Guest guest Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Thanks everyone for the very beneficial discussion. In light of several comments like Marian's that " animal products add nothing beneficial to the human diet " , I was wondering what folks think of the observations of Weston A. Price (www.westonaprice.org) and how that squares with CM, if at all? David Toone, L.Ac. On Feb 8, 2008, at 12:47 AM, Marian Blum, L.Ac., DNBAO wrote: > Animal products add nothing beneficial to the > human diet that can't be found in plant foods (except vitamin B-12 > which is made by bacteria). That said, I imagine there are some > people, not many, who may do better consuming a small amount of > animal products. Perhaps TCM helps us determine who they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 i greatly appreciate this open discussion of the merits of the vegan diet and the absence of the bashing that usually takes place in a tcm discussion of veganism. many thanks, kath On Feb 8, 2008 11:32 AM, David Toone <david wrote: > Thanks everyone for the very beneficial discussion. In light of > several comments like Marian's that " animal products add nothing > beneficial to the human diet " , I was wondering what folks think of > the observations of Weston A. Price (www.westonaprice.org) and how > that squares with CM, if at all? > > David Toone, L.Ac. > > On Feb 8, 2008, at 12:47 AM, Marian Blum, L.Ac., DNBAO wrote: > > > Animal products add nothing beneficial to the > > human diet that can't be found in plant foods (except vitamin B-12 > > which is made by bacteria). That said, I imagine there are some > > people, not many, who may do better consuming a small amount of > > animal products. Perhaps TCM helps us determine who they are. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 I know this discussion has gone on a long time now, but I wanted to add one last thing. It seems to me that a person's constitution makes a difference too. Some people just do better as vegans or vegetarians or omnivores. I think each of us has to experiment with our bodies and find what is best in terms of diet, activities, career, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Hi Mirian, I rarely do this, but I have to stop and salute. I teach human anatomy, physiology and nutrition at Merritt College in the San Francisco Bay area. I am not (quite) a vegan, but I do absolutely support your stated perspective below and am deeply gratified by it. I have to say that I share your perspective, and most especially I love your courage in stating it. I'm living and teaching just north of you in the East Bay. Even in this progressive environment, I sometimes feel " outnumbered " and out-gunned by the media as well as the supermarket and chain-restaurant marketing. I root my feet as you are doing in the simplicity of showing where the main clinical pathology lies in the American population and where the etiology lies. I must be noted that there is little profit in stating this most obvious of truths. Animal products and refined carbohydrates essentially represent the etiology of the vast majority of pathologies in the American population. I also cite the vast literature (now on PubMed Central) regarding treatment and prevention of metabolic syndrome. I love that you include that vitamin B-12 along with all B-complex vitamins are made by intestinal flora. Of course they need the soluble fiber of plant foods (and I don't mean milled grains). I love that you can cite Dean Ornish, and I love that Dean Ornish can successfully seek insurance 3rd party payments for physicians at the University of California Medical Center at San Francisco for giving dietary and exercise advice in place of drug prescriptions. Thank you for being yet another voice in this comparative desert! Respectfully and gratefully, Emmanuel Segmen Posted by: " Marian Blum, L.Ac., DNBAO " iaomb-dated-2116020421.8c68a0 marianblum Fri Feb 8, 2008 8:17 am (PST) Bill, While I agree that there are people eating poorly as vegans, and you seem to have seen more than your share of them, on the whole, vegan diets are more healthful than omnivorous diets. Consumption of animal products (and smoking) is largely responsible for the top killer diseases in the US. Animal products add nothing beneficial to the human diet that can't be found in plant foods (except vitamin B-12 which is made by bacteria). That said, I imagine there are some people, not many, who may do better consuming a small amount of animal products. Perhaps TCM helps us determine who they are. Adding meat to someone's poor vegan diet doesn't made a good diet. We take heart disease, colon cancer, diabetes (etc.) for granted because they're so prevalent but they're largely preventable. Of course, refined carbs play a part, too. Researchers like Ornish and Esselstyn have found that adding just a small percentage of animal food to the diet increases heart disease risk. So I agree with your points, Bill, but with a different emphasis: we should recommend