Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that survives the body? Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact of CM? EM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural artifact " ? Bob www.acuherbals.com establishment_man <establishment_man wrote: Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that survives the body? Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact of CM? EM Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 BoB, Do we have to? That's what I am interested in talking about.Is CM a religion or a medical system? Must we accept the Spiritual claims of CM in order to practice the medicine effectively? EM Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural artifact " ? > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > establishment_man <establishment_man wrote: > Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that survives the body? > > Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact of CM? > > EM > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 BoB, Do we have to? That's what I am interested in talking about.Is CM a religion or a medical system? Must we accept the Spiritual claims of CM in order to practice the medicine effectively? EM Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural artifact " ? > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > establishment_man <establishment_man wrote: > Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that survives the body? > > Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact of CM? > > EM > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Hey Bob, haven't you heard? The techniques of CM work for unknown reasons that WM will elucidate for us, but the whole theory of CM is a cultural artifact. This should " force us to question ... whether learning the traditional [theory] is superfluous. " (GERAC) Hugo " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist Chinese Medicine Friday, 12 October, 2007 4:57:32 AM Re: Re: The Soul / Shen / Hun etc. Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural artifact " ? Bob www.acuherbals. com establishment_ man <establishment_ man > wrote: Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that survives the body? Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact of CM? EM ------------ --------- --------- --- Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Hi EM, May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ? I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless when we see some patients' or someone's interested. My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical analysis if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or depression, then sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is more powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be appropriate with time, environment and condition. However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine, relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I had never talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know nothing about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not what they do. If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun ) thoroughly and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear about it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is health, the healthy of individuals. Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Nam - I correct in saying then that you do not believe it is necessary to accept the Spiritual Theories of CM in order to practice the medical arts effectively. EM --- In Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 " <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: > > Hi EM, > May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ? > I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless when we > see some patients' or someone's interested. > My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of > themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical analysis > if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or depression, then > sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is more > powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be appropriate > with time, environment and condition. > However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine, > relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I had never > talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know nothing > about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not what they do. > If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun ) thoroughly > and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear about > it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is health, the > healthy of individuals. > > Nam Nguyen > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I am not sure what you mean by the 'spiritual theories of CM'. Where does Chinese medicine separate the body from the mind or spirit? Does Chinese thought have the same concept of 'spiritual' as Western cultures? On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:11 AM, establishment_man wrote: > Nam - I correct in saying then that you do not believe it is > necessary to accept the Spiritual Theories of CM in order to > practice the medical arts effectively. > > EM > > --- In > Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 " > <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: > > > > Hi EM, > > May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ? > > I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless > when we > > see some patients' or someone's interested. > > My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of > > themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical > analysis > > if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or depression, > then > > sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is > more > > powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be > appropriate > > with time, environment and condition. > > However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine, > > relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I had > never > > talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know > nothing > > about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not what > they do. > > If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun ) > thoroughly > > and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear about > > it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is health, > the > > healthy of individuals. > > > > Nam Nguyen > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Z'ev, In this discussion, it seems to have those same 'spiritual' concepts. I have seen posts that talk about a consciousness that survives death. This strikes me as similar to the ideas of a soul in