Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike and all - rejoining the fray here...

Like you said Mike, a lot of people enjoy a particular

brand of " science " , one that involves printouts with

numbers, graphs + a good layout. Hopefully this email

classifies as good science since I typed it on a

computer. In fact I demand that perspective.

In any case I don't really believe that Dr. Wu's

preference should make any of us run to the

machine-slaver, I mean, saviour, until we have - as he

does - 50 years of traditional pulse taking under our

belts. It may be that machines such as this are a good

prescription for causing a decline of personally

skilled practitioners.

But perhaps I worry too much - the chinese martial

arts aren't dead so much as flaky since the

introduction of firearms to chinese military culture.

It does however sadden me to see so many of us

enamored to machines and leaving our own personal

potential by the wayside. Not that I wouldn't want a

robotic master race, necessarily...

 

Hugo

 

 

 

 

_________

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for

your free account today

http://uk.rd./evt=44106/*http://uk.docs./mail/winter07.html

[Guest guest]

Why would you have any trouble with a " machine " if it works? Personally i have

not seen one that i would conceder reliable although i have not tested all of

them. The only thing that matters is clinical outcome all else is masturbation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

Hugo Ramiro

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:46 AM

Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

 

 

Hi Mike and all - rejoining the fray here...

Like you said Mike, a lot of people enjoy a particular

brand of " science " , one that involves printouts with

numbers, graphs + a good layout. Hopefully this email

classifies as good science since I typed it on a

computer. In fact I demand that perspective.

In any case I don't really believe that Dr. Wu's

preference should make any of us run to the

machine-slaver, I mean, saviour, until we have - as he

does - 50 years of traditional pulse taking under our

belts. It may be that machines such as this are a good

prescription for causing a decline of personally

skilled practitioners.

But perhaps I worry too much - the chinese martial

arts aren't dead so much as flaky since the

introduction of firearms to chinese military culture.

It does however sadden me to see so many of us

enamored to machines and leaving our own personal

potential by the wayside. Not that I wouldn't want a

robotic master race, necessarily...

 

Hugo

 

________

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for

your free account today

http://uk.rd./evt=44106/*http://uk.docs./mail/winter07.html

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Alon.

To answer your question: " if it works, then...? "

I could use the Chinese Martial Arts situation. If you want to be a good

fighter, all you have to do is use steroids, bulk up like a monster and scream

and rage during a match. You'll win most if not all of your matches. Should only

take 9-12 months of training and an angry psychology to achieve that.

If you want to fight the above fighter with Tai Chi, good luck unless you've

had 10 to 30 years of intensive, complete training, and even then, best to not

get into the fight and simply evade a situation that is so magnificently stupid.

The situation with machines is similar. A machine (say, a gun) works very well,

cuts down people effortlessly and takes a week or less to learn to use lethally.

It can even be better than Mr. Roid from our first paragraph.

Unfortunately, anything's _apparent_ effectiveness has little to do with final

outcomes. Mr. Roid gets a damaged liver and injured spirit, and the Tai Chi

trainee gets a foot in the door to enlightenment. Yet one is obviously (?) the

better fighter. Certainly we can say that one is far more likely to achieve

peace within themselves - which is, according to many sources, the mark of a

true (yes I'll use that word) " warrior " . Rawr.

 

Final outcomes have _a_lot_ to do with how we define the meanings of our lives.

Interestingly, western medicine is engaged in this dialogue more and more these

days - what is the difference between curing and healing? As we all might know,

it is possible to heal, and yet not achieve an apparent or total cure. And many

people get cured and demonstrate little or no apparent healing.

How we define these situations can teach us a lot about the role of machines,

and even the role of " effectiveness " .

In the end, if I feel an effective machine will, in the long run, weaken

's expression through cultured, refined, developed people (i.e.

promote cure, but inhibit healing), then I will tend to be very cautious with

the way that that machine is used. Again, it has little to do with the machine,

and mainly to do with that aspect of human psychology that chooses the lazy,

dis-couraged way out.

And I'd like to finish by saying that were I pushed to take an easy way out, I

am afraid that I might.

