Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 This was discussed not so long ago. It's legal in the US, but illegal in Europe. Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , " Diane Notarianni " <Diane wrote: > > I came across a website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like one of the most > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we use. I was under the > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, Chinese Modular Solutions and > many others were NOT selling to the general public. > Can anyone explain to me if this is legal or what this is about? I don't think I need to mention > how this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners. Diane > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 I don;t know how it happens but I did tell a story of a patient who bought Calm Spirit by Health Concerns online. She said " Oh, I ran out so I bought a big bottle. " I explained that it was prescribed for her, so a health practitioner should be giving instructions on it. I refer people to lots of over the counter natural products but really don't like them taking these formulas on their own. Anyone know of why it's happening. -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Diane Notarianni " <Diane > I came across a website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like one of the > most > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we use. I was > under the > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, Chinese Modular > Solutions and > many others were NOT selling to the general public. > Can anyone explain to me if this is legal or what this is about? I don't think > I need to mention > how this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners. Diane > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 In a message dated 3/6/2007 8:58:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, attiliodalberto writes: I'm sure the US will follow Europe and regulate herbal medicine, its just a question of when. Attilio _www.chinesemedicinewww.chine_ (http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com) What a horrible injustice to the American people that would be. <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Atillo, your post put a big smile on my face. Suggesting that my comment " What a horrible injustice to the American people that would be " was narrow minded, followed by your further demeaning of my post, is well beneath you, and I contend a bit naive and possibly foolish. So let me give you a better idea of what I am actually saying. I believe in personal freedom to choose. There is no way any governing body, which typically are centers of mediocricy, can justly and fairly decide what is best for me. If they do make policies that limit my choices, I believe that to be an infringement upon my rights. Given that the politicians that run countries are taking huge amounts of money from drug companies and drug companies are responsible for deceptions that are in my mind criminal in nature, why on earth would you want to allow such a biased, uneducated, money driven system to take any of our choices away? I find what has happened with regulation in Europe to be a crying shame. I do not want the US to follow in any way. I have no envy of the fact that Europeans have given much of their supplement rights away to powers who's policy is to push drugs over healing modalities and finds underhanded ways to continually misinform. This unfortunate situation only leads to people feeling scared and hopeless to take personal responsibility for their health. Sure, there are risks to allowing public access to herbs and nutritional products, but that risk does not in my mind give the any government the authority limit my or any one else's access to them. In the US a month or so ago, there was an unfortunate incident where a women, who was in a water drinking contest, died form her involvement. Sad, but it was her choice to do it. You will find countless examples of people, having the right to choose without impediment, saving their lives that would otherwise been lost if they followed the narrow minded approach of the drugged lobbyists and government officials. It is, and always will be my preference to give the widest options of choice to the people and give them as much information as possible so they can make the best choice for their lives as possible. Mistakes and pain will be involved in some instances. Dramatic success will prevail much more often. That is the nature of personal involvement and responsibility. Chris Allison In a message dated 3/6/2007 10:34:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, attiliodalberto writes: That's a bit of a narrow minded comment. All developed countries look and see what other countries are doing. If other countries are tackling a problem and it works then other countries will follow. It's swings and roundabouts. You follow me, then i follow you. I think your comments have more to do with the idea that you just don't like the thought that the US is behind other countries when it comes to things such as regulation. I'm not surprised by your comments. I was expecting someone to reply in the way you did. Regards Attilio www.chinesemedicinewww.chine <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 I guess that's really my question...why is this happening? I know, after talking with these very reputatable companies that they say they don't sell to non practitioners but here is an example of just that. I won't use one company just because they have no policy to be suppliers for practitioners ONLY. When money overrides people's health, I begin to wonder what this is all about? Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > I don;t know how it happens but I did tell a story of a patient who bought Calm Spirit by Health Concerns online. > > She said " Oh, I ran out so I bought a big bottle. " I explained that it was prescribed for her, so a health practitioner should be giving instructions on it. > > I refer people to lots of over the counter natural products but really don't like them taking these formulas on their own. > > Anyone know of why it's happening. > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " Diane Notarianni " <Diane > > I came across a website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like one of the > > most > > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we use. I was > > under the > > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, Chinese Modular > > Solutions and > > many others were NOT selling to the general public. > > Can anyone explain to me if this is legal or what this is about? I don't think > > I need to mention > > how this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners. Diane > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 It's all about how herbs are classified and regulation of herbal medicine. At the moment in the US, herbs are classified as foods, which means anyone can sell and not just herbalists. If herbal medicine was regulated, like in Europe, then only those deemed as herbalists can prescribe and sell medicinal herbs. I'm sure the US will follow Europe and regulate herbal medicine, its just a question of when. Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , " Diane Notarianni " <Diane wrote: > > I guess that's really my question...why is this happening? I know, after talking with these > very reputatable companies that they say they don't sell to non practitioners but here is an > example of just that. I won't use one company just because they have no policy to be > suppliers for practitioners ONLY. When money overrides people's health, I begin to > wonder what this is all about? > > Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley@ wrote: > > > > I don;t know how it happens but I did tell a story of a patient who bought Calm Spirit by > Health Concerns online. > > > > She said " Oh, I ran out so I bought a big bottle. " I explained that it was prescribed for > her, so a health practitioner should be giving instructions on it. > > > > I refer people to lots of over the counter natural products but really don't like them > taking these formulas on their own. > > > > Anyone know of why it's happening. > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > " Diane Notarianni " <Diane@> > > > I came across a website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like one of the > > > most > > > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we use. I was > > > under the > > > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, Chinese Modular > > > Solutions and > > > many others were NOT selling to the general public. > > > Can anyone explain to me if this is legal or what this is about? I don't think > > > I need to mention > > > how this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners. Diane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Diane: With vitamins that are sold to practitioners only, you can find them at an online pharmacy, because someone with a license purchased them and then resold them. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Diane Notarianni " <Diane > I guess that's really my question...why is this happening? I know, after talking > with these > very reputatable companies that they say they don't sell to non practitioners > but here is an > example of just that. I won't use one company just because they have no policy > to be > suppliers for practitioners ONLY. When money overrides people's health, I begin > to > wonder what this is all about? > > Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley wrote: > > > > I don;t know how it happens but I did tell a story of a patient who bought > Calm Spirit by > Health Concerns online. > > > > She said " Oh, I ran out so I bought a big bottle. " I explained that it was > prescribed for > her, so a health practitioner should be giving instructions on it. > > > > I refer people to lots of over the counter natural products but really don't > like them > taking these formulas on their own. > > > > Anyone know of why it's happening. > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > " Diane Notarianni " <Diane > > > I came across a website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like one of > the > > > most > > > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we use. I was > > > under the > > > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, Chinese Modular > > > Solutions and > > > many others were NOT selling to the general public. > > > Can anyone explain to me if this is legal or what this is about? I don't > think > > > I need to mention > > > how this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners. Diane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 > I came across a website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like one of the most > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we use. there are many other sites like this. > I was under the > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, Chinese Modular Solutions and > many others were NOT selling to the general public. They are not selling wholesale to the public which is the common and reasonable way of doing business. What they can not do (legally in the US and any where herbs do not require practitioner dispensing) is restrict its resale to the public. > Can anyone explain to me if this is legal or what this is about? I don't think I need to mention > how this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners. I am not sure if you are referring to your potential " lost " revenue since you feel you can not compete or because you feel that self medicating with herbs is " potentially a danger " to the patient. I'd like to begin by stating that ideologically I disagree with government regulation where the direct safety of citizens is not a concern. So I will not address the later issue at length since taking herbs with out knowing their effect is stupidity, but hardly classifies as a direct danger to any one. I would hate to think of the negative impact such laws would create on health for those using alternative medicine and the hardships on entire communities here in the US if that was the case. So regarding the first point. It is not the government's job in my opinion to provide some one with tools to help remove competition in a field, which of course is the underlying motivation in most professional regulation despite it being built on a true and justified need, we don't want people reusing needles haphazardly in to other peoples chests and eyeballs... Given that, the reaction we should all have to on-line retailers and others entering in to our markets is to realize we