Christian theology. This would be an example of the 'spiritual theories' of CM. Such and such Spirit does X, and another type of Soul does Y. You know.........the whole five spirits and the Po merges with the elements and the Hun is ethereal and survives death, etc. I just wonder if acupuncturists to these philosophical notions, and if they find it important in terms of applying Chinese Medicine. EM -- In Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > I am not sure what you mean by the 'spiritual theories of CM'. Where > does Chinese medicine separate the body from the mind or spirit? > Does Chinese thought have the same concept of 'spiritual' as Western > cultures? > > > On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:11 AM, establishment_man wrote: > > > Nam - I correct in saying then that you do not believe it is > > necessary to accept the Spiritual Theories of CM in order to > > practice the medical arts effectively. > > > > EM > > > > --- In > > Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 " > > <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi EM, > > > May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ? > > > I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless > > when we > > > see some patients' or someone's interested. > > > My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of > > > themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical > > analysis > > > if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or depression, > > then > > > sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is > > more > > > powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be > > appropriate > > > with time, environment and condition. > > > However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine, > > > relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I had > > never > > > talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know > > nothing > > > about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not what > > they do. > > > If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun ) > > thoroughly > > > and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear about > > > it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is health, > > the > > > healthy of individuals. > > > > > > Nam Nguyen > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Hi Guys, IMHO the translation of Hun Po Zhi Yi & Shen in relation to the translation is: 'Spirit' and not 'Spiritual', therefore in my understanding not religious. I think it is the western misunderstanding of spirit here. Gordon. On 10/12/07, <zrosenbe wrote: > > I am not sure what you mean by the 'spiritual theories of CM'. Where > does Chinese medicine separate the body from the mind or spirit? > Does Chinese thought have the same concept of 'spiritual' as Western > cultures? > > > > On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:11 AM, establishment_man wrote: > > > Nam - I correct in saying then that you do not believe it is > > necessary to accept the Spiritual Theories of CM in order to > > practice the medical arts effectively. > > > > EM > > > > --- In > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " dr_namnguyen58 " > > <dr_namnguyen58 wrote: > > > > > > Hi EM, > > > May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ? > > > I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless > > when we > > > see some patients' or someone's interested. > > > My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of > > > themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical > > analysis > > > if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or depression, > > then > > > sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is > > more > > > powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be > > appropriate > > > with time, environment and condition. > > > However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine, > > > relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I had > > never > > > talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know > > nothing > > > about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not what > > they do. > > > If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun ) > > thoroughly > > > and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear about > > > it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is health, > > the > > > healthy of individuals. > > > > > > Nam Nguyen > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I don't believe you have be be a Taoist or a Buddist or any other ist or ism to be a good TCM practitioner but you do have to have an understanding of the whole system and concepts of yin and yang, hun, po, shen, qi ....how can we treat mental illness without understanding shen and what affects it, does evil wind exist? why do the teeth get loose during pregnancy for def patients?....western science can only explain some issues...TCM is a complete system that some correlations can be drawn between east and west...but stick to TCM...I do simplify when talking to patients and sometimes say in western med it might be called this....in TCM we have another name for it....I don't sit there and try and explain organ spirital aspects to folks. Besides do I need to be christian to study and understand the christian religion or muslim to understand Islam. I have enjoyed studying religions of many faiths and find them wonderful. For my medicine I'll stick with TCM. Its interesting that in just my area I have seen TCM practitioners who are christian, jew, pagan, taoist, buddist, wiccan and likely a few I don't even know about..... Bob www.acuherbals.com establishment_man <establishment_man wrote: BoB, Do we have to? That's what I am interested in talking about.Is CM a religion or a medical system? Must we accept the Spiritual claims of CM in order to practice the medicine effectively? EM Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural artifact " ? > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > establishment_man <establishment_man wrote: > Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that survives the body? > > Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact of CM? > > EM > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Bob, It's an interesting subject. I think there is a distinction to be drawn between tangible and empirical findings (like loose teeth during pregnancy) and intangible claims such as an ethereal soul that survives death. I agree that it is all very interesting and appreciate your attitude of Viva La Difference! But I think there are some TCM fundamentalists who place a blind faith in the classics of both TCM and Taoist philosophy. While I think that some symptom patterns are very clear and logical, like " Liver Wind " leads to tremors, spasms, and numbness for example - other claims of CM do not seem as clear, like the