 

Hugo

 

Effectiveness can be defined in many ways, three of which are short-,

intermediary-, and final-outcomes. Industry as a whole has a great

short-outcome: we make a lot of things, more people have more things like tools,

the economy gets a boost, the world becomes more connected and so on. The

final-outcome is not so well dispositioned. I believe we are all aware of the

tremendous damage to our ecosystem (not that the earth won't survive it, but

rather that OUR ecosystem won't (OUR including US, of course), a topic that we

need not trawl, and I believe we are also very aware these days that industry by

iotself is entirely neutral, and that it provides the means for

 

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, 31 May, 2007 2:37:29 PM

Re: Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

 

Why would you have any trouble with a " machine " if it works? Personally i have

not seen one that i would conceder reliable although i have not tested all of

them. The only thing that matters is clinical outcome all else is masturbation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.integrativeheal thmedicine. com

-

Hugo Ramiro

 

Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:46 AM

Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

 

Hi Mike and all - rejoining the fray here...

Like you said Mike, a lot of people enjoy a particular

brand of " science " , one that involves printouts with

numbers, graphs + a good layout. Hopefully this email

classifies as good science since I typed it on a

computer. In fact I demand that perspective.

In any case I don't really believe that Dr. Wu's

preference should make any of us run to the

machine-slaver, I mean, saviour, until we have - as he

does - 50 years of traditional pulse taking under our

belts. It may be that machines such as this are a good

prescription for causing a decline of personally

skilled practitioners.

But perhaps I worry too much - the chinese martial

arts aren't dead so much as flaky since the

introduction of firearms to chinese military culture.

It does however sadden me to see so many of us

enamored to machines and leaving our own personal

potential by the wayside. Not that I wouldn't want a

robotic master race, necessarily. ..

 

Hugo

 

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for

your free account today http://uk.rd. / evt=44106/ *http://uk.

docs.. com/mail/ winter07. html

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hugo

I am in a different place, my only alliance is to the patient, i do not care

about culture or any other aspect of CM unless it improves the clinical result.

Clinical result include safety as far as i am concern, something we mostly only

have dogmatic information on. I do not think you can compare harming ones body

with steroids to using a " machine, " if it truly works which i have lots of

doubts about. Again while i have to use CM historical evidence at this point i

by no means think these are completely trustful. There are much we know now that

was not known in the past

Alon

 

Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote:

Hi Alon.

To answer your question: " if it works, then...? "

I could use the Chinese Martial Arts situation. If you want to be a good

fighter, all you have to do is use steroids, bulk up like a monster and scream

and rage during a match. You'll win most if not all of your matches. Should only

take 9-12 months of training and an angry psychology to achieve that.

If you want to fight the above fighter with Tai Chi, good luck unless you've had

10 to 30 years of intensive, complete training, and even then, best to not get

into the fight and simply evade a situation that is so magnificently stupid.

The situation with machines is similar. A machine (say, a gun) works very well,

cuts down people effortlessly and takes a week or less to learn to use lethally.

It can even be better than Mr. Roid from our first paragraph.

Unfortunately, anything's _apparent_ effectiveness has little to do with final

outcomes. Mr. Roid gets a damaged liver and injured spirit, and the Tai Chi

trainee gets a foot in the door to enlightenment. Yet one is obviously (?) the

better fighter. Certainly we can say that one is far more likely to achieve

peace within themselves - which is, according to many sources, the mark of a

true (yes I'll use that word) " warrior " . Rawr.

 

Final outcomes have _a_lot_ to do with how we define the meanings of our lives.

Interestingly, western medicine is engaged in this dialogue more and more these

days - what is the difference between curing and healing? As we all might know,

it is possible to heal, and yet not achieve an apparent or total cure. And many

people get cured and demonstrate little or no apparent healing.

How we define these situations can teach us a lot about the role of machines,

and even the role of " effectiveness " .

In the end, if I feel an effective machine will, in the long run, weaken Chinese

Medicine's expression through cultured, refined, developed people (i.e. promote

cure, but inhibit healing), then I will tend to be very cautious with the way

that that machine is used. Again, it has little to do with the machine, and

mainly to do with that aspect of human psychology that chooses the lazy,

dis-couraged way out.

And I'd like to finish by saying that were I pushed to take an easy way out, I

am afraid that I might.