need to compete competitively and with new angles. Just an example, when 15 years ago I used to build computers for profit, when it was later cheaper to purchase from Dell, I charged a consultant fee to my clients to find them the best deals and to set their machines up. I made more money doing that, scraped up far fewer knuckles from sharp edges from the insides of cases and was able to concentrate on producing better software for my clients which I enjoyed far more. One way (although there are many more) to help your issue is alternative ways of dispensing. I know of a number of practitioners that " custom " dispense their herb pills and powders out of their " pharmacies " . This also gives the patient a greater sense that their individuality was taken in to account in their treatment and happily ties them to you and your personal pharmacy. CM is a growing field and it is only a matter of time until insurance makes it possible for even the worst practitioners to make a living, being competitive be it in skills or business is going to be more and more important in the coming years. David Botton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 > What a horrible injustice to the American people that would be. True, just think of the fiascos with red yeast rice and stevia here in the US...... just to name of a few.... David Botton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 That's a bit of a narrow minded comment. All developed countries look and see what other countries are doing. If other countries are tackling a problem and it works then other countries will follow. It's swings and roundabouts. You follow me, then i follow you. I think your comments have more to do with the idea that you just don't like the thought that the US is behind other countries when it comes to things such as regulation. I'm not surprised by your comments. I was expecting someone to reply in the way you did. Regards Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , Musiclear wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/6/2007 8:58:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, > attiliodalberto writes: > > I'm sure the US will follow Europe and regulate herbal medicine, its > just a question of when. > > Attilio > _www.chinesemedicinewww.chine_ (http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com) What a horrible injustice to the American people that would be. > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 i think in lieu of a legal fda regulation it would be helpful if the acupuncture community could work with the herb supply co's to develop something equivalent to pharmaceutical grade vitamins for herbs (which is probably what we have already) and then get an agreement that the supply co's won't sell to a vendor selling who sells directly to the public. without fda involvement, it would be impossible to enforce. even with fda involvement it would be diff. anyone who puts making a buck (yen, pound, peso, whatever) ahead of what's best for patients and for our profession will disregard the regs, go ahead and sell the products until some gvm't agency comes along and forces them to stop. kath On 3/6/07, anne.crowley <anne.crowley wrote: > > Diane: > > With vitamins that are sold to practitioners only, you can find them at an > online pharmacy, because someone with a license purchased them and then > resold them. > > Anne > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > " Diane Notarianni " <Diane<Diane%40oneworldmedicine.com> > > > > I guess that's really my question...why is this happening? I know, after > talking > > with these > > very reputatable companies that they say they don't sell to non > practitioners > > but here is an > > example of just that. I won't use one company just because they have no > policy > > to be > > suppliers for practitioners ONLY. When money overrides people's health, > I begin > > to > > wonder what this is all about? > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > anne.crowley wrote: > > > > > > I don;t know how it happens but I did tell a story of a patient who > bought > > Calm Spirit by > > Health Concerns online. > > > > > > She said " Oh, I ran out so I bought a big bottle. " I explained that it > was > > prescribed for > > her, so a health practitioner should be giving instructions on it. > > > > > > I refer people to lots of over the counter natural products but really > don't > > like them > > taking these formulas on their own. > > > > > > Anyone know of why it's happening. > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > > " Diane Notarianni " <Diane > > > > I came across a website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like > one of > > the > > > > most > > > > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we > use. I was > > > > under the > > > > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, Chinese > Modular > > > > Solutions and > > > > many others were NOT selling to the general public. > > > > Can anyone explain to me if this is legal or what this is about? I > don't > > think > > > > I need to mention > > > > how this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners. Diane > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Are you sure it's illegal in the UK? There are many retailers selling in stores and online in the UK. Chinese Medicine , Musiclear wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/6/2007 8:58:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, > attiliodalberto writes: > > I'm sure the US will follow Europe and regulate herbal medicine, its > just a question of when. > > Attilio > _www.chinesemedicinewww.chine_ (http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com) What a horrible injustice to the American people that would be. > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > http://www.aol.com. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 You have described the current situation. I think though that you will find not every one agrees that making herbs available OTC is a bad thing for the patients or profession. The problem is that regulating away personal rites form people to force them to use a CM practitioner's services for non dangerous substances is exactly what will hurt the quality of service provided in the long and short term. Making relatively safe products " controlled " substances is hardly the sort of PR image we should be trying to portray, instead portraying CM professionals as knowledgeable in how to pick and tailor the right formula (all the more so custom formulas) and treatment protocols is a more positive and productive image. We need to think about raising the bar on our capabilities as practitioners to differentiate between the " aspirin " they get over the counter and the " penicillin " they should be getting from us. If we agree to legislate away others rights, what is to stop those rights from being legislated away from us? (look up the history of Florida's naturopaths as an interesting case study) David Botton Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > > i think in lieu of a legal fda regulation it would be helpful if the > acupuncture community could work with the herb supply co's to develop > something equivalent to pharmaceutical grade vitamins for herbs (which is > probably what we have already) and then get an agreement that the supply > co's won't sell to a vendor selling who sells directly to the public. > without fda involvement, it would be impossible to enforce. even with fda > involvement it would be diff. anyone who puts making a buck (yen, pound, > peso, whatever) ahead of what's best for patients and for our profession > will disregard the regs, go ahead and sell the products until some gvm't > agency comes along and forces them to stop. > > kath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 It's illegal to sell online not in stores. Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com --- In Chinese Medicine , " TCMdirectory.com " <pokerboy729 wrote: > > Are you sure it's illegal in the UK? There are many retailers selling > in stores and online in the UK. > > > Chinese Medicine , Musiclear@ wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 3/6/2007 8:58:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > attiliodalberto@ writes: > > > > I'm sure the US will follow Europe and regulate herbal medicine, its > > just a question of when. > > > > Attilio > > _www.chinesemedicinewww.chine_ (http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What a horrible injustice to the American people that would be. > > <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now > offers free > > email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at > > http://www.aol.com. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 I don't agree that ALL Chinese herbal medicines should only be given to patients by a qualified herbalist. Such standardised medicines such as cough mixtures, pain pills, headaches, etc could be given OTC like regular drugs in pharmacies. However, stronger medicines should only be prescribed after a consultation with a qualified herbalist. The problem is who decides which herbs are weak and can be used OTC and which ones are stronger and should only be given by a herbalist. The problem seen in Europe when they reclassified herbs as either foods or medicines was some common herbs as Ginseng, Dang Gui and Gou Qi Zi were classified as foods whilst the rest as medicines. I'm sure the reason for this was that large cosmetic companies use some of these herbs such as Ginseng in their products and they must have lobbed the European Union at the time the legislation was made to get them exempt. Regards Attilio www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Chinese Medicine , " David Botton " <david wrote: > > You have described the current situation. I think though that you will find not every one > agrees that making herbs available OTC is a bad thing for the patients or profession. The > problem is that regulating away personal rites form people to force them to use a CM > practitioner's services for non dangerous substances is exactly what will hurt the quality of > service provided in the long and short term. > > Making relatively safe products " controlled " substances is hardly the sort of PR image we > should be trying to portray, instead portraying CM professionals as knowledgeable in how > to pick and tailor the right formula (all the more so custom formulas) and treatment > protocols is a more positive and productive image. > > We need to think about raising the bar on our capabilities as practitioners to differentiate > between the " aspirin " they get over the counter and the " penicillin " they should be getting > from us. > > If we agree to legislate away others rights, what is to stop those rights from being > legislated away from us? (look up the history of Florida's naturopaths as an interesting > case study) > > > David Botton > > > Chinese Medicine , " Kath Bartlett, MS, LAc " > <acukath@> wrote: > > > > i think in lieu of a legal fda regulation it would be helpful if the > > acupuncture community could work with the herb supply co's to develop > > something equivalent to pharmaceutical grade vitamins for herbs (which is > > probably what we have already) and then get an agreement that the supply > > co's won't sell to a vendor selling who sells directly to the public. > > without fda involvement, it would be impossible to enforce. even with fda > > involvement it would be diff. anyone who puts making a buck (yen, pound, > > peso, whatever) ahead of what's best for patients and for our profession > > will disregard the regs, go ahead and sell the products until some gvm't > > agency comes along and forces them to stop. > > > > kath > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 We must be very careful not to think or healthcare as a commodity. It is not. Terrible things may happen if we allow that type of thought to frame the discussion. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : david: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 14:34:40 +0000Re: herb sales online > I came across a website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like one of the most > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we use.there are many other sites like this.> I was under the > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, Chinese Modular Solutions and > many others were NOT selling to the general public. They are not selling wholesale to the public which is the common and reasonable way of doing business.What they can not do (legally in the US and any where herbs do not require practitioner dispensing) is restrict its resale to the public.