Advice please - burning sensations in neck

[Guest guest]

I think it also wise to have an osteopath check her to rule out any nerve

difficulties in neck. This can be overlooked by docs at times.

Dr. Rick Kramer

 

Dr Kramer

773-747-8798

 

 

Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup

 

Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:53:45

<Chinese Medicine >

Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

 

Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning sensation

in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at night. She feels

'hot flashes' coming on at night also. She also gets headaches starting in

temples and moving to occiput. This has been occuring since December, upon

return from vacation. MD says it's stress. She doesn't want to do meds.

Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some yellow;

only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid (BPM 66) which is

confusing to me. She has tinnitus, gets dizzy, is afraid to be alone.

So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin deficiency. I

treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen and tonify Kidney

plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness.

May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also, whether you

agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much, everyone.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

That's a good idea. The burning sounds like a neck stinger. Maybe give

some TuiNa.

 

 

 

-

" Dr Kramer " <kramer

<Chinese Medicine >

Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:08 AM

Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

 

>I think it also wise to have an osteopath check her to rule out any nerve

>difficulties in neck. This can be overlooked by docs at times.

> Dr. Rick Kramer

>

> Dr Kramer

> 773-747-8798

>

>

> Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup

>

> Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:53:45

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Advice please - burning sensations in neck

>

>

> Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning

> sensation in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at

> night. She feels 'hot flashes' coming on at night also. She also gets

> headaches starting in temples and moving to occiput. This has been

> occuring since December, upon return from vacation. MD says it's stress.

> She doesn't want to do meds.

> Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some

> yellow; only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid

> (BPM 66) which is confusing to me. She has tinnitus, gets dizzy, is afraid

> to be alone.

> So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin

> deficiency. I treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen

> and tonify Kidney plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness.

> May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also,

> whether you agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much,

> everyone.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Kramer -

Thanks. I will consider that option.

However, I still would like others to comment from a TCM point of view. Thanks

everyone.

 

In Chinese Medicine , " Dr Kramer " <kramer wrote:

>

> I think it also wise to have an osteopath check her to rule out any nerve

difficulties in neck. This can be overlooked by docs at times.

> Dr. Rick Kramer

>

> Dr Kramer

> 773-747-8798

>

>

> Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup

>

> Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:53:45

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Advice please - burning sensations in neck

>

>

> Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning

sensation in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at night. She

feels 'hot flashes' coming on at night also. She also gets headaches starting in

temples and moving to occiput. This has been occuring since December, upon

return from vacation. MD says it's stress. She doesn't want to do meds.

> Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some yellow;

only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid (BPM 66) which is

confusing to me. She has tinnitus, gets dizzy, is afraid to be alone.

> So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin deficiency. I

treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen and tonify Kidney

plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness.

> May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also, whether

you agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much, everyone.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I learned from my teacher who was a prize student of van Buren (England) (stems

and branches fame) that we mustnt be afraid of the merger between east and west.

For example, let's say we are speaking of a disc problem, acupuncture is

contraindicated where tuina would be indicated. From the west we then go east

with our knowledge for the treatment. After dx is ruled out then we continue to

look at the whole picture. IMHO.

 

Dr Kramer

773-747-8798

 

 

Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup

 

Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:47:18

<Chinese Medicine >

Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

 

Dr. Kramer -

Thanks. I will consider that option.

However, I still would like others to comment from a TCM point of view. Thanks

everyone.

 

In Chinese Medicine , " Dr Kramer " <kramer wrote:

>

> I think it also wise to have an osteopath check her to rule out any nerve

difficulties in neck. This can be overlooked by docs at times.

> Dr. Rick Kramer

>

> Dr Kramer

> 773-747-8798

>

>

> Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup

>

> Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:53:45

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Advice please - burning sensations in neck

>

>

> Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning

sensation in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at night. She

feels 'hot flashes' coming on at night also. She also gets headaches starting in

temples and moving to occiput. This has been occuring since December, upon

return from vacation. MD says it's stress. She doesn't want to do meds.

> Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some yellow;

only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid (BPM 66) which is

confusing to me. She has tinnitus, gets dizzy, is afraid to be alone.

> So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin deficiency. I

treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen and tonify Kidney

plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness.

> May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also, whether

you agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much, everyone.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

 Hi. There is a lot of internal heat to clear gently, there may be strong

private emotional components. (Is she married, single, how is it going?)

  In my state law, patient confidentiality trumps almost everything. Confide in

you.

Tinnitus is almost always kidney channel involvement. K1-3-6.  Rub away

superficial vessels before hitting K1, and proceed neutrally, but like any other

point, clearly, with a small needle, and a depth of maybe 1/4 " , back it off a

little when qi comes . Also, how are her menses? Her dreams? It seems a high

emotional state, too early for the change, you know?

 If the pulses and tongue signs contradict, follow the tongue, more meaty. The

lack of real superficial activity in the pulses suggest an interior conflict.

 Gua sha the upper back and let heat off, it'll probably get red and hot

quickly. Use a cooling medium linament. And after that, put your needles in. 

There may be a little crisis here.

 Also as Dr Kramer suggested, follow up w a neurologist, if she can.

 In my experience, when the kidney channel is ready to clear, it'll do it

powerfully, so her confidence in your objectivity will help.

 Hope this helps. 

--- On Wed, 3/4/09, Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

wrote:

Mercurius Trismegistus <magisterium_magnum

Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 4:50 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a good idea. The burning sounds like a neck stinger. Maybe

give

 

some TuiNa.

 

 

 

-

 

" Dr Kramer " <kramer (AT) netvision (DOT) net.il>

 

<Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine >

 

Wednesday, March 04, 2009 7:08 AM

 

Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

 

 

>I think it also wise to have an osteopath check her to rule out any nerve

 

>difficulties in neck. This can be overlooked by docs at times.

 

> Dr. Rick Kramer

 

>

 

> Dr Kramer

 

> 773-747-8798

 

>

 

>

 

> Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ sbcglobal. net>

 

>

 

> Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:53:45

 

> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine >

 

> Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

>

 

>

 

> Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning

 

> sensation in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at

 

> night. She feels 'hot flashes' coming on at night also. She also gets

 

> headaches starting in temples and moving to occiput. This has been

 

> occuring since December, upon return from vacation. MD says it's stress.

