Dieh Dah = Dieda [fall/tumble & strike/play]

[Guest guest]

On 12 Apr 2007 at 10:06,

Chinese Medicine - Digest Number 2065

wrote:

 

> Also what is Dieh Dah?

 

Dieh Dah = Die-da [literally: fall/tumble & strike/play].

 

Die-da means trauma/injuries (bruising, haematomas, fractures etc)

incurred in sports/martial arts and accidents.

 

Dieda herbal preparations include rubs/ointments/liniments/embrocations to

Quicken Xue, Disperse Xueyu (Blood Stag) & Ease Pain

 

Acupuncture also can help to resolve such injuries via the same

mechanisms.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This doesn't go far enough to tell what it really does. There is

only so much you can get by googling.

 

The hit, fall, tumble is martial training. It is for repeated

falling onto a mat or grass, hitting sand, beans, gravel or

repeatedly getting hit by bamboo, iron, etc. These traumas are

self inflicted over years to strengthen the skin, sinews and bones.

After practicing " falling " the di dat jow is rubbed onto the area

being trained to strengthen for more traumas next time. It's

cumulative effect over years and is the secret to iron palm

training. The formula also changes depending of the martial style

and stage of training so there is no one formula but hundreds of

variations.

It's not used for unseen accidents from being " hit " or " falling "

down. Even though it may seem it can be used for everyday injuries

that was not its intention and not even the best choice. Which of

the hundreds of formulas are you giving to your patients? Do you

know its real purpose?

 

I still call it di dat jow out of respect to my instructors that had

to leave China when the temples were destroyed by the Communists.

They don't favor the pin yin spelling, as some of you can well

imagine.

 

Kelvin

www.1stdefense.info

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

< wrote:

>

> On 12 Apr 2007 at 10:06,

> Chinese Medicine - Digest Number 2065

> wrote:

>

> > Also what is Dieh Dah?

>

> Dieh Dah = Die-da [literally: fall/tumble & strike/play].

>

> Die-da means trauma/injuries (bruising, haematomas, fractures etc)

> incurred in sports/martial arts and accidents.

>

> Dieda herbal preparations include

rubs/ointments/liniments/embrocations to

> Quicken Xue, Disperse Xueyu (Blood Stag) & Ease Pain

>

> Acupuncture also can help to resolve such injuries via the same

> mechanisms.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

With respect to you and your teachers, the reasons there are so many formulas

floating around are: a) Martial practitioners tended to jealously guard secrets,

and at times would throw in everything but the kitchen sink to make a formula

complicated or difficult to replicate. b) while they were often excellent

bonesetters they tended to not be very academic herbalists, leading to, c)

there is a sort of fetishism around rare animal ingredients (eagle claws, whole

snakes, tiger bones, baboon ass, etc) which to my mind indicates a more rootsy

family style form of CM.

 

My inclination is to say that mainstream CM and martial bonesetting medicine

grew in parallel tracks, but because of the martial habit direct transmission

vs. wide dissemination there really wasn't much chance for those formulas to get

out and mingle with other peoples ideas. It all works pretty well, and I'm

certainly not dissing it, but I think one can step back from a lot of formulas

and do some serious editing and parsing and come up with a basic set of

treatment principles that are not overly complicated. The trauma guy I worked

with would always laugh and say that bonesetting guys in Hong Kong would add

strong black tea or other funky colored liquids to their formulas and fake out

patients, telling them it was a secret ingredient. Allot of people selling hit

medicine in this country do the same thing, they just don't have to use the tea

since nobody can read the box.

 

