seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife

[Guest guest]

Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

 

It has been some time since I wrote to you of my wife's progress. To recap:

17 years ago, she started having seizures which have occurred cyclically, every

3-4 weeks. Four years later, she started presenting with symptoms in some ways

resembling Parkinson's disease. Yet, 5 MRIs, and other scans have all been

benign. She is also unable to take Western pharmaceutical medicine, as she has

had severe allergic reactions on multiple occasions. What has helped has been

seven years of drinking Chinese herbal decoctions. Particularly encouraging has

been that in the past year or so, sleep has been much more sound and

undisturbed, urination is no longer frequent, and constipation is no longer an

issue. But, unfortunately, she continues to have the seizures. Also, her

pulses and tongue have also changed in the past year, and she no longer has a

dry baked brown coating as before. One other significant consideration that I

have mentioned to you before, is the presence of

thick, clear phlegm particularly, during the time that seizures are either

expected or have occurred.

 

At this time I want to relate to you three significant bits of input that have

either contributed within the past 9 months, or I expect will shortly: 1)

Last fall when we were in London, we met with a Vietnamese herbal master, Thong

Tinh Nguyen. Thong felt that part of the problem was that my wife Chana was not

absorbing the nutrients in her formulas. He therefore suggested dividing the

formula in half, and since then, Chana has been taking primarily herbs to

supplement Qi and transform phlegm AM and herbs to nourish Yin and calm Shen PM.

2) about 4 months ago, we had the pleasure of spending a few hours with my dear

friend and our colleague , in San Diego. Z'ev remarked that it

seemed to him that Chana's liver was doing the work of the Kidneys as well as

its own. He suggested that I integrate into her formulas, " Da Ding Feng Zhu " to

get to the root of the liver wind: complete exhaustion of the True Kidney Yin.

3) As most of you are reading this, I

am probably in the middle of a second day of seminars with Jeffrey Yuen. (BTW,

Chana was chosen as a demonstration patient, and I will report back, G-d

willing, on how he viewed her and how it went). On the first day I attended,

Friday, he presented a plethora of information, much of which I had never heard

nor seen before. (I also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague,

). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon:

Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin deficiency, the

body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This can be seen in fluid

resulting from inflammation. But it also makes perfect sense, that the

tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm that accompanies Chana's seizures is

probably this very pathogenic fluid resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though

it would be completely inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs

transforming phlegm as we have in the past, and instead, the focus

should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the Qi, to prevent

stagnation and accummulation.

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels

in 45,000 destinations on Travel to find your fit.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Yehuda,

 

I have seen this approach to treatment mentioned in Steven Claveys " Fluid

physiology & Pathology " . On page 319 he states that one of the ways to deal

with phlegm deriving from Yin deficiency with fire is to moisten yin fluids

to reduce fire. He then goes on to quote Pang An-Shi: " if yin water is

deficient, yin fire will flare up to the Lungs, (and eventually lead) to

phlegm, This should be treated with a moistening prescription... Moistening

the yin will lead the rebelling fire downward. into its proper place, and

the phlegm will clear of itself. "

 

Hope this help

Guy

 

 

2007/6/25, :

>

> Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

>

> It has been some time since I wrote to you of my wife's progress. To

> recap: 17 years ago, she started having seizures which have occurred

> cyclically, every 3-4 weeks. Four years later, she started presenting with

> symptoms in some ways resembling Parkinson's disease. Yet, 5 MRIs, and other

> scans have all been benign. She is also unable to take Western

> pharmaceutical medicine, as she has had severe allergic reactions on

> multiple occasions. What has helped has been seven years of drinking Chinese

> herbal decoctions. Particularly encouraging has been that in the past year

> or so, sleep has been much more sound and undisturbed, urination is no

> longer frequent, and constipation is no longer an issue. But, unfortunately,

> she continues to have the seizures. Also, her pulses and tongue have also

> changed in the past year, and she no longer has a dry baked brown coating as

> before. One other significant consideration that I have mentioned to you

> before, is the presence of

> thick, clear phlegm particularly, during the time that seizures are either

> expected or have occurred.

>

> At this time I want to relate to you three significant bits of input that

> have either contributed within the past 9 months, or I expect will shortly:

> 1) Last fall when we were in London, we met with a Vietnamese herbal master,

> Thong Tinh Nguyen. Thong felt that part of the problem was that my wife

> Chana was not absorbing the nutrients in her formulas. He therefore

> suggested dividing the formula in half, and since then, Chana has been

> taking primarily herbs to supplement Qi and transform phlegm AM and herbs to

> nourish Yin and calm Shen PM. 2) about 4 months ago, we had the pleasure of

> spending a few hours with my dear friend and our colleague ,

> in San Diego. Z'ev remarked that it seemed to him that Chana's liver was

> doing the work of the Kidneys as well as its own. He suggested that I

> integrate into her formulas, " Da Ding Feng Zhu " to get to the root of the

> liver wind: complete exhaustion of the True Kidney Yin. 3) As most of you

> are reading this, I

> am probably in the middle of a second day of seminars with Jeffrey Yuen.

> (BTW, Chana was chosen as a demonstration patient, and I will report back,

> G-d willing, on how he viewed her and how it went). On the first day I

> attended, Friday, he presented a plethora of information, much of which I

> had never heard nor seen before. (I also had the pleasure of meeting our

> esteemed colleague, ). Among the details was one that hit me like

> a lead balloon: Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin

> deficiency, the body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This can be

> seen in fluid resulting from inflammation. But it also makes perfect sense,

> that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm that accompanies Chana's

> seizures is probably this very pathogenic fluid resulting from severe Yin

> depletion. Though it would be completely inappropriate, it would seem to me,

> to use herbs transforming phlegm as we have in the past, and instead, the

> focus

> should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the Qi, to

> prevent stagnation and accummulation.

>

> Your thoughts?

