>>>>>> health care, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> education, retirement, etc. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether > >>>>>>>>> the client > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> shows up or not. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Phone: 503 364 3022 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Robert Chu > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. > >>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los > >>>>>>>>> Angeles. It > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> was paltry. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> In private practice its much better. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@ > >>>>>>>>> gmail. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to > >>>>>>>>>> know what a > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd > >>>>>>>>>> appreciate some > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Julie > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Please close out this discussion now. If you have any further discussion about this take it off list. Mark Milotay, List Owner On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 1:55 PM, <ru_paul2 wrote: > Donald Snow: I believe that if others knew how to do what I do, they would be doing it because patients get well quickly and permanently; and to not use the knowledge would be unethical and a travesty. > > Paul Buchman: Donald, respectfully, why would you not teach your method on a larger scale? Imagine how many patients would benefit if 10 or 100 or 1000 practitioners were using your methods? > Where would CM be without our rich history of beloved teachers? What future could we create if we continued to act from a place of generosity? For the sake of the medicine and the culture. > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > Donald Snow <don83407 > > Wed, 4 Mar 2009 09:27:53 > <Chinese Traditional Medicine > > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? > > > > Innovative people create new things all the time. Einstien, Pasteur, Royal Rife, etc. When things are standardized, that means things never change because change is not " standardized. " > > > > I can, indeed, protect my knowledge. I can just not teach it. I know others are not doing what I do because they are not getting the results that I am getting. I taught at one of the largest AOM schools in the U.S and I know the results my peers were getting and the results I'm getting, and they weren't really even close then and I've improved 110% since I've left. The equipment I use is standardized and FDA approved, my methodology isn't. And if my methodology is changed even " 10% " , the results will not be forthcoming. If the results are not forthcoming, patients will not be coming forth, because what I do is expensive and time consuming. But patients who come to me pay for results. > > > > That being said. I have a nice business making an income that less than 2% of the population is making. And there aren't many acupuncturists that are doing that. If one wants to make a million dollars, you don't ask someone that isn't making that amount how to do it because if they knew how, they would be doing it. Therefore, I have a way to make people better and create a nice income. I can either keep it to myself, of find humble, trustworthy people to teach, which is what I am trying to find. > > > > It is said that many martial artists withheld a piece of knowledge from their students. After time that does water down the art. I believe that if others knew how to do what I do, they would be doing it because patients get well quickly and permanently; and to not use the knowledge would be unethical and a travesty. Therefore, I'm pretty sure no one else has the knowledge that I found through much trial and error. > > > > That being said, people can believe what they will. But as for me, I'll continue down my path. It has been said that what separates the extraorinary person from the ordinary person is that the extraordinary person just does that something a little extra. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, L.Ac. > >> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> naturaldoc1 >> Wed, 4 Mar 2009 01:13:53 +0000 >> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >> >> Don, >> I must apologize for taking us in this direction as it was not my intent. I do find the argument about protection somewhat strange and appearing unenforceable though (there is really no way to prevent someone from using the concepts and simply opening their own clinic up). >> In some ways, healthcare providers are supposed to follow some form of uniformity known as practice standards. Are practice standards a violation of intellectual property? >> I also think that as far as intellectual property, there really is not much that is new or has not been already created, including TCM. I would say, tongue-in-cheek, that currently LAc's are using proprietary information w/o any remuneration. >> >> Michael W. Bowser, LAc >> >> > Chinese Traditional Medicine >> > don83407 >> > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 13:38:30 -0600 >> > RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> > >> > >> > Did I mention anything about a non-compete? As I look down the page I don't see anywhere I mentioned this. No one is signing a non-compete. But there are patent laws in this country and this is different than non-compete. Please do not attribute words to me that do not exist. If anyone wants to learn what I have to offer, this is the only way you will get the knowledge. If not, that's fine with me also. I'm doing very well, thank you. >> > >> > >> > >> > Secondly, there is nothing to re-engineer. This equipment already exists. I own a proprietary methodology. >> > >> > >> > >> > And last, if I even felt that I was dealing with someone who thought dishonorably. I simply would not teach him. For instance, I probably would not consider teaching you since you already have the idea of taking knowledge that is not yours and making it yours. >> > >> > >> > >> > Sincerely, >> > >> > >> > Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc. >> > >> > >> > >> > Chinese