idea of a consciousness that survives death. EM Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > I don't believe you have be be a Taoist or a Buddist or any other ist or ism to be a good TCM practitioner but you do have to have an understanding of the whole system and concepts of yin and yang, hun, po, shen, qi ....how can we treat mental illness without understanding shen and what affects it, does evil wind exist? why do the teeth get loose during pregnancy for def patients?....western science can only explain some issues...TCM is a complete system that some correlations can be drawn between east and west...but stick to TCM...I do simplify when talking to patients and sometimes say in western med it might be called this....in TCM we have another name for it....I don't sit there and try and explain organ spirital aspects to folks. Besides do I need to be christian to study and understand the christian religion or muslim to understand Islam. I have enjoyed studying religions of many faiths and find them wonderful. For my medicine I'll stick with TCM. Its interesting > that in just my area I have seen TCM practitioners who are christian, jew, pagan, taoist, buddist, wiccan and likely a few I don't even know about..... > > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > establishment_man <establishment_man wrote: > BoB, > > Do we have to? That's what I am interested in talking about.Is CM a > religion or a medical system? Must we accept the Spiritual claims of > CM in order to practice the medicine effectively? > > EM > > Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP, > Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist@> wrote: > > > > Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural > artifact " ? > > Bob > > www.acuherbals.com > > > > establishment_man <establishment_man@> wrote: > > Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that > survives the body? > > > > Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact > of CM? > > > > EM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Bob, Taoist, Buddist, or Christian is a way of life. Each philosophy is tremendously helpful in our society, not just in one individual himself. These philosophies will bring us, the families, the nation together as a team and produce a living harmony depend on how they were put in practice and into each life. Some people are so desperate, their lives in a mess, nothing could help , but in strong belief their distresses are completely dissolved. But when we put them ( philosophies ) in applications we must use some strong verses in short, not lengthy , to turn themselves our patients into a happiness environment. Let's look at this story : I had a couples ( man 78, lady 68 ) came into my office for psychiatric care. They have had a problem for years and are under psychiatric care for more than 6 years. Medications were given but problemes had never been solved. This MD, in the same office building with mine, asked me if I could treat these couples. They are husband and wife for more than 40 years. They love each other and care for each other very much. Somehow, they argued and got angry at each other all the times. They played cards in their pleasure time. After playing a few hours the winner irritated the loser by giving provocative unpleasant words and this party turned a warm loving atmosphere into a hostile environment. They became far apart for awhile and then rejoined. These continuous activities turned both of them into distress and depress daily and they finally sook medical for help. After hearing the story, I said, " I can cure this couples within a few treatments. " At this time I must use the philosophy " Chritian verse, the Bible " . Facing them, I asked both " Do you believe in GOD ? " , both replied " Yes! " . I assured them " Only this can cure both of you, and for sure this problem will never reoccur. " There is one thing you folks, both of you, have done wrong. This is why this problem has never been solved. If you believe in GOD, you must obey his command " LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR ! " . If you do not love your wife nor your husband, how do you love your neighbor ??? How ? How ?........ The card game is a thing we can enjoy and by playing with it. We can control it. It does not control our lives or our relationship. If this occurs, you both have turned a thing into a monster in your family. REMEMBER, the cards playing should produce a productive or quality time when you are together. Help him or her to come at least equal or above you. In game the winner must encourage the loser to do better or somehow helps him or her to improve chances to win. This makes the game become more exciting instead of inciting a hostile manner. With this I call " LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR " . Never makes your neighbor feels contempt or debased or lower than yourself. This I call " a TRUE LOVE " . After the analysis of a story, they thanked me and promised they would change their attitudes in games. From there, a happily life returned............ They come and visit my office once in a while. No more distress nor depress and particularly no more medication just after one visit. SEE ... SEE ... SEE ... Words can bring life back. Thanks everybody. Nam Nguyen Hey Bob, How about this ???? And what do you think my friends, TCM ? I have an idea " Why don't we rename our TCM or recreate a new name for ourselves instead of carry an old name TCM " First, I see TCM has been slowly changed and its recognition is somehow moving along with it. With a new name we may be caught the attention in a new way ? For me I will rename it TCMM " Traditional Chinese Mixed Medicine " . What it means to ourselves or to a public that we are not pure TCM but it has gone through some adaption and changes of our friend WM theory and pathology in diagnostic and preventional measures, but somehow , the treatments will retain it flavors and recipes or in combination. Nam Nguyen Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist wrote: > > I don't believe you have be be a Taoist or a Buddist or any other ist or ism to be a good TCM practitioner but you do have to have an understanding of the whole system and concepts of yin and yang, hun, po, shen, qi ....how can we treat mental illness without understanding shen and what affects it, does evil wind exist? why do the teeth get loose during pregnancy for def patients?....western science can only explain some issues...TCM is a complete system that some correlations can be drawn between east and west...but stick to TCM...I do simplify when talking to patients and sometimes say in western med it might be called this....in TCM we have another name for it....I don't sit there and try and explain organ spirital aspects to folks. Besides do I need to be christian to study and understand the christian religion or muslim