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels

> in 45,000 destinations on Travel to find your fit.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Yehuda:

 

From everything you have described, if your assessment determined the root of

her problem is severe Yin depletion, then treat the root, move the Qi. It is as

I was taught.

th

 

wrote:

Dear friends, colleagues and teachers,

 

It has been some time since I wrote to you of my wife's progress. To recap: 17

years ago, she started having seizures which have occurred cyclically, every 3-4

weeks. Four years later, she started presenting with symptoms in some ways

resembling Parkinson's disease. Yet, 5 MRIs, and other scans have all been

benign. She is also unable to take Western pharmaceutical medicine, as she has

had severe allergic reactions on multiple occasions. What has helped has been

seven years of drinking Chinese herbal decoctions. Particularly encouraging has

been that in the past year or so, sleep has been much more sound and

undisturbed, urination is no longer frequent, and constipation is no longer an

issue. But, unfortunately, she continues to have the seizures. Also, her pulses

and tongue have also changed in the past year, and she no longer has a dry baked

brown coating as before. One other significant consideration that I have

mentioned to you before, is the presence of

thick, clear phlegm particularly, during the time that seizures are either

expected or have occurred.

 

At this time I want to relate to you three significant bits of input that have

either contributed within the past 9 months, or I expect will shortly: 1) Last

fall when we were in London, we met with a Vietnamese herbal master, Thong Tinh

Nguyen. Thong felt that part of the problem was that my wife Chana was not

absorbing the nutrients in her formulas. He therefore suggested dividing the

formula in half, and since then, Chana has been taking primarily herbs to

supplement Qi and transform phlegm AM and herbs to nourish Yin and calm Shen PM.

2) about 4 months ago, we had the pleasure of spending a few hours with my dear

friend and our colleague , in San Diego. Z'ev remarked that it

seemed to him that Chana's liver was doing the work of the Kidneys as well as

its own. He suggested that I integrate into her formulas, " Da Ding Feng Zhu " to

get to the root of the liver wind: complete exhaustion of the True Kidney Yin.

3) As most of you are reading this, I

am probably in the middle of a second day of seminars with Jeffrey Yuen. (BTW,

Chana was chosen as a demonstration patient, and I will report back, G-d

willing, on how he viewed her and how it went). On the first day I attended,

Friday, he presented a plethora of information, much of which I had never heard

nor seen before. (I also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague,

). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon: Jeffrey

mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin deficiency, the body

produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This can be seen in fluid resulting

from inflammation. But it also makes perfect sense, that the tremendous amount

of clear sticky phlegm that accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very

pathogenic fluid resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though it would be

completely inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs transforming phlegm

as we have in the past, and instead, the focus

should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the Qi, to prevent

stagnation and accummulation.

 

Your thoughts?

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels

in 45,000 destinations on Travel to find your fit.

 

 

[Guest guest]

A complete sidestep and i am not discounting what you have done with TCM and

continue to do, but does she have a mouth full of amalgam fillings? - there is a

link with mercury and seizures and all the good TCM work may be trying to fill a

bucket that has holes in it. just a thought.

 

all the best

 

Stephen

 

 

-------------

This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

 

I recently finished editing a text on Parkinsons for PMPH in Beijing.

It will be published within the next month or two. You may want to

have a look. I'll let you know when its available.

 

Also I came across a free online book that you may have already seen ..

 

go to

http://www.pdrecovery.org/publications/index.htm#get

 

Hope this helps.

 

Skip

[Guest guest]

I recall a case around 18 years ago in the school clinic when I was

a student. A patient with chronic nasal and sinus congestion was

getting no results. The practitioner who saw her next decided that

the phlegm was a response to yin deficiency. When he nourished the

yin, the phlegm went away.

 

I have no idea if this would apply in your wife's case.

 

- Bill

 

 

 

>>>On the first day I attended, Friday, he presented a plethora of

information, much of which I had never heard nor seen before. (I

also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague, Chris

Macie). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon:

Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin

deficiency, the body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This

can be seen in fluid resulting from inflammation. But it also makes

perfect sense, that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm

that accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very pathogenic

fluid resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though it would be

completely inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs

transforming phlegm as we have in the past, and instead, the focus

> should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the

Qi, to prevent stagnation and accummulation.

>

> Your thoughts?

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not convinced that the body produces phlegm in response. I see

that fluids get disordered because of a Yin Xu and that manifests as

phlegm.

Doug

 

, " bill_schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> I recall a case around 18 years ago in the school clinic when I was

> a student. A patient with chronic nasal and sinus congestion was

> getting no results. The practitioner who saw her next decided that

> the phlegm was a response to yin deficiency. When he nourished the

> yin, the phlegm went away.

>

> I have no idea if this would apply in your wife's case.

>

> - Bill

>

>

>

> >>>On the first day I attended, Friday, he presented a plethora of

> information, much of which I had never heard nor seen before. (I

> also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague, Chris

> Macie). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon:

> Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin

> deficiency, the body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This

> can be seen in fluid resulting from inflammation. But it also makes

> perfect sense, that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm

> that accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very pathogenic

> fluid resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though it would be

> completely inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs

> transforming phlegm as we have in the past, and instead, the focus

> > should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the

> Qi, to prevent stagnation and accummulation.

> >

> > Your thoughts?

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Doug,

 

I must clarify: This is not ordinary phlegm as one has with congestion--this

is clear, thick, sticky phlegm, which specifically increases around seizures,

and does not respond at all well to herbs like Dan Nan Xing.

 

Y

 

wrote:

I'm not convinced that the body produces phlegm in response. I see

that fluids get disordered because of a Yin Xu and that manifests as

phlegm.

Doug

 

, " bill_schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> I recall a case around 18 years ago in the school clinic when I was

> a student. A patient with chronic nasal and sinus congestion was

> getting no results. The practitioner who saw her next decided that

> the phlegm was a response to yin deficiency. When he nourished the

> yin, the phlegm went away.

>

> I have no idea if this would apply in your wife's case.

>

> - Bill

>

>

>

> >>>On the first day I attended, Friday, he presented a plethora of

> information, much of which I had never heard nor seen before. (I

> also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague, Chris

> Macie). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon:

> Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin

> deficiency, the body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This

> can be seen in fluid resulting from inflammation. But it also makes

> perfect sense, that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm

> that accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very pathogenic

> fluid resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though it would be

> completely inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs

> transforming phlegm as we have in the past, and instead, the focus

> > should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the

> Qi, to prevent stagnation and accummulation.