I do think you are correct in that we should also separate martial training

formulas (especially palm training) from trauma treatments, since, as far as I

can tell, while they overlap in expelling wind and damp and moving blood and qi

to varying degrees, there are distinct differences. Training formulas tend to be

much stronger and contain more in the way of yang supplementation, while trauma

formulas tend to focus on a three stage strategy of acute, subacute and chronic

injury management, reflecting heat, then blood stasis/qi stagnation, then bi

(with kidney and liver vacuity either thrown in here, or as a more advanced

stage of chronic). Another interesting branch of this is that hot/cold palm

training theory. I only have a couple of formulas from this category so far, but

suffice it to say that these get even farther away from the basic trauma model

of moving blood and qi and dispelling stasis. There is a lot of emphasis on

pulling qi into the area (which seems to be done with herbs like li lu or xi

xin, both acrid toxic herbs that give the skin a nice tingly feeling) and then

pushing it deep inside to compact and make the bones and sinews more dense. But

these training formulas were designed to be used by robust men, and most

teachers I've talked to say to stop training an injured area and use

rehabilitation oriented herbs until it is better. I would seriously avoid any

iron palm or training technique that loads the body to a substantial breakdown,

like that guy who punches an iron plate for half an hour per day, unless you

want to end up with a catchers mitt for a hand. That said, I used to get

arthritis in my thumbs when the weather turned cold and since I started palm

training I don't seem to have trouble with it anymore.

 

Orthography aside, I believe dieda is the common term for traumatology for

injury from any cause, the technical term being shangke, or

wound/damage-science. Is it your understanding that it only refers to martial

arts medicines, or bonesetting medicine in general? My older dictionary doesn't

have a listing for the two character word, my newer one does, saying it means

Chinese osteopathy (whatever that is). The two tend to come together in that

martial arts masters were typically competent bone setters and often did it to

supplement their incomes and be good neighbors Confucian style.

 

Par Scott

 

-

acupuncturebeverlyhills

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:45 PM

Re: Dieh Dah = Dieda [fall/tumble & strike/play]

 

 

This doesn't go far enough to tell what it really does. There is

only so much you can get by googling.

 

The hit, fall, tumble is martial training. It is for repeated

falling onto a mat or grass, hitting sand, beans, gravel or

repeatedly getting hit by bamboo, iron, etc. These traumas are

self inflicted over years to strengthen the skin, sinews and bones.

After practicing " falling " the di dat jow is rubbed onto the area

being trained to strengthen for more traumas next time. It's

cumulative effect over years and is the secret to iron palm

training. The formula also changes depending of the martial style

and stage of training so there is no one formula but hundreds of

variations.

It's not used for unseen accidents from being " hit " or " falling "

down. Even though it may seem it can be used for everyday injuries

that was not its intention and not even the best choice. Which of

the hundreds of formulas are you giving to your patients? Do you

know its real purpose?

 

I still call it di dat jow out of respect to my instructors that had

to leave China when the temples were destroyed by the Communists.

They don't favor the pin yin spelling, as some of you can well

imagine.

 

Kelvin

www.1stdefense.info

 

Chinese Medicine , " "

< wrote:

>

> On 12 Apr 2007 at 10:06,

> Chinese Medicine - Digest Number 2065

> wrote:

>

> > Also what is Dieh Dah?

>

> Dieh Dah = Die-da [literally: fall/tumble & strike/play].

>

> Die-da means trauma/injuries (bruising, haematomas, fractures etc)

> incurred in sports/martial arts and accidents.

>

> Dieda herbal preparations include

rubs/ointments/liniments/embrocations to

> Quicken Xue, Disperse Xueyu (Blood Stag) & Ease Pain

>

> Acupuncture also can help to resolve such injuries via the same

> mechanisms.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing.

 

Just an observation though. If you learn how to make the trauma

formulas yourself, you won't be fooled by fakes.

 

Which iron palm are you doing?

 

Kelvin

www.1stdefense.info

 

 

 

Chinese Medicine , " Par Scott "

<parufus wrote:

>

> With respect to you and your teachers, the reasons there are so

many formulas floating around are: a) Martial practitioners tended to

jealously guard secrets, and at times would throw in everything but

the kitchen sink to make a formula complicated or difficult to

replicate. b) while they were often excellent bonesetters they tended

to not be very academic herbalists, leading to, c) there is a sort

of fetishism around rare animal ingredients (eagle claws, whole

snakes, tiger bones, baboon ass, etc) which to my mind indicates a

more rootsy family style form of CM.

>

> My inclination is to say that mainstream CM and martial bonesetting

medicine grew in parallel tracks, but because of the martial habit

direct transmission vs. wide dissemination there really wasn't much

chance for those formulas to get out and mingle with other peoples

ideas. It all works pretty well, and I'm certainly not dissing it,

but I think one can step back from a lot of formulas and do some

serious editing and parsing and come up with a basic set of treatment

principles that are not overly complicated. The trauma guy I worked

with would always laugh and say that bonesetting guys in Hong Kong

would add strong black tea or other funky colored liquids to their

formulas and fake out patients, telling them it was a secret

ingredient. Allot of people selling hit medicine in this country do

the same thing, they just don't have to use the tea since nobody can

read the box.