nutritious foods to everyone, whether omni or vegan, and nutritious foods are overwhelmingly plant foods. Living in accordance with one's values, as an ethical vegan does, is in itself a good boost for well being. It's not difficult to be supportive of their choice without recommending animal consumption. For more about vegan nutrition: www.veganhealth.org Marian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Emmanuel, Can you provide some of those citations that associate metabolic syndrome with animal products? I am only familiar with the association with high carb foods. - Bill Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <mrsegmen wrote: > I also cite the vast literature (now on PubMed Central) regarding treatment and prevention of metabolic syndrome. > > I love that you include that vitamin B-12 along with all B-complex vitamins are made by intestinal flora. Of course they need the soluble fiber of plant foods (and I don't mean milled grains). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Hi Bill, I realize your question was for Emmanuel but I'll add this in case it's useful: Neal Barnard, M.D. wrote a number of books for laypersons where he cites research showing associations between animal products and various health issues. His 2007 book is about diabetes and how fat brings about insulin resistance. (only animal fat? I don't know what he says about that.) I don't know if he specifically writes about metabolic syndrome in any of his books. Marian --- In Chinese Medicine , " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed wrote: > > Emmanuel, > > Can you provide some of those citations that associate metabolic > syndrome with animal products? I am only familiar with the association > with high carb foods. > > - Bill > > > Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " > <mrsegmen@> wrote: > > > I also cite the vast literature (now on PubMed Central) regarding > treatment and prevention of metabolic syndrome. > > > > I love that you include that vitamin B-12 along with all B-complex > vitamins are made by intestinal flora. Of course they need the > soluble fiber of plant foods (and I don't mean milled grains). > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Thank you, Emmanuel, for the compliment, and for adding your perspective. I'm encouraged to know that you, through reading the scientific literature first-hand, have come to similar conclusions as I have reading it all second-hand. I hear Dean Ornish has turned his attention towards cancer and what his low fat, near vegan diet can do for it. I'm looking forward to the results. Marian Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <mrsegmen wrote: > > Hi Mirian, > > I rarely do this, but I have to stop and salute. I teach human anatomy, physiology and nutrition at Merritt College in the San Francisco Bay area. I am not (quite) a vegan, but I do absolutely support your stated perspective below and am deeply gratified by it. > > I have to say that I share your perspective, and most especially I love your courage in stating it. I'm living and teaching just north of you in the East Bay. Even in this progressive environment, I sometimes feel " outnumbered " and out-gunned by the media as well as the supermarket and chain-restaurant marketing. I root my feet as you are doing in the simplicity of showing where the main clinical pathology lies in the American population and where the etiology lies. I must be noted that there is little profit in stating this most obvious of truths. Animal products and refined carbohydrates essentially represent the etiology of the vast majority of pathologies in the American population. I also cite the vast literature (now on PubMed Central) regarding treatment and prevention of metabolic syndrome. > > I love that you include that vitamin B-12 along with all B-complex vitamins are made by intestinal flora. Of course they need the soluble fiber of plant foods (and I don't mean milled grains). > > I love that you can cite Dean Ornish, and I love that Dean Ornish can successfully seek insurance 3rd party payments for physicians at the University of California Medical Center at San Francisco for giving dietary and exercise advice in place of drug prescriptions. > > Thank you for being yet another voice in this comparative desert! > > Respectfully and gratefully, > > Emmanuel Segmen > > Posted by: " Marian Blum, L.Ac., DNBAO " iaomb-dated- 2116020421.8c68a0 marianblum > Fri Feb 8, 2008 8:17 am (PST) > Bill, > > While I agree that there are people eating poorly as vegans, and you > seem to have seen more than your share of them, on the whole, vegan > diets are more healthful than omnivorous diets. Consumption of animal > products (and smoking) is largely responsible for the top killer > diseases in the US. Animal products add nothing beneficial to the > human diet that can't be found in plant foods (except vitamin B-12 > which is made by bacteria). That said, I imagine there are some > people, not many, who may do better