> >

> > Your thoughts?

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda,

 

I recently finished editing a text on Parkinsons for PMPH in Beijing.

It will be published within the next month or two. You may want to

have a look. I'll let you know when its available.

 

Also I came across a free online book that you may have already seen ..

 

go to

http://www.pdrecovery.org/publications/index.htm#get

 

Hope this helps.

 

Skip

[Guest guest]

Hi Skip,

 

Thanks so much. We are quite familiar with the Santa Cruz Parkinson's

Recovery team, and 2 years ago drove up there and were treated by them. I have

the book and integrate their methodology into our protocol. Though they agreed

to treat her, they also concurred that what Chana has is not Parkinson's and

there is no deficiency of Dopamine. Just exhaustion from the seizures. I will

be writing to the group later about our adventure today with Jeffrey Yuen,

formulating an approach based upon Liu Wan Su's school of Cooling and Cold.

 

All the best,

 

Yehuda

skip8080 <skip8080 wrote:

Yehuda,

 

I recently finished editing a text on Parkinsons for PMPH in Beijing.

It will be published within the next month or two. You may want to

have a look. I'll let you know when its available.

 

Also I came across a free online book that you may have already seen ..

 

go to

http://www.pdrecovery.org/publications/index.htm#get

 

Hope this helps.

 

Skip

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fish are biting.

Get more visitors on your site using Search Marketing.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Doug,

 

 

 

But if there is heat from yin xu (which is quite common) than this can cause

phlegm (fire decocts fluids).

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of

Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:31 AM

 

Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife

 

 

 

I'm not convinced that the body produces phlegm in response. I see

that fluids get disordered because of a Yin Xu and that manifests as

phlegm.

Doug

 

@ <%40>

, " bill_schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> I recall a case around 18 years ago in the school clinic when I was

> a student. A patient with chronic nasal and sinus congestion was

> getting no results. The practitioner who saw her next decided that

> the phlegm was a response to yin deficiency. When he nourished the

> yin, the phlegm went away.

>

> I have no idea if this would apply in your wife's case.

>

> - Bill

>

>

>

> >>>On the first day I attended, Friday, he presented a plethora of

> information, much of which I had never heard nor seen before. (I

> also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague, Chris

> Macie). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon:

> Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin

> deficiency, the body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This

> can be seen in fluid resulting from inflammation. But it also makes

> perfect sense, that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm

> that accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very pathogenic

> fluid resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though it would be

> completely inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs

> transforming phlegm as we have in the past, and instead, the focus

> > should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the

> Qi, to prevent stagnation and accummulation.

> >

> > Your thoughts?

> >

> >

> > Sincerely,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree with this, of course. My objection is the way that Yuen describes this

production-

" in the presence of heat or severe Yin deficiency, the body produces as a

reaction,

pathogenic fluid " . I don't see the body being " intelligent " in this way. Or put

another way, (I

believe I am quoting Al Stone) the body can't correct a pathology with a

pathology. (It

turns out Chana wasn't suffering from this Yin Xu in this way either.)

 

People, of course, in their " intelligence " eat damp foods to counteract Yin xu

but your

description below, and my understanding is different than that. Yin xu causes

phlegm,

phlegm creates more Yin xu and you have the situation of phlegm being " both

thief and

victim " .

 

I'm not sure it is just semantic. Although phlegm is produced either way,

whether by

benevolence or design or pathology, to describe the production as a " response "

circumvents a pathomechanism.

 

The formula that Yuen wrote actually looks like a Tiande Yang formula, who often

sees

" food damage " causing phlegm and uses Lian Qiao (perhaps not such a big dose),

shen qu

and Da huang. He would probably add Bai zhu and tonify the spleen a little.

Doug

 

, " "

wrote:

>

> Doug,

>

>

>

> But if there is heat from yin xu (which is quite common) than this can cause

> phlegm (fire decocts fluids).

>

>

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of

> Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:31 AM

>

> Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife

>

>

>

> I'm not convinced that the body produces phlegm in response. I see

> that fluids get disordered because of a Yin Xu and that manifests as

> phlegm.

> Doug

>

 

> >

> >

> > >>>On the first day I attended, Friday, he presented a plethora of

> > information, much of which I had never heard nor seen before. (I

> > also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague, Chris

> > Macie). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon:

> > Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin

> > deficiency, the body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This

> > can be seen in fluid resulting from inflammation. But it also makes

> > perfect sense, that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm

> > that accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very pathogenic

> > fluid resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though it would be

> > completely inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs

> > transforming phlegm as we have in the past, and instead, the focus

> > > should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the

> > Qi, to prevent stagnation and accummulation.

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Doug,

 

Try to look at the pathogenic fluid as you would inflammatory swelling in the

presence of irritation. For is not swelling one of the 4 cardinal signs of

inflammation? BTW, how would you explain the presence of Chana's tremendous

build up of clear thick sticky " phlegm " (for lack of a better word!) around the

time of seizures, specifically? Before the seizures began 17 years ago, she

never had anything like it, and during and immediately after, it is drools out

of her mouth and is clearly pathogenic. This is not Jeffrey's novelty, and is

spoken about throughout the classics. I will get you sources if you would like

me to, unless someone in the group can refer to the specific passage(s). BTW,

concerning Dr. Zhang, (or Dr Qiu before him) to tell you the truth, after

working with them for 5 years, I really never saw any lasting, enduring

improvement. But, since I came back from London, the changes I mentioned in a

previous post have been impressive, and I have been

writing the formulas myself, which change every 5 days. (I decoct 5 cups of

brew from 8). Again, I write 2 formulas, an AM formula to primarily supplement

Qi, and a PM formula to primarily nourish Yin and calm Shen.