 

Hugo

 

Effectiveness can be defined in many ways, three of which are short-,

intermediary-, and final-outcomes. Industry as a whole has a great

short-outcome: we make a lot of things, more people have more things like tools,

the economy gets a boost, the world becomes more connected and so on. The

final-outcome is not so well dispositioned. I believe we are all aware of the

tremendous damage to our ecosystem (not that the earth won't survive it, but

rather that OUR ecosystem won't (OUR including US, of course), a topic that we

need not trawl, and I believe we are also very aware these days that industry by

iotself is entirely neutral, and that it provides the means for

 

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, 31 May, 2007 2:37:29 PM

Re: Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

 

Why would you have any trouble with a " machine " if it works? Personally i have

not seen one that i would conceder reliable although i have not tested all of

them. The only thing that matters is clinical outcome all else is masturbation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.integrativeheal thmedicine. com

-

Hugo Ramiro

 

Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:46 AM

Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

 

Hi Mike and all - rejoining the fray here...

Like you said Mike, a lot of people enjoy a particular

brand of " science " , one that involves printouts with

numbers, graphs + a good layout. Hopefully this email

classifies as good science since I typed it on a

computer. In fact I demand that perspective.

In any case I don't really believe that Dr. Wu's

preference should make any of us run to the

machine-slaver, I mean, saviour, until we have - as he

does - 50 years of traditional pulse taking under our

belts. It may be that machines such as this are a good

prescription for causing a decline of personally

skilled practitioners.

But perhaps I worry too much - the chinese martial

arts aren't dead so much as flaky since the

introduction of firearms to chinese military culture.

It does however sadden me to see so many of us

enamored to machines and leaving our own personal

potential by the wayside. Not that I wouldn't want a

robotic master race, necessarily. ..

 

Hugo

 

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for

your free account today http://uk.rd. / evt=44106/ *http://uk.

docs.. com/mail/ winter07. html

 

 

[Guest guest]

Woops, missed that last bit:

 

....provides the means for either raising or lowering ourselves. For me, the

questions are how and why we make the choices to raise or lower ourselves.

 

 

 

Effectiveness can be defined in many ways, three of which are short-,

intermediary- , and final-outcomes. Industry as a whole has a great

short-outcome: we make a lot of things, more people have more things like tools,

the economy gets a boost, the world becomes more connected and so on. The

final-outcome is not so well dispositioned. I believe we are all aware of the

tremendous damage to our ecosystem (not that the earth won't survive it, but

rather that OUR ecosystem won't (OUR including US, of course), a topic that we

need not trawl, and I believe we are also very aware these days that industry by

iotself is entirely neutral, and that it provides the means for

 

_________ _

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for

your free account today http://uk.rd. / evt=44106/ *http://uk.

docs.. com/mail/ winter07. html

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Alon, yes I have gotten this impression from you in the past (that we are in

different places). However, we are both in the same boat, and both of us

actually perform useful, different functions on the spectrum of medicine.

Question is, are we going to be able to communicate for the benefit of people?

Thanks for your note,

Hugo

 

 

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, 31 May, 2007 5:11:47 PM

Re: Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

 

Hugo

I am in a different place, my only alliance is to the patient, i do not care

about culture or any other aspect of CM unless it improves the clinical result.

Clinical result include safety as far as i am concern, something we mostly only

have dogmatic information on. I do not think you can compare harming ones body

with steroids to using a " machine, " if it truly works which i have lots of

doubts about. Again while i have to use CM historical evidence at this point i

by no means think these are completely trustful. There are much we know now that

was not known in the past

Alon

 

Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote:

Hi Alon.

To answer your question: " if it works, then...? "

I could use the Chinese Martial Arts situation. If you want to be a good

fighter, all you have to do is use steroids, bulk up like a monster and scream

and rage during a match. You'll win most if not all of your matches. Should only

take 9-12 months of training and an angry psychology to achieve that.

If you want to fight the above fighter with Tai Chi, good luck unless you've had

10 to 30 years of intensive, complete training, and even then, best to not get

into the fight and simply evade a situation that is so magnificently stupid.

The situation with machines is similar. A machine (say, a gun) works very well,

cuts down people effortlessly and takes a week or less to learn to use lethally.

It can even be better than Mr. Roid from our first paragraph.