 

> She doesn't want to do meds.

 

> Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some

 

> yellow; only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid

 

> (BPM 66) which is confusing to me. She has tinnitus, gets dizzy, is afraid

 

> to be alone.

 

> So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin

 

> deficiency. I treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen

 

> and tonify Kidney plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness.

 

> May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also,

 

> whether you agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much,

 

> everyone.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Kramer

You had come to a good diagnosis.........

Upper back, neck and shoulder are Yang, so it Yang problem, with burning

sensation ( heat ). At night worse ( Yin problem ) when lying down ( yin again

because no movement ), hotflash ( heat ).

Headache from the temple spreads to occiput ( from Shaoyang to Taiyang ).

Occurred in Dec ( Yin, cold ). Dizzines and tinnitus ( upper, Yang problem, wind

).

Ht and Lung pulses are soft ( deficiency, air only- Qi only or wind only.

This is Qi stagnation )

Red tongue ( heat ), geographic coating ( yin def ), yellow coat ( internal

heat )

 

ADD EVERYTHING UP, I come with : Liv Qi stagnation with the beginning turning

into fire. Fire has burned up yin causing geographic tongue coat, but it has not

caused any Kidney problem ( tinnitus and dizziness here are from Liver Wind

arising ).

Liv Yang uprising causing burning sensation along the Shaoyang channel. This

problem might occur during the winter ( not resolved ) traveled from Taiyang

channel ( Ub ) and went deeper into Shaoyang channel, not the other way

around... Because Yin ( pathogenic cold )still locked inside which causes at

night worse when lying down. Hot flash at night seems to be Yin deficiency, but

no symptom of Yin " this could be eliminated " ........... Dizziness, tinnitus

can be Yin deficiency with heat ( but heat symptom is not clear, this could be

eliminated also. So, there is wind " Liv Wind " )

Lu & Ht are soft mean deficiency, air only , Qi only. THis could be from

Liv Wind uprising from stagnation....... THis may not be a problem from

emotional " anger " because there was no chest nor hypochondriac discomfort. BUT

I think this was a cold from Taiyang traveled deeper into Shaoyang channel.

Geographic tongue can be a weak constitution or from drug, medication intake

because no signs of Yin deficiency.

 

I think : I would try to eliminate harmonize the Shaoyang and Taiyang channel

and smooth the Liv Qi, subdue the Liver Wind.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Dr Kramer " <kramer

wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> I think it also wise to have an osteopath check her to rule out any nerve

difficulties in neck. This can be overlooked by docs at times.

> Dr. Rick Kramer

>

> Dr Kramer

> 773-747-8798

>

>

> Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup

>

> Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:53:45

> <Chinese Medicine >

> Advice please - burning sensations in neck

>

>

> Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning

sensation in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at night. She

feels 'hot flashes' coming on at night also. She also gets headaches starting in

temples and moving to occiput. This has been occuring since December, upon

return from vacation. MD says it's stress. She doesn't want to do meds.

> Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some yellow;

only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid (BPM 66) which is

confusing to me. She has tinnitus, gets dizzy, is afraid to be alone.

> So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin deficiency. I

treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen and tonify Kidney

plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness.

> May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also, whether

you agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much, everyone.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sure, I thought about a shan han lun type progression. But no mention of a cold

or inner to outer transformation, or skipping steps. Yes it's winter here,

possibly a climactic vacation invasion. I'm not tied to an emotional content,

just bringing it up for consideration.   Obviously yin is taxed, to real heat.

Deal with the heat. I don't know. 

  ...  but heat symptom is not clear, this could be eliminated also. (how?) So,

there is wind " Liv Wind " (what is your basis for finding liver wind?) Lu & Ht

are soft mean deficiency, air only , Qi only.  (he said the lung and heart are

the predominant pulses, why do you say they are deficient?) THis could be

from Liv Wind uprising from stagnation.. ..... THis may not be a

problem from emotional " anger " because there was no chest nor

hypochondriac discomfort. (if the chest or hypochondriac pain was THE indicator

of emotional discomfort, like a bitter metalic taste in the mouth is for

shaoyang syndrome I'd agree. But these days emotional imbalance goes right to

the head. Dead on.)   BUT I think this was a cold from Taiyang

traveled deeper into Shaoyang channel. (So I say bring it out, gua sha. expose

the layers, and give support). I love your advice, DR. Nam. But I was aiming at

a new person, to feel comfortable w big issues. Please correct me, sincerely,

and gratefully, Fran.

 

--- On Wed, 3/4/09, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58

Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 11:38 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dr. Kramer

 

You had come to a good diagnosis... ......

 

Upper back, neck and shoulder are Yang, so it Yang problem, with burning

sensation ( heat ). At night worse ( Yin problem ) when lying down ( yin again

because no movement ), hotflash ( heat ).

 

Headache from the temple spreads to occiput ( from Shaoyang to Taiyang ).

Occurred in Dec ( Yin, cold ). Dizzines and tinnitus ( upper, Yang problem, wind

).

 

Ht and Lung pulses are soft ( deficiency, air only- Qi only or wind only.

This is Qi stagnation )

 

Red tongue ( heat ), geographic coating ( yin def ), yellow coat ( internal

heat )

 

 

 

ADD EVERYTHING UP, I come with : Liv Qi stagnation with the beginning turning

into fire. Fire has burned up yin causing geographic tongue coat, but it has not

caused any Kidney problem ( tinnitus and dizziness here are from Liver Wind

arising ).

 

Liv Yang uprising causing burning sensation along the Shaoyang channel. This

problem might occur during the winter ( not resolved ) traveled from Taiyang

channel ( Ub ) and went deeper into Shaoyang channel, not the other way

around... Because Yin ( pathogenic cold )still locked inside which causes at

night worse when lying down. Hot flash at night seems to be Yin deficiency, but

no symptom of Yin " this could be eliminated " ........... Dizziness, tinnitus

can be Yin deficiency with heat ( but heat symptom is not clear, this could be

eliminated also. So, there is wind " Liv Wind " )

 

Lu & Ht are soft mean deficiency, air only , Qi only. THis could be from

Liv Wind uprising from stagnation.. ..... THis may not be a problem from

emotional " anger " because there was no chest nor hypochondriac discomfort. BUT

I think this was a cold from Taiyang traveled deeper into Shaoyang channel.