consuming a small amount of > animal products. Perhaps TCM helps us determine who they are. > > Adding meat to someone's poor vegan diet doesn't made a good diet. We > take heart disease, colon cancer, diabetes (etc.) for granted because > they're so prevalent but they're largely preventable. Of course, > refined carbs play a part, too. Researchers like Ornish and Esselstyn > have found that adding just a small percentage of animal food to the > diet increases heart disease risk. So I agree with your points, Bill, > but with a different emphasis: we should recommend nutritious foods > to everyone, whether omni or vegan, and nutritious foods are > overwhelmingly plant foods. > > Living in accordance with one's values, as an ethical vegan does, is > in itself a good boost for well being. It's not difficult to be > supportive of their choice without recommending animal consumption. > For more about vegan nutrition: www.veganhealth.org > > Marian > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Hi Bill, Feel free to search PubMed or PubMed Central for metabolic syndrome and its treatment strategies. I believe the citations will be the same for your computer as for mine. Treatment of this condition with meat to me is unacceptable, and I observe that it's becoming unacceptable for most modern clinicians. Treatment with exercise and complex carbohydrates is the only acceptable procedure that I've ever read about. I've read of clinicians treating metabolic syndrome with meat as the food of choice. I've also read of treating obesity with numerous strategies of major surgery. It's my opinion that some treatments are worse than the disease. I've met people whose opinion is that either of these strategies is the way to go. To each her own. Using meat for any purpose in excess of two ounces per day, three or four days per week will lead to various imbalances. It's easy to measure in it's most immediate manifestation. If the urine has a pH of less than 7.35, then the kidneys are compensating for some degree of metabolic acidosis. Blood pH is 7.35 to 7.45. The kidney filters the blood and compensates for any pH away from this range. This is straight forward undergraduate physiology. See if you can eat little enough meat to get your urine pH to 7.0. Get back to me when you've figured out that level. For me it's around 2 ounces of meat three days per week at the very most. So treating metabolic syndrome with complex carbohydrates makes considerably more sense to me than treating it with meat. In addition, you can't ask a patient with kidney disease to add much meat to their diet. So why challenge the kidneys and other systems in the name of treating any homeostatic imbalance? Blood lipid profiles matter as does blood pH, just as a starting point. Serum urea nitrogen (BUN) matters. Liver triglycerides matter. It's easier to measure urine pH at home because you don't have to pay for lab tests. I hope you're doing well in that area. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen -------------- Emmanuel, Can you provide some of those citations that associate metabolic syndrome with animal products? I am only familiar with the association with high carb foods. - Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Hi Bill, Feel free to search PubMed or PubMed Central for metabolic syndrome and its treatment strategies. I believe the citations will be the same for your computer as for mine. Treatment of this condition with meat to me is unacceptable, and I observe that it's becoming unacceptable for most modern clinicians. Treatment with exercise and complex carbohydrates is the only acceptable procedure that I've ever read about. I've read of clinicians treating metabolic syndrome with meat as the food of choice. I've also read of treating obesity with numerous strategies of major surgery. It's my opinion that some treatments are worse than the disease. I've met people whose opinion is that either of these strategies is the way to go. To each her own. Using meat for any purpose in excess of two ounces per day, three or four days per week will lead to various imbalances. It's easy to measure in it's most immediate manifestation. If the urine has a pH of less than 7.35, then the kidneys are compensating for some degree of metabolic acidosis. Blood pH is 7.35 to 7.45. The kidney filters the blood and compensates for any pH away from this range. This is straight forward undergraduate physiology. See if you can eat little enough meat to get your urine pH to 7.0. Get back to me when you've figured out that level. For me it's around 2 ounces of meat three days per week at the very most. So treating metabolic syndrome with complex carbohydrates makes considerably more sense to me than treating it with meat. In addition, you can't ask a patient with kidney disease to add much meat to their diet. So why challenge the kidneys and other systems in the name of treating any homeostatic imbalance? Blood lipid profiles matter as does blood pH, just as a starting point. Serum urea nitrogen (BUN) matters. Liver triglycerides matter. It's easier to measure urine pH at home because you don't have to pay for lab tests. I hope you're doing well in that area. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen -------------- Emmanuel, Can you provide some of those citations that associate metabolic syndrome with animal products? I am only familiar with the association with high carb foods. - Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Emmanuel, I did a brief search on PubMed and found the study below that shows an inverse association between dairy consumption and metabolic syndrome in overweight adults. Any comments? - Bill Components of the insulin resistance syndrome (IRS), including obesity, glucose intolerance, hypertension, and dyslipidemia, are major risk factors for type 2 diabetes and heart disease. Although diet has been postulated to influence IRS, the independent effects of dairy consumption on development of this syndrome have not been investigated. OBJECTIVE: To examine associations between dairy intake and incidence of IRS, adjusting for confounding lifestyle and dietary factors. DESIGN: The Coronary Artery Risk Development in Young Adults (CARDIA) study, a population-based prospective study. SETTING AND PARTICIPANTS: General community sample from 4 US metropolitan areas of 3157 black and white adults aged 18 to 30 years who were followed up from 1985-1986 to 1995-1996. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE: Ten-year cumulative incidence of IRS and its association with dairy consumption, measured by diet history interview. RESULTS: Dairy consumption was inversely associated with the incidence of all IRS components among individuals who were overweight (body mass index > or =25 kg/m(2)) at baseline but not among leaner individuals (body mass index < 25 kg/m(2)). The adjusted odds of developing IRS (2 or more components) were 72% lower (odds ratio, 0.28; 95% confidence interval, 0.14-0.58) among overweight individuals in the highest (> or =35 times per week, 24/102 individuals) compared with the lowest (<10 times per week, 85/190 individuals) category of dairy consumption. Each daily occasion of dairy consumption was associated with a 21% lower odds of IRS (odds ratio, 0.79; 95% confidence interval, 0.70-0.88). These associations were similar for blacks and whites and for men and women. Other dietary factors, including macronutrients and micronutrients, did not explain the association between dairy intake and IRS. CONCLUSIONS: Dietary patterns characterized by increased dairy consumption have a strong inverse association with IRS among overweight adults and may reduce risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease. Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <mrsegmen wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > Feel free to search PubMed or PubMed Central for metabolic syndrome and its treatment strategies. I believe the citations will be the same for your computer as for mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Hi Bill, Thanks. Interesting body of some paper by some author working somewhere at some time. You forgot to include the citation. I can not look this study up on PubMed nor PubMed Central without the citation. That is, the name of the article, the journal issue/page number/date, the author, etc. I've observed that generally investigators have moved on in recent years from using animal protein as any part of the treatment methods for any of the aspects of metabolic syndrome. Switching people away from refined carbohydrates and processed foods (like milled grains) will have the effect of lowering insulin resistance over time. If you look deeply into the most recent three or four years worth of papers, increased physical activity is surfacing as a main component in treating insulin resistance specifically. Aerobic exercise is one of the most rapid methods of making someone more insulin sensitive. Medline and PubMed Central is where I spend hours of most days of the week. I'm science faculty and do a lot of presentations and teaching. One of my areas of presentation in recent years has been metabolic syndrome and cardiovascular diabetology. That's why I brought it up on my post to Marian. I'm sure I would bore you and the list members if I went on for too long. Some of my favorite websites are http://www.cardiab.com/ and http://www.biomedcentral.com/. They are open access sites and contained as parts of PubMed Central http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/. My comments remain, however, regarding the limitations on meat and why I saluted Marian's comments. It is easy to create imbalance with more than 2 ounces of meat, three times per week. If this was taken as a maximum, and some lesser amount was considered within the range of normal limits, then I for one would not object to including this much animal protein in one's diet. The problem would be to encourage this level of moderation, and to " measure " it. Really. Measure food portions, and check the urine pH for the sake of ease. More than this level of animal protein creates too many imbalances and does not provide soluble and insoluble fiber. Also, if insulin resistance was an issue, then the rest of the diet would have to truly consist of complex carbohydrates. That is, whole fruits and whole vegetables complete with their fiber would be the rest of the diet, nothing refined, milled or processed. There would have to be an eye to limiting portions and adding 60 to 90 minutes per day of physical activity. Aerobic athletes do not have insulin resistance. They generally have acute insulin sensitivity. Given the status of the current American diet and trying to engage an obese, type II diabetic patient with the challenge of lifestyle changes, one might be tempted to begin with a simple vegan diet with truly whole fruits and vegetables (really nothing refined or processed). It depends on how acute their issues are. Helping them to move stepwise to moderate might not get the job done. Perhaps vegan every other day with 2 ounces of meat or fish on alternate days. Patient management and developing stable habits is the long term challenge. Good luck with this. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen P.S. I also stand by my comments that Mirian's presentation was truly courageous in the face of American dietary habits and their support in media and advertising. -------------------------- Emmanuel, I did a brief search on PubMed and found the study below that shows an inverse association between dairy consumption and metabolic syndrome in overweight adults. Any comments? - Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Emmanuel, The studies I looked at indicated that meat was associated with metabolic syndrome, but dairy products were not. I also appreciated Marian's post, but I felt that it was a bit dogmatic. Her suggestion that animal products had no benefit in the human diet was the polar opposite of the usual TCM dogma that meat is some sort of panacea. Neither position is reasonable. You suggested that I eat 2 ounces of meat a day and measure my pH. I haven't consumed meat in 4 decades, so I think I'll decline your invitation. Here's the citation for the abstract I posted: Circulation. 2008 Feb 12;117(6):754-61. Dietary intake and the development of the metabolic syndrome: the Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities study. Lutsey PL, Steffen LM, Stevens J. Division of Epidemiology and Community Health, University of Minnesota, School of Public Health, Minneapolis, USA. - Bill Chinese Medicine , " Emmanuel Segmen " <mrsegmen wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > Thanks. Interesting body of some paper by some author working somewhere at some time. You forgot to include the citation. I can not look this study up on PubMed nor PubMed Central without the citation. That is, the name of the article, the journal issue/page number/date, the author, etc. > > I've observed that generally investigators have moved on in recent years from using animal protein as any part of the treatment methods for any of the aspects of metabolic syndrome. Switching people away from refined carbohydrates and processed foods (like milled grains) will have the effect of lowering insulin resistance over time. If you look deeply into the most recent three or four years worth of papers, increased physical activity is surfacing as a main component in treating insulin resistance specifically. Aerobic exercise is one of the most rapid methods of making someone more insulin sensitive. > > Medline and PubMed Central is where I spend hours of most days of the week. I'm science faculty and do a lot of presentations and teaching. One of my areas of presentation in recent years has been metabolic syndrome and cardiovascular diabetology. That's why I brought it up on my post to Marian. I'm sure I would bore you and the list members if I went on for too long. Some of my favorite websites are http://www.cardiab.com/ and http://www.biomedcentral.com/. They are open access sites and contained as parts of PubMed Central http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/. > > My comments remain, however, regarding the limitations on meat and why I saluted Marian's comments. It is easy to create imbalance with more than 2 ounces of meat, three times per week. If this was taken as a maximum, and some lesser amount was considered within the range of normal limits, then I for one would not object to including this much animal protein in one's diet. The problem would be to encourage this level of moderation, and to " measure " it. Really. Measure food portions, and check the urine pH for the sake of ease. More than this level of animal protein creates too many imbalances and does not provide soluble and insoluble fiber. > > Also, if insulin resistance was an issue, then the rest of the diet would have to truly consist of complex carbohydrates. That is, whole fruits and whole