> Can anyone explain to me if this is legal or what this is about? I don't think I need to mention > how this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners.I am not sure if you are referring to your potential " lost " revenue since you feel you can not compete or because you feel that self medicating with herbs is " potentially a danger " to the patient.I'd like to begin by stating that ideologically I disagree with government regulation where the direct safety of citizens is not a concern. So I will not address the later issue at length since taking herbs with out knowing their effect is stupidity, but hardly classifies as a direct danger to any one. I would hate to think of the negative impact such laws would create on health for those using alternative medicine and the hardships on entire communities here in the US if that was the case.So regarding the first point. It is not the government's job in my opinion to provide some one with tools to help remove competition in a field, which of course is the underlying motivation in most professional regulation despite it being built on a true and justified need, we don't want people reusing needles haphazardly in to other peoples chests and eyeballs...Given that, the reaction we should all have to on-line retailers and others entering in to our markets is to realize we need to compete competitively and with new angles.Just an example, when 15 years ago I used to build computers for profit, when it was later cheaper to purchase from Dell, I charged a consultant fee to my clients to find them the best deals and to set their machines up. I made more money doing that, scraped up far fewer knuckles from sharp edges from the insides of cases and was able to concentrate on producing better software for my clients which I enjoyed far more.One way (although there are many more) to help your issue is alternative ways of dispensing. I know of a number of practitioners that " custom " dispense their herb pills and powders out of their " pharmacies " . This also gives the patient a greater sense that their individuality was taken in to account in their treatment and happily ties them to you and your personal pharmacy.CM is a growing field and it is only a matter of time until insurance makes it possible for even the worst practitioners to make a living, being competitive be it in skills or business is going to be more and more important in the coming years.David Botton _______________ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us & source=wlmai\ ltagline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 Attilio states, " If herbal medicine was regulated, like in Europe, then only those deemed as herbalists can prescribe and sell medicinal herbs. " That is not likely to happen here in the US, as CAM is becoming more the talk you will see more interest from the MD, who have no training. Herbalists do not exist as any kind of entity and are in a much worse place than the LAc as far as professional stature. What you will see is one profession dominated and taken over by another, and maybe even eliminated unless you also have an MD license. Politics and money determine a lot. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : attiliodalberto: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:56:18 +0000TCM - Re: herb sales online It's all about how herbs are classified and regulation of herbal medicine. At the moment in the US, herbs are classified as foods, which means anyone can sell and not just herbalists. If herbal medicine was regulated, like in Europe, then only those deemed as herbalists can prescribe and sell medicinal herbs.I'm sure the US will follow Europe and regulate herbal medicine, its just a question of when.Attiliowww.chinesemedicinetimes.com --- In Chinese Medicine , " Diane Notarianni " <Diane wrote:>> I guess that's really my question...why is this happening? I know, after talking with these > very reputatable companies that they say they don't sell to non practitioners but here is an > example of just that. I won't use one company just because they have no policy to be > suppliers for practitioners ONLY. When money overrides people's health, I begin to > wonder what this is all about?> > Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley@ wrote:> >> > I don;t know how it happens but I did tell a story of a patient who bought Calm Spirit by > Health Concerns online.> > > > She said " Oh, I ran out so I bought a big bottle. " I explained that it was prescribed for > her, so a health practitioner should be giving instructions on it. > > > > I refer people to lots of over the counter natural products but really don't like them > taking these formulas on their own. > > > > Anyone know of why it's happening.> > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------> > " Diane Notarianni " <Diane@>> > > I came across a website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like one of the > > > most > > > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we use. I was > > > under the > > > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, Chinese Modular > > > Solutions and > > > many others were NOT selling to the general public. > > > Can anyone explain to me if this is legal or what this is about? I don't think > > > I need to mention > > > how this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners. Diane> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >> _______________ News, entertainment and everything you care about at Live.com. Get it now! http://www.live.com/getstarted.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2007 Report Share Posted March 6, 2007 > We must be very careful not to think or healthcare as a commodity. It is not. > Terrible things may happen if we allow that type of thought to frame the > discussion. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac The issue is that we can not become enforcers, creating government regulations to " protect " our financial interests and we need to carefully review ourselves to insure we are not slipping in to such a thought process. At the same time we need to be realistic about how to create a viable practice in the free enterprise reality of most societies we live in. David Botton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Actually the herbalists are getting well organized and setting a standard of profesionalism check out www.americanherbalistsguild.com the idea is that if we don't regulate herbalisms from within at some point the feds will try and do it for us....I'm guessing we will not like the standards they will set. The professional status they set is Registered Herbalist (RH) which i consider I higher standard thay CH since that board exam merely shows that you can memorize and that you sat in class. bob www.acuherbals.com mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: Attilio states, " If herbal medicine was regulated, like in Europe, then only those deemed as herbalists can prescribe and sell medicinal herbs. " That is not likely to happen here in the US, as CAM is becoming more the talk you will see more interest from the MD, who have no training. Herbalists do not exist as any kind of entity and are in a much worse place than the LAc as far as professional stature. What you will see is one profession dominated and taken over by another, and maybe even eliminated unless you also have an MD license. Politics and money determine a lot. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac : attiliodalberto: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:56:18 +0000TCM - Re: herb sales online It's all about how herbs are classified and regulation of herbal medicine. At the moment in the US, herbs are classified as foods, which means anyone can sell and not just herbalists. If herbal medicine was regulated, like in Europe, then only those deemed as herbalists can prescribe and sell medicinal herbs.I'm sure the US will follow Europe and regulate herbal medicine, its just a question of when.Attiliowww.chinesemedicinetimes.com --- In Chinese Medicine , " Diane Notarianni " <Diane wrote:>> I guess that's really my question...why is this happening? I know, after talking with these > very reputatable companies that they say they don't sell to non practitioners but here is an > example of just that. I won't use one company just because they have no policy to be > suppliers for practitioners ONLY. When money overrides people's health, I begin to > wonder what this is all about?> > Chinese Medicine , anne.crowley@ wrote:> >> > I don;t know how it happens but I did tell a story of a patient who bought Calm Spirit by > Health Concerns online.> > > > She said " Oh, I ran out so I bought a big bottle. " I explained that it was prescribed for > her, so a health practitioner should be giving instructions on it. > > > > I refer people to lots of over the counter natural products but really don't like them > taking these formulas on their own. > > > > Anyone know of why it's happening.> > > > > > > > -------------- Original message ----------------------> > " Diane Notarianni " <Diane@>> > > I came across a website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like one of the > > > most > > > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we use. I was > > > under the > > > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, Chinese Modular > > > Solutions and > > > many others were NOT selling to the general public. > > > Can anyone explain to me if this is legal or what this is about? I don't think > > > I need to mention > > > how this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners. Diane> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 David: I am not crazy about regulating it, however, I do think taking herbs on your own, without some practitioner oversight can potentially be dangerous. I prescribed Long Dan Xie Gan Wan to this patient for an acute condition. I don't want her taking it over the long run, unless the condition flares up. She is the one who has access to the internet store. I really want her to see me or someone else who tells her that what is going on with her at the moment warrents a particular herb. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " David Botton " <david > You have described the current situation. I think though that you will find not > every one > agrees that making herbs available OTC is a bad thing for the patients or > profession. The > problem is that regulating away personal rites form people to force them to use > a CM > practitioner's services for non dangerous substances is exactly what will hurt > the quality of > service provided in the long and short term. > > Making relatively safe products " controlled " substances is hardly the sort of PR > image we > should be trying to portray, instead portraying CM professionals as > knowledgeable in how > to pick and tailor the right formula (all the more so custom formulas) and > treatment > protocols is a more positive and productive image. > > We need to think about raising the bar on our capabilities as practitioners to > differentiate > between the " aspirin " they get over the counter and the " penicillin " they should > be getting > from us. > > If we agree to legislate away others rights, what is to stop those rights from > being > legislated away from us? (look up the history of Florida's naturopaths as an > interesting > case study) > > > David Botton > > > Chinese Medicine , " " > wrote: > > > > i think in lieu of a legal fda regulation it would be helpful if the > > acupuncture community could work with the herb supply co's to develop > > something equivalent to pharmaceutical grade vitamins for herbs (which is > > probably what we have already) and then get an agreement that the supply > > co's won't sell to a vendor selling who sells directly to the public. > > without fda involvement, it would be impossible to enforce. even with fda > > involvement it would be diff. anyone who puts making a buck (yen, pound, > > peso, whatever) ahead of what's best for patients and for our profession > > will disregard the regs, go ahead and sell the products until some gvm't > > agency comes along and forces them to stop. > > > > kath > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Bob: I respectfully disagree. To sit for the exam, you need so many clinical hours. I think when people go to see a professional , they expect them to have attended some formal training, hopefully college. Granted the RH may have a lot of knowledge but I also want to see the formal training. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist > Actually the herbalists are getting well organized and setting a standard of > profesionalism check out www.americanherbalistsguild.com the idea is that if we > don't regulate herbalisms from within at some point the feds will try and do it > for us....I'm guessing we will not like the standards they will set. The > professional status they set is Registered Herbalist (RH) which i consider I > higher standard thay CH since that board exam merely shows that you can memorize > and that you sat in class. > bob > www.acuherbals.com > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > Attilio states, > > " If herbal medicine was regulated, like in Europe, then only those deemed as > herbalists can prescribe and sell medicinal herbs. " > > That is not likely to happen here in the US, as CAM is becoming more the talk > you will see more interest from the MD, who have no training. Herbalists > do not exist as any kind of entity and are in a much worse place than the LAc > as far as professional stature. What you will see is one profession dominated > and taken over by another, and maybe even eliminated unless you also have > an MD license. Politics and money determine a lot. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > : > attiliodalberto: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:56:18 +0000TCM - > Re: herb sales online > > It's all about how herbs are classified and regulation of herbal medicine. At > the moment in the US, herbs are classified as foods, which means anyone can sell > and not just herbalists. If herbal medicine was regulated, like in Europe, then > only those deemed as herbalists can prescribe and sell medicinal herbs.I'm sure > the US will follow Europe and regulate herbal medicine, its just a question of > when.Attiliowww.chinesemedicinetimes.com --- In > Chinese Medicine , " Diane Notarianni " <Diane > wrote:>> I guess that's really my question...why is this happening? I know, > after talking with these > very reputatable companies that they say they don't > sell to non practitioners but here is an > example of just that. I won't use one > company just because they have no policy to be > suppliers for practitioners > ONLY. When money overrides people's health, I begin to > wonder what this is all > about?> > Chinese Medicine , > anne.crowley@ wrote:> >> > I don;t know how it happens but I did tell a story > of a patient who bought Calm Spirit by > Health Concerns online.> > > > She said > " Oh, I ran out so I bought a big bottle. " I explained that it was prescribed for > > her, so a health practitioner should be giving instructions on it. > > > > I > refer people to lots of over the counter natural products but really don't like > them > taking these formulas on their own. > > > > Anyone know of why it's > happening.> > > > > > > > -------------- Original message > ----------------------> > " Diane Notarianni " <Diane@>> > > I came across a > website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like one of the > > > most > > > > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we use. I was > > > > under the > > > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, > Chinese Modular > > > Solutions and > > > many others were NOT selling to the > general public. > > > Can anyone explain to me if this is > legal or what this is about? I don't think > > > I need to mention > > > how > this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners. Diane> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 CHoice, nothing, I been sayin we need to ban dat stuff for years. Hugo " Musiclear " <Musiclear there was an unfortunate incident where a women, who was in a water drinking contest, died form her involvement. Sad, but it was her choice to do it. Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Change settings via the Web ( ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Terms of Use | Un Recent Activity 7 New Members 1 New Photos Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Life is inherently dangerous. We cannot regulate activities or beneficial products because they might be dangerous to some people who use them improperly. Take a look at the dangers of OTC drugs that are already available to the public and tell me honestly that our formulas are more dangerous than what is already out there. How many deaths do you think our formulas are going to cause compared to what is caused from bleeding ulcers alone. If we offer up the option with a smile for the FDA to regulate our herbs, then we offer up the whole range of supplements as drugs and we will potentially going to the doctor to get a prescription for 100mg of Vit. C. This is a very dangerous slope littered with well meaning people honestly hoping to make the system better. In the end, any open door for making our supplements practitioner required will open the door wide for unnecessary regulation for anything they want and that would be a terrible disservice to the public. To me, the real protection for the public is allowing full access with full disclosure of how to use them. Chris In a message dated 3/7/2007 5:52:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: Anne, I'll tell you an antecdote about Long Dan Xie Gan Wan: I had a patient,a manic-depressive who had excess phlegm and liver fire, call me up desparately, " Help me! I feel like I'm dying. My heart is beating a mile a minute, my face is on fire, I'm sweating like crazy, and I can't sleep. " Her pulses were wiry and rapid, and her tongue had a red body with a dry yellow coating and teethmarks on the sides. She had previously scheduled to see me in 5 days. I prescribed LDXGW, with explicit instructions to take if for 2 days only, and then call me before taking any more! I never heard from her until the appointment. When she showed up, it was like hearing a tape recorder, " Help me! I feel like i'm dying " I asked her if her racing heart settled down, she said, yes!, was she still burning up? no!, Was she still sweating? no! If she still unable to sleep? no! So what's wrong? " I'm freezing now, and a haven't made a bowel movement in 3 days. HELLO! What did I ask her to do? Call me in 2 days and don't take anymore of the medicine without speaking to me. This is a medicine that is readily available by mail to the public? Not terribly appropriate, methinks. Yehuda _anne.crowley_ (anne.crowley) wrote: David: I am not crazy about regulating it, however, I do think taking herbs on your own, without some practitioner oversight can potentially