 

Geographic tongue can be a weak constitution or from drug, medication intake

because no signs of Yin deficiency.

 

 

 

I think : I would try to eliminate harmonize the Shaoyang and Taiyang channel

and smooth the Liv Qi, subdue the Liver Wind.

 

 

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Dr Kramer " <kramer

wrote:

 

 

 

> I think it also wise to have an osteopath check her to rule out any nerve

difficulties in neck. This can be overlooked by docs at times.

 

> Dr. Rick Kramer

 

>

 

> Dr Kramer

 

> 773-747-8798

 

>

 

>

 

> Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ ...>

 

>

 

> Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:53:45

 

> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine >

 

> Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

>

 

>

 

> Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning

sensation in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at night. She

feels 'hot flashes' coming on at night also. She also gets headaches starting in

temples and moving to occiput. This has been occuring since December, upon

return from vacation. MD says it's stress. She doesn't want to do meds.

 

> Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some yellow;

only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid (BPM 66) which is

confusing to me. She has tinnitus, gets dizzy, is afraid to be alone.

 

> So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin deficiency. I

treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen and tonify Kidney

plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness.

 

> May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also, whether

you agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much, everyone.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

Again Dr. Nam, please, please correct me. Give me more of your insight. You know

I respect and listen to you. If I challenge, I do it respectfully, knowing how

much help you have been. Thanks, Fran

 

--- On Thu, 3/5/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote:

mystir <ykcul_ritsym

Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, March 5, 2009, 12:38 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sure, I thought about a shan han lun type progression. But no

mention of a cold or inner to outer transformation, or skipping steps. Yes it's

winter here, possibly a climactic vacation invasion. I'm not tied to an

emotional content, just bringing it up for consideration.   Obviously yin is

taxed, to real heat. Deal with the heat. I don't know. 

 

  ...  but heat symptom is not clear, this could be eliminated also. (how?) So,

there is wind " Liv Wind " (what is your basis for finding liver wind?) Lu & Ht

are soft mean deficiency, air only , Qi only.  (he said the lung and heart are

the predominant pulses, why do you say they are deficient?) THis could be

 

from Liv Wind uprising from stagnation.. ..... THis may not be a

 

problem from emotional " anger " because there was no chest nor

 

hypochondriac discomfort. (if the chest or hypochondriac pain was THE indicator

of emotional discomfort, like a bitter metalic taste in the mouth is for

shaoyang syndrome I'd agree. But these days emotional imbalance goes right to

the head. Dead on.)   BUT I think this was a cold from Taiyang

 

traveled deeper into Shaoyang channel. (So I say bring it out, gua sha. expose

the layers, and give support). I love your advice, DR. Nam. But I was aiming at

a new person, to feel comfortable w big issues. Please correct me, sincerely,

and gratefully, Fran.

 

 

 

--- On Wed, 3/4/09, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58@ > wrote:

 

dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58@ >

 

Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

 

 

Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 11:38 PM

 

 

 

Dr. Kramer

 

 

 

You had come to a good diagnosis... ......

 

 

 

Upper back, neck and shoulder are Yang, so it Yang problem, with burning

sensation ( heat ). At night worse ( Yin problem ) when lying down ( yin again

because no movement ), hotflash ( heat ).

 

 

 

Headache from the temple spreads to occiput ( from Shaoyang to Taiyang ).

Occurred in Dec ( Yin, cold ). Dizzines and tinnitus ( upper, Yang problem, wind

).

 

 

 

Ht and Lung pulses are soft ( deficiency, air only- Qi only or wind only. This

is Qi stagnation )

 

 

 

Red tongue ( heat ), geographic coating ( yin def ), yellow coat ( internal heat

)

 

 

 

ADD EVERYTHING UP, I come with : Liv Qi stagnation with the beginning turning

into fire. Fire has burned up yin causing geographic tongue coat, but it has not

caused any Kidney problem ( tinnitus and dizziness here are from Liver Wind

arising ).

 

 

 

Liv Yang uprising causing burning sensation along the Shaoyang channel. This

problem might occur during the winter ( not resolved ) traveled from Taiyang

channel ( Ub ) and went deeper into Shaoyang channel, not the other way

around... Because Yin ( pathogenic cold )still locked inside which causes at

night worse when lying down. Hot flash at night seems to be Yin deficiency, but

no symptom of Yin " this could be eliminated " ........... Dizziness, tinnitus

can be Yin deficiency with heat ( but heat symptom is not clear, this could be

eliminated also. So, there is wind " Liv Wind " )

 

 

 

Lu & Ht are soft mean deficiency, air only , Qi only. THis could be from Liv

Wind uprising from stagnation.. ..... THis may not be a problem from emotional "

anger " because there was no chest nor hypochondriac discomfort. BUT I think

this was a cold from Taiyang traveled deeper into Shaoyang channel.

 

 

 

Geographic tongue can be a weak constitution or from drug, medication intake

because no signs of Yin deficiency.

 

 

 

I think : I would try to eliminate harmonize the Shaoyang and Taiyang channel

and smooth the Liv Qi, subdue the Liver Wind.

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Dr Kramer " <kramer

wrote:

 

 

 

> I think it also wise to have an osteopath check her to rule out any nerve

difficulties in neck. This can be overlooked by docs at times.

 

 

 

> Dr. Rick Kramer

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Dr Kramer

 

 

 

> 773-747-8798

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ ...>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:53:45

 

 

 

> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine >

 

 

 

> Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

> Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning

sensation in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at night. She

feels 'hot flashes' coming on at night also. She also gets headaches starting in

temples and moving to occiput. This has been occuring since December, upon

return from vacation. MD says it's stress. She doesn't want to do meds.

 

 

 

> Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some yellow;

only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid (BPM 66) which is

confusing to me. She has tinnitus, gets dizzy, is afraid to be alone.

 

 

 

> So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin deficiency. I

treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen and tonify Kidney

plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness.

 

 

 

> May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also, whether

you agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much, everyone.

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

 

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , " Nancy Corsaro "

<eastwestacup wrote:

 

 

Hi Nancy,

thanks for sharing this with us and for reminding us that people are often

confusing to us, and themselves, and can have a number of co-existing patterns.