to understand Islam. I have enjoyed studying religions of many faiths and find them wonderful. For my medicine I'll stick with TCM. Its interesting > that in just my area I have seen TCM practitioners who are christian, jew, pagan, taoist, buddist, wiccan and likely a few I don't even know about..... > > Bob > www.acuherbals.com > > establishment_man <establishment_man wrote: > BoB, > > Do we have to? That's what I am interested in talking about.Is CM a > religion or a medical system? Must we accept the Spiritual claims of > CM in order to practice the medicine effectively? > > EM > > Chinese Medicine , " Bob Linde, AP, > Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist@> wrote: > > > > Don't we have to? Isn't " Qi " just another " primitive cultural > artifact " ? > > Bob > > www.acuherbals.com > > > > establishment_man <establishment_man@> wrote: > > Do people believe in this concept of a " Spirit " that > survives the body? > > > > Or is this a primitive view that survives as a cultural artifact > of CM? > > > > EM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 I think these notions are very difficult to understand outside of their cultural context, but they can be applied at different levels, such as emotional and consciousness connections with the five yin viscera. I think we should simply keep an open mind to all possibilities within the Chinese medical tradition and not dismiss them until they are fully understood and integrated in our own minds. We are still at a very early stage of adaption of Chinese medical and philosophical ideas, and should be careful not to reject anything outright. On Oct 12, 2007, at 11:20 AM, establishment_man wrote: > Z'ev, > > In this discussion, it seems to have those same 'spiritual' > concepts. I have seen posts that talk about a consciousness that > survives death. This strikes me as similar to the ideas of a soul in > Christian theology. This would be an example of the 'spiritual > theories' of CM. Such and such Spirit does X, and another type of > Soul does Y. You know.........the whole five spirits and the Po > merges with the elements and the Hun is ethereal and survives death, > etc. > > I just wonder if acupuncturists to these philosophical > notions, and if they find it important in terms of applying Chinese > Medicine. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Dear Establishment, The problem with splitting off the hun, et al is that there is no real division in CM between material and immaterial, or physical and spiritual. All is matter, made of qi that is variably dense or subtle. All of the entities in question are working parts of the theoretical framework that CM evolves from, they all " take up space " as substances, hence there needing to be " housed " in body parts, whether that is the viscera themselves, the bony joints as some daoist texts would have it. For the most part there is little to no dwelling on the final disposition of these entities in CM literature, though there is plenty of it in Daoist literature. I don't think I have ever seen a reference in CM literature to a soul surviving death (I don't think the Confucians who composed much of the material had time for such maunderings), the closest thing would be the Shen Nong Ben Cao's use of the term " make the body light " in reference to medicinals that promote a more yang/rarified nature and promote immortality. I'm sure such nuggets exist in Sun Si Miao's work as well, but my Chinese isn't up to it yet. From a clinical standpoint I don't think the eternal, or post mortem, destination of the shen, et al, is relevant, or very problematic. I don't know about you, but my job tends to end way before that point. The functional nature of those parts however are important, and can serve as useful guideposts in diagnostic thinking and in the formulation of treatments. While the divisions of consciousness, personality and vegetal functions is to some extent arbitrary, as are most assignments of attributes and functions in CM, it is based on observed phenomena and it can be a useful tool when thinking about how thought processes and bodily functions such as sleep are impaired by disease. Does it help one's practice to have Buddhist or Daoist leanings? I don't know... being overly Cartesian doesn't help, does it? Take care, Par Scott - establishment_man Chinese Medicine Friday, October 12, 2007 2:20 PM Re: The Soul / Shen / Hun etc. Z'ev, In this discussion, it seems to have those same 'spiritual' concepts. I have seen posts that talk about a consciousness that survives death. This strikes me as similar to the ideas of a soul in Christian theology. This would be an example of the 'spiritual theories' of CM. Such and such Spirit does X, and another type of Soul does Y. You know.........the whole five spirits and the Po merges with the elements and the Hun is ethereal and survives death, etc. I just wonder if acupuncturists to these philosophical notions, and if they find it important in terms of applying Chinese Medicine. EM -- In Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > I am not sure what you mean by the 'spiritual theories of CM'. Where > does Chinese medicine separate the body from the mind or spirit? > Does Chinese thought have the same concept of 'spiritual' as Western > cultures? > > > On Oct 12, 2007, at 10:11 AM, establishment_man wrote: > > > Nam - I correct in saying then that you do not believe it is > > necessary to accept the Spiritual Theories of CM in order to > > practice the medical arts effectively. > > > > EM > > > > --- In > > Chinese Medicine , " dr_namnguyen58 " > > <dr_namnguyen58@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi EM, > > > May I speak for Hugo or Bob in this case ? > > > I think we, TCM , should not speak about of religion unless > > when we > > > see some patients' or someone's interested. > > > My cases with patients, I always try to give them a picture of > > > themselves first in pathology, in nature,and then in chemical > > analysis > > > if needed. If a patient is involved mental stress or depression, > > then > > > sometimes, a verse in religion will offer a great help which is > > more > > > powerful than WM or TCM therapy. But application must be > > appropriate > > > with time, environment and condition. > > > However, we must show our patients our competent in medicine, > > > relate all facts within our scope TCM of practice first... I had > > never > > > talked or mention about the Soul, Shen or Hun because I know > > nothing > > > about them nor I have never seen them, furthermore, I do not what > > they do. > > > If one thinks he knows the trinity ( Soul, Shen, Hun ) > > thoroughly > > > and this subject should be brought into light, I want to hear about > > > it. Otherwise, stay in tune with TCM. Our main concern is health, > > the > > > healthy of individuals. > > > > > > Nam Nguyen > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Hi all... I believe we are on the western dualism thing now. CM is explicit in its statements regarding the spirit, emotions and body and the place of all of these in the world. Can anyone show us the dividing lines? CM says there are none. All of this is one thing, choosing what to communicate to a px on a case-by-case basis is something else. And let's not throw " religion " into the mix because /that/ would certainly be projecting western values onto CM. Hugo _________ Switch an email account to Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Hugo, I would not to want to make the theories and ideas of CM a 'religous'discussion, but......there are many aspects of CM that do seem to encompass the domain of religion. Two things particular come to mind, the notion of a soul that survives death, and the tendency to blindly accept as truth things that were written a long time ago (without demanding that these statements stand up to any kind of scrutiny). I think that we could agree that these two aspects of CM maintain characteristics of religion. Many of the aspects of TCM's 'spirits' seem like rich metaphors to explain the behavior of the body's systems and the interaction of the body with pathogens. But, are we to take these things literally? Do practitioners out there believe that these spirits literally exist? And that some of them may transport an individual's consciousness from this world to another? Or from this body to another body? Or, are the spirits more metaphoric - akin to the CM idea of " Wind, " which is a useful image to describe the interaction of the body with a pathogen, but not necessarily meant as the literal presence of wind inside of the body. What say you TCM community? Are the " spirits " actual entities, or metaphoric descriptions of natural phenomena? EM Chinese Medicine , Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: > > Hi all... I believe we are on the western dualism thing now. CM is > explicit in its statements regarding the spirit, emotions and body and > the place of all of these in the world. Can anyone show us the dividing > lines? CM says there are none. > All of this is one thing, choosing > what to communicate to a px on a case-by-case basis is something else. > And let's not throw " religion " into the mix > because /that/ would certainly be projecting western values onto CM. > Hugo > > > > > _________ > Switch an email account to Mail, you could win FIFA World Cup tickets. http://uk.mail. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 One only has to read the classics to know that this IS chinese medicine. The materialists pulled much of the spiritual connotations out, but the fact is that any practitioner of chinese medicine throughout history would have utilised these concepts to one degree or another depending on their own development. The concept of the little Dao applies, you do not treat people just to get them well, you do it because you have the opportunity to do it, because you understand that it is more than you. If you are not cultivating yourself, you are not, as far as the classics indicate, truly practicing chinese medicine. These concepts give focus to how one can go about becoming not only a better practitioner but a better human. Tymothy Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > I think these notions are very difficult to understand outside of > their cultural context, but they can be applied at different levels, > such as emotional and consciousness connections with the five yin > viscera. I think we should simply keep an open mind to all > possibilities within the Chinese medical tradition and not dismiss > them until they are fully understood and integrated in our own > minds. We are still at a very early stage of adaption of Chinese > medical and philosophical ideas, and should be careful not to reject > anything outright. > > > On Oct 12, 2007, at 11:20 AM, establishment_man wrote: > > > Z'ev, > > > > In this discussion, it seems to have those same 'spiritual' > > concepts. I have seen posts that talk about a consciousness that > > survives death. This strikes me as similar to the ideas of a soul in > > Christian theology. This would be an example of the 'spiritual > > theories' of CM. Such and such Spirit does X, and another type of > > Soul does Y. You know.........the whole five spirits and the Po > > merges with the elements and the Hun is ethereal and survives death, > > etc. > > > > I just wonder if acupuncturists to these philosophical > > notions, and if they find it important in terms of applying Chinese > > Medicine. > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Tymothy, This is part of the question I am raising. Are the 'classics' intrinsicly correct. We know (more or less) what they say, but does their very existence render them correct? If we look at your average pre-industrial science or medical textbook from one or two thousand years ago, how reliable should we assume that data to be? Much of the material of the classics holds up in clinical practice to this day, but I am not so sure about all of the mechanisms and assumptions that underly the theories of CM. And I am especially apprehensive about accepting these ideas as fact simply because they were written down a long time ago by people in a far away land. This type of acceptence seems to me to border on religious faith, and blurs the line between medicine and religion. EM Chinese Medicine , " miracles28 " <jellyphish wrote: > > One only has to read the classics to know that this IS chinese > medicine. The materialists pulled much of the spiritual connotations > out, but the fact is that any practitioner of chinese medicine > throughout history would have utilised these concepts to one degree or > another depending on their own development. > The concept of the little Dao applies, you do not treat people just to > get them well, you do it because you have the opportunity to do it, > because you understand that it is more than you. If you are not > cultivating yourself, you are not, as far as the classics indicate, > truly practicing chinese medicine. These concepts give focus to how > one can go about becoming not only a better practitioner but a better > human. > Tymothy > > > Chinese Medicine , " Z'ev Rosenberg " > <zrosenbe@> wrote: > > > > I think these notions are very difficult to understand outside of > > their cultural context, but they can be applied at different levels, > > such as emotional and consciousness connections with the five yin > > viscera. I think we should simply keep an open mind to all > > possibilities within the Chinese medical tradition and not dismiss > > them until they are fully understood and integrated in our own > > minds. We are still at a very early stage of adaption of Chinese > > medical and philosophical ideas, and should be careful not to reject > > anything outright. > > > > > > On