Unfortunately, anything's _apparent_ effectiveness has little to do with final

outcomes. Mr. Roid gets a damaged liver and injured spirit, and the Tai Chi

trainee gets a foot in the door to enlightenment. Yet one is obviously (?) the

better fighter. Certainly we can say that one is far more likely to achieve

peace within themselves - which is, according to many sources, the mark of a

true (yes I'll use that word) " warrior " . Rawr.

 

Final outcomes have _a_lot_ to do with how we define the meanings of our lives.

Interestingly, western medicine is engaged in this dialogue more and more these

days - what is the difference between curing and healing? As we all might know,

it is possible to heal, and yet not achieve an apparent or total cure. And many

people get cured and demonstrate little or no apparent healing.

How we define these situations can teach us a lot about the role of machines,

and even the role of " effectiveness " .

In the end, if I feel an effective machine will, in the long run, weaken Chinese

Medicine's expression through cultured, refined, developed people (i.e. promote

cure, but inhibit healing), then I will tend to be very cautious with the way

that that machine is used. Again, it has little to do with the machine, and

mainly to do with that aspect of human psychology that chooses the lazy,

dis-couraged way out.

And I'd like to finish by saying that were I pushed to take an easy way out, I

am afraid that I might.

 

Hugo

 

Effectiveness can be defined in many ways, three of which are short-,

intermediary- , and final-outcomes. Industry as a whole has a great

short-outcome: we make a lot of things, more people have more things like tools,

the economy gets a boost, the world becomes more connected and so on. The

final-outcome is not so well dispositioned. I believe we are all aware of the

tremendous damage to our ecosystem (not that the earth won't survive it, but

rather that OUR ecosystem won't (OUR including US, of course), a topic that we

need not trawl, and I believe we are also very aware these days that industry by

iotself is entirely neutral, and that it provides the means for

 

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net>

 

Thursday, 31 May, 2007 2:37:29 PM

Re: Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

 

Why would you have any trouble with a " machine " if it works? Personally i have

not seen one that i would conceder reliable although i have not tested all of

them. The only thing that matters is clinical outcome all else is masturbation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

www.integrativeheal thmedicine. com

-

Hugo Ramiro

 

Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:46 AM

Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

 

Hi Mike and all - rejoining the fray here...

Like you said Mike, a lot of people enjoy a particular

brand of " science " , one that involves printouts with

numbers, graphs + a good layout. Hopefully this email

classifies as good science since I typed it on a

computer. In fact I demand that perspective.

In any case I don't really believe that Dr. Wu's

preference should make any of us run to the

machine-slaver, I mean, saviour, until we have - as he

does - 50 years of traditional pulse taking under our

belts. It may be that machines such as this are a good

prescription for causing a decline of personally

skilled practitioners.

But perhaps I worry too much - the chinese martial

arts aren't dead so much as flaky since the

introduction of firearms to chinese military culture.

It does however sadden me to see so many of us

enamored to machines and leaving our own personal

potential by the wayside. Not that I wouldn't want a

robotic master race, necessarily. ..

 

Hugo

 

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for

your free account today http://uk.rd. / evt=44106/ *http://uk.

docs.. com/mail/ winter07. html

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hugo, we are communicating right now

Alon

 

Hugo Ramiro <subincor wrote: Hey

Alon, yes I have gotten this impression from you in the past (that we are in

different places). However, we are both in the same boat, and both of us

actually perform useful, different functions on the spectrum of medicine.

Question is, are we going to be able to communicate for the benefit of people?

Thanks for your note,

Hugo

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, 31 May, 2007 5:11:47 PM

Re: Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

 

Hugo

I am in a different place, my only alliance is to the patient, i do not care

about culture or any other aspect of CM unless it improves the clinical result.

Clinical result include safety as far as i am concern, something we mostly only

have dogmatic information on. I do not think you can compare harming ones body

with steroids to using a " machine, " if it truly works which i have lots of

doubts about. Again while i have to use CM historical evidence at this point i

by no means think these are completely trustful. There are much we know now that

was not known in the past

Alon

 

Hugo Ramiro <subincor > wrote:

Hi Alon.