Seems to me you're on track already.

 

I chopped and changed your history around, so I can respond in a reasonably

succinct fashion.

 

" Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning

sensation in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at night. "

" She also gets headaches starting in temples and moving to occiput. This has

been occuring since December, upon return from vacation. "

" She has tinnitus, gets dizzy "

 

Worse lying down at night, may suggest a positional etiology, and not

necessarily always a yin-related condition.

Does the condition occur when she is upright and doing things at night?

Does lying down in the daytime make the sensation occur? I'd be looking at a

neuro-skeletal [ structural ] problem as a possibility, if that's the case.

The headaches may be part of whatever is causing the burning sensation, so too

the dizziness and tinnitus.

Is there a history of any neck injury, whiplash, jolt, trauma etc?

 

What did this lady do during her vacation? Did she have a good time?

Action, thrills and spills, or total luxurious inertia? A dreadful pillow and

bed? A long cramped flight? A stressful family reunion?

A relationship break-up? A holiday romance gone wrong?

How was the weather? How exposed was your patient to the elements?

 

Whatever's been happening before-during-after the holiday must be relevant.

 

We can't discount the possibility an external pathogen lodged in her channels,

possibly compounding a pre-existing, but not evident problem in the anatomy of

the neck +/- thoracic spine; others might also be wondering about the alignment

of the pelvis, sacrum, cranial bones etc.

 

" She feels 'hot flashes' coming on at night also. MD says it's stress. She

doesn't want to do meds. "

 

Did the hot flashes start occurring at the same time, subsequent to the holiday,

or before?

What did she tell the MD, to make him/her suggest stress is the reason for her

condition?

I'm wondering if the 'hot flashes' are similar to the physical signs and

symptoms of panic attack?

 

" Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some yellow "

Tongue signs may [or may not] be long-term, and not just of the last 3 months.

Did you know her before this presentation? Has the lady noticed if her tongue is

different than before the holiday?

 

" Only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid (BPM 66) which

is confusing to me "

 

Is it possible that the pulses in the cun positions [upper jiao], are reflecting

what is going on in her head, neck, upper back, shoulders?

Slow /moderate pulse rate - a person who has good cardio-vascular fitness? A

medication which slows heart rate? A cold condition?

 

" Is afraid to be alone. "

Interesting to us, and sad for her.

Emotions associated with Heart? Pericardium? Spleen? Kidney? Lung?

How long has she felt like this?

 

What do you see, sense, and feel while you are with this lady?

 

" So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin deficiency. I

treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen and tonify Kidney

plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness. "

" May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also, whether

you agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much, everyone. "

 

I might approach this lady by:

Suggesting a thorough review of her musculo-skeletal system, and related blood

vessels and nervous system tissues [by another MD or a good osteopath]

and

continuing to help alleviate pain and discomfort in her upper body, head and

neck, by gently clearing any excess and moving qi in her channels

and

calming the Shen and promoting sleep

and

then see what reveals itself, and how the lady progresses.

No need to try and do everything at once; she's more likely to keep coming if

you can get her out of pain whilst gradually addressing root/constitutional and

emotional factors, which at this point, seem to be more deficient that excess.

 

Blimey, so much for a succinct answer

Hope this didn't confuse us more!

 

Margi

[Guest guest]

It appears that this is an acute disorder according to the history and that such

disorders tend to be caused most likely from pathogens or trauma. Where did

this person go on vacation or did they overdo things and develop a trauma? We

often think of pathogens as coming from a under-developed area and fail to

recognize that we have outbreaks of things in this country almost daily.

Problems of the neck can be caused by many things, sometimes secondary to others

like swelling in the neck may put pressure upon other structures or limit the

flow of qi, blood and lymph into and out of an area. There is a section in

Kiiko Matsumoto's text, Clinical Strategies vol 2 on page 70, that discusses

nasopharyngitis and its long lasting effects on our lives. I have found that in

many people, the immune system is affecting a part of their presentation. Also

of note, is mentioning of point CV 12 + 13 = upper spinal problems and CV 12 +

10 for lower on page 150 of her same text. Points are held to confirm painful

reduction and then needled in same direction and depth that lessened tenderness.

I do not wish to limit this great discussion simply to the acute presentation

but many times patients will feel better when proper channel functioning is

restored. Then it makes sense to tonify residual deficiencies otherwise we can

create stagnation. Hope this is helpful.

 

Michael W. Bowser, LAc

Chinese Medicine

margi.macdonald

Thu, 5 Mar 2009 12:33:51 +0000

Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Nancy Corsaro "

<eastwestacup wrote:

 

 

 

Hi Nancy,

 

thanks for sharing this with us and for reminding us that people are often

confusing to us, and themselves, and can have a number of co-existing patterns.

 

Seems to me you're on track already.

 

 

 

I chopped and changed your history around, so I can respond in a reasonably

succinct fashion.

 

 

 

" Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning

sensation in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at night. "

 

" She also gets headaches starting in temples and moving to occiput. This has

been occuring since December, upon return from vacation. "

 

" She has tinnitus, gets dizzy "

 

 

 

Worse lying down at night, may suggest a positional etiology, and not

necessarily always a yin-related condition.

 

Does the condition occur when she is upright and doing things at night?

 

Does lying down in the daytime make the sensation occur? I'd be looking at a

neuro-skeletal [ structural ] problem as a possibility, if that's the case.

 

The headaches may be part of whatever is causing the burning sensation, so too

the dizziness and tinnitus.

 

Is there a history of any neck injury, whiplash, jolt, trauma etc?

 

 

 

What did this lady do during her vacation? Did she have a good time?

 

Action, thrills and spills, or total luxurious inertia? A dreadful pillow and

bed? A long cramped flight? A stressful family reunion?

 

A relationship break-up? A holiday romance gone wrong?

 

How was the weather? How exposed was your patient to the elements?

 

 

 

Whatever's been happening before-during-after the holiday must be relevant.

 

 

 

We can't discount the possibility an external pathogen lodged in her channels,

possibly compounding a pre-existing, but not evident problem in the anatomy of

the neck +/- thoracic spine; others might also be wondering about the alignment

of the pelvis, sacrum, cranial bones etc.

