Guest guest Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 My malpractice insurance (American Acupuncture Council) requires the use of single use needles. For me the expense of an autoclave makes using single use needles cheaper and without the worry. At $65 a treatment, if I use 25 needles on a patient, even if I use Seirins at almost .10 cents each, that is still only $2.50 in needles. I can see no benefit to re-using needles. Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 9832 N. Hayden Rd. Suite 215 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Phil Rogers Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:35 AM Chinese Medicine Single-use needles mandatory? Hi Chris & All, I wrote: >> IMO, it is FAR more important to use STERILE SINGLE USE needles (that are NOT re-used in another session) than to swab the skin. Prion infection can withstand ASHING at 600 degrees centigrade! See: http://www.pnas. <http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf> org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf I have pleaded on several AP lists for a formal BAN by National Licensing Authorities on the re-use of acupuncture needles. IMO, no acupuncturist should attempt to sterilise used needles for reuse. << Chris replied: > California passed a law last year mandating single-use of needles. > Estimate was that even prior to that, something like 99% of > practitioners were doing that. I am delighted that California mandates that. However, IMO, ALL states/countries should ban needle re-use, at least BETWEEN (or across) patients. Unfortunately, some countries have NOT done so. Some AP colleagues argue that if CONVENTIONAL HOSPITALS/CLINICS may " sterilise and re-use " medical instruments, acupuncturists should be allowed the same rights, i.e. to clean, " sterilise " and re-use needles. IMO, this is a great pity. We will lose a public relations coup, whereby we could say loud and clear to the public: " we will not take ANY risk of cross- contamination of our patients by re-using needles " . IMO, ALL AP Licensing bodies should enforce that principle, and strike off any practitioner who is convicted of reusing needles between patients. Best regards, -- Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: 1/23/2007 11:04 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 Hi All, I have been attending a japanese practitioner, Ikeda Masakazu sensei's seminar where I learned how to use gold neeles. He uses gold needles if the patient is really weak because they have tonification property. When I touched the gold needle, I could feel the warmth the needle had. I believe Ikeda sensei uses mostly single-use needles lately, but some practitioners in Japan are still using re-use needles. I think the main reason is the quality of the needles. As there are good practitioner, there are good crafstman to make needles. It is a part of the history of acupuncture and I am sorry the decision of CA acupuncture board had made. Ami Matsumto, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine , " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler wrote: > > My malpractice insurance (American Acupuncture Council) requires the use > of single use needles. For me the expense of an autoclave makes using > single use needles cheaper and without the worry. > > At $65 a treatment, if I use 25 needles on a patient, even if I use > Seirins at almost .10 cents each, that is still only $2.50 in needles. > I can see no benefit to re-using needles. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > Oasis Acupuncture > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > Suite 215 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Phil > Rogers > Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:35 AM > Chinese Medicine > Single-use needles mandatory? > > > > Hi Chris & All, > > I wrote: > >> IMO, it is FAR more important to use STERILE SINGLE USE needles > (that are NOT re-used in another session) than to swab the skin. Prion > infection can withstand ASHING at 600 degrees centigrade! See: > http://www.pnas. <http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf> > org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf I have pleaded on several AP > lists for a formal BAN by National Licensing Authorities on the re- use > of > acupuncture needles. IMO, no acupuncturist should attempt to sterilise > used needles for reuse. << > > Chris replied: > > California passed a law last year mandating single-use of needles. > > Estimate was that even prior to that, something like 99% of > > practitioners were doing that. > > I am delighted that California mandates that. > > However, IMO, ALL states/countries should ban needle re-use, at least > BETWEEN (or across) patients. Unfortunately, some countries have NOT > done so. > > Some AP colleagues argue that if CONVENTIONAL HOSPITALS/CLINICS > may " sterilise and re-use " medical instruments, acupuncturists should be > > allowed the same rights, i.e. to clean, " sterilise " and re-use needles. > > IMO, this is a great pity. We will lose a public relations coup, whereby > we > could say loud and clear to the public: " we will not take ANY risk of > cross- > contamination of our patients by re-using needles " . > > IMO, ALL AP Licensing bodies should enforce that principle, and strike > off > any practitioner who is convicted of reusing needles between patients. > > Best regards, > > > > > > > -- > > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: > 1/23/2007 11:04 AM > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 Ami, Do you have a source for gold needles (for personal use)? On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:41 AM, amiacup wrote: > Hi All, > > I have been attending a japanese practitioner, Ikeda Masakazu > sensei's seminar where I learned how to use gold neeles. He uses > gold needles if the patient is really weak because they have > tonification property. When I touched the gold needle, I could feel > the warmth the needle had. > I believe Ikeda sensei uses mostly single-use needles lately, but > some practitioners in Japan are still using re-use needles. I think > the main reason is the quality of the needles. As there are good > practitioner, there are good crafstman to make needles. It is a part > of the history of acupuncture and I am sorry the decision of CA > acupuncture board had made. > Ami Matsumto, L.Ac. > > Chinese Medicine , " Christopher > Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler wrote: > > > > My malpractice insurance (American Acupuncture Council) requires > the use > > of single use needles. For me the expense of an autoclave makes > using > > single use needles cheaper