To answer your question: " if it works, then...? "

I could use the Chinese Martial Arts situation. If you want to be a good

fighter, all you have to do is use steroids, bulk up like a monster and scream

and rage during a match. You'll win most if not all of your matches. Should only

take 9-12 months of training and an angry psychology to achieve that.

If you want to fight the above fighter with Tai Chi, good luck unless you've

had 10 to 30 years of intensive, complete training, and even then, best to not

get into the fight and simply evade a situation that is so magnificently stupid.

The situation with machines is similar. A machine (say, a gun) works very well,

cuts down people effortlessly and takes a week or less to learn to use lethally.

It can even be better than Mr. Roid from our first paragraph.

Unfortunately, anything's _apparent_ effectiveness has little to do with final

outcomes. Mr. Roid gets a damaged liver and injured spirit, and the Tai Chi

trainee gets a foot in the door to enlightenment. Yet one is obviously (?) the

better fighter. Certainly we can say that one is far more likely to achieve

peace within themselves - which is, according to many sources, the mark of a

true (yes I'll use that word) " warrior " . Rawr.

 

Final outcomes have _a_lot_ to do with how we define the meanings of our lives.

Interestingly, western medicine is engaged in this dialogue more and more these

days - what is the difference between curing and healing? As we all might know,

it is possible to heal, and yet not achieve an apparent or total cure. And many

people get cured and demonstrate little or no apparent healing.

How we define these situations can teach us a lot about the role of machines,

and even the role of " effectiveness " .

In the end, if I feel an effective machine will, in the long run, weaken

's expression through cultured, refined, developed people (i.e.

promote cure, but inhibit healing), then I will tend to be very cautious with

the way that that machine is used. Again, it has little to do with the machine,

and mainly to do with that aspect of human psychology that chooses the lazy,

dis-couraged way out.

And I'd like to finish by saying that were I pushed to take an easy way out, I

am afraid that I might.

 

Hugo

 

Effectiveness can be defined in many ways, three of which are short-,

intermediary- , and final-outcomes. Industry as a whole has a great

short-outcome: we make a lot of things, more people have more things like tools,

the economy gets a boost, the world becomes more connected and so on. The

final-outcome is not so well dispositioned. I believe we are all aware of the

tremendous damage to our ecosystem (not that the earth won't survive it, but

rather that OUR ecosystem won't (OUR including US, of course), a topic that we

need not trawl, and I believe we are also very aware these days that industry by

iotself is entirely neutral, and that it provides the means for

 

Alon Marcus <alonmarcus (AT) wans (DOT) net>

Thursday, 31 May, 2007 2:37:29 PM

Re: Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

 

Why would you have any trouble with a " machine " if it works? Personally i have

not seen one that i would conceder reliable although i have not tested all of

them. The only thing that matters is clinical outcome all else is masturbation.

 

 

 

www.integrativeheal thmedicine. com

-

Hugo Ramiro

Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:46 AM

Robot Empire was--acupuncture meridian computer program

 

Hi Mike and all - rejoining the fray here...

Like you said Mike, a lot of people enjoy a particular

brand of " science " , one that involves printouts with

numbers, graphs + a good layout. Hopefully this email

classifies as good science since I typed it on a

computer. In fact I demand that perspective.

In any case I don't really believe that Dr. Wu's

preference should make any of us run to the

machine-slaver, I mean, saviour, until we have - as he

does - 50 years of traditional pulse taking under our

belts. It may be that machines such as this are a good

prescription for causing a decline of personally

skilled practitioners.

But perhaps I worry too much - the chinese martial

arts aren't dead so much as flaky since the

introduction of firearms to chinese military culture.

It does however sadden me to see so many of us

enamored to machines and leaving our own personal

potential by the wayside. Not that I wouldn't want a

robotic master race, necessarily. ..

 

Hugo

 

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for

your free account today http://uk.rd. / evt=44106/ *http://uk.

docs.. com/mail/ winter07. html

 

[Guest guest]

--- Alon Marcus <alonmarcus wrote:

 

> Hugo, we are communicating right now

> Alon

 

Apparently we're not. I wasn't referring to us. As

you say, we are communicating.

 

Hugo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

_________

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for

your free account today

http://uk.rd./evt=44106/*http://uk.docs./mail/winter07.html