 

 

 

" She feels 'hot flashes' coming on at night also. MD says it's stress. She

doesn't want to do meds. "

 

 

 

Did the hot flashes start occurring at the same time, subsequent to the holiday,

or before?

 

What did she tell the MD, to make him/her suggest stress is the reason for her

condition?

 

I'm wondering if the 'hot flashes' are similar to the physical signs and

symptoms of panic attack?

 

 

 

" Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some yellow "

 

Tongue signs may [or may not] be long-term, and not just of the last 3 months.

Did you know her before this presentation? Has the lady noticed if her tongue is

different than before the holiday?

 

 

 

" Only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid (BPM 66) which

is confusing to me "

 

 

 

Is it possible that the pulses in the cun positions [upper jiao], are reflecting

what is going on in her head, neck, upper back, shoulders?

 

Slow /moderate pulse rate - a person who has good cardio-vascular fitness? A

medication which slows heart rate? A cold condition?

 

 

 

" Is afraid to be alone. "

 

Interesting to us, and sad for her.

 

Emotions associated with Heart? Pericardium? Spleen? Kidney? Lung?

 

How long has she felt like this?

 

 

 

What do you see, sense, and feel while you are with this lady?

 

 

 

" So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin deficiency. I

treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen and tonify Kidney

plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness. "

 

" May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also, whether

you agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much, everyone. "

 

 

 

I might approach this lady by:

 

Suggesting a thorough review of her musculo-skeletal system, and related blood

vessels and nervous system tissues [by another MD or a good osteopath]

 

and

 

continuing to help alleviate pain and discomfort in her upper body, head and

neck, by gently clearing any excess and moving qi in her channels

 

and

 

calming the Shen and promoting sleep

 

and

 

then see what reveals itself, and how the lady progresses.

 

No need to try and do everything at once; she's more likely to keep coming if

you can get her out of pain whilst gradually addressing root/constitutional and

emotional factors, which at this point, seem to be more deficient that excess.

 

 

 

Blimey, so much for a succinct answer

 

Hope this didn't confuse us more!

 

 

 

Margi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®.

http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_WL_\

HM_express_032009#colortheme

 

 

[Guest guest]

Agree w/ Dr. Kramer. I'm curious what type of MD was it who said it was

" Stress " ? (GP or orthopedist, neuro?) Did this MD perform physical exams?

what were the orthopedic & neuro findings? any MRI/CT? After there is

clarity on the injury or lesion causing the pain, or if there is no apparent

trauma or lesion, that will also inform your TCM Dx, Tx, and prognosis. This

is very important.

 

If you are not comfortable performing these phys exams yourself, then it is

important to refer patient for further workup by sports

medicine/orthopedic/neuro specialist, etc... But the workup need to be

done. Even if you just do simple reflex test (bicep/tricep/brachialis) in

your office, that will tell you if it is a CNS or PNS/nerve root problem

which will already inform your acup tx strategy hugely! Here in California,

L.Ac.s are primary care, so when such a patient comes to our office, we are

supposed to perform phys exam (eastern & western) order MRI/CTs/Lab work as

appropriate. And if there is something suspicious or more complex, we refer

to specialist. But it is critical not to just overlook the

western/conventional medical steps in evaluating this patient and skip right

to LV Yang rising or KD Yin Xu.

 

In Dx and selecting acupoints, one must consider both root and branch. In a

way your TCM Pattern Dx can be like the root, and your Western Dx (as well

as TCM Channel Locaiton) are the branches. Good results depend on this

clarity of thinking. and an acute pain patient wants fast relief! Most

importantly --- Pain worse while laying down at night is suspicious of

cancer. This must be ruled out.

 

Even though we are TCM practitioners, medicine is medicine and we have

ethical responsibility to support patients in getting the best of East and

West. Here is a case where patient may not have gotten proper Western

medicine workup, and would benefit enormously from it.

 

Best of luck! Hope this helps.

 

~edith

 

 

--

Edith Chan, L.Ac.

Doctoral Fellow

www.DanTianWellness.com

Office: 415.668.1880 - Mobile: 415.298.5324

 

 

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Dr Kramer <kramer wrote:

 

> I learned from my teacher who was a prize student of van Buren (England)

> (stems and branches fame) that we mustnt be afraid of the merger between

> east and west. For example, let's say we are speaking of a disc problem,

> acupuncture is contraindicated where tuina would be indicated. From the west

> we then go east with our knowledge for the treatment. After dx is ruled out

> then we continue to look at the whole picture. IMHO.

>

> Dr Kramer

> 773-747-8798

>

>

> Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup<eastwestacup%40sbcglobal.net>>

>

>

> Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:47:18

> To:

<Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yah\

oogroups.com>>

>

> Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

>

>

> Dr. Kramer -

> Thanks. I will consider that option.

> However, I still would like others to comment from a TCM point of view.

> Thanks everyone.

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Nancy.You've received a large spectrum of sound advice. Please let us know

the outcome. Thanks.

 

--- On Thu, 3/5/09, Edith Chan, L.Ac. <chineseherbs wrote:

Edith Chan, L.Ac. <chineseherbs

Re: Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, March 5, 2009, 1:45 PM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agree w/ Dr. Kramer. I'm curious what type of MD was it who said it

was

 

" Stress " ? (GP or orthopedist, neuro?) Did this MD perform physical exams?

 

what were the orthopedic & neuro findings? any MRI/CT? After there is

 

clarity on the injury or lesion causing the pain, or if there is no apparent

 

trauma or lesion, that will also inform your TCM Dx, Tx, and prognosis. This

 

is very important.

 

 

 

If you are not comfortable performing these phys exams yourself, then it is

 

important to refer patient for further workup by sports

 

medicine/orthopedic /neuro specialist, etc... But the workup need to be

 

done. Even if you just do simple reflex test (bicep/tricep/ brachialis) in

 

your office, that will tell you if it is a CNS or PNS/nerve root problem

 

which will already inform your acup tx strategy hugely! Here in California,

 

L.Ac.s are primary care, so when such a patient comes to our office, we are

 

supposed to perform phys exam (eastern & western) order MRI/CTs/Lab work as

 

appropriate. And if there is something suspicious or more complex, we refer

 

to specialist. But it is critical not to just overlook the

 

western/conventiona l medical steps in evaluating this patient and skip right

 

to LV Yang rising or KD Yin Xu.