 

Respectfully,

 

Yehuda

 

wrote:

I agree with this, of course. My objection is the way that Yuen

describes this production-

" in the presence of heat or severe Yin deficiency, the body produces as a

reaction,

pathogenic fluid " . I don't see the body being " intelligent " in this way. Or put

another way, (I

believe I am quoting Al Stone) the body can't correct a pathology with a

pathology. (It

turns out Chana wasn't suffering from this Yin Xu in this way either.)

 

People, of course, in their " intelligence " eat damp foods to counteract Yin xu

but your

description below, and my understanding is different than that. Yin xu causes

phlegm,

phlegm creates more Yin xu and you have the situation of phlegm being " both

thief and

victim " .

 

I'm not sure it is just semantic. Although phlegm is produced either way,

whether by

benevolence or design or pathology, to describe the production as a " response "

circumvents a pathomechanism.

 

The formula that Yuen wrote actually looks like a Tiande Yang formula, who often

sees

" food damage " causing phlegm and uses Lian Qiao (perhaps not such a big dose),

shen qu

and Da huang. He would probably add Bai zhu and tonify the spleen a little.

Doug

 

, " " wrote:

>

> Doug,

>

>

>

> But if there is heat from yin xu (which is quite common) than this can cause

> phlegm (fire decocts fluids).

>

>

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of

> Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:31 AM

>

> Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife

>

>

>

> I'm not convinced that the body produces phlegm in response. I see

> that fluids get disordered because of a Yin Xu and that manifests as

> phlegm.

> Doug

>

 

> >

> >

> > >>>On the first day I attended, Friday, he presented a plethora of

> > information, much of which I had never heard nor seen before. (I

> > also had the pleasure of meeting our esteemed colleague, Chris

> > Macie). Among the details was one that hit me like a lead balloon:

> > Jeffrey mentioned that in the presence of heat or severe Yin

> > deficiency, the body produces as a reaction, pathogenic fluid. This

> > can be seen in fluid resulting from inflammation. But it also makes

> > perfect sense, that the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm

> > that accompanies Chana's seizures is probably this very pathogenic

> > fluid resulting from severe Yin depletion. Though it would be

> > completely inappropriate, it would seem to me, to use herbs

> > transforming phlegm as we have in the past, and instead, the focus

> > > should be on engendering Yin while at the same time moving the

> > Qi, to prevent stagnation and accummulation.

> > >

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Sounds like a re-wording of the same thing.

 

, " "

wrote:

>

> I'm not convinced that the body produces phlegm in response. I see

> that fluids get disordered because of a Yin Xu and that manifests as

> phlegm.

> Doug

>

[Guest guest]

Discussing this is a little odd as Yuen decided that it wasn't Yin Xu

in Chana's case. Yehuda, I really hope that his formula works for

Chana. Having treated a number of cases like Sjorgeon's and

sarcoidosis where there is an abundance of phlegm but also deficiency,

I know the frustration. Especially with what seems to work TCM wise,

don't, as much as we would like. As I remember the formula had a

dynamic of going through the MJ that may be very helpful.

 

" bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote:

> Sounds like a re-wording of the same thing.

 

I almost want to say yes, it's a semantic issue, but ultimately I

would say no. (I also wonder how what Yuen says gets filtered to his

students.) Yuen has a lot of these paradoxes. I'll try to remember a

few, I hope they are accurate from my memory. " Yang holds Cold around

Cancer so that it won't spread. " " A pale tongue is actually a sign of

heat " . And now with this one, " The body produces Phlegm to protect

itself against extreme Yin Xu. "

 

I have no problem if some of these ideas are " true " in a phsiological

sense. What I don't like, again, is the idea of the " intelligent " body

making decisions for the good of the body. If there are (pathological)

changes then they should be named as such and not given agency. So

what happens if a body doesn't " decide " to create phlegm? Is the body

less intelligent, is it working less than optimumally?

 

All I have been objecting to is the phrase: " he body produces phlegm

" In Response to Yin xu " . If one says phlegm is produced " because of "

Yin Xu I would be perfectly OK with that. That is a pathomechanism. So

I'm also OK when Yehuda states: " But it also makes perfect sense, that

the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm that accompanies Chana's

seizures is probably this very pathogenic fluid resulting from severe

Yin depletion. " I don't think I'm being overly picky (eyes roll) to

say this is different from " pathogenic fluids is a response (the

subtext is " a protection " ) from severe Yin depletion " .

 

Again, if you give the body free agency to decide then all things can

be true. This perhaps is my issue with Yuen and the many students I

have met over the years.

 

Doug

 

, " bill_schoenbart "

<plantmed2 wrote:

>

> Sounds like a re-wording of the same thing.

>

> , " "

> <taiqi@> wrote:

> >

> > I'm not convinced that the body produces phlegm in response. I see

> > that fluids get disordered because of a Yin Xu and that manifests as

> > phlegm.

> > Doug

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'd like to add that I still think that formulas such as da ding feng

zhu should be the root of treatment in Chana's case, and not just

because I suggested it I understand that in such difficult,

frustrating scenarios that there is a tendency to switch from

modality to modality, approach to approach, formula to formula, but I

don't think this is a healthy thing to do. Jeffrey is a multi-

perspective teacher, and he was giving a seminar on Liu Wan-su's cool-

cold school, and trying to illustrate cases in this approach. Would

he have prescribed Chana differently if he was giving a Li Dong-yuan

spleen-stomach seminar, I wonder?

