Guest guest Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Jason, thanks for all the thoughts. I guess I like my story better because there is a path that can be followed from symptom to symptom with an explanation through the pathomechanism. The issue of intelligence seems to be a wild card that allows for a degree of randomness in treatment and lack of predictibility. But then I haven't studied in this method like David has. So my question as far as the Extreme Yin Xu with extreme damp is: How is a patient with extreme Yin Xu treated as opposed to someone who presents with Exteme Damp coming from Extreme Yin Xu? Doug , " " wrote: > > This conversation between Doug and David is very interesting. David (or > Yuen) is suggesting a story to explain what is an observable phenomenon in > the clinic. Doug does not like the story and favors a different story. Doug > favors a solid mechanism (?), and Yuen explains things through the body's > intelligence(?). (I hope I got that correct) > > > > I will riff a little here :-) > > > > I use the word story for a reason. It is the word that I use to explain what > a pathomechanism is to students. It is the story that gets you from point A > (pattern) to Point B (symptoms). If one has spleen xu with dampness and > dizziness, the pathomechanism is the story that explains why and how this > happens. I think we all agree on that (?). > > > > But IMO essentially any pathomechanism (explanation) is pretty much BS. It > is a theatrical construct made up by the Human mind using the TCM framework. > Now don't get me wrong, I DO think that pathomechanisms are helpful and I > think in these terms often, but I try to stay realistic to what they really > are and how they really help us. > > > > One pitfall is that many times such stories are used to create complex webs > of interrelationships (confusion) when a patient that we totally don't > understand are in front of us. We then label these people knotty or complex > cases and attribute them 4 or 5 patterns. > > > > Really we only know a couple of things. 1) what the patient presents with 2) > what gets them better (in retrospect of course). This is the historical > basis for most of our theory / pathomechanisms. Why this or that happens > (the story) is really only a side note. The pattern is also a (very useful) > secondary side note in the process. This again is a human construction. I > believe this is what Huang Huang (in the Latest Lantern) is getting at. The > SHL has no real complex theory, no patterns (zang-fu), no pathomechanisms, > just s/s, etiologies, and formulas (to a certain extent), Later generations > attribute all the extra stuff. Huang Huang seems to get back to this type of > thinking and really focuses on the clinical pictures. What do you see (what > pattern) and how do you treat it. I find this idea interesting. > > > > So what is my point? > > > > I think either story (Yuen or Doug's) is 100% valid and 100% BS. But why > does one have to be correct and the other not? IF both can treat the problem > through i.e. nourishing yin the story is pretty much just icing on the cake. > > > > -Jason > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Doug, Question: who do you think picks the best of these traditions (excluding others) and inserts its solution into TCM? Furthermore, I think it is pretty well documented that there is a large political force behind many of these decisions. The inclusion or exclusion of certain ideas / traditions are not based on pure efficacy as many would like to believe. How do you think such decisions were and are made? Furthermore, it is hard to really learn the " source of the formula " from just the snapshot (meaning the formulas description in a modern book). I find that studying the context that it was written and other surrounding formulas and idea etc really sheds light on the thinking. In Modern TCM you open a book for a disease and either get 1 of two situations. 1) there are one or two formulas for a given pattern (for a disease). This is of course biased and who knows how it ended up there. Sometimes the formula idea works sometimes it doesn't. For any given situation there might be 10-30 other ideas. The other situation is a list of formulas, i.e. 10 formulas that treat menstrual pain due to blood stasis, that one sifts through and picks. Of course more is better right? But this is also problematic b/c it is snapshots of various doctors thinking. Doctors have very idiosyncratic usages that are difficult to see in such snapshots. Both methods are taken out of context from the original author. Sometimes this does not matter, sometimes it does. Their thinking is rarely described in these list books. The average student will never be able to find the source of the formulas. But of course it is all a matter of degree. And you are right there is nothing that " really " stops one from understanding these deeper points, except Chinese Language in many cases. I am just not convinced that TCM has somehow arrived at the best of the best through some magical distillation process as many like to believe. I am not convinced that all the TCM ideas are based on sound clinical results. Volker S. explores much of this in his writing. His point of view makes sense to me. Thoughts? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:57 PM Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife Perhaps, but the picking of the best of traditions has also been a strength of TCM. Often a one tradition may work for some diseases, or localities while being ineffective in other situations. I think acupuncture has always been problematic. At the same time I don't think we are precluded from learning the source of the formula or acupuncture design. Using the modern bioscience model is something I don't really want to persue except in very particular cases. Doug @ <%40> , " " wrote: > > I think David brings up some good points. I think this jumbled up TCM > collage can many times do more harm than good. This also applies to herbs. > One doctor may use an herb in a certain way, which is very dependent on > context, meaning diagnosis style as well as the medicinals that it is > combined with. It really helps many times to understand the original > doctor's thought process and tradition, instead of the taking the formula. > For example, one can try to make sense of the herbs's functions (in the > formula) based on a modern MM- cohesive view. Many times the intricacies of > the original doctor are completely lost. I have found that this is a > pitfall of modern TCM. > > > > Do other's have some thoughts on this? > > > > -Jason > _____ > > @ <%40> > [@ <%40> ] On Behalf Of david appleton > Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:27 PM > @ <%40> > Re: Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife > > > > Doug, I have studied with Jeffrey for 5 years and I am > not sure you are correct in some of the statements you > are making- 'the body produces phlegm to protect > itself from yin xu'- I believe he means the body holds > onto phlegm as a second class substitute for yin; the > body's intelligence is misguided- Jeffrey offers the > example to illustrate this of menopausal fibroids, > where one would expect the fibroids to shrink but > instead post menopause they increase in size as the > body attempts to retain yin in any form; in jeffrey's > view yin can be used to hold things latent. How the > body decides to deal with a given pathology has more > to do with constitutional factors- the shu points are > not irrigated equally by the rising of jing, so each > person presents with different tendencies- which > becomes the basis of body types etc. I think the ideas > jeffrey presents may seem contradictory because they > are taken from different periods of chinese medicine > and he will diagnose and treat based only on the > tradition he is teaching that week- he may offer > yehuda a completely different formula if he were > treating this issue from a wai ke perspective- which > also deals with neurological issues. Modern TCM tends > to jumble up the traditions and present ideas that are > contradictory when viewed from within the tradition- > eg the school of cooling and cold, vs the ming men pai > or the wai ke school; an example of this is the > listing of point functions in say deadman's book- he > lists all the functions from all the traditions, earth > school, wen bing etc- but it may be that those > functions only work well within the scope of the > tradition and in combination with other points from > the tradition for example in wen bing there is an > emphasis on bloodletting. Hope this helps the > discussion. > > sincerely, > > David Appleton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 Jason, I strongly feel that the thinking of the physician is as important or more important than the final prescription or treatment. I am much more interested in how the Chinese physician arrived at their diagnosis and treatment than just a listing of a pattern and formula. I call these the algorithms of the different currents/schools/physicians. TCM, in my opinion, has done an admirable job in compiling the work of a multitude of physicians and sources,. However, there are major shortcomings in terms of pathomechanisms and the individualization of cases that is best illustrated by illuminating both classical and modern physicians' thinking processes. On Jun 27, 2007, at 9:12 PM, wrote: > Doctors > have very idiosyncratic usages that are difficult to see in such > snapshots. > Both methods are taken out of context from the original author. > Sometimes > this does not matter, sometimes it does. Their thinking is rarely > described > in these list books. The average student will never be able to find > the > source of the formulas. > > But of course it is all a matter of degree. And you are right there is > nothing that " really " stops one from understanding these deeper > points, > except Chinese Language in many cases. > > I am just not convinced that TCM has somehow arrived at the best of > the best > through some magical distillation process as many like to believe. > I am not > convinced that all the TCM ideas are based on sound clinical > results. Volker > S. explores much of this in his writing. His point of view makes > sense to > me. > > Thoughts? Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2007 Report Share Posted June 27, 2007 I think you understand also. The Taoism comes in as far as the body is making decisions. Another question I would have is, if the body is Yin Xu where is this extra Yin coming from? Doug , david appleton <acuapple wrote: > > Doug- i think i understand- another example might be > heat- which in jeffrey's thinking can invite dampness > or fluids as a response to the pathogenic heat- is > that response pathological? Is it an attempt to > balance an excess? Are you questioning whether innate > 'body intelligence' exists? In the menopause fibroid > case if you nourish yin, the body can disregard the > useless yin (pathogenic accumulation) and release the > fibroid, because of the added usable yin- jeffrey > differentiates useful and useless yin- the same idea > might apply to prostatic hypertrophy where turtle > shell can be used to nourish and move the yin stasis- > as far as jeffrey's paradoxical thinking I think that > naturally arises from his Daoist background- do you > disagree with the strategies he proposes? If so what > aspect do you find problematic? > > David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Correction, Doug. He did feel that she had underlying Yin Xu, but that there was clearly signs of improvement based upon Chana's history. Unfortunately, I feel that Dr. Qiu and Zhang each failed because they diagnosed and treated according to orthodox TCM methods. TCM alone just didn't work in Chana's case. Now that we are integrating the three factors that I mentioned: Dividing up the formulas that I am now writing, applying the principles that Z'ev suggested, and now integrating Jeffrey's powder after meals, I am optimistic that we will continue to see progress and improvement. Now, to explain further my understanding of the concept Jeffrey presented, phlegm, from what I understand is the result of fluid stagnation. It is fluid, but not just any fluid--pathogenic fluid, which the body produces in response to heat pathogen or Yin Xu. As I mentioned in a previous post, how else can one explain fluid in response to inflammation forming? Why does a blister have fluid in it? Also please explain your discomfort with the concept of an inner wisdom responding as a protective mechanism to protect against injury or illness. Again, I refer to the examples I listed in the previous post. I'll give you another one: The histamine response to severe allergy. Doug, the issue is not giving the body free choice so that anything goes, the issue is the mechanism of pathogenic fluid generated as a reaction to heat or dryness. One other correction I will suggest: Though I have always called the fluid that presents during Chana's seizures as phlegm, perhaps it really is not. For it is clear, and phlegm is not. Therefore think of this this clear fluid as a pathogenic response to the wind she creates by the movement of her jaw from tremor, thus drying out the clear fluid, and making it thick and sticky--yet clear. Yehuda wrote: Discussing this is a little odd as Yuen decided that it wasn't Yin Xu in Chana's case. Yehuda, I really hope that his formula works for Chana. Having treated a number of cases like Sjorgeon's and sarcoidosis where there is an abundance of phlegm but also deficiency, I know the frustration. Especially with what seems to work TCM wise, don't, as much as we would like. As I remember the formula had a dynamic of going through the MJ that may be very helpful. " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote: > Sounds like a re-wording of the same thing. I almost want to say yes, it's a semantic issue, but ultimately I would say no. (I also wonder how what Yuen says gets filtered to his students.) Yuen has a lot of these paradoxes. I'll try to remember a few, I hope they are accurate from my memory. " Yang holds Cold around Cancer so that it won't spread. " " A pale tongue is actually a sign of heat " . And now with this one, " The body produces Phlegm to protect itself against extreme Yin Xu. " I have no problem if some of these ideas are " true " in a phsiological sense. What I don't like, again, is the idea of the " intelligent " body making decisions for the good of the body. If there are (pathological) changes then they should be named as such and not given agency. So what happens if a body doesn't " decide " to create phlegm? Is the body less intelligent, is it working less than optimumally? All I have been objecting to is the phrase: " he body produces phlegm " In Response to Yin xu " . If one says phlegm is produced " because of " Yin Xu I would be perfectly OK with that. That is a pathomechanism. So I'm also OK when Yehuda states: " But it also makes perfect sense, that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm that accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very pathogenic fluid resulting from severe Yin depletion. " I don't think I'm being overly picky (eyes roll) to say this is different from " pathogenic fluids is a response (the subtext is " a protection " ) from severe Yin depletion " . Again, if you give the body free agency to decide then all things can be true. This perhaps is my issue with Yuen and the many students I have met over the years. Doug , " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote: > > Sounds like a re-wording of the same thing. > > , " " > <taiqi@> wrote: > > > > I'm not convinced that the body produces phlegm in response. I see > > that fluids get disordered because of a Yin Xu and that manifests as > > phlegm. > > Doug > > > It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Toolbar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 As I stated, I agree, Z'ev, and it continues to be a foundation of the approach I am taking, but with one exception: When she is close to seizures or is still vulnerable for more seizures, I have modified her formulas by omitting thick sticky ingredients such as Ji Zi Huang, E Jiao, Bie Jia, and Gui Ban, and I have lowered the dose of Sheng Di Huang. Remember, that Jeffrey specifically felt that the 2 formulas I am using were beneficial and should continue to be used, but that the powdered formula he wrote based upon Liu Wan Su, was to be taken additionally right after meals. BTW, yes, I agree, that the approach of other schools would have resulted in different formulas, but consider if you would the background and approach of Liu Wan Su, as well as the personality of Chana, her drivenness and inability to relax. IMVHO, they really do resonate. All the best, Yehuda <zrosenbe wrote: I'd like to add that I still think that formulas such as da ding feng zhu should be the root of treatment in Chana's case, and not just because I suggested it I understand that in such difficult, frustrating scenarios that there is a tendency to switch from modality to modality, approach to approach, formula to formula, but I don't think this is a healthy thing to do. Jeffrey is a multi- perspective teacher, and he was giving a seminar on Liu Wan-su's cool- cold school, and trying to illustrate cases in this approach. Would he have prescribed Chana differently if he was giving a Li Dong-yuan spleen-stomach seminar, I wonder? On Jun 27, 2007, at 11:32 AM, wrote: > Discussing this is a little odd as Yuen decided that it wasn't Yin Xu > in Chana's case. Yehuda, I really hope that his formula works for > Chana. Having treated a number of cases like Sjorgeon's and > sarcoidosis where there is an abundance of phlegm but also deficiency, > I know the frustration. Especially with what seems to work TCM wise, > don't, as much as we would like. As I remember the formula had a > dynamic of going through the MJ that may be very helpful. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Again, Z'ev, nothing was switched, only added to. <zrosenbe wrote: This was the entire point of my last posting. Chana's prescription was a reflection of what Jeffrey was teaching in this specific seminar. I wonder if such a switch from a more kidney nourishing prescription isn't a bit too radical, however. On Jun 27, 2007, at 12:26 PM, david appleton wrote: > I think the ideas > jeffrey presents may seem contradictory because they > are taken from different periods of chinese medicine > and he will diagnose and treat based only on the > tradition he is teaching that week- he may offer > yehuda a completely different formula if he were > treating this issue from a wai ke perspective- which > also deals with neurological issues. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Jason, I like alot of what you are saying here. I would like to offer one more point: That which is a tradition, oral or written for that matter, has deep roots which support its integration and clinical integrity. That which is innovative and proposed, is only valid until exceptions are found. Then it's adapted to account for those exceptions, and so too each time another objection is presented as to why it doesn't work. It's the same with science. Even reproducable results sometimes don't work. But to quote Miles Davis, " So what? " We mortals (of both the Chinese and Biomedical persuasions) can never conjure up a perfect way to treat and heal all sick or injured people, no matter how good we are and no matter how many trillions of dollars are invested, but if we continue to humbly think, share and learn, especially from our patients, we can grow as fine artists, representing our tradition and our profession with distinction. SIncerely, Yehuda wrote: This conversation between Doug and David is very interesting. David (or Yuen) is suggesting a story to explain what is an observable phenomenon in the clinic. Doug does not like the story and favors a different story. Doug favors a solid mechanism (?), and Yuen explains things through the body's intelligence(?). (I hope I got that correct) I will riff a little here :-) I use the word story for a reason. It is the word that I use to explain what a pathomechanism is to students. It is the story that gets you from point A (pattern) to Point B (symptoms). If one has spleen xu with dampness and dizziness, the pathomechanism is the story that explains why and how this happens. I think we all agree on that (?). But IMO essentially any pathomechanism (explanation) is pretty much BS. It is a theatrical construct made up by the Human mind using the TCM framework. Now don't get me wrong, I DO think that pathomechanisms are helpful and I think in these terms often, but I try to stay realistic to what they really are and how they really help us. One pitfall is that many times such stories are used to create complex webs of interrelationships (confusion) when a patient that we totally don't understand are in front of us. We then label these people knotty or complex cases and attribute them 4 or 5 patterns. Really we only know a couple of things. 