 

 

 

In Dx and selecting acupoints, one must consider both root and branch. In a

 

way your TCM Pattern Dx can be like the root, and your Western Dx (as well

 

as TCM Channel Locaiton) are the branches. Good results depend on this

 

clarity of thinking. and an acute pain patient wants fast relief! Most

 

importantly --- Pain worse while laying down at night is suspicious of

 

cancer. This must be ruled out.

 

 

 

Even though we are TCM practitioners, medicine is medicine and we have

 

ethical responsibility to support patients in getting the best of East and

 

West. Here is a case where patient may not have gotten proper Western

 

medicine workup, and would benefit enormously from it.

 

 

 

Best of luck! Hope this helps.

 

 

 

~edith

 

 

 

--

 

Edith Chan, L.Ac.

 

Doctoral Fellow

 

www.DanTianWellness .com

 

Office: 415.668.1880 - Mobile: 415.298.5324

 

 

 

On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Dr Kramer <kramer (AT) netvision (DOT) net.il> wrote:

 

 

 

> I learned from my teacher who was a prize student of van Buren (England)

 

> (stems and branches fame) that we mustnt be afraid of the merger between

 

> east and west. For example, let's say we are speaking of a disc problem,

 

> acupuncture is contraindicated where tuina would be indicated. From the west

 

> we then go east with our knowledge for the treatment. After dx is ruled out

 

> then we continue to look at the whole picture. IMHO.

 

>

 

> Dr Kramer

 

> 773-747-8798

 

>

 

>

 

> Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ sbcglobal. net<eastwestacup% 40sbcglobal.

net>>

 

>

 

>

 

> Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:47:18

 

> <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine <Traditional_

Chinese_Medicine %40. com>>

 

>

 

> Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

>

 

>

 

> Dr. Kramer -

 

> Thanks. I will consider that option.

 

> However, I still would like others to comment from a TCM point of view.

 

> Thanks everyone.

 

>

 

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Fran,

I guess your questions about Liv Wind, Ht and Lu soft pulses.

THere could be a number of causes, but I tried to eliminate all if

possible...........

First was heat ( red tongue and geographic coating = Yin def ), there was no

heat symptoms, heat is eliminated. Beside, the pulse 66 can be a confirmation.

Yin deficiency is not applicable because there is no yin symptoms and no signs

of Yin deficiency, except the tongue ( this could be from medication intake ).

I think that the Taiyang channel was invaded in the winter by the pathogenic

Qi ( damp , cold or wind ) and penetrated the super layer. It was locked in the

meridians. This could be cold, but there was no cold symptoms. Cold is

eliminated. This could be damp, but there was no sign of damp. The only one left

is wind............ This cold wind attacked the body, but the cold was light so

there was no signs of fever and chills ( The true Qi did not have to fight with

cold, so there is no fever ). There was no organs attacked ( no running noses,

no cough... ), this was a mild attacked because the patient constitution was

weak, not the weather.......... This pathogenic wind was locked inside traveled

deeper into the Shaoyang channel ( Gallbladder ). If it was Taiyang channel why

didn't it attack the SI channel and travel through Shaoyang channel, Sanjiao? If

it was heat or dryness ( yang attack yang ) then it attacked the upper ( Yang

channels SI and Sanjiao ).... Because this was wind cold, its way from the

bottom ( Foot channel UB and GB ).

Burning sensation of pain feel like a sharp pain or shooting pain. Because

of its pain is so sharp it could be interpreted as burning sensation.........

Wind is strong and quick.

Heart and Lung are palpable soft....... Soft mean only liquid, not nutrient

in it..... If the blood plasma is clear which means there is no oxygen and no

nutrient in the blood, then the patient must be pale ( no oxygen damp only, but

no sign of damp ), cold, hypotention....... So I interpreted this as empty pulse

with full of Qi ( wind from Wind symptoms )......... Heart and Lung are

upperjiao ( attacked by yang ). Because it was not the Prime Qi, so there is no

strong nor forceful , nor firm Qi. This is a pseudo Qi ( pathogenic Qi ).....

OTher positions are not easy to palpate because of weak constitution.

 

ALL OF THE ABOVE WAS JUST ONE CORNER OF ONE VIEW, SO PLEASE DO NOT TAKE IT

SERIOUSLY. BUT IT IS AT LEAST ANOTHER VIEW BEFORE APPROACHING A DIAGNOSIS.

If this is my case, I would first moxa S36 ( tonify main Qi ) to prevent the

pathogenic Qi to get deeper. Next, G 20 ( could be sedated ), and Taiyang could

be bled........... Guasha may help........ NO herbs needed in this case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , mystir <ykcul_ritsym

wrote:

>

> Again Dr. Nam, please, please correct me. Give me more of your insight. You

know I respect and listen to you. If I challenge, I do it respectfully, knowing

how much help you have been. Thanks, Fran

>

> --- On Thu, 3/5/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym wrote:

> mystir <ykcul_ritsym

> Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

> Chinese Medicine

> Thursday, March 5, 2009, 12:38 AM

>

>

>

>

>

>

Sure, I thought about a shan han lun type progression. But no

mention of a cold or inner to outer transformation, or skipping steps. Yes it's

winter here, possibly a climactic vacation invasion. I'm not tied to an

emotional content, just bringing it up for consideration. Obviously yin is

taxed, to real heat. Deal with the heat. I don't know.

>

> ... but heat symptom is not clear, this could be eliminated also. (how?)

So, there is wind " Liv Wind " (what is your basis for finding liver wind?) Lu &

Ht are soft mean deficiency, air only , Qi only. (he said the lung and heart

are the predominant pulses, why do you say they are deficient?) THis could be

>

> from Liv Wind uprising from stagnation.. ..... THis may not be a

>

> problem from emotional " anger " because there was no chest nor

>

> hypochondriac discomfort. (if the chest or hypochondriac pain was THE

indicator of emotional discomfort, like a bitter metalic taste in the mouth is

for shaoyang syndrome I'd agree. But these days emotional imbalance goes right

to the head. Dead on.) BUT I think this was a cold from Taiyang

>

> traveled deeper into Shaoyang channel. (So I say bring it out, gua sha. expose

the layers, and give support). I love your advice, DR. Nam. But I was aiming at

a new person, to feel comfortable w big issues. Please correct me, sincerely,

and gratefully, Fran.