Medicine >> > davidetoone >> > Tue, 3 Mar 2009 14:16:44 -0500 >> > Re: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Good luck enforcing a non-compete clause or unlimited scope and >> > duration. I don't know of a court anywhere in the US that would uphold >> > such a thing. Regarding your patent pending status, even if you do get >> > a successful patent, all one has to do in counter-engineer it 10% and >> > then they off free. >> > >> > David Toone, J.D., MSOM, L.Ac. >> > >> > On Mar 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Donald Snow wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> I have taken care of that legally. I have a patent-pending in place >> >> right now. This was very costly and is a good protection. Anyone I >> >> teach must sign a contract and if they leave, they must pay me 10% >> >> of what they earn, if they use my methodology, for the rest of their >> >> working lives. This should be worth it because if they were only >> >> earning $50,000 - $100,000 per annum and they then earn double that, >> >> I would say that is a good deal for both of us. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Believe me, I'm lawyered-up. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc. >> >> >> >>> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> >>> naturaldoc1 >> >>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 18:10:42 +0000 >> >>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Don, >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Actually I was asking about those providers that have other >> >>> healthcare training plus LAc and wondered if you had thought about >> >>> adding that into your clinic. It sounds like something you are not >> >>> interested in. Just curious as to how you plan to keep your >> >>> associate from leaving with information they learn on the job >> >>> (answer to #1 below). Thanks for sharing. >> >>> >> >>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> >>>> don83407 >> >>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 10:37:18 -0600 >> >>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Sorry, only L.Acs due to the following reasons: >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> 1. PT's already use some of the equipment I use but don't get the >> >>>> results I get because they don't know how to use their own >> >>>> equipment. I am not about to teach someone my proprietary >> >>>> methodologies so they can go off and use them as their own. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> 2. I bill much more than a DC bills per treatment. That means if >> >>>> someone is a DC, he will be " splitting " treatments and will loose >> >>>> income. I do work with a DC though, and when the acupuncture >> >>>> patient does not get relief with acupuncture it is almost a sure >> >>>> bet that the patient has a structural problem. That patient needs >> >>>> chiro, immediately followed by acupuncture. The acupuncture will >> >>>> " set " the chiro adjustment and he will not need to see the chiro >> >>>> very often at all. This means the chiro will loose money in the >> >>>> short run. But his referrals will skyrocket. Many of my patients >> >>>> have been to the chiro with little or no results. In my >> >>>> experience, I send less than 1 patient per every 30 to the chiro >> >>>> because acupuncture is so superior in many ways. But some do need >> >>>> both. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Hope this answers your questions. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Sincerely, >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, MPH, LAc >> >>>> >> >>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> >>>>> naturaldoc1 >> >>>>> Tue, 3 Mar 2009 03:34:05 +0000 >> >>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Don, >> >>>>> Thanks for your input. I was asking about PT, ND or for myself >> >>>>> soon DC along with my LAc and wondered if any of these fit into >> >>>>> your clinic model. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> >>>>>> don83407 >> >>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:01:11 -0600 >> >>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I don't know what you mean by dual licensed non-MD/DO. I left >> >>>>>> San Diego almost 2 years ago and it was the best decision I ever >> >>>>>> made. I'm going back to visit in April, but I will never live >> >>>>>> there again if I can help it. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> As to the ownership percentage, it will be a limited partnership >> >>>>>> much like law firms do it. My Business Manager and I have been >> >>>>>> kicking around the idea of selling a percentage because of the >> >>>>>> equipment overhead. However, I think a limited partnership is >> >>>>>> best with some type of percentage if the associate makes greater >> >>>>>> than break-even; which I think would be extremely easy to do. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> >>>>>>> naturaldoc1 >> >>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:49:44 +0000 >> >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Don, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Curious as to what type of ownership percentage you are >> >>>>>>> thinking about and also whether or not your plans would be >> >>>>>>> interested in dual licensed providers (non-MD/DO). I am looking >> >>>>>>> to head back to So Cal in the next few years. Thanks >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Michael W. Bowser, LAc >> >>>>>>> www.minneapolisacupuncture.net >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain >> >>>>>>> confidential or legally privileged information that is intended >> >>>>>>> only for the individual or entity named in the e-mail address. >> >>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified >> >>>>>>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon >> >>>>>>> the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have >> >>>>>>> received this e-mail transmission in error, please delete the >> >>>>>>> message from your Inbox. Thank you. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> >>>>>>> don83407 >> >>>>>>> Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:22:02 -0600 >> >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I'm looking for someone who wants to learn a new treatment >> >>>>>>> methodology for 3-4 months. Someone who has been out there and >> >>>>>>> knows how tough it can be. Someone hungry. Someone who after 3 >> >>>>>>> or 4 months wants to take over their own clinic. We will buy >> >>>>>>> their equipment, pay for assistants, set up the contract with >> >>>>>>> an MD, and pay for advertising. That person must then sink or >> >>>>>>> swim. They would have a minimum guaranteed salary until they >> >>>>>>> start producing at their new location, then they would be >> >>>>>>> offered a limited partnership with a percentage of earning over >> >>>>>>> their salary. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I am also looking for a person to stay with me in my clinic. >> >>>>>>> That person will learn to train others and develop their own >> >>>>>>> clientele. That person would also be offered a percentage of >> >>>>>>> anything beyond their base salary. Assistants are furnished >> >>>>>>> along with billing and front office personnel. I wish someone >> >>>>>>> had made me an offer like this after graduating from school. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Dr. Donald J. Snow, Jr. DAOM, MPH, LAc >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Chinese Medicine >> >>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym >> >>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:16:54 -0800 >> >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> What kind of person are you fishing for? I'd imagine the >> >>>>>>> resumes are pouring in. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> --- On Fri, 2/27/09, Donald Snow <don83407 wrote: >> >>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 >> >>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> Chinese Traditional Medicine >> >>>>>>> Friday, February 27, 2009, 3:47 PM >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Yes, and I project $800,000 to 1 mill this year. I have >> >>>>>>> explained a little about this on earlier posts and don't want >> >>>>>>> to re-hash it. But these numbers are real and very doable. I >> >>>>>>> do, however, need to hire another acupuncturist and that is >> >>>>>>> what I am currently in the process of doing. I max out at >> >>>>>>> around $6 to $800K a year and I get burned out in the process. >> >>>>>>> I need another arm here. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:12:59 -0800 >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Don, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> $200-$250 K/ year is definitely doable. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I have a couple friends who are doing that. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I was just wondering about the $600 K that was stated earlier. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Best, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Kokko >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Mercurius Trismegistus < >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> magisterium_ magnum (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> I'm a newbie, and I'm afraid to use 6 inch needles. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> " mystir " <ykcul_ritsym@ <ykcul_ritsym% >> >>>>>>>> 40>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. >> >>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine %40. com> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009 11:30 PM >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> It does help, and I agree with you about some teachers. Depth >> >>>>>>>> is different, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> so you had other teachers, too, outside the sneak up like a >> >>>>>>>> cat japanese, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> and 5 element. Still Don, just little things you told me, >> >>>>>>>> c'mon, I already >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> have 6 " needles, but the newbies are timid. I'm not >> >>>>>>>> successful like you, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> but you can teach, inspire. Thanks for responding. Peace >> >>>>>>>> brother. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com >> >>>>>>>> <don83407%40msn. com>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com <don83407%40msn. com>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine @. >> >>>>>>>> com<traditional_ chinese_medicine %40. com> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 6:10 PM >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> What is hurting the field are so-called masters that go around >> >>>>>>>> giving >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> seminars and have huge followings. They are unable to maintain >> >>>>>>>> a busy >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> practice, so instead hype themselves or have themselves hyped >> >>>>>>>> to sell to >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> those within the profession. If they had such successful and >> >>>>>>>> busy practices >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> they wouldn't have the time to go around the country teaching >> >>>>>>>> our peers. In >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> actuality, there are no secrets in acupuncture. Really, often >> >>>>>>>> one must >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> learn proper needle depth. In school I noticed many students and >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> practitioners using one inch needles in areas that really >> >>>>>>>> required 3 to 6 >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> inch needles. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Now to answer your main question. Yes, insurance pays for a >> >>>>>>>> great deal of >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> my treatments. But probably 1/3 of my patients are cash. They >> >>>>>>>> used to take >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> out loans for the treatments but now I use Care Credit. But >> >>>>>>>> insurance pays >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> for most of what I do. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Hope this helps, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow DAOM, LAc >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> ykcul_ritsym@ >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:59:43 -0800 >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Hi Don. Can I ask you if insurance reimbusement is a part, big >> >>>>>>>> or small, of >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> your ability, or the patient's ability to afford to pay so much? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> I was going to practice on NYC near Spanish Harlem for a >> >>>>>>>> while. But it was >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> a rehab chop shop, and within 40 minutes of arrival, the >> >>>>>>>> patient had >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> chiropractic, acupuncture, interview w a Doc, etc., whatever >> >>>>>>>> they could >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> through at them and get reimbursed for. Eventually the laws >> >>>>>>>> got tightened, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> I >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> guess cause some people whined that the russians were getting >> >>>>>>>> too greedy >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> and >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> flagrant. That's when the NY acup exodus happened. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sound like you have a premier spot, and that's great! They >> >>>>>>>> wouldn't come if >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> you weren't helping. I end up giving it away half the time >> >>>>>>>> becuase no >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> insurance, no money, but, I never got into this for the money >> >>>>>>>> anyway. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Still, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> it would make things grow. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Many people, esp new, would probably benefit from advice from >> >>>>>>>> you. Of >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> course don't give it all away, but things that might help or >> >>>>>>>> inspire. The >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> practice protectionist mind that I sometimes see within our >> >>>>>>>> little craft is >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> hurting the field as a whole. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> --- On Thu, 2/26/09, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) com> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> RE: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> traditional_ chinese_medicine >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Thursday, February 26, 2009, 2:25 PM >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> No, I currently am working alone with 3 assistants. However, I >> >>>>>>>> am taking >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> interviews for an associate that wants a salary and a >> >>>>>>>> percentage. That >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> $600,000 is not all mine. After overhead and the MD's share, I >> >>>>>>>> make around >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> $225-250,000. I recently interviewed an acupuncturist right >> >>>>>>>> out of school >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> and made her an offer that she accepted. Then in a couple of >> >>>>>>>> days when s/he >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> thought of what I was making started making noise for more >> >>>>>>>> money. It's a >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> shame. No track record at all, but some people think they are >> >>>>>>>> going to make >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> a million right out of school. I guess I'm going to have to >> >>>>>>>> continue >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> looking. Maybe it would be better to look for someone with the >> >>>>>>>> experience >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> of >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> reality. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> But getting back to the subject. While most of my patients >> >>>>>>>> come by word-of >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> mouth. I do keep my name in the public's eye continually. I >> >>>>>>>> buy radio, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> television, and newpaper time and that gets expensive. >> >>>>>>>> Yesterday I cut a >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> new >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> commercial at the local radio station. If one doesn't work or >> >>>>>>>> stops >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> working, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> I change it. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> When I look at your math, I see you are not thinking outside >> >>>>>>>> the box. You >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> think only acupuncture is in your scope of practice. I make >> >>>>>>>> $200-400 per >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> patient. And I do this by practicing in my complete scope of >> >>>>>>>> practice and I >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> lament that the schools do not teach what is in our scope. If >> >>>>>>>> they continue >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> to do that, these things will be taken out of our scope of >> >>>>>>>> practice. Again, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> I no longer share what I do with others. It is usually >> >>>>>>>> unappreciated and >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> ideas are stolen and then marketed as their own. No thank you. >> >>>>>>>> I'll teach >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> it, but I'll get a percentage of future earnings with a >> >>>>>>>> written contract. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sincerely, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Dr. Don J. Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> johnkokko (AT) gmail (DOT) com >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:40:23 -0800 >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Donald, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> You have written that you make $600 G/ year ... >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> is that with hiring other acupuncturists or other practitioners? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Did you take a practice mgmt course? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Doing the math, it would be very difficult to make that much $, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> even seeing 60 patients/ week at $100/tx = $300 G/ year. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> How do you do it? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> K >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Donald Snow <don83407 (AT) msn (DOT) >> >>>>>>>> com> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Private practice is very much better if you have the >> >>>>>>>>> patients. The sad >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> but >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> untold story is that many acupuncturists don't have the >> >>>>>>>>> patients to make >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> a >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> decent living. That is why the median income of an >> >>>>>>>>> acupuncturist is >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> around >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> $35,000/yr. However, for those of us that have the patients >> >>>>>>>>> to stay busy >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 8, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 10, 12 hours a day can and do make a nice living. For those >> >>>>>>>>> who don't or >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> can't generate a nice patient base, working for $50,000/yr is >> >>>>>>>>> a good >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> deal. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> However, there are some of us that can generate salaries that >> >>>>>>>>> exceed what >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> many MD's make. That is not the norm, and is on the other end >> >>>>>>>>> of the >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> scale. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Median is in between the high and the low and the mean will >> >>>>>>>>> be different >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> than the median. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> It comes down to who can and can't generate a large patient >> >>>>>>>>> base. If you >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> can't, take the salary and be happy. Actually, you will be >> >>>>>>>>> lucky to find >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> a >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> salaried position. They historically haven't been there for us. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Dr. Don Snow, DAOM, MPH, LAc >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. >> >>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Wed, 25 Feb 2009 17:58:07 -0800 >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I worked in a hospital based clinic in Colorado and all >> >>>>>>>>> master's level >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> licensees, including acupuncturists, received between $55,000 >> >>>>>>>>> and $65,000 >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> a >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> year depending on experience, plus generous benefits for >> >>>>>>>>> health care, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> education, retirement, etc. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> The main question is, do you get paid regardless of whether >> >>>>>>>>> the client >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> shows up or not. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Angela Pfaffenberger, Ph.D. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> angelapfa (AT) comcast (DOT) net <angelapfa%40comcas t.net> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> www.InnerhealthSale m.com >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Phone: 503 364 3022 >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> - >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Robert Chu >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine @. >> >>>>>>>>> com<Traditional_ >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Chinese_Medicine %40. com> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:11 PM >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Re: Salary For A Hired Acu? >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> $26.66 per hour when I worked at St. Vincent Hospital in Los >> >>>>>>>>> Angeles. It >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> was paltry. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> In private practice its much better. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Julie Ormonde <cariadanam@ >> >>>>>>>>> gmail. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> com<cariadanam% 40gmail.com>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Hi I have a job opportunity by an MD and she is wanting to >> >>>>>>>>>> know what a >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> typical salary/hourly rate for an acupuncturist is. I'd >> >>>>>>>>>> appreciate some >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> quick input! This is for Sacramento, Ca >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Julie >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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