Oct 12, 2007, at 11:20 AM, establishment_man wrote: > > > > > Z'ev, > > > > > > In this discussion, it seems to have those same 'spiritual' > > > concepts. I have seen posts that talk about a consciousness that > > > survives death. This strikes me as similar to the ideas of a soul in > > > Christian theology. This would be an example of the 'spiritual > > > theories' of CM. Such and such Spirit does X, and another type of > > > Soul does Y. You know.........the whole five spirits and the Po > > > merges with the elements and the Hun is ethereal and survives death, > > > etc. > > > > > > I just wonder if acupuncturists to these philosophical > > > notions, and if they find it important in terms of applying Chinese > > > Medicine. > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Dear, Em, Timothy and Hugo, Soul , Hun and Po I know none of them, but when I heart of it triggers my memory in either of physics or chemistry. Here is my picture. I am sorry to have some views at some angles similar in religion. In my 5 normal senses ( 5 elements ) I can see the world exist in 3 stages ( solid, liquid and gas ), but it may offer more stages, but my intellectual could not break further beyond these stages. In our world , 3 dimension, I can see only living things in solid ( us, plants, animals… ) in liquid ( fish… ) in gas ( bacteria and viruses or smaller organism or very large things as stars, planets and galaxy ). Some people may refer gas as invisible form of living things ( as ghost )… In each world of 3 , there are so many things I have never seen and I do not think they are existing. I am in a bottom of a very small well, know nothing outside of a well. But in this well I think I know all things and I believe all things are only in this well to the level of my eyes or up to the level at the peak or my raised hands, others, to me ,are phantomized... Is this indicated that I have a closed mind ? Yes, indeed! In religion such as in Buddah, the Buddists have a wider vision seeing the world in 7 different stages which in my intuition is 3… You can go on and help me on this if one of you can. I may stop here for my knowledge is limited in this subject " a man in a bottom of a very small well " . Let' look at our bodies : Our bodies composed of all cells in skin, muscles, tendons, ligaments, blood, plasma, bones, marrow, hair, nails, brain… Those cells are exactly identical in structures and were made from our DNA. Each of them has his own functions and life span according to his environment. Some cells are replacing in days, others in months, in years and some will never be replaced until our death. In some tissues as our skin, skin cells are replacing I mean replacing, not dying. Is this what Hugo meant, the soul never dies?????? In WM we call those dying cells are replacing by new cells. Replacing means taking the job or functions of old ones. The old ones go away and be assigned to do something else, who knows? But what make decision to replace or not to replace our old cells? Our DNA. In our world I believe we are in human body displaying a solid form. In this form we compose of liquids and gasses, such as ice, water and steam ). The fact is ice can be melt into water, and into steam and vice versa. According to the law of conservation, they are not destroyed. In our health prevention or treatment, should we look at the solid matter as a sole treatment such as in WM? Of course, not ! We must inspect all in 3 forms ( the body, the nourishment –nourishment , and the activities ). The most important of the 3 is the activities " the most YANG, the shen " in a living thing. The clear mind of a patient is so important -the awareness of the environment. There are so many healthy, influential and affluent individuals who do not want to live anymore… We must come up with a treatment. There are people who are so poor or being so oppressed refuse to live, and others. We are talking about healthy individuals who are denying to continue to live. If we do not have any idea about helping the healthy individuals to regain their statuses, how can we help the sick, ill or the disease ??? I think some of us have missed this point ( the YANG, living soul or energy ) in their practice. We should look and study about our patients, not just to know them. To study, I mean to understand their activities and their lifestyles. Thanks, Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 A very interesting topic... Let's take a look at something that has been going around for a long time: a soul surviving death. If a soul is energy, qi, or however else you want to describe it, then this can apply: > Energy exists in many forms, such as heat, light, chemical energy, and > electrical energy. Energy is the ability to bring about change or to > do work. Thermodynamics is the study of energy. If so, then this has to apply: > First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to > another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of > energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing > from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics > (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be > created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one > form into another. (taken from http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookEner1.html) But then we would have to believe in a soul and an afterlife, if there is no destruction, this qi has to go somewhere else and fire up some other organism or do something else because it cannot be there innert (and then we get into reicarnation). But if there is no soul, what is it that makes the difference between a living and a dead organism. I mean you can take different bodyparts and stich them together but in contrary to Dr Frankenstein you won't end up with a monster walking around, just a body made up of different parts. This applies to every living organism -that means that animals also have eternal souls-. This might sound very far fetched...but can you prove it wrong without going into religion and dogma? (maybe ancient philosophers were more advanced in the matters of science than what we think) I believe medicine is the study of energy, i believe traditional medicines are very scientific, if some one doesn't like the terminology, they can change it, it's only a word and it's not going to affect anything. You either have energy or don't, but it is not yang or yin, it is simply energy, you might want to call it thermal (is the persons body warm?), kinetic (is he/she -or organs- moving?), potential (big waist line?)