>

> I do think you are correct in that we should also separate martial

training formulas (especially palm training) from trauma treatments,

since, as far as I can tell, while they overlap in expelling wind and

damp and moving blood and qi to varying degrees, there are distinct

differences. Training formulas tend to be much stronger and contain

more in the way of yang supplementation, while trauma formulas tend

to focus on a three stage strategy of acute, subacute and chronic

injury management, reflecting heat, then blood stasis/qi stagnation,

then bi (with kidney and liver vacuity either thrown in here, or as a

more advanced stage of chronic). Another interesting branch of this

is that hot/cold palm training theory. I only have a couple of

formulas from this category so far, but suffice it to say that these

get even farther away from the basic trauma model of moving blood and

qi and dispelling stasis. There is a lot of emphasis on pulling qi

into the area (which seems to be done with herbs like li lu or xi

xin, both acrid toxic herbs that give the skin a nice tingly feeling)

and then pushing it deep inside to compact and make the bones and

sinews more dense. But these training formulas were designed to be

used by robust men, and most teachers I've talked to say to stop

training an injured area and use rehabilitation oriented herbs until

it is better. I would seriously avoid any iron palm or training

technique that loads the body to a substantial breakdown, like that

guy who punches an iron plate for half an hour per day, unless you

want to end up with a catchers mitt for a hand. That said, I used to

get arthritis in my thumbs when the weather turned cold and since I

started palm training I don't seem to have trouble with it anymore.

>

> Orthography aside, I believe dieda is the common term for

traumatology for injury from any cause, the technical term being

shangke, or wound/damage-science. Is it your understanding that it

only refers to martial arts medicines, or bonesetting medicine in

general? My older dictionary doesn't have a listing for the two

character word, my newer one does, saying it means Chinese osteopathy

(whatever that is). The two tend to come together in that martial

arts masters were typically competent bone setters and often did it

to supplement their incomes and be good neighbors Confucian style.

>

> Par Scott

>

> -

> acupuncturebeverlyhills

> Chinese Medicine

> Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:45 PM

> Re: Dieh Dah = Dieda [fall/tumble & strike/play]

>

>

> This doesn't go far enough to tell what it really does. There is

> only so much you can get by googling.

>

> The hit, fall, tumble is martial training. It is for repeated

> falling onto a mat or grass, hitting sand, beans, gravel or

> repeatedly getting hit by bamboo, iron, etc. These traumas are

> self inflicted over years to strengthen the skin, sinews and

bones.

> After practicing " falling " the di dat jow is rubbed onto the area

> being trained to strengthen for more traumas next time. It's

> cumulative effect over years and is the secret to iron palm

> training. The formula also changes depending of the martial style

> and stage of training so there is no one formula but hundreds of

> variations.

> It's not used for unseen accidents from being " hit " or " falling "

> down. Even though it may seem it can be used for everyday

injuries

> that was not its intention and not even the best choice. Which of

> the hundreds of formulas are you giving to your patients? Do you

> know its real purpose?

>

> I still call it di dat jow out of respect to my instructors that

had

> to leave China when the temples were destroyed by the Communists.

> They don't favor the pin yin spelling, as some of you can well

> imagine.

>

> Kelvin

> www.1stdefense.info

>

> Chinese Medicine , " Phil

Rogers "

> <@> wrote:

> >

> > On 12 Apr 2007 at 10:06,

> > Chinese Medicine@ - Digest Number 2065

> > wrote:

> >

> > > Also what is Dieh Dah?

> >

> > Dieh Dah = Die-da [literally: fall/tumble & strike/play].

> >

> > Die-da means trauma/injuries (bruising, haematomas, fractures

etc)

> > incurred in sports/martial arts and accidents.

> >

> > Dieda herbal preparations include

> rubs/ointments/liniments/embrocations to

> > Quicken Xue, Disperse Xueyu (Blood Stag) & Ease Pain

> >

> > Acupuncture also can help to resolve such injuries via the same

> > mechanisms.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> >

> >

> >