and without the worry. > > > > At $65 a treatment, if I use 25 needles on a patient, even if I use > > Seirins at almost .10 cents each, that is still only $2.50 in > needles. > > I can see no benefit to re-using needles. > > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > > Oasis Acupuncture > > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > > Suite 215 > > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Phil > > Rogers > > Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:35 AM > > Chinese Medicine > > Single-use needles mandatory? > > > > > > > > Hi Chris & All, > > > > I wrote: > > >> IMO, it is FAR more important to use STERILE SINGLE USE needles > > (that are NOT re-used in another session) than to swab the skin. > Prion > > infection can withstand ASHING at 600 degrees centigrade! See: > > http://www.pnas. <http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf> > > org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf I have pleaded on several AP > > lists for a formal BAN by National Licensing Authorities on the re- > use > > of > > acupuncture needles. IMO, no acupuncturist should attempt to > sterilise > > used needles for reuse. << > > > > Chris replied: > > > California passed a law last year mandating single-use of > needles. > > > Estimate was that even prior to that, something like 99% of > > > practitioners were doing that. > > > > I am delighted that California mandates that. > > > > However, IMO, ALL states/countries should ban needle re-use, at > least > > BETWEEN (or across) patients. Unfortunately, some countries have > NOT > > done so. > > > > Some AP colleagues argue that if CONVENTIONAL HOSPITALS/CLINICS > > may " sterilise and re-use " medical instruments, acupuncturists > should be > > > > allowed the same rights, i.e. to clean, " sterilise " and re-use > needles. > > > > IMO, this is a great pity. We will lose a public relations coup, > whereby > > we > > could say loud and clear to the public: " we will not take ANY risk > of > > cross- > > contamination of our patients by re-using needles " . > > > > IMO, ALL AP Licensing bodies should enforce that principle, and > strike > > off > > any practitioner who is convicted of reusing needles between > patients. > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: > > 1/23/2007 11:04 AM > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Z'ev , look at http://www.goacupuncture.com/cgi-bin/ie/ProductList.pl?CategoryID=10119 Millenia brand is the only commercial gold ones that I found when I searched... Has anyone used these 24 K gold needles before? On 1/23/07, <zrosenbe wrote: > > Ami, > Do you have a source for gold needles (for personal use)? > > > > On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:41 AM, amiacup wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > I have been attending a japanese practitioner, Ikeda Masakazu > > sensei's seminar where I learned how to use gold neeles. He uses > > gold needles if the patient is really weak because they have > > tonification property. When I touched the gold needle, I could feel > > the warmth the needle had. > > I believe Ikeda sensei uses mostly single-use needles lately, but > > some practitioners in Japan are still using re-use needles. I think > > the main reason is the quality of the needles. As there are good > > practitioner, there are good crafstman to make needles. It is a part > > of the history of acupuncture and I am sorry the decision of CA > > acupuncture board had made. > > Ami Matsumto, L.Ac. > > > > --- In Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com>, > " Christopher > > Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler wrote: > > > > > > My malpractice insurance (American Acupuncture Council) requires > > the use > > > of single use needles. For me the expense of an autoclave makes > > using > > > single use needles cheaper and without the worry. > > > > > > At $65 a treatment, if I use 25 needles on a patient, even if I use > > > Seirins at almost .10 cents each, that is still only $2.50 in > > needles. > > > I can see no benefit to re-using needles. > > > > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > > > Oasis Acupuncture > > > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > > > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > > > Suite 215 > > > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Medicin\ e%40>] > On Behalf Of > > Phil > > > Rogers > > > Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:35 AM > > > To: Chinese Medicine <Chinese Medicine%40yaho\ ogroups.com> > > > Single-use needles mandatory? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chris & All, > > > > > > I wrote: > > > >> IMO, it is FAR more important to use STERILE SINGLE USE needles > > > (that are NOT re-used in another session) than to swab the skin. > > Prion > > > infection can withstand ASHING at 600 degrees centigrade! See: > > > http://www.pnas. <http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf> > > > org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf I have pleaded on several AP > > > lists for a formal BAN by National Licensing Authorities on the re- > > use > > > of > > > acupuncture needles. IMO, no acupuncturist should attempt to > > sterilise > > > used needles for reuse. << > > > > > > Chris replied: > > > > California passed a law last year mandating single-use of > > needles. > > > > Estimate was that even prior to that, something like 99% of > > > > practitioners were doing that. > > > > > > I am delighted that California mandates that. > > > > > > However, IMO, ALL states/countries should ban needle re-use, at > > least > > > BETWEEN (or across) patients. Unfortunately, some countries have > > NOT > > > done so. > > > > > > Some AP colleagues argue that if CONVENTIONAL HOSPITALS/CLINICS > > > may " sterilise and re-use " medical instruments, acupuncturists > > should be > > > > > > allowed the same rights, i.e. to clean, " sterilise " and re-use > > needles. > > > > > > IMO, this is a great pity. We will lose a public relations coup, > > whereby > > > we > > > could say loud and clear to the public: " we will not take ANY risk > > of > > > cross- > > > contamination of our patients by re-using needles " . > > > > > > IMO, ALL AP Licensing bodies should enforce that principle, and > > strike > > > off > > > any practitioner who is convicted of reusing needles between > > patients. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: > > > 1/23/2007 11:04 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Thank you, John. I think , however, these are the needles with gold- plated handles, not the body. Lhasa/OMS used to have pure gold and silver