1) what the patient presents with 2) what gets them better (in retrospect of course). This is the historical basis for most of our theory / pathomechanisms. Why this or that happens (the story) is really only a side note. The pattern is also a (very useful) secondary side note in the process. This again is a human construction. I believe this is what Huang Huang (in the Latest Lantern) is getting at. The SHL has no real complex theory, no patterns (zang-fu), no pathomechanisms, just s/s, etiologies, and formulas (to a certain extent), Later generations attribute all the extra stuff. Huang Huang seems to get back to this type of thinking and really focuses on the clinical pictures. What do you see (what pattern) and how do you treat it. I find this idea interesting. So what is my point? I think either story (Yuen or Doug's) is 100% valid and 100% BS. But why does one have to be correct and the other not? IF both can treat the problem through i.e. nourishing yin the story is pretty much just icing on the cake. Further example: YinFire - As we discussed a few months back there are multiple explanations on how this process happens. Some say qi sinks, some say dampness sinks, some say nothing sinks and it is really about constraint, yet another says " the yang is too weak to externalize, but rather remains within the yin where it heats up " . I think there are more. But the reality is that they all use the same treatment. Therefore the story is just that. How does understanding and investing one's belief in any of these stories help us clinically? To sum up - I think theory is useful, I for some reason enjoy it, but sometimes I think that the theory in medicine is similar to what happened with Jazz. Early Jazz musicians played what they heard. They rarely knew the theory. Later musicians starting documenting all the complexities and developed theory to explain what was happening in the live moment. Anyone that has studied Jazz (modern day) knows that the theory books are outrageously large and cumbersome. I, as well as many others, believe that this is one reason that many modern jazz musicians are not that great. They can play all the scales, they can play all the songs, they can solo over any change, but can they feel the music and play from the heart? Sometimes they get so wrapped up in the details they forget about what is right in front of them. Can we say the same about medicine? Has modern TCM turned everything into a paint by numbers, or play this scale over this chord type of approach. Are we losing how to really see what is going on right in front of us, the patient???? Just curious what people think about this? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of david appleton Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:58 PM Re: Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife Doug- i think i understand- another example might be heat- which in jeffrey's thinking can invite dampness or fluids as a response to the pathogenic heat- is that response pathological? Is it an attempt to balance an excess? Are you questioning whether innate 'body intelligence' exists? In the menopause fibroid case if you nourish yin, the body can disregard the useless yin (pathogenic accumulation) and release the fibroid, because of the added usable yin- jeffrey differentiates useful and useless yin- the same idea might apply to prostatic hypertrophy where turtle shell can be used to nourish and move the yin stasis- as far as jeffrey's paradoxical thinking I think that naturally arises from his Daoist background- do you disagree with the strategies he proposes? If so what aspect do you find problematic? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Doug, Again, let me clarify: (BTW, when do you guys find time during the day to engage in this long and brilliant discussions?) The pathomechanism which produces pathogenic fluid is heat, mostly excess heat, but also vacuititous heat, ie, Yin xu. I think that the in the case of yin xu it comes more as a result of stagnation, whereas in the case of repletion, it comes more directly, as an inflammatory response. Remember that the fluid in either case is a pathogenic fluid, and so the method of treatment would not be to dry dampness or transform phlegm, which would just exascerbate the problem, but instead to nourish yin and blood, and move Qi and possibly Blood as well. The key is to determine the root. Yehuda wrote: Jason, thanks for all the thoughts. I guess I like my story better because there is a path that can be followed from symptom to symptom with an explanation through the pathomechanism. The issue of intelligence seems to be a wild card that allows for a degree of randomness in treatment and lack of predictibility. But then I haven't studied in this method like David has. So my question as far as the Extreme Yin Xu with extreme damp is: How is a patient with extreme Yin Xu treated as opposed to someone who presents with Exteme Damp coming from Extreme Yin Xu? Doug , " " wrote: > > This conversation between Doug and David is very interesting. David (or > Yuen) is suggesting a story to explain what is an observable phenomenon in > the clinic. Doug does not like the story and favors a different story. Doug > favors a solid mechanism (?), and Yuen explains things through the body's > intelligence(?). (I hope I got that correct) > > > > I will riff a little here :-) > > > > I use the word story for a reason. It is the word that I use to explain what > a pathomechanism is to students. It is the story that gets you from point A > (pattern) to Point B (symptoms). If one has spleen xu with dampness and > dizziness, the pathomechanism is the story that explains why and how this > happens. I think we all agree on that (?). > > > > But IMO essentially any pathomechanism (explanation) is pretty much BS. It > is a theatrical construct made up by the Human mind using the TCM framework. > Now don't get me wrong, I DO think that pathomechanisms are helpful and I > think in these terms often, but I try to stay realistic to what they really > are and how they really help us. > > > > One pitfall is that many times such stories are used to create complex webs > of interrelationships (confusion) when a patient that we totally don't > understand are in front of us. We then label these people knotty or complex > cases and attribute them 4 or 5 patterns. > > > > Really we only know a couple of things. 1) what the patient presents with 2) > what gets them better (in retrospect of course). This is the historical > basis for most of our theory / pathomechanisms. Why this or that happens > (the story) is really only a side note. The pattern is also a (very useful) > secondary side note in the process. This again is a human construction. I > believe this is what Huang Huang (in the Latest Lantern) is getting at. The > SHL has no real complex theory, no patterns (zang-fu), no pathomechanisms, > just s/s, etiologies, and formulas (to a certain extent), Later generations > attribute all the extra stuff. Huang Huang seems to get back to this type of > thinking and really focuses on the clinical pictures. What do you see (what > pattern) and how do you treat it. I find this idea interesting. > > > > So what is my point? > > > > I think either story (Yuen or Doug's) is 100% valid and 100% BS. But why > does one have to be correct and the other not? IF both can treat the problem > through i.e. nourishing yin the story is pretty much just icing on the cake. > > > > -Jason > > > > > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Dear Yehuda, This sounds interesting. Thank you for the clarification, and please keep me posted on her progress. . . On Jun 28, 2007, at 1:42 AM, yehuda frischman wrote: > As I stated, I agree, Z'ev, and it continues to be a foundation of > the approach I am taking, but with one exception: When she is close > to seizures or is still vulnerable for more seizures, I have > modified her formulas by omitting thick sticky ingredients such as > Ji Zi Huang, E Jiao, Bie Jia, and Gui Ban, and I have lowered the > dose of Sheng Di Huang. Remember, that Jeffrey specifically felt > that the 2 formulas I am using were beneficial and should continue > to be used, but that the powdered formula he wrote based upon Liu > Wan Su, was to be taken additionally right after meals. BTW, yes, I > agree, that the approach of other schools would have resulted in > different formulas, but consider if you would the background and > approach of Liu Wan Su, as well as the personality of Chana, her > drivenness and inability to relax. IMVHO, they really do resonate. > > All the best, > > Yehuda > > <zrosenbe wrote: > I'd like to add that I still think that formulas such as da ding feng > zhu should be the root of treatment in Chana's case, and not just > because I suggested it I understand that in such difficult, > frustrating scenarios that there is a tendency to switch from > modality to modality, approach to approach, formula to formula, but I > don't think this is a healthy thing to do. Jeffrey is a multi- > perspective teacher, and he was giving a seminar on Liu Wan-su's cool- > cold school, and trying to illustrate cases in this approach. Would > he have prescribed Chana differently if he was giving a Li Dong-yuan > spleen-stomach seminar, I wonder? > > > On Jun 27, 2007, at 11:32 AM, wrote: > > > Discussing this is a little odd as Yuen decided that it wasn't > Yin Xu > > in Chana's case. Yehuda, I really hope that his formula works for > > Chana. Having treated a number of cases like Sjorgeon's and > > sarcoidosis where there is an abundance of phlegm but also > deficiency, > > I know the frustration. Especially with what seems to work TCM wise, > > don't, as much as we would like. As I remember the formula had a > > dynamic of going through the MJ that may be very helpful. > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Dear Jason, I always remember the statement, " using a feather to move a mountain " in situations