>

>

>

> --- On Wed, 3/4/09, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58@ > wrote:

>

> dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58@ >

>

> Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

>

>

>

> Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 11:38 PM

>

>

>

> Dr. Kramer

>

>

>

> You had come to a good diagnosis... ......

>

>

>

> Upper back, neck and shoulder are Yang, so it Yang problem, with burning

sensation ( heat ). At night worse ( Yin problem ) when lying down ( yin again

because no movement ), hotflash ( heat ).

>

>

>

> Headache from the temple spreads to occiput ( from Shaoyang to Taiyang ).

Occurred in Dec ( Yin, cold ). Dizzines and tinnitus ( upper, Yang problem, wind

).

>

>

>

> Ht and Lung pulses are soft ( deficiency, air only- Qi only or wind only. This

is Qi stagnation )

>

>

>

> Red tongue ( heat ), geographic coating ( yin def ), yellow coat ( internal

heat )

>

>

>

> ADD EVERYTHING UP, I come with : Liv Qi stagnation with the beginning turning

into fire. Fire has burned up yin causing geographic tongue coat, but it has not

caused any Kidney problem ( tinnitus and dizziness here are from Liver Wind

arising ).

>

>

>

> Liv Yang uprising causing burning sensation along the Shaoyang channel. This

problem might occur during the winter ( not resolved ) traveled from Taiyang

channel ( Ub ) and went deeper into Shaoyang channel, not the other way

around... Because Yin ( pathogenic cold )still locked inside which causes at

night worse when lying down. Hot flash at night seems to be Yin deficiency, but

no symptom of Yin " this could be eliminated " ........... Dizziness, tinnitus

can be Yin deficiency with heat ( but heat symptom is not clear, this could be

eliminated also. So, there is wind " Liv Wind " )

>

>

>

> Lu & Ht are soft mean deficiency, air only , Qi only. THis could be from Liv

Wind uprising from stagnation.. ..... THis may not be a problem from emotional "

anger " because there was no chest nor hypochondriac discomfort. BUT I think

this was a cold from Taiyang traveled deeper into Shaoyang channel.

>

>

>

> Geographic tongue can be a weak constitution or from drug, medication intake

because no signs of Yin deficiency.

>

>

>

> I think : I would try to eliminate harmonize the Shaoyang and Taiyang channel

and smooth the Liv Qi, subdue the Liver Wind.

>

>

>

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Dr Kramer " <kramer@>

wrote:

>

>

>

> > I think it also wise to have an osteopath check her to rule out any nerve

difficulties in neck. This can be overlooked by docs at times.

>

>

>

> > Dr. Rick Kramer

>

>

>

> >

>

>

>

> > Dr Kramer

>

>

>

> > 773-747-8798

>

>

>

> >

>

>

>

> >

>

>

>

> > Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ ...>

>

>

>

> >

>

>

>

> > Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:53:45

>

>

>

> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine >

>

>

>

> > Advice please - burning sensations in neck

>

>

>

> >

>

>

>

> >

>

>

>

> > Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning

sensation in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at night. She

feels 'hot flashes' coming on at night also. She also gets headaches starting in

temples and moving to occiput. This has been occuring since December, upon

return from vacation. MD says it's stress. She doesn't want to do meds.

>

>

>

> > Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some

yellow; only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid (BPM 66)

which is confusing to me. She has tinnitus, gets dizzy, is afraid to be alone.

>

>

>

> > So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin deficiency.

I treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen and tonify Kidney

plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness.

>

>

>

> > May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also, whether

you agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much, everyone.

>

>

>

> >

>

>

>

> >

>

>

>

> >

>

>

>

> >

>

>

>

> >

[Guest guest]

I don't know, I was only speculating. Also trying to make the person who asked,

feel comfortable if there was emotional uh, difficulties. I wouldn't be able to

say for sure anything. Face to face with a person, a million things are

answered, telemedicine or not.

 All that you say is very logical and possibly elegant, but for us both, just

theory until we make rounds together.  And there's lots of ways to approach the

same problem, part anatomical, part psychical. Some people like the white coat,

others like the sweat lodge, some like both. Thanks Dr. Nam.

 

--- On Fri, 3/6/09, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58 wrote:

dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58

Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

Chinese Medicine

Friday, March 6, 2009, 12:33 AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fran,

 

I guess your questions about Liv Wind, Ht and Lu soft pulses.

 

THere could be a number of causes, but I tried to eliminate all if

possible.... .......

 

First was heat ( red tongue and geographic coating = Yin def ), there was no

heat symptoms, heat is eliminated. Beside, the pulse 66 can be a confirmation.

Yin deficiency is not applicable because there is no yin symptoms and no signs

of Yin deficiency, except the tongue ( this could be from medication intake ).

 

I think that the Taiyang channel was invaded in the winter by the pathogenic

Qi ( damp , cold or wind ) and penetrated the super layer. It was locked in the

meridians. This could be cold, but there was no cold symptoms. Cold is

eliminated. This could be damp, but there was no sign of damp. The only one left

is wind........ .... This cold wind attacked the body, but the cold was light so

there was no signs of fever and chills ( The true Qi did not have to fight with

cold, so there is no fever ). There was no organs attacked ( no running noses,

no cough... ), this was a mild attacked because the patient constitution was

weak, not the weather..... ..... This pathogenic wind was locked inside traveled

deeper into the Shaoyang channel ( Gallbladder ). If it was Taiyang channel why

didn't it attack the SI channel and travel through Shaoyang channel, Sanjiao? If

it was heat or dryness ( yang attack yang ) then it attacked the upper ( Yang

channels SI and

Sanjiao ).... Because this was wind cold, its way from the bottom ( Foot

channel UB and GB ).

 

Burning sensation of pain feel like a sharp pain or shooting pain. Because

of its pain is so sharp it could be interpreted as burning sensation... ......

Wind is strong and quick.

 

Heart and Lung are palpable soft....... Soft mean only liquid, not nutrient

in it..... If the blood plasma is clear which means there is no oxygen and no

nutrient in the blood, then the patient must be pale ( no oxygen damp only, but

no sign of damp ), cold, hypotention. ...... So I interpreted this as empty

pulse with full of Qi ( wind from Wind symptoms )......... Heart and Lung are

upperjiao ( attacked by yang ). Because it was not the Prime Qi, so there is no

strong nor forceful , nor firm Qi. This is a pseudo Qi ( pathogenic Qi ).....