- The lack of energy somewhere doesn't mean that it is yin, it simply means that there is a lack of energy. There is no yin and yang, there is simply one, they are not in contadiction, yin and yang are only two words to try to explain this world, this experience, and it is such a good terminology, that has been around for thousands of years...i would like to see if chimotherapy lasts that long. Yin and yang is one, not two as a coin has a head and a tail, you cannot separate them, and if you were able to slice a coin right through the middle you would still have two faces, another yin and another yang. As therapists, doctors, healers...we should be looking for that energy is the body hot, is the body moving, does the heart have energy, is the brain sending and receiving electrical impulses, and only when there is an inbalance on one of the sides of the coins, then we can notice it. The lack of yin does not mean that there is yang or the lck of yang does not mean that there is yin, it simply says that there is a lack of and " lack of " does not mean that there is yin, because for it to be yin it needs to be there, not to be non existant. Yin and yang are only names to describe the quality of the energy, but it has to be there to be named, if not, how can you name it? All medicines are related to science, they are all correct, some are simply more brute than others, like trying to eliminate sinus by opening up the patients face and clean with a drill, instead of changing the person's diet and prescribing some plants that loosen up the mucus, or eliminating hemorroids by cutting them out... Hey, but this world, mainstram lifestiles have become way too yang and solutions are needed quickly...and of course don't take a person with a knife stab or a gun shot wound to the acupunturist. I believe 99.9% of our diseases and maladies are due to the body not following the mind that in turn is not following the soul, in toher words: if you let yourself be driven by the materialistic side of life, you wioll never be at ease, there is always another party to go to, another person to have sex with, a bigger/faster car, a hotter woman/man, a new outfit to buy, another animal to kill to eat and satisfy for maybe 20 minutes your taste buds. This lifestyle doesn't bring peace and harmony to your mind, your emotions will go unbalanced and this will cause organ disfunction wichin turn will make you feel worse and make your organs more unbalanced . Everything has to do with the soul, has to do with emotions, i believe happiness goes hand in hand with spirituality -not necessary religion, but if that helps...- I don't think the important part of my existance is my physical side and the material objects i can collect before i pass away -it makes life more comfortable, but not necessary easier or clearer (have you ever heard of a rock star or a movie star commiting suicide or going to rehab centers?). Having said this, i don't believe any medicine heals or cures anybody, i believe we give the " patient " a relief of symptoms until he/she can take control of his/her emotions and starts healing from the inside out, from the more yang to the more yin, from the emotional side to the physical one, that means that the " patient " is not " patient " , but " actient " (from active) or a " doer " (to speak better English) because he/she is the one who has the most difficult work, set emotions in order find a true calling and stabilize his/her life, otherwise the root of the problem will still be there and he/she will be going to doctors (modern or traditional) to be trated for different problems. Just a thought before going to sleep Juan -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Juan, You 've brought up an interesting law of thermoldynamics, a physics. Juan , if you believe in Buddah, you may have heard that there are 7 different worlds ( 7 phases )in our universe. This is an old vision of Buddah's perception-an art or advanced science. But as I look and think, there are more, perhaps. Let's see this. In our world we have touched so many subjects in energy. In each energy I believe it may impose a world of its own. The strange thing is I see 9 individual worlds instead of 7. Perhaps, Buddah has said 9, I do not remember precisely. Here, they are : Electrical, Heat " thermo " , sound, sight, chemical, light, water, mechanical, and magnetism. There maybe more... These energies can be transformed one into another or into combination, but never be destroyed. I our bodies possess all kinds of energies above and they are in constant changed " transformation " . Energies come in and out of our bodies in one or many forms and leave our bodies in different form or forms. When we die it is said that we give up the ghost, or give up the spirit " the breath of life " . This spirit in " invisible " energy form had been transformed into different form leaving our bodies for other important functions ??? The time is up, you must leave the body. Is this the same as we inhale Oxygen, this Oxygen has its function to nourish our bodies and at the same time it comes out at the same gate as Carbon dioxide, but it can escape from other exits as mouth, skin, ear, upper, or lower orifices ? It comes out not on its own, not by its own's will, but with the will of other's the Carbon and other Oxy ? They are stronger in combination and in power; they force you " the living soul -Oxy " out... This CO2 not a dead substance. It has its functions to nourish other things such as trees, plants or other organisms or it will return to the same place where it was in our universe such as gasses in the beginning and wait to join others to produce different form of life " a rebirth " in different figure ??? Why are we touching about this kind of energy " or the soul " ? I think it is important to know that the KEY is if we can conserve the energy within a body, there is no death........ And the energy in life and in our bodies exist not only in thermo, but in combination of the 9 worlds. Again, thanks to Juan for reminding me of the importance of energy, the laws of thermo + dyanmics = thermodynamics. Nam Nguyen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Buddha Shakyamuni talked about 6 realms of existance, i think that is what you are referring to In the other hand you say > I think it is important to know that the KEY is if we can conserve the > energy within a body, there is no death.... Death as society and we emotionally understand it is physically impossible, for the soul being energy cannot be destroyed, anmd if it cannot be destroyed how can anyone say it died? The body decomposes and breaks down into elements which -if not buried in a metal coffin- will eventually nourish the soil and become part of trees, fruits, grass, worms wich in turn are eaten by birds and many other animals and/or insects. Someone will eventually eatr that fruit and some of the elements that belonged to a body are now part of a new human host. So where is death? I see only life, energy transfroming from one state to another one, is this not life? The problem is that we cannot conserve the energy within the body, it is impossible to do that because everything is in constant change as the I-Ching