be dangerous. I prescribed Long Dan Xie Gan Wan to this patient for an acute condition. I don't want her taking it over the long run, unless the condition flares up. She is the one who has access to the internet store. I really want her to see me or someone else who tells her that what is going on with her at the moment warrents a particular herb. Anne <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 They actually require 4 years clinical experience and some type of training, formal or informal, case studies, and essay questions. Most folks are turned way the first time aswell for a lack of experience, this material is looked at by a 3 tiered review board as well as a requirement for continuing education. B anne.crowley wrote: Bob: I respectfully disagree. To sit for the exam, you need so many clinical hours. I think when people go to see a professional , they expect them to have attended some formal training, hopefully college. Granted the RH may have a lot of knowledge but I also want to see the formal training. Anne -------------- Original message ---------------------- " Bob Linde,AP, Herbalist " <boblindeherbalist > Actually the herbalists are getting well organized and setting a standard of > profesionalism check out www.americanherbalistsguild.com the idea is that if we > don't regulate herbalisms from within at some point the feds will try and do it > for us....I'm guessing we will not like the standards they will set. The > professional status they set is Registered Herbalist (RH) which i consider I > higher standard thay CH since that board exam merely shows that you can memorize > and that you sat in class. > bob > www.acuherbals.com > > mike Bowser <naturaldoc1 wrote: > Attilio states, > > " If herbal medicine was regulated, like in Europe, then only those deemed as > herbalists can prescribe and sell medicinal herbs. " > > That is not likely to happen here in the US, as CAM is becoming more the talk > you will see more interest from the MD, who have no training. Herbalists > do not exist as any kind of entity and are in a much worse place than the LAc > as far as professional stature. What you will see is one profession dominated > and taken over by another, and maybe even eliminated unless you also have > an MD license. Politics and money determine a lot. Mike W. Bowser, L Ac > > : > attiliodalberto: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 13:56:18 +0000TCM - > Re: herb sales online > > It's all about how herbs are classified and regulation of herbal medicine. At > the moment in the US, herbs are classified as foods, which means anyone can sell > and not just herbalists. If herbal medicine was regulated, like in Europe, then > only those deemed as herbalists can prescribe and sell medicinal herbs.I'm sure > the US will follow Europe and regulate herbal medicine, its just a question of > when.Attiliowww.chinesemedicinetimes.com --- In > Chinese Medicine , " Diane Notarianni " <Diane > wrote:>> I guess that's really my question...why is this happening? I know, > after talking with these > very reputatable companies that they say they don't > sell to non practitioners but here is an > example of just that. I won't use one > company just because they have no policy to be > suppliers for practitioners > ONLY. When money overrides people's health, I begin to > wonder what this is all > about?> > Chinese Medicine , > anne.crowley@ wrote:> >> > I don;t know how it happens but I did tell a story > of a patient who bought Calm Spirit by > Health Concerns online.> > > > She said > " Oh, I ran out so I bought a big bottle. " I explained that it was prescribed for > > her, so a health practitioner should be giving instructions on it. > > > > I > refer people to lots of over the counter natural products but really don't like > them > taking these formulas on their own. > > > > Anyone know of why it's > happening.> > > > > > > > -------------- Original message > ----------------------> > " Diane Notarianni " <Diane@>> > > I came across a > website (wellnessworks.net) selling what looks like one of the > > > most > > > > comprehensive lists of all the herbs and herbal companies that we use. I was > > > > under the > > > conception that good companies like Kan, Health Concerns, > Chinese Modular > > > Solutions and > > > many others were NOT selling to the > general public. > > > Can anyone explain to me if this is > legal or what this is about? I don't think > > > I need to mention > > > how > this can affect the patient nor us as practitioners. Diane> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2007 Report Share Posted March 7, 2007 Simplistically, I would say some people believe government is a benevolent organization that given a chance will help make everyone's life better. There are others who believe that given an opportunity, government will make most situations worse. In the US, unfortunately, the more government involvement there is, the further from " good " things seem to become. This is especially true when there are alternative motives involved that are evident but publicly unspoken. The seemingly unspoken motivation of some law enforcement arms of the US government is to give the drug companies and doctors as much of the pie as possible. Even if this means the greater good of the people is compromised. Until this seemingly obvious situation is recognized, then well meaning people will wonder why some of us are unwilling to give our right to choose over to an organization that does not seem have our best interests at heart. And to Attilio, my apologies for attacking you in a previous post. It was rude and does not reflect the respect that I hold for you. Chris In a message dated 3/7/2007 8:53:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, attiliodalberto writes: When MD's take over some aspects of herbal medicine, the FDA bans herbs because of fears it can kill people when not prescribed properly and quality is an issue and when you don't have access to primary healthcare, don't moan about it, coz that's the path you chose. All those problems could be eliminated if regulation was introduced. It would benefit practitioners, the industry and patients. I don't know why everyone is so apposed to it. Attilio www.chinesemedicinewww.chine <BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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