such as this. Clear, concise diagnosis that understands the pathomechanisms, utilizing the insight and experience of the physician. On Jun 27, 2007, at 6:34 PM, wrote: > I think David brings up some good points. I think this jumbled up TCM > collage can many times do more harm than good. This also applies to > herbs. > One doctor may use an herb in a certain way, which is very > dependent on > context, meaning diagnosis style as well as the medicinals that it is > combined with. It really helps many times to understand the original > doctor's thought process and tradition, instead of the taking the > formula. > For example, one can try to make sense of the herbs's functions (in > the > formula) based on a modern MM- cohesive view. Many times the > intricacies of > the original doctor are completely lost. I have found that this is a > pitfall of modern TCM. > > Do other's have some thoughts on this? > > -Jason > > _____ > > > On Behalf Of david > appleton > Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:27 PM > > Re: Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife > > Doug, I have studied with Jeffrey for 5 years and I am > not sure you are correct in some of the statements you > are making- 'the body produces phlegm to protect > itself from yin xu'- I believe he means the body holds > onto phlegm as a second class substitute for yin; the > body's intelligence is misguided- Jeffrey offers the > example to illustrate this of menopausal fibroids, > where one would expect the fibroids to shrink but > instead post menopause they increase in size as the > body attempts to retain yin in any form; in jeffrey's > view yin can be used to hold things latent. How the > body decides to deal with a given pathology has more > to do with constitutional factors- the shu points are > not irrigated equally by the rising of jing, so each > person presents with different tendencies- which > becomes the basis of body types etc. I think the ideas > jeffrey presents may seem contradictory because they > are taken from different periods of chinese medicine > and he will diagnose and treat based only on the > tradition he is teaching that week- he may offer > yehuda a completely different formula if he were > treating this issue from a wai ke perspective- which > also deals with neurological issues. Modern TCM tends > to jumble up the traditions and present ideas that are > contradictory when viewed from within the tradition- > eg the school of cooling and cold, vs the ming men pai > or the wai ke school; an example of this is the > listing of point functions in say deadman's book- he > lists all the functions from all the traditions, earth > school, wen bing etc- but it may be that those > functions only work well within the scope of the > tradition and in combination with other points from > the tradition for example in wen bing there is an > emphasis on bloodletting. Hope this helps the > discussion. > > sincerely, > > David Appleton > --- <taiqi (AT) taiqi (DOT) <taiqi%40taiqi.com> > com> wrote: > > > Discussing this is a little odd as Yuen decided that > > it wasn't Yin Xu > > in Chana's case. Yehuda, I really hope that his > > formula works for > > Chana. Having treated a number of cases like > > Sjorgeon's and > > sarcoidosis where there is an abundance of phlegm > > but also deficiency, > > I know the frustration. Especially with what seems > > to work TCM wise, > > don't, as much as we would like. As I remember the > > formula had a > > dynamic of going through the MJ that may be very > > helpful. > > > > " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote: > > > Sounds like a re-wording of the same thing. > > > > I almost want to say yes, it's a semantic issue, but > > ultimately I > > would say no. (I also wonder how what Yuen says gets > > filtered to his > > students.) Yuen has a lot of these paradoxes. I'll > > try to remember a > > few, I hope they are accurate from my memory. " Yang > > holds Cold around > > Cancer so that it won't spread. " " A pale tongue is > > actually a sign of > > heat " . And now with this one, " The body produces > > Phlegm to protect > > itself against extreme Yin Xu. " > > > > I have no problem if some of these ideas are " true " > > in a phsiological > > sense. What I don't like, again, is the idea of the > > " intelligent " body > > making decisions for the good of the body. If there > > are (pathological) > > changes then they should be named as such and not > > given agency. So > > what happens if a body doesn't " decide " to create > > phlegm? Is the body > > less intelligent, is it working less than > > optimumally? > > > > All I have been objecting to is the phrase: " he body > > produces phlegm > > " In Response to Yin xu " . If one says phlegm is > > produced " because of " > > Yin Xu I would be perfectly OK with that. That is a > > pathomechanism. So > > I'm also OK when Yehuda states: " But it also makes > > perfect sense, that > > the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm that > > accompanies Chana's > > seizures is probably this very pathogenic fluid > > resulting from severe > > Yin depletion. " I don't think I'm being overly picky > > (eyes roll) to > > say this is different from " pathogenic fluids is a > > response (the > > subtext is " a protection " ) from severe Yin > > depletion " . > > > > Again, if you give the body free agency to decide > > then all things can > > be true. This perhaps is my issue with Yuen and the > > many students I > > have met over the years. > > > > Doug > > > > @ <% > 40> > , > > " bill_schoenbart " > > <plantmed2 wrote: > > > > > > Sounds like a re-wording of the same thing. > > > > > > @ <% > 40> > , > > " " > > > <taiqi@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm not convinced that the body produces phlegm > > in response. I see > > > > that fluids get disordered because of a Yin Xu > > and that manifests as > > > > phlegm. > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________ > oneSearch: Finally, mobile search > that gives answers, not web links. > http://mobile. <http://mobile./mobileweb/onesearch? > refer=1ONXIC> > /mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Jason, I respectfully disagree. Pathomechanisms in my mind are gems. They are conceptual indeed, but they are tools to help people and alleviate their suffering. We are creatures of mind (and body), and designed to interpret the universe through the tools we are given to do so. On Jun 27, 2007, at 7:53 PM, wrote: > > But IMO essentially any pathomechanism (explanation) is pretty much > BS. It > is a theatrical construct made up by the Human mind using the TCM > framework. > Now don't get me wrong, I DO think that pathomechanisms are helpful > and I > think in these terms often, but I try to stay realistic to what > they really > are and how they really help us. Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Y, I think that it is safe to say that the fluid / situation you describe fits under the category of phlegm. Do others disagree? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Doug, the issue is not giving the body free choice so that anything goes, the issue is the mechanism of pathogenic fluid generated as a reaction to heat or dryness. One other correction I will suggest: Though I have always called the fluid that presents during Chana's seizures as phlegm, perhaps it really is not. For it is clear, and phlegm is not. Therefore think of this this clear fluid as a pathogenic response to the wind she creates by the movement of her jaw from tremor, thus drying out the clear fluid, and making it thick and sticky--yet clear. Yehuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 I agree with Yehuda here. The body has many responses that are deemed pathological " substances " in TCM (i.e. swelling) that are essentially protective measures - body's innate intelligence. I have no problem with that. Maybe TCM does not describe it in this way. Therefore maybe this is a shortcoming of TCM or maybe another tradition within CM describes it better, i.e. Yuen. Comments? -Jason _____ On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Thursday, June 28, 2007 2:32 AM Re: Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife Now, to explain further my understanding of the concept Jeffrey presented, phlegm, from what I understand is the result of fluid stagnation. It is fluid, but not just any fluid--pathogenic fluid, which the body produces in response to heat pathogen or Yin Xu. As I mentioned in a previous post, how else can one explain fluid in response to inflammation forming? Why does a blister have fluid in it? Also please explain your discomfort with the concept of an inner wisdom responding as a protective mechanism to protect against injury or illness. Again, I refer to the examples I listed in the previous post. I'll give you another one: The histamine response to severe allergy. Doug, the issue is not giving the body free choice so that anything goes, the issue is the mechanism of pathogenic fluid generated as a reaction to heat or dryness. One other correction I will suggest: Though I have always called the fluid that presents during Chana's seizures as phlegm, perhaps it really is not. For it is clear, and phlegm is not. Therefore think of this this clear fluid as a pathogenic response to the wind she creates by the movement of her jaw from tremor, thus drying out the clear fluid, and making it thick and sticky--yet clear. Yehuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 One of the things I think we all need to accept about Chinese medicine is its multi-perspective orientation. In other words, there are phenomenologically different ways of looking at a patient. Another way of expressing this would be that one can see a patient as a complex system, and there are a number of ways to interact with a complex system to restore equilibrium to that system. On Jun 28, 2007, at 10:38 AM, wrote: > Z'ev, > > I thought you might disagree. I also somewhat disagree with my > statements. > Meaning I also think pathomechanism are gems. But I would like to > hear more > about how they are " tools to help people heal. " > > And do you think there is any inherent truth in a pathomechanism? > Any time I > see multiple doctors explaining the same phenomenon with different > pathomechanisms I have to wonder how truthful any of them are. That > is why I > believe they are all useful and at the same time all just a story. > Is there > value in having multiple pathomechanisms to explain a single > situation. > (i.e. yinfire). ??? > > How do people conceptualize the value of pathomechanisms? > > -Jason Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 On 6/28/07, wrote: > > How do people conceptualize the value of pathomechanisms? > One value of pathomechanisms is that it cuts down dramatically on the amount of memorization one needs to do while studying TCM (or practicing with swiss cheese for brains). Understanding pathomechanisms also helps one to think outside of the box. Sometimes, I'll see a patient with a chief complaint for which there are specific syndrome differentiations. However perhaps the patient's presentation doesn't show up on that page of differentiations. At that point, you have two choices: 1) Get another book or diff-di source to consult, or 2) treat what you see. I find that option 2 is enhanced by understanding pathomechanisms, its like back-up logic, a TCM thinking spell-check if you will. If you have to make up new pathomechanism, you may be deluding yourself. Perhaps after 30 years of practice, one can begin to do that, but I find too much tweaking of TCM theory by those with little real-world experience to be problematic. I'm not applying that to Jeffrey Yuan, but rather some of the odd-ball theories that come up in the wake of solid TCM framework. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Al, I totally agree. -Jason _____ On Behalf Of Al Stone Thursday, June 28, 2007 12:22 PM Re: Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife On 6/28/07, <@chinesemed <%40Chinese Medicine> icinedoc.com> wrote: > > How do people conceptualize the value of pathomechanisms? > One value of pathomechanisms is that it cuts down dramatically on the amount of memorization one needs to do while studying TCM (or practicing with swiss cheese for brains). Understanding pathomechanisms also helps one to think outside of the box. Sometimes, I'll see a patient with a chief complaint for which there are specific syndrome differentiations. However perhaps the patient's presentation doesn't show up on that page of differentiations. At that point, you have two choices: 1) Get another book or diff-di source to consult, or 2) treat what you see. I find that option 2 is enhanced by understanding pathomechanisms, its like back-up logic, a TCM thinking spell-check if you will. If you have to make up new pathomechanism, you may be deluding yourself. Perhaps after 30 years of practice, one can begin to do that, but I find too much tweaking of TCM theory by those with little real-world experience to be problematic. I'm not applying that to Jeffrey Yuan, but rather some of the odd-ball theories that come up in the wake of solid TCM framework. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 Yes, but to take a conglomeration of different systems and try to integrate them together (or dumb them down--reductionism?) may not work, as has been expressed. BTW, it would seem to me that the clinical success of a TCM treatment has as much to do with the practitioner/patient relationship as it has to do with the therapy. <zrosenbe wrote: One of the things I think we all need to accept about Chinese medicine is its multi-perspective orientation. In other words, there are phenomenologically different ways of looking at a patient. Another way of expressing this would be that one can see a patient as a complex system, and there are a number of ways to interact with a complex system to restore equilibrium to that system. On Jun 28, 2007, at 10:38 AM, wrote: > Z'ev, > > I thought you might disagree. I also somewhat disagree with my > statements. > Meaning I also think pathomechanism are gems. But I would like to > hear more > about how they are " tools to help people heal. " > > And do you think there is any inherent truth in a pathomechanism? > Any time I > see multiple doctors explaining the same phenomenon with different > pathomechanisms I have to wonder how truthful any of them are. That > is why I > believe they are all useful and at the same time all just a story. > Is there > value in having multiple pathomechanisms to explain a single > situation. > (i.e. yinfire). ??? > > How do people conceptualize the value of pathomechanisms? > > -Jason Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 Hi Yehuda Can you direct me to the page you wrote with all her chinese related symptoms? Hot cold, sweat no sweat, time of day, what is different during before and after attack compare to normal state shi xu,etc. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Dear friends, colleagues and teachers, > > It has been some time since I wrote to you of my wife's progress. To recap: 17 years ago, she started having seizures which have occurred cyclically, every 3-4 weeks. Four years later, she started presenting with symptoms in some ways resembling Parkinson's disease. Yet, 5 MRIs, and other scans have all been benign. She is also unable to take Western pharmaceutical medicine, as she has had severe allergic reactions on multiple occasions. What has helped has been seven years of drinking Chinese herbal decoctions. Particularly encouraging has been that in the past year or so, sleep has been much more sound and undisturbed, urination is no longer frequent, and constipation is no longer an issue. But, unfortunately, she continues to have the seizures. Also, her pulses and tongue have also changed in the past year, and she no longer has a dry baked brown coating as before. One other significant consideration that I have mentioned to you before, is the presence of > thick, clear phlegm particularly, during the time that seizures are either expected or have occurred. > > At this time I want to relate to you three significant bits of input that have either contributed within the past 9 months, or I expect will shortly: 1) Last fall when we were in London, we met with a Vietnamese herbal master, Thong Tinh Nguyen. Thong felt that part of the problem was that my wife Chana was not absorbing the nutrients in her formulas. He therefore suggested dividing the formula in half, and since then, Chana has been taking primarily herbs to supplement Qi and transform phlegm AM and herbs to nourish Yin and calm Shen PM. 2) about 4 months ago, we had the pleasure of spending a few hours with my dear friend and our colleague Z'ev Rosenberg, in San Diego. Z'ev remarked that it seemed to him that Chana's liver was doing the work of the Kidneys as well as its own. He suggested that I integrate into her formulas, " Da Ding Feng Zhu " to get to the root of the liver wind: complete exhaustion of the True Kidney Yin. 3) As most of you are reading this, I > am probably in the middle of a second day of seminars with Jeffrey Yuen. (BTW, Chana was chosen as a demonstration patient, and I will report back, G-d willing, on how he viewed her and how it went). On the first day I attended, Friday, he presented a plethora of information, much of which I had never heard nor seen before. (I also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague, Chris Macie). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon: Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin deficiency, the body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This can be seen in fluid resulting from inflammation. But it also makes perfect sense, that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm that accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very pathogenic fluid resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though it would be completely inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs transforming phlegm as we have in the past, and instead, the focus > should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the Qi, to prevent stagnation and accummulation. > > Your thoughts? > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Travel to find your fit. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Hi Kelvin, Unfortunately, I had forgotten that I had posted her history, S/S, and a journal of progress and formulas changed under the guidance of Dr. Ji Zhang in back in 2005, in a different group, Chinese Herbal Medicine. With the permission of the moderators, below please find a couple of posts from that time, the second a few months later in response to the query of a practitioner with a similar scenario: #1 " 15 years ago, my wife of 26 years had the first of many seizures which have occured cyclically every 3 weeks, followed the next week by post-ictal " aftershocks " . 4 years later, she developed Parkinson's like symptoms. Yet the results of numerous MRIs, CTscans and EEGs came out negative. To further complicate the picture, she has proven to be pan-allergic to western medicine and nearly died from a Steven's Johnson reaction to a state of the art anti-convulsant, lamictal. It was because of her condition and the lack of success of the more than 250 practitioners: Western, Oriental, conventional and alternative that we saw, that I decided to close my business of 21 years and study Oriental medicine and Craniosacral therapy. Though the seizures have not yet been resolved, I am seeing definite improvement in her symptoms, and am very hopeful for a full resolution. Western medicine has a passion for putting names to syndromes, and the problem is when they don't fit into the cookbook. So, is it epilepsy? (where's the lesion? They aren't pseudo seizures because they were recorded through telemetry at UCLA) . Is there such a thing as functional epilepsy without a structural hot spot? Is it Parkinson's? The hallmark of Parkinson's is resting tremors, whereas Chana has motion tremors. Bottom line, there are elements of both, but the Western DX has been established as " Sympathetic hypertonicity " . Over the 4 years in school, we worked with all of my clinical supervisors, as well as many of my professors. Each time, it got to the point where they either gave up, or we decided to move on as we were unable to see any change or lasting improvement. Usually, we gave them anywhere between 6 month to a year. A little over a year ago, we began working with my professor, Zhang Ji. His approach has yielded results, and my wife has been very responsive to extremely subtle changes in herbs and dosages. As with any cycle, her tongue and pulse changes at the different stages. As a result, her herbs change weekly. It is my hope that as the fine-tuning process continues, the seizures will cease. In summary, her condition has consisted of excess fire, mixed with deficient heat, yin and blood deficiency, liver wind, and phlegm accumulation. What I would like to do, is bring you on board as we proceed week by week, and present the signs symptoms and herbs with dosages chosen to address them. But before I begin with last Thursday's session, I want to let you know what Ed Kasper has added to the picture. Two weeks ago, he mentioned in a passionate CHA post, " the Parkinson's recovery project " in Santa Cruz. They have apparently cured Parkinson's with just acupuncture and tui na. I looked up their site, and sent for their practitioners handbook. In sum, what Janice Walton-Hadlock found was that injuries to the foot, usually around ST42, created electrical blockages in the Yang ming channels, causing PD. The idea that the yang ming channels qi could get stuck as a result of an injury, and diverted and eventually completely blocked makes a lot of sense I have not received a response from them yet as to whether they have come across cases like Chana's, but it is eye-opening to consider that illness, and not just Parkinson's but other illnesses as well, could be bio-chemically based imbalances, (Yin disorders), electrically based imbalances (Yang disorders) or both. Intriguingly, I began treating her with tuina and CST, in the areas of ST35 and ST31 where in the past she had had significant injuries, and guess what? Her tremors are less! Coincidence? Dumb luck? I don't know. But intriguing and worthy of further study. This development, too, I will appraise you of. Interestingly, as I write this, I flash back to one of our stops, in Switzerland, where a naturopathic MD injected scars, based upon " neural therapy " whereby it is believed that scar tissue blocks the flow of the body's energy and leads to pathology. It is based upon the research of the Huneke brothers in Germany 75 years ago. Anyway, Chana's last seizure was Dec. 29. We saw Dr. Zhang on Jan 6. At the time she had had a very difficult week. Sleep was very poor, constant muscle spasms, very weak, increased nocturia, tongue and chin constantly moving, difficulty comprehending, neck, chin and jaw very sensitive to the touch. Her tongue had little coating, normal body color, red tip and cracks. The pulses were wiry and choppy on both wrists. The formula prescribed was: Sheng di huang 30, xuan shen 15, mai men dong 12, bai shao yao 15, gui ban 15, bie Jia 15, zhen zhu mu 15, yu zhu 12, bai he 15, gou teng 15, sang piao xiao 12, di long 9, chan tui 9, suan zao ren 15, ye jiao teng 12, wu wei zi 9. Taken separately in capsule form: quan xie 3 and wu gong 3, and da huang 3.5 grams daily. Remember, before second guessing, this formula has evolved from more than a year of weekly changes, and is anything but arbitrary. I would be glad to expain or discuss any aspect of the formula should there be any need for clarification. " #2 " I don't know if you have been following my weekly posts concerning my wife who started having seizures 15 years ago. Though she later developed symptoms of Parkinsonism (similar to Parkinson's) 4 years later, they seemed to be sequelae of the seizures. Her situation parallels your brother in that she had 5 MRIs, as well as CTscans, and EEG's all of which showed nothing. You are correct that the essence of seizures is Phlegm which indeed originates from the spleen, and but which also invariably has its origin in kidney yin deficiency and liver wind. However what causes the seizures is the wind/phlegm rising upward and misting the heart channel. Checking his tongue you will most probably see a red tip and his pulses will probably be slippery and wiry. Also, you might note that during or immediately following his seizures, you will be able to hear a phlegmy raspiness in his breathing and he will probably be drooling thick clear phlegm. BTW, my wife was also an artist and a night person who had erratic sleep patterns, and invariably was awake at 1AM (liver time). " All the best, Yehuda acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: Hi Yehuda Can you direct me to the page you wrote with all her chinese related symptoms? Hot cold, sweat no sweat, time of day, what is different during before and after attack compare to normal state shi xu,etc. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Dear friends, colleagues and teachers, > > It has been some time since I wrote to you of my wife's progress. To recap: 17 years ago, she started having seizures which have occurred cyclically, every 3-4 weeks. Four years later, she started presenting with symptoms in some ways resembling Parkinson's disease. Yet, 5 MRIs, and other scans have all been benign. She is also unable to take Western pharmaceutical medicine, as she has had severe allergic reactions on multiple occasions. What has helped has been seven years of drinking Chinese herbal decoctions. Particularly encouraging has been that in the past year or so, sleep has been much more sound and undisturbed, urination is no longer frequent, and constipation is no longer an issue. But, unfortunately, she continues to have the seizures. Also, her pulses and tongue have also changed in the past year, and she no longer has a dry baked brown coating as before. One other significant consideration that I have mentioned to you before, is the presence of > thick, clear phlegm particularly, during the time that seizures are either expected or have occurred. > > At this time I want to relate to you three significant bits of input that have either contributed within the past 9 months, or I expect will shortly: 1) Last fall when we were in London, we met with a Vietnamese herbal master, Thong Tinh Nguyen. Thong felt that part of the problem was that my wife Chana was not absorbing the nutrients in her formulas. He therefore suggested dividing the formula in half, and since then, Chana has been taking primarily herbs to supplement Qi and transform phlegm AM and herbs to nourish Yin and calm Shen PM. 2) about 4 months ago, we had the pleasure of spending a few hours with my dear friend and our colleague Z'ev Rosenberg, in San Diego. Z'ev remarked that it seemed to him that Chana's liver was doing the work of the Kidneys as well as its own. He suggested that I integrate into her formulas, " Da Ding Feng Zhu " to get to the root of the liver wind: complete exhaustion of the True Kidney Yin. 3) As most of you are reading this, I > am probably in the middle of a second day of seminars with Jeffrey Yuen. (BTW, Chana was chosen as a demonstration patient, and I will report back, G-d willing, on how he viewed her and how it went). On the first day I attended, Friday, he presented a plethora of information, much of which I had never heard nor seen before. (I also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague, Chris Macie). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon: Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin deficiency, the body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This can be seen in fluid resulting from inflammation. But it also makes perfect sense, that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm that accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very pathogenic fluid resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though it would be completely inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs transforming phlegm as we have in the past, and instead, the focus > should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the Qi, to prevent stagnation and accummulation. > > Your thoughts? > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > in 45,000 destinations on Travel to find your fit. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Yehuda This more information is good but I was wondering about more information of symptoms along the line of; likes hot/cold, feels better with hot/cold, copious/scanty urine, sweats easily/neversweats, chill/fevers, apetite, mood, energy etc. Is there anything the gives clues to when an attack will occur. What changes during and after, etc. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Hi Kelvin, > > Unfortunately, I had forgotten that I had posted her history, S/S, and a journal of progress and formulas changed under the guidance of Dr. Ji Zhang in back in 2005, in a different group, the Chinese Herbal Medicine. With the permission of the moderators, below please find a couple of posts from that time, the second a few months later in response to the query of a practitioner with a similar scenario: > > > #1 > " 15 years ago, my wife of 26 years had the first of many seizures which > have occured cyclically every 3 weeks, followed the next week by > post-ictal " aftershocks " . 