vegetables complete with their fiber would be the rest of the diet, nothing refined, milled or processed. There would have to be an eye to limiting portions and adding 60 to 90 minutes per day of physical activity. Aerobic athletes do not have insulin resistance. They generally have acute insulin sensitivity. > > Given the status of the current American diet and trying to engage an obese, type II diabetic patient with the challenge of lifestyle changes, one might be tempted to begin with a simple vegan diet with truly whole fruits and vegetables (really nothing refined or processed). It depends on how acute their issues are. Helping them to move stepwise to moderate might not get the job done. Perhaps vegan every other day with 2 ounces of meat or fish on alternate days. Patient management and developing stable habits is the long term challenge. Good luck with this. > > Respectfully, > Emmanuel Segmen > > P.S. I also stand by my comments that Mirian's presentation was truly courageous in the face of American dietary habits and their support in media and advertising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 I would suggest for those interested to look a www.molecularfitness.com and go to the science, this should put a end to the discussion that one needs to eliminate acid type foods that being dairy, meat, grain and most nuts and only eat a vegan diet. 800 peer reviewed scientific and medical research studies. Connexins, cell to cell communication enhanced by alkalinity, mineral supplement, exercise and stress reduction. Ross Ralph Dr.TCM ART, Osteopathic Student - Emmanuel Segmen Chinese Medicine Tuesday, February 12, 2008 4:14 PM Re: eating meat Hi Bill, Feel free to search PubMed or PubMed Central for metabolic syndrome and its treatment strategies. I believe the citations will be the same for your computer as for mine. Treatment of this condition with meat to me is unacceptable, and I observe that it's becoming unacceptable for most modern clinicians. Treatment with exercise and complex carbohydrates is the only acceptable procedure that I've ever read about. I've read of clinicians treating metabolic syndrome with meat as the food of choice. I've also read of treating obesity with numerous strategies of major surgery. It's my opinion that some treatments are worse than the disease. I've met people whose opinion is that either of these strategies is the way to go. To each her own. Using meat for any purpose in excess of two ounces per day, three or four days per week will lead to various imbalances. It's easy to measure in it's most immediate manifestation. If the urine has a pH of less than 7.35, then the kidneys are compensating for some degree of metabolic acidosis. Blood pH is 7.35 to 7.45. The kidney filters the blood and compensates for any pH away from this range. This is straight forward undergraduate physiology. See if you can eat little enough meat to get your urine pH to 7.0. Get back to me when you've figured out that level. For me it's around 2 ounces of meat three days per week at the very most. So treating metabolic syndrome with complex carbohydrates makes considerably more sense to me than treating it with meat. In addition, you can't ask a patient with kidney disease to add much meat to their diet. So why challenge the kidneys and other systems in the name of treating any homeostatic imbalance? Blood lipid profiles matter as does blood pH, just as a starting point. Serum urea nitrogen (BUN) matters. Liver triglycerides matter. It's easier to measure urine pH at home because you don't have to pay for lab tests. I hope you're doing well in that area. Respectfully, Emmanuel Segmen -------------- Emmanuel, Can you provide some of those citations that associate metabolic syndrome with animal products? I am only familiar with the association with high carb foods. - Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2008 Report Share Posted February 26, 2008 Hi all. I´ve seen pretty much every point I could have wanted to make + more in this thread, except for one: the red-blooded male, the american muscle car (hum-v´s these days), high military spending, isolationist and imperialist foreign policies, aggressive management of crime, the preoccupation with muscle, doing more, faster, harder and so on and so forth, is merely the liver axis showing heat and constraint. Meat, of course, is necessary for this process. Hugo > Michael Pollan, in his most recent book, demystifies our American > preoccupation with protein as a some sort of iconic or magical > dietary requirement. It is ironically what stands in the way of our > recently gained strides in longevity. So I've silently rolled my > eyes over the years when I've heard people ask, " Where are you > getting your protein? " My occasional response was, " How are you > managing to avoid it? " > Messages in this topic (34) ________ Sent from Mail. A Smarter Inbox. http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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