 

 

On Jun 27, 2007, at 11:32 AM, wrote:

 

> Discussing this is a little odd as Yuen decided that it wasn't Yin Xu

> in Chana's case. Yehuda, I really hope that his formula works for

> Chana. Having treated a number of cases like Sjorgeon's and

> sarcoidosis where there is an abundance of phlegm but also deficiency,

> I know the frustration. Especially with what seems to work TCM wise,

> don't, as much as we would like. As I remember the formula had a

> dynamic of going through the MJ that may be very helpful.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Doug, I have studied with Jeffrey for 5 years and I am

not sure you are correct in some of the statements you

are making- 'the body produces phlegm to protect

itself from yin xu'- I believe he means the body holds

onto phlegm as a second class substitute for yin; the

body's intelligence is misguided- Jeffrey offers the

example to illustrate this of menopausal fibroids,

where one would expect the fibroids to shrink but

instead post menopause they increase in size as the

body attempts to retain yin in any form; in jeffrey's

view yin can be used to hold things latent. How the

body decides to deal with a given pathology has more

to do with constitutional factors- the shu points are

not irrigated equally by the rising of jing, so each

person presents with different tendencies- which

becomes the basis of body types etc. I think the ideas

jeffrey presents may seem contradictory because they

are taken from different periods of chinese medicine

and he will diagnose and treat based only on the

tradition he is teaching that week- he may offer

yehuda a completely different formula if he were

treating this issue from a wai ke perspective- which

also deals with neurological issues. Modern TCM tends

to jumble up the traditions and present ideas that are

contradictory when viewed from within the tradition-

eg the school of cooling and cold, vs the ming men pai

or the wai ke school; an example of this is the

listing of point functions in say deadman's book- he

lists all the functions from all the traditions, earth

school, wen bing etc- but it may be that those

functions only work well within the scope of the

tradition and in combination with other points from

the tradition for example in wen bing there is an

emphasis on bloodletting. Hope this helps the

discussion.

 

sincerely,

 

David Appleton

--- wrote:

 

> Discussing this is a little odd as Yuen decided that

> it wasn't Yin Xu

> in Chana's case. Yehuda, I really hope that his

> formula works for

> Chana. Having treated a number of cases like

> Sjorgeon's and

> sarcoidosis where there is an abundance of phlegm

> but also deficiency,

> I know the frustration. Especially with what seems

> to work TCM wise,

> don't, as much as we would like. As I remember the

> formula had a

> dynamic of going through the MJ that may be very

> helpful.

>

> " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote:

> > Sounds like a re-wording of the same thing.

>

> I almost want to say yes, it's a semantic issue, but

> ultimately I

> would say no. (I also wonder how what Yuen says gets

> filtered to his

> students.) Yuen has a lot of these paradoxes. I'll

> try to remember a

> few, I hope they are accurate from my memory. " Yang

> holds Cold around

> Cancer so that it won't spread. " " A pale tongue is

> actually a sign of

> heat " . And now with this one, " The body produces

> Phlegm to protect

> itself against extreme Yin Xu. "

>

> I have no problem if some of these ideas are " true "

> in a phsiological

> sense. What I don't like, again, is the idea of the

> " intelligent " body

> making decisions for the good of the body. If there

> are (pathological)

> changes then they should be named as such and not

> given agency. So

> what happens if a body doesn't " decide " to create

> phlegm? Is the body

> less intelligent, is it working less than

> optimumally?

>

> All I have been objecting to is the phrase: " he body

> produces phlegm

> " In Response to Yin xu " . If one says phlegm is

> produced " because of "

> Yin Xu I would be perfectly OK with that. That is a

> pathomechanism. So

> I'm also OK when Yehuda states: " But it also makes

> perfect sense, that

> the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm that

> accompanies Chana's

> seizures is probably this very pathogenic fluid

> resulting from severe

> Yin depletion. " I don't think I'm being overly picky

> (eyes roll) to

> say this is different from " pathogenic fluids is a

> response (the

> subtext is " a protection " ) from severe Yin

> depletion " .

>

> Again, if you give the body free agency to decide

> then all things can

> be true. This perhaps is my issue with Yuen and the

> many students I

> have met over the years.

>

> Doug

>

> ,

> " bill_schoenbart "

> <plantmed2 wrote:

> >

> > Sounds like a re-wording of the same thing.

> >

> > ,

> " "

> > <taiqi@> wrote:

> > >

> > > I'm not convinced that the body produces phlegm

> in response. I see

> > > that fluids get disordered because of a Yin Xu

> and that manifests as

> > > phlegm.

> > > Doug

> > >

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

This was the entire point of my last posting. Chana's prescription

was a reflection of what Jeffrey was teaching in this specific

seminar. I wonder if such a switch from a more kidney nourishing

prescription isn't a bit too radical, however.

 

 

On Jun 27, 2007, at 12:26 PM, david appleton wrote:

 

> I think the ideas

> jeffrey presents may seem contradictory because they

> are taken from different periods of chinese medicine

> and he will diagnose and treat based only on the

> tradition he is teaching that week- he may offer

> yehuda a completely different formula if he were

> treating this issue from a wai ke perspective- which

> also deals with neurological issues.

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

David, thanks for the response. Let me think about it but at first glance you

are describing

what I have problems with. I can accept that fibroids grow after menopause but I

am

looking for a mechanism to explain that. Not an intelligence or even a misguided

one to

explain it. When I say contradictory, (I think I said paradoxes) I mean he often

says the

body does something opposite to what might be expected as a coping mechanism.

Again, as I would like to believe, not as a pathology growing out of a

progression of

conditions. This is what I mean when I say the body does not have free agency or

intelligence.

Is this making sense?

Doug

 

 

, david appleton <acuapple wrote:

>

> Doug, I have studied with Jeffrey for 5 years and I am

> not sure you are correct in some of the statements you

> are making- 'the body produces phlegm to protect

> itself from yin xu'- I believe he means the body holds

> onto phlegm as a second class substitute for yin; the

> body's intelligence is misguided- Jeffrey offers the

> example to illustrate this of menopausal fibroids,

> where one would expect the fibroids to shrink but

> instead post menopause they increase in size as the

> body attempts to retain yin in any form; in jeffrey's

> view yin can be used to hold things latent. How the

> body decides to deal with a given pathology has more

> to do with constitutional factors- the shu points are

> not irrigated equally by the rising of jing, so each

> person presents with different tendencies- which

> becomes the basis of body types etc. I think the ideas

> jeffrey presents may seem contradictory because they

> are taken from different periods of chinese medicine

> and he will diagnose and treat based only on the

> tradition he is teaching that week- he may offer

> yehuda a completely different formula if he were

> treating this issue from a wai ke perspective- which

> also deals with neurological issues. Modern TCM tends

> to jumble up the traditions and present ideas that are

> contradictory when viewed from within the tradition-

> eg the school of cooling and cold, vs the ming men pai

> or the wai ke school; an example of this is the

> listing of point functions in say deadman's book- he

> lists all the functions from all the traditions, earth

> school, wen bing etc- but it may be that those

> functions only work well within the scope of the

> tradition and in combination with other points from

> the tradition for example in wen bing there is an

> emphasis on bloodletting. Hope this helps the

> discussion.