OTher positions are not easy to palpate because of weak constitution.

 

 

 

ALL OF THE ABOVE WAS JUST ONE CORNER OF ONE VIEW, SO PLEASE DO NOT TAKE IT

SERIOUSLY. BUT IT IS AT LEAST ANOTHER VIEW BEFORE APPROACHING A DIAGNOSIS.

 

If this is my case, I would first moxa S36 ( tonify main Qi ) to prevent the

pathogenic Qi to get deeper. Next, G 20 ( could be sedated ), and Taiyang could

be bled........ ... Guasha may help........ NO herbs needed in this case.

 

 

 

Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , mystir <ykcul_ritsym@

....> wrote:

 

>

 

> Again Dr. Nam, please, please correct me. Give me more of your insight. You

know I respect and listen to you. If I challenge, I do it respectfully, knowing

how much help you have been. Thanks, Fran

 

>

 

> --- On Thu, 3/5/09, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ ...> wrote:

 

> mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ ...>

 

> Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

>

 

> Thursday, March 5, 2009, 12:38 AM

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Sure, I thought about a shan han lun type progression. But no

mention of a cold or inner to outer transformation, or skipping steps. Yes it's

winter here, possibly a climactic vacation invasion. I'm not tied to an

emotional content, just bringing it up for consideration. Obviously yin is

taxed, to real heat. Deal with the heat. I don't know.

 

>

 

> ... but heat symptom is not clear, this could be eliminated also. (how?)

So, there is wind " Liv Wind " (what is your basis for finding liver wind?) Lu &

Ht are soft mean deficiency, air only , Qi only. (he said the lung and heart

are the predominant pulses, why do you say they are deficient?) THis could be

 

>

 

> from Liv Wind uprising from stagnation.. ..... THis may not be a

 

>

 

> problem from emotional " anger " because there was no chest nor

 

>

 

> hypochondriac discomfort. (if the chest or hypochondriac pain was THE

indicator of emotional discomfort, like a bitter metalic taste in the mouth is

for shaoyang syndrome I'd agree. But these days emotional imbalance goes right

to the head. Dead on.) BUT I think this was a cold from Taiyang

 

>

 

> traveled deeper into Shaoyang channel. (So I say bring it out, gua sha. expose

the layers, and give support). I love your advice, DR. Nam. But I was aiming at

a new person, to feel comfortable w big issues. Please correct me, sincerely,

and gratefully, Fran.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> --- On Wed, 3/4/09, dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58@ > wrote:

 

>

 

> dr_namnguyen58 <dr_namnguyen58@ >

 

>

 

> Re: Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Wednesday, March 4, 2009, 11:38 PM

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Dr. Kramer

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> You had come to a good diagnosis... ......

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Upper back, neck and shoulder are Yang, so it Yang problem, with burning

sensation ( heat ). At night worse ( Yin problem ) when lying down ( yin again

because no movement ), hotflash ( heat ).

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Headache from the temple spreads to occiput ( from Shaoyang to Taiyang ).

Occurred in Dec ( Yin, cold ). Dizzines and tinnitus ( upper, Yang problem, wind

).

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Ht and Lung pulses are soft ( deficiency, air only- Qi only or wind only. This

is Qi stagnation )

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Red tongue ( heat ), geographic coating ( yin def ), yellow coat ( internal

heat )

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> ADD EVERYTHING UP, I come with : Liv Qi stagnation with the beginning turning

into fire. Fire has burned up yin causing geographic tongue coat, but it has not

caused any Kidney problem ( tinnitus and dizziness here are from Liver Wind

arising ).

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Liv Yang uprising causing burning sensation along the Shaoyang channel. This

problem might occur during the winter ( not resolved ) traveled from Taiyang

channel ( Ub ) and went deeper into Shaoyang channel, not the other way

around... Because Yin ( pathogenic cold )still locked inside which causes at

night worse when lying down. Hot flash at night seems to be Yin deficiency, but

no symptom of Yin " this could be eliminated " ........... Dizziness, tinnitus

can be Yin deficiency with heat ( but heat symptom is not clear, this could be

eliminated also. So, there is wind " Liv Wind " )

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Lu & Ht are soft mean deficiency, air only , Qi only. THis could be from Liv

Wind uprising from stagnation.. ..... THis may not be a problem from emotional "

anger " because there was no chest nor hypochondriac discomfort. BUT I think

this was a cold from Taiyang traveled deeper into Shaoyang channel.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Geographic tongue can be a weak constitution or from drug, medication intake

because no signs of Yin deficiency.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> I think : I would try to eliminate harmonize the Shaoyang and Taiyang channel

and smooth the Liv Qi, subdue the Liver Wind.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine , " Dr Kramer " <kramer@>

wrote:

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > I think it also wise to have an osteopath check her to rule out any nerve

difficulties in neck. This can be overlooked by docs at times.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > Dr. Rick Kramer

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > Dr Kramer

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > 773-747-8798

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > Nancy Corsaro <eastwestacup@ ...>

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:53:45

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > <Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine >

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > Advice please - burning sensations in neck

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> >

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > Need treatment advice for female, age 34, with electrical-like burning

sensation in back of neck, shoulders, upper back; worse lying down at night. She

feels 'hot flashes' coming on at night also. She also gets headaches starting in

temples and moving to occiput. This has been occuring since December, upon

return from vacation. MD says it's stress. She doesn't want to do meds.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > Tongue - very red, small cracks everywhere, geographic coating w/some

yellow; only Lu and HT pulses can be felt and they are soft; not rapid (BPM 66)

which is confusing to me. She has tinnitus, gets dizzy, is afraid to be alone.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > So I'm thinking Liver Yang rising due to Liv/Ki def, and ST yin deficiency.

I treated with acu to bring down Yang, clear heat, calm Shen and tonify Kidney

plus some local points for shoulder/neck tenderness.

 

>

 

>

 

>

 

> > May I have some ideas on acupuncture approach and also herbal? Also, whether

you agree or disagree with my diagnosis? Thanks so much, everyone.

 

>

 

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