states, and as days go by, our bodies become less energy efficient, just like a car o a cell phone. All our bodies are just recycling matter, they are cars for our souls, and the important part is the driver, not the car, the driver has the personality and the car ill simply obey the driver, of course there are different types of cars designed for different things, just like our bodies. I am currently treating a young man who is in my country working for a transnational company. He was sent here to work for a couple of years. He was sad and thinking that he should not be here, but somewhere " better " . This emotion makes him unhappy, and considering he has to work long hours he has a lot of stress and since he has to work on a computer, his neck obviously suffers the consequences of everything. He has a lot of static blood in his back just where the foot taiyang channel runs through. Cupping and blood letting is neccessary to relieve him, but the real medicine if for him to make the best of his stay, enjoy himself, travel, go to the beach, to the mountains, hike, do yoga, tai-chi. When his emotions get balanced, his body won't suffer. This is the power of shen, but for this to happen, it is necessary for him to look around and connect with his inner self, realize that it is unhealthy to attach to forms and to ideas. But the innerself, his real self, his soul is much more than that, it is much more than qi or energy eventhough it is energy, this energy cannot be transformed, and i don't have the words to describe it... Funny thing is science tries to describe this beautiful universe so that we can try to understand it, just like ancient philosophers tried to do it aor like ancient religions and societies with their particular cosmovision. Humans are so silly, spending their life collecting objects just to leave them behind once they pass away and always trying to understand what life is intead of living it. Juan -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Juan, The young man you described in a stressful environment is a typical ample of other thousands or millions of people in everywhere of the world. This sample person's view and mind pictured a negative thought which in turn has turned or transformed all chemicals in the brain and his body to work in negative responses. Let's say I strongly hate dirts and dirty environment, but I live in a dirty damp pond environment, or I am being forced to live in it or played in a damp pond... What are my reactions and what will I become??? I could have the same picture as this young man. All negative works, feelings, angers, distress, suicide attempts could happen to me because of all chemicals, electricals, mechanical... from my sight are at work- a destructive form of energy- trying to force my living or positive out of my body. As you mentioned earlier, This energy cannot be converted nor transformed. Yes, indeed , if I am not leaving the existing environment, things get worse. However, there is a change because of I-ching... The world is in constant change. In this case, the destructive energy can be transformed into another good living energy again if I am relocating into a positive, happy environment I call this a recharging of a battery. In a new environment, if my mind, sight and soun and happy environment are constantly feeding into my brain, these existing chemicals, electricals, mechanicals, and sound energies must be transformed into a new postive energy to do their proper tasks required by DNA. This will improve my life and I will feel like a champ... Why I said this? Because all energies can be transformed from one form into another, they do not remain constant. If they do life does not exist. Nam Nguyen P.S Life does end because the transformation of energy. It ends in one physical body, but it starts a new life in a new body it forms > I am currently treating a young man who is in my country working for a > transnational company. He was sent here to work for a couple of years. > He was sad and thinking that he should not be here, but somewhere > " better " . This emotion makes him unhappy, and considering he has to work > long hours he has a lot of stress and since he has to work on a > computer, his neck obviously suffers the consequences of everything. The real medicine if for him to make the best of his stay, > enjoy himself, travel, go to the beach, to the mountains, hike, do > yoga, tai-chi. When his emotions get balanced, his body won't suffer. > This is the power of shen, but for this to happen, it is necessary for him to look around and connect with his inner self, realize that it is unhealthy to attach to forms and to ideas. But the innerself, his real self, his soul is much more than that, it is much more than qi or energy eventhough it is energy, this energy cannot be transformed, and i don't have the words to describe it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 I totally agree with you, you can relocate, sometimes it is the best easiest and fastest solution. But what happens if it is not possible? are we then going to live in hell or maybe learn, adapt and make the best out of the circumstances, thus not living then in hell, but in another realm. And here the conversation gets more complicated, the six realms of existance which include heaven, hell. Why am i introducing this new elements? because when a person is in a terrible place for him/her and the emotions are those of suffering, attachment, anger, hatred, we can say that person is living in hell, but if the person can learn, adapt and have feelings of forgiveness of understanding this person, regardless his enviroment can start leaving hell and start entering heaven and we say he/she lives a blissful life. I remember my TCM master, he always told us that TCM is not only needles and moxa and cupping and plants, but helping withg words, call it verbal therapy, and in my experience i have seen that sometimes the right words do a lot more than planst needles, moxa or modern medicine because we have been able to touch the root of the suffering, and this creates motion, a different point of view which changes the feelings and in turn changes the chemical balance of the brain and the rest of the body. Modern science calls this " placebo " , i believe it is the result of connecting with someone's emotions and not feeling alone anymore, the power of love. If there is to be healing, it has to be integral, on the 3 levels Heaven, Man and Earth (heaven: the soul, man: feelings and emotions, earth, the body), otherwise it is not healing, just patching up until it breaks down again, it is not useless though, it gives the person a chance to work on the Man and Heaven levels, so total healing can occur. Seldom do i see those cases, but when i do, it makes it all worth while Juan -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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