4 years later, she developed Parkinson's like > symptoms. Yet the results of numerous MRIs, CTscans and EEGs came out > negative. To further complicate the picture, she has proven to be > pan-allergic to western medicine and nearly died from a Steven's Johnson > reaction to a state of the art anti-convulsant, lamictal. It was because > of her condition and the lack of success of the more than 250 > practitioners: Western, Oriental, conventional and alternative that we > saw, that I decided to close my business of 21 years and study Oriental > medicine and Craniosacral therapy. Though the seizures have not yet > been resolved, I am seeing definite improvement in her symptoms, and am > very hopeful for a full resolution. > > Western medicine has a passion for putting names to syndromes, and the > problem is when they don't fit into the cookbook. So, is it epilepsy? > (where's the lesion? They aren't pseudo seizures because they were > recorded through telemetry at UCLA) . Is there such a thing as functional > epilepsy without a structural hot spot? Is it Parkinson's? The hallmark > of Parkinson's is resting tremors, whereas Chana has motion tremors. > Bottom line, there are elements of both, but the Western DX has been > established as " Sympathetic hypertonicity " . > > Over the 4 years in school, we worked with all of my clinical > supervisors, as well as many of my professors. Each time, it got to the > point where they either gave up, or we decided to move on as we were > unable to see any change or lasting improvement. Usually, we gave them > anywhere between 6 month to a year. A little over a year ago, we began > working with my professor, Zhang Ji. His approach has yielded results, > and my wife has been very responsive to extremely subtle changes in herbs > and dosages. As with any cycle, her tongue and pulse changes at the > different stages. As a result, her herbs change weekly. It is my hope > that as the fine-tuning process continues, the seizures will cease. In > summary, her condition has consisted of excess fire, mixed with > deficient heat, yin and blood deficiency, liver wind, and phlegm > accumulation. > > What I would like to do, is bring you on board as we proceed week by > week, and present the signs symptoms and herbs with dosages chosen to > address them. > > But before I begin with last Thursday's session, I want to let you know > what Ed Kasper has added to the picture. Two weeks ago, he mentioned > in a passionate CHA post, " the Parkinson's recovery project " in Santa > Cruz. They have apparently cured Parkinson's with just acupuncture and > tui na. I looked up their site, and sent for their practitioners > handbook. In sum, what Janice Walton-Hadlock found was that injuries to > the foot, usually around ST42, created electrical blockages in the Yang > ming channels, causing PD. The idea that the yang ming channels qi could > get stuck as a result of an injury, and diverted and eventually > completely blocked makes a lot of sense I have not received a response > from them yet as to whether they have come across cases like Chana's, but > it is eye-opening to consider that illness, and not just Parkinson's but > other illnesses as well, could be bio-chemically based imbalances, (Yin > disorders), electrically based imbalances (Yang disorders) or both. > Intriguingly, I began treating her with tuina and CST, in the areas of > ST35 and ST31 where in the past she had had significant injuries, and > guess what? Her tremors are less! Coincidence? Dumb luck? I don't > know. But intriguing and worthy of further study. This development, > too, I will appraise you of. Interestingly, as I write this, I flash > back to one of our stops, in Switzerland, where a naturopathic MD > injected scars, based upon " neural therapy " whereby it is believed that > scar tissue blocks the flow of the body's energy and leads to pathology. > It is based upon the research of the Huneke brothers in Germany 75 > years ago. > > Anyway, Chana's last seizure was Dec. 29. We saw Dr. Zhang on Jan 6. At > the time she had had a very difficult week. Sleep was very poor, > constant muscle spasms, very weak, increased nocturia, tongue and chin > constantly moving, difficulty comprehending, neck, chin and jaw very > sensitive to the touch. Her tongue had little coating, normal body > color, red tip and cracks. The pulses were wiry and choppy on both > wrists. > > The formula prescribed was: Sheng di huang 30, xuan shen 15, mai men > dong 12, bai shao yao 15, gui ban 15, bie Jia 15, zhen zhu mu 15, > yu zhu 12, bai he 15, gou teng 15, sang piao xiao 12, di long 9, chan tui > 9, suan zao ren 15, ye jiao teng 12, wu wei zi 9. Taken separately in > capsule form: quan xie 3 and wu gong 3, and da huang 3.5 grams daily. > > Remember, before second guessing, this formula has evolved from more > than a year of weekly changes, and is anything but arbitrary. I would be > glad to expain or discuss any aspect of the formula should there be any > need for clarification. " > > #2 > > " I don't know if you have been following my weekly posts concerning my > wife who started having seizures 15 years ago. Though she later > developed symptoms of Parkinsonism (similar to Parkinson's) 4 years > later, they seemed to be sequelae of the seizures. Her situation > parallels your brother in that she had 5 MRIs, as well as CTscans, and > EEG's all of which showed nothing. You are correct that the essence of > seizures is Phlegm which indeed originates from the spleen, and but which > also invariably has its origin in kidney yin deficiency and liver wind. > However what causes the seizures is the wind/phlegm rising upward and > misting the heart channel. Checking his tongue you will most probably > see a red tip and his pulses will probably be slippery and wiry. Also, > you might note that during or immediately following his seizures, you > will be able to hear a phlegmy raspiness in his breathing and he will > probably be drooling thick clear phlegm. BTW, my wife was also an artist > and a night person who had erratic sleep patterns, and invariably was > awake at 1AM (liver time). " > > All the best, > > Yehuda > > acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > Hi Yehuda > > Can you direct me to the page you wrote with all her chinese related > symptoms? Hot cold, sweat no sweat, time of day, what is different > during before and after attack compare to normal state shi xu,etc. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman > <@> wrote: > > > > Dear friends, colleagues and teachers, > > > > It has been some time since I wrote to you of my wife's > progress. To recap: 17 years ago, she started having seizures which > have occurred cyclically, every 3-4 weeks. Four years later, she > started presenting with symptoms in some ways resembling Parkinson's > disease. Yet, 5 MRIs, and other scans have all been benign. She is > also unable to take Western pharmaceutical medicine, as she has had > severe allergic reactions on multiple occasions. What has helped has > been seven years of drinking Chinese herbal decoctions. Particularly > encouraging has been that in the past year or so, sleep has been much > more sound and undisturbed, urination is no longer frequent, and > constipation is no longer an issue. But, unfortunately, she > continues to have the seizures. Also, her pulses and tongue have > also changed in the past year, and she no longer has a dry baked > brown coating as before. One other significant consideration that I > have mentioned to you before, is the presence of > > thick, clear phlegm particularly, during the time that seizures > are either expected or have occurred. > > > > At this time I want to relate to you three significant bits of > input that have either contributed within the past 9 months, or I > expect will shortly: 1) Last fall when we were in London, we met > with a Vietnamese herbal master, Thong Tinh Nguyen. Thong felt that > part of the problem was that my wife Chana was not absorbing the > nutrients in her formulas. He therefore suggested dividing the > formula in half, and since then, Chana has been taking primarily > herbs to supplement Qi and transform phlegm AM and herbs to nourish > Yin and calm Shen PM. 2) about 4 months ago, we had the pleasure of > spending a few hours with my dear friend and our colleague Z'ev > Rosenberg, in San Diego. Z'ev remarked that it seemed to him that > Chana's liver was doing the work of the Kidneys as well as its own. > He suggested that I integrate into her formulas, " Da Ding Feng Zhu " > to get to the root of the liver wind: complete exhaustion of the True > Kidney Yin. 3) As most of you are reading this, I > > am probably in the middle of a second day of seminars with Jeffrey > Yuen. (BTW, Chana was chosen as a demonstration patient, and I will > report back, G-d willing, on how he viewed her and how it went). On > the first day I attended, Friday, he presented a plethora of > information, much of which I had never heard nor seen before. (I > also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague, Chris > Macie). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon: > Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin > deficiency, the body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This > can be seen in fluid resulting from inflammation. But it also makes > perfect sense, that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm that > accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very pathogenic fluid > resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though it would be completely > inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs transforming phlegm > as we have in the past, and instead, the focus > > should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the Qi, > to prevent stagnation and accummulation. > > > > Your thoughts? > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > > in 45,000 destinations on Travel to find your fit. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 All right I will address your specifics: " likes hot/cold " - She likes cool and room temperature drinks " feels better with hot/cold " - She hate hot weather. Here in California we don't get too much cold as you know. " copious/scanty urine " - Urination, which is light yellow, is neither copious, nor scanty currently, however, it is more frequent since beginning the powdered formula based upon Liu Wan-su. , " sweats easily/neversweats " -No night sweats, never sweats except in exceptionally hot weather, and then sweats day and night. " chill/fevers " none, n/a " appetite " - excellent " mood " -sensitive to the mood of those around her. " energy " -completely dependent on the amount of sound sleep she gets. " Is there anything the gives clues to when an attack will occur. " Some major clues: 1. Generally poor sleep on the two preceding nights, 2. increase in drooling clear phlegm, 3. significant drop in strength and energy, 4. increased irritability 5. Increased muscle spasms and tremor, 6. tends to be constipated " What changes during and after " - Essentially the same as the previous answer, with greater fatigue and tremendous pain and irritability. acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: Yehuda This more information is good but I was wondering about more information of symptoms along the line of; likes hot/cold, feels better with hot/cold, copious/scanty urine, sweats easily/neversweats, chill/fevers, apetite, mood, energy etc. Is there anything the gives clues to when an attack will occur. What changes during and after, etc. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: > > Hi Kelvin, > > Unfortunately, I had forgotten that I had posted her history, S/S, and a journal of progress and formulas changed under the guidance of Dr. Ji Zhang in back in 2005, in a different group, the Chinese Herbal Medicine. With the permission of the moderators, below please find a couple of posts from that time, the second a few months later in response to the query of a practitioner with a similar scenario: > > > #1 > " 15 years ago, my wife of 26 years had the first of many seizures which > have occured cyclically every 3 weeks, followed the next week by > post-ictal " aftershocks " . 4 years later, she developed Parkinson's like > symptoms. Yet the results of numerous MRIs, CTscans and EEGs came out > negative. To further complicate the picture, she has proven to be > pan-allergic to western medicine and nearly died from a Steven's Johnson > reaction to a state of the art anti-convulsant, lamictal. It was because > of her condition and the lack of success of the more than 250 > practitioners: Western, Oriental, conventional and alternative that we > saw, that I decided to close my business of 21 years and study Oriental > medicine and Craniosacral therapy. Though the seizures have not yet > been resolved, I am seeing definite improvement in her symptoms, and am > very hopeful for a full resolution. > > Western medicine has a passion for putting names to syndromes, and the > problem is when they don't fit into the cookbook. So, is it epilepsy? > (where's the lesion? They aren't pseudo seizures because they were > recorded through telemetry at UCLA) . Is there such a thing as functional > epilepsy without a structural hot spot? Is it Parkinson's? The hallmark > of Parkinson's is resting tremors, whereas Chana has motion tremors. > Bottom line, there are elements of both, but the Western DX has been > established as " Sympathetic hypertonicity " . > > Over the 4 years in school, we worked with all of my clinical > supervisors, as well as many of my professors. Each time, it got to the > point where they either gave up, or we decided to move on as we were > unable to see any change or lasting improvement. Usually, we gave them > anywhere between 6 month to a year. A little over a year ago, we began > working with my professor, Zhang Ji. His approach has yielded results, > and my wife has been very responsive to extremely subtle changes in herbs > and dosages. As with any cycle, her tongue and pulse changes at the > different stages. As a result, her herbs change weekly. It is my hope > that as the fine-tuning process continues, the seizures will cease. In > summary, her condition has consisted of excess fire, mixed with > deficient heat, yin and blood deficiency, liver wind, and phlegm > accumulation. > > What I would like to do, is bring you on board as we proceed week by > week, and present the signs symptoms and herbs with dosages chosen to > address them. > > But before I begin with last Thursday's session, I want to let you know > what Ed Kasper has added to the picture. Two weeks ago, he mentioned > in a passionate CHA post, " the Parkinson's recovery project " in Santa > Cruz. They have apparently cured Parkinson's with just acupuncture and > tui na. I looked up their site, and sent for their practitioners > handbook. In sum, what Janice Walton-Hadlock found was that injuries to > the foot, usually around ST42, created electrical blockages in the Yang > ming channels, causing PD. The idea that the yang ming channels qi could > get stuck as a result of an injury, and diverted and eventually > completely blocked makes a lot of sense I have not received a response > from them yet as to whether they have come across cases like Chana's, but > it is eye-opening to consider that illness, and not just Parkinson's but > other illnesses as well, could be bio-chemically based imbalances, (Yin > disorders), electrically based imbalances (Yang disorders) or both. > Intriguingly, I began treating her with tuina and CST, in the areas of > ST35 and ST31 where in the past she had had significant injuries, and > guess what? Her tremors are less! Coincidence? Dumb luck? I don't > know. But intriguing and worthy of further study. This development, > too, I will appraise you of. Interestingly, as I write this, I flash > back to one of our stops, in Switzerland, where a naturopathic MD > injected scars, based upon " neural therapy " whereby it is believed that > scar tissue blocks the flow of the body's energy and leads to pathology. > It is based upon the research of the Huneke brothers in Germany 75 > years ago. > > Anyway, Chana's last seizure was Dec. 29. We saw Dr. Zhang on Jan 6. At > the time she had had a very difficult week. Sleep was very poor, > constant muscle spasms, very weak, increased nocturia, tongue and chin > constantly moving, difficulty comprehending, neck, chin and jaw very > sensitive to the touch. Her tongue had little coating, normal body > color, red tip and cracks. The pulses were wiry and choppy on both > wrists. > > The formula prescribed was: Sheng di huang 30, xuan shen 15, mai men > dong 12, bai shao yao 15, gui ban 15, bie Jia 15, zhen zhu mu 15, > yu zhu 12, bai he 15, gou teng 15, sang piao xiao 12, di long 9, chan tui > 9, suan zao ren 15, ye jiao teng 12, wu wei zi 9. Taken separately in > capsule form: quan xie 3 and wu gong 3, and da huang 3.5 grams daily. > > Remember, before second guessing, this formula has evolved from more > than a year of weekly changes, and is anything but arbitrary. I would be > glad to expain or discuss any aspect of the formula should there be any > need for clarification. " > > #2 > > " I don't know if you have been following my weekly posts concerning my > wife who started having seizures 15 years ago. Though she later > developed symptoms of Parkinsonism (similar to Parkinson's) 4 years > later, they seemed to be sequelae of the seizures. Her situation > parallels your brother in that she had 5 MRIs, as well as CTscans, and > EEG's all of which showed nothing. You are correct that the essence of > seizures is Phlegm which indeed originates from the spleen, and but which > also invariably has its origin in kidney yin deficiency and liver wind. > However what causes the seizures is the wind/phlegm rising upward and > misting the heart channel. Checking his tongue you will most probably > see a red tip and his pulses will probably be slippery and wiry. Also, > you might note that during or immediately following his seizures, you > will be able to hear a phlegmy raspiness in his breathing and he will > probably be drooling thick clear phlegm. BTW, my wife was also an artist > and a night person who had erratic sleep patterns, and invariably was > awake at 1AM (liver time). " > > All the best, > > Yehuda > > acupuncturebeverlyhills <acupuncturebeverlyhills wrote: > Hi Yehuda > > Can you direct me to the page you wrote with all her chinese related > symptoms? Hot cold, sweat no sweat, time of day, what is different > during before and after attack compare to normal state shi xu,etc. > > Kelvin > > Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman > <@> wrote: > > > > Dear friends, colleagues and teachers, > > > > It has been some time since I wrote to you of my wife's > progress. To recap: 17 years ago, she started having seizures which > have occurred cyclically, every 3-4 weeks. Four years later, she > started presenting with symptoms in some ways resembling Parkinson's > disease. Yet, 5 MRIs, and other scans have all been benign. She is > also unable to take Western pharmaceutical medicine, as she has had > severe allergic reactions on multiple occasions. What has helped has > been seven years of drinking Chinese herbal decoctions. Particularly > encouraging has been that in the past year or so, sleep has been much > more sound and undisturbed, urination is no longer frequent, and > constipation is no longer an issue. But, unfortunately, she > continues to have the seizures. Also, her pulses and tongue have > also changed in the past year, and she no longer has a dry baked > brown coating as before. One other significant consideration that I > have mentioned to you before, is the presence of > > thick, clear phlegm particularly, during the time that seizures > are either expected or have occurred. > > > > At this time I want to relate to you three significant bits of > input that have either contributed within the past 9 months, or I > expect will shortly: 1) Last fall when we were in London, we met > with a Vietnamese herbal master, Thong Tinh Nguyen. Thong felt that > part of the problem was that my wife Chana was not absorbing the > nutrients in her formulas. He therefore suggested dividing the > formula in half, and since then, Chana has been taking primarily > herbs to supplement Qi and transform phlegm AM and herbs to nourish > Yin and calm Shen PM. 2) about 4 months ago, we had the pleasure of > spending a few hours with my dear friend and our colleague Z'ev > Rosenberg, in San Diego. Z'ev remarked that it seemed to him that > Chana's liver was doing the work of the Kidneys as well as its own. > He suggested that I integrate into her formulas, " Da Ding Feng Zhu " > to get to the root of the liver wind: complete exhaustion of the True > Kidney Yin. 3) As most of you are reading this, I > > am probably in the middle of a second day of seminars with Jeffrey > Yuen. (BTW, Chana was chosen as a demonstration patient, and I will > report back, G-d willing, on how he viewed her and how it went). On > the first day I attended, Friday, he presented a plethora of > information, much of which I had never heard nor seen before. (I > also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague, Chris > Macie). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon: > Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin > deficiency, the body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This > can be seen in fluid resulting from inflammation. But it also makes > perfect sense, that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm that > accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very pathogenic fluid > resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though it would be completely > inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs transforming phlegm > as we have in the past, and instead, the focus > > should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the Qi, > to prevent stagnation and accummulation. > > > > Your thoughts? > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels > > in 45,000 destinations on Travel to find your fit. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.