>

> sincerely,

>

> David Appleton

> --- wrote:

>

[Guest guest]

Doug- i think i understand- another example might be

heat- which in jeffrey's thinking can invite dampness

or fluids as a response to the pathogenic heat- is

that response pathological? Is it an attempt to

balance an excess? Are you questioning whether innate

'body intelligence' exists? In the menopause fibroid

case if you nourish yin, the body can disregard the

useless yin (pathogenic accumulation) and release the

fibroid, because of the added usable yin- jeffrey

differentiates useful and useless yin- the same idea

might apply to prostatic hypertrophy where turtle

shell can be used to nourish and move the yin stasis-

as far as jeffrey's paradoxical thinking I think that

naturally arises from his Daoist background- do you

disagree with the strategies he proposes? If so what

aspect do you find problematic?

 

David

--- wrote:

 

> David, thanks for the response. Let me think about

> it but at first glance you are describing

> what I have problems with. I can accept that

> fibroids grow after menopause but I am

> looking for a mechanism to explain that. Not an

> intelligence or even a misguided one to

> explain it. When I say contradictory, (I think I

> said paradoxes) I mean he often says the

> body does something opposite to what might be

> expected as a coping mechanism.

> Again, as I would like to believe, not as a

> pathology growing out of a progression of

> conditions. This is what I mean when I say the body

> does not have free agency or

> intelligence.

> Is this making sense?

> Doug

>

>

> , david

> appleton <acuapple wrote:

> >

> > Doug, I have studied with Jeffrey for 5 years and

> I am

> > not sure you are correct in some of the statements

> you

> > are making- 'the body produces phlegm to protect

> > itself from yin xu'- I believe he means the body

> holds

> > onto phlegm as a second class substitute for yin;

> the

> > body's intelligence is misguided- Jeffrey offers

> the

> > example to illustrate this of menopausal fibroids,

> > where one would expect the fibroids to shrink but

> > instead post menopause they increase in size as

> the

> > body attempts to retain yin in any form; in

> jeffrey's

> > view yin can be used to hold things latent. How

> the

> > body decides to deal with a given pathology has

> more

> > to do with constitutional factors- the shu points

> are

> > not irrigated equally by the rising of jing, so

> each

> > person presents with different tendencies- which

> > becomes the basis of body types etc. I think the

> ideas

> > jeffrey presents may seem contradictory because

> they

> > are taken from different periods of chinese

> medicine

> > and he will diagnose and treat based only on the

> > tradition he is teaching that week- he may offer

> > yehuda a completely different formula if he were

> > treating this issue from a wai ke perspective-

> which

> > also deals with neurological issues. Modern TCM

> tends

> > to jumble up the traditions and present ideas that

> are

> > contradictory when viewed from within the

> tradition-

> > eg the school of cooling and cold, vs the ming men

> pai

> > or the wai ke school; an example of this is the

> > listing of point functions in say deadman's book-

> he

> > lists all the functions from all the traditions,

> earth

> > school, wen bing etc- but it may be that those

> > functions only work well within the scope of the

> > tradition and in combination with other points

> from

> > the tradition for example in wen bing there is an

> > emphasis on bloodletting. Hope this helps the

> > discussion.

> >

> > sincerely,

> >

> > David Appleton

> > --- wrote:

> >

>

>

>

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Z'ev, I think he would; he has also said in the past

that any illness can be treated within any tradition-

if you fully understand the nuances of the tradition-

so a gyn specialist could treat skeletal problems, and

vice versa for other specialties or schools; if the

treatment fails you may have misdiagnosed or you may

not have understood the tradition.

 

David

--- <zrosenbe wrote:

 

> Would

> he have prescribed Chana differently if he was

> giving a Li Dong-yuan

> spleen-stomach seminar, I wonder?

>

>

> On Jun 27, 2007, at 11:32 AM,

> wrote:

>

> > Discussing this is a little odd as Yuen decided

> that it wasn't Yin Xu

> > in Chana's case. Yehuda, I really hope that his

> formula works for

> > Chana. Having treated a number of cases like

> Sjorgeon's and

> > sarcoidosis where there is an abundance of phlegm

> but also deficiency,

> > I know the frustration. Especially with what seems

> to work TCM wise,

> > don't, as much as we would like. As I remember the

> formula had a

> > dynamic of going through the MJ that may be very

> helpful.

>

>

> Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> San Diego, Ca. 92122

[Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Granted, that may be correct. I am just concerned about such an

abrupt change in therapeutics for Chana.

 

 

On Jun 27, 2007, at 3:13 PM, david appleton wrote:

 

> Z'ev, I think he would; he has also said in the past

> that any illness can be treated within any tradition-

> if you fully understand the nuances of the tradition-

> so a gyn specialist could treat skeletal problems, and

> vice versa for other specialties or schools; if the

> treatment fails you may have misdiagnosed or you may

> not have understood the tradition.

>

> David

> --- <zrosenbe wrote:

>

> > Would

> > he have prescribed Chana differently if he was

> > giving a Li Dong-yuan

> > spleen-stomach seminar, I wonder?

> >

> >

> > On Jun 27, 2007, at 11:32 AM,

> > wrote:

> >

> > > Discussing this is a little odd as Yuen decided

> > that it wasn't Yin Xu

> > > in Chana's case. Yehuda, I really hope that his

> > formula works for

> > > Chana. Having treated a number of cases like

> > Sjorgeon's and

> > > sarcoidosis where there is an abundance of phlegm

> > but also deficiency,

> > > I know the frustration. Especially with what seems

> > to work TCM wise,

> > > don't, as much as we would like. As I remember the

> > formula had a

> > > dynamic of going through the MJ that may be very

> > helpful.

> >

> >

> > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

> > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

> > San Diego, Ca. 92122

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> >

> >

>

> ________

> Take the Internet to Go: Go puts the Internet in your pocket:

> mail, news, photos & more.

> http://mobile./go?refer=1GNXIC

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I think David brings up some good points. I think this jumbled up TCM

collage can many times do more harm than good. This also applies to herbs.

One doctor may use an herb in a certain way, which is very dependent on

context, meaning diagnosis style as well as the medicinals that it is

combined with. It really helps many times to understand the original

doctor's thought process and tradition, instead of the taking the formula.

For example, one can try to make sense of the herbs's functions (in the

formula) based on a modern MM- cohesive view. Many times the intricacies of

the original doctor are completely lost. I have found that this is a

pitfall of modern TCM.

 

 

 

Do other's have some thoughts on this?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of david appleton

Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:27 PM

 

Re: Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife

 

 

 

Doug, I have studied with Jeffrey for 5 years and I am

not sure you are correct in some of the statements you

are making- 'the body produces phlegm to protect

itself from yin xu'- I believe he means the body holds

onto phlegm as a second class substitute for yin; the

body's intelligence is misguided- Jeffrey offers the

example to illustrate this of menopausal fibroids,

where one would expect the fibroids to shrink but

instead post menopause they increase in size as the

body attempts to retain yin in any form; in jeffrey's

view yin can be used to hold things latent. How the

body decides to deal with a given pathology has more

to do with constitutional factors- the shu points are

not irrigated equally by the rising of jing, so each

person presents with different tendencies- which

becomes the basis of body types etc. I think the ideas

jeffrey presents may seem contradictory because they

are taken from different periods of chinese medicine

and he will diagnose and treat based only on the

tradition he is teaching that week- he may offer

yehuda a completely different formula if he were

treating this issue from a wai ke perspective- which

also deals with neurological issues. Modern TCM tends

to jumble up the traditions and present ideas that are

contradictory when viewed from within the tradition-

eg the school of cooling and cold, vs the ming men pai

or the wai ke school; an example of this is the

listing of point functions in say deadman's book- he

lists all the functions from all the traditions, earth

school, wen bing etc- but it may be that those

functions only work well within the scope of the

tradition and in combination with other points from

the tradition for example in wen bing there is an

emphasis on bloodletting. Hope this helps the

discussion.

 

sincerely,

 

David Appleton

--- <taiqi (AT) taiqi (DOT) <taiqi%40taiqi.com> com> wrote:

 

> Discussing this is a little odd as Yuen decided that

> it wasn't Yin Xu

> in Chana's case. Yehuda, I really hope that his

> formula works for

> Chana. Having treated a number of cases like

> Sjorgeon's and

> sarcoidosis where there is an abundance of phlegm

> but also deficiency,

> I know the frustration. Especially with what seems

> to work TCM wise,

> don't, as much as we would like. As I remember the

> formula had a

> dynamic of going through the MJ that may be very

> helpful.

>

> " bill_schoenbart " <plantmed2 wrote:

> > Sounds like a re-wording of the same thing.

>

> I almost want to say yes, it's a semantic issue, but

> ultimately I

> would say no. (I also wonder how what Yuen says gets

> filtered to his

> students.) Yuen has a lot of these paradoxes. I'll

> try to remember a

> few, I hope they are accurate from my memory. " Yang

> holds Cold around

> Cancer so that it won't spread. " " A pale tongue is

> actually a sign of

> heat " . And now with this one, " The body produces

> Phlegm to protect

> itself against extreme Yin Xu. "

>

> I have no problem if some of these ideas are " true "

> in a phsiological

> sense. What I don't like, again, is the idea of the

> " intelligent " body

> making decisions for the good of the body. If there

> are (pathological)

> changes then they should be named as such and not

> given agency. So

> what happens if a body doesn't " decide " to create

> phlegm? Is the body

> less intelligent, is it working less than

> optimumally?

>

> All I have been objecting to is the phrase: " he body

> produces phlegm

> " In Response to Yin xu " . If one says phlegm is

> produced " because of "

> Yin Xu I would be perfectly OK with that. That is a

> pathomechanism. So

> I'm also OK when Yehuda states: " But it also makes

> perfect sense, that

> the tremendous amount of clear sticky phlegm that

> accompanies Chana's

> seizures is probably this very pathogenic fluid

> resulting from severe

> Yin depletion. " I don't think I'm being overly picky

> (eyes roll) to

> say this is different from " pathogenic fluids is a

> response (the

> subtext is " a protection " ) from severe Yin

> depletion " .

>

> Again, if you give the body free agency to decide

> then all things can

> be true. This perhaps is my issue with Yuen and the

> many students I

> have met over the years.

>

> Doug

>

> @ <%40>

,

> " bill_schoenbart "

> <plantmed2 wrote:

> >

> > Sounds like a re-wording of the same thing.

> >

> > @ <%40>

,

> " "

> > <taiqi@> wrote:

> > >

> > > I'm not convinced that the body produces phlegm

> in response. I see

> > > that fluids get disordered because of a Yin Xu

> and that manifests as

> > > phlegm.

> > > Doug

> > >

> >

>

>

>

 

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that gives answers, not web links.

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/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This conversation between Doug and David is very interesting. David (or

Yuen) is suggesting a story to explain what is an observable phenomenon in

the clinic. Doug does not like the story and favors a different story. Doug

favors a solid mechanism (?), and Yuen explains things through the body's

intelligence(?). (I hope I got that correct)

 

 

 

I will riff a little here :-)

 

 

 

I use the word story for a reason. It is the word that I use to explain what

a pathomechanism is to students. It is the story that gets you from point A

(pattern) to Point B (symptoms). If one has spleen xu with dampness and

dizziness, the pathomechanism is the story that explains why and how this

happens. I think we all agree on that (?).

 

 

 

But IMO essentially any pathomechanism (explanation) is pretty much BS. It

is a theatrical construct made up by the Human mind using the TCM framework.

Now don't get me wrong, I DO think that pathomechanisms are helpful and I

think in these terms often, but I try to stay realistic to what they really

are and how they really help us.

 

 

 

One pitfall is that many times such stories are used to create complex webs

of interrelationships (confusion) when a patient that we totally don't

understand are in front of us. We then label these people knotty or complex

cases and attribute them 4 or 5 patterns.

 

 

 

Really we only know a couple of things. 1) what the patient presents with 2)

what gets them better (in retrospect of course). This is the historical

basis for most of our theory / pathomechanisms. Why this or that happens

(the story) is really only a side note. The pattern is also a (very useful)

secondary side note in the process. This again is a human construction. I

believe this is what Huang Huang (in the Latest Lantern) is getting at. The

SHL has no real complex theory, no patterns (zang-fu), no pathomechanisms,

just s/s, etiologies, and formulas (to a certain extent), Later generations

attribute all the extra stuff. Huang Huang seems to get back to this type of

thinking and really focuses on the clinical pictures. What do you see (what

pattern) and how do you treat it. I find this idea interesting.

 

 

 

So what is my point?

 

 

 

I think either story (Yuen or Doug's) is 100% valid and 100% BS. But why

does one have to be correct and the other not? IF both can treat the problem

through i.e. nourishing yin the story is pretty much just icing on the cake.

 

 

 

Further example:

 

YinFire - As we discussed a few months back there are multiple explanations

on how this process happens. Some say qi sinks, some say dampness sinks,

some say nothing sinks and it is really about constraint, yet another says

" the yang is too weak to externalize, but rather

 

remains within the yin where it heats up " . I think there are more. But the

reality is that they all use the same treatment. Therefore the story is just

that. How does understanding and investing one's belief in any of these

stories help us clinically?

 

 

 

To sum up - I think theory is useful, I for some reason enjoy it, but

sometimes I think that the theory in medicine is similar to what happened

with Jazz. Early Jazz musicians played what they heard. They rarely knew the

theory. Later musicians starting documenting all the complexities and

developed theory to explain what was happening in the live moment. Anyone

that has studied Jazz (modern day) knows that the theory books are

outrageously large and cumbersome. I, as well as many others, believe that

this is one reason that many modern jazz musicians are not that great. They

can play all the scales, they can play all the songs, they can solo over any

change, but can they feel the music and play from the heart? Sometimes they

get so wrapped up in the details they forget about what is right in front of

them. Can we say the same about medicine? Has modern TCM turned everything

into a paint by numbers, or play this scale over this chord type of

approach. Are we losing how to really see what is going on right in front of

us, the patient????

 

 

 

Just curious what people think about this?

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

 

 

On Behalf Of david appleton

Wednesday, June 27, 2007 3:58 PM

 

Re: Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife

 

 

 

Doug- i think i understand- another example might be

heat- which in jeffrey's thinking can invite dampness

or fluids as a response to the pathogenic heat- is

that response pathological? Is it an attempt to

balance an excess? Are you questioning whether innate

'body intelligence' exists? In the menopause fibroid

case if you nourish yin, the body can disregard the

useless yin (pathogenic accumulation) and release the

fibroid, because of the added usable yin- jeffrey

differentiates useful and useless yin- the same idea

might apply to prostatic hypertrophy where turtle

shell can be used to nourish and move the yin stasis-

as far as jeffrey's paradoxical thinking I think that

naturally arises from his Daoist background- do you

disagree with the strategies he proposes? If so what

aspect do you find problematic?

 

David

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Perhaps, but the picking of the best of traditions has also been a

strength of TCM. Often a one tradition may work for some diseases, or

localities while being ineffective in other situations. I think

acupuncture has always been problematic. At the same time I don't

think we are precluded from learning the source of the formula or

acupuncture design. Using the modern bioscience model is something I

don't really want to persue except in very particular cases.

Doug

 

, " "

wrote:

>

> I think David brings up some good points. I think this jumbled up TCM

> collage can many times do more harm than good. This also applies to

herbs.

> One doctor may use an herb in a certain way, which is very dependent on

> context, meaning diagnosis style as well as the medicinals that it is

> combined with. It really helps many times to understand the original

> doctor's thought process and tradition, instead of the taking the

formula.

> For example, one can try to make sense of the herbs's functions (in the

> formula) based on a modern MM- cohesive view. Many times the

intricacies of

> the original doctor are completely lost. I have found that this is a

> pitfall of modern TCM.

>

>

>

> Do other's have some thoughts on this?

>

>

>

> -Jason

>

_____

>

>

> On Behalf Of david appleton

> Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:27 PM

>

> Re: Re: seizures and parkinsonism: an update on my wife

>

>

>

> Doug, I have studied with Jeffrey for 5 years and I am

> not sure you are correct in some of the statements you

> are making- 'the body produces phlegm to protect

> itself from yin xu'- I believe he means the body holds

> onto phlegm as a second class substitute for yin; the

> body's intelligence is misguided- Jeffrey offers the

> example to illustrate this of menopausal fibroids,

> where one would expect the fibroids to shrink but

> instead post menopause they increase in size as the

> body attempts to retain yin in any form; in jeffrey's

> view yin can be used to hold things latent. How the

> body decides to deal with a given pathology has more

> to do with constitutional factors- the shu points are

> not irrigated equally by the rising of jing, so each

> person presents with different tendencies- which

> becomes the basis of body types etc. I think the ideas

> jeffrey presents may seem contradictory because they

> are taken from different periods of chinese medicine

> and he will diagnose and treat based only on the

> tradition he is teaching that week- he may offer

> yehuda a completely different formula if he were

> treating this issue from a wai ke perspective- which

> also deals with neurological issues. Modern TCM tends

> to jumble up the traditions and present ideas that are

> contradictory when viewed from within the tradition-

> eg the school of cooling and cold, vs the ming men pai

> or the wai ke school; an example of this is the

> listing of point functions in say deadman's book- he

> lists all the functions from all the traditions, earth

> school, wen bing etc- but it may be that those

> functions only work well within the scope of the

> tradition and in combination with other points from

> the tradition for example in wen bing there is an

> emphasis on bloodletting. Hope this helps the

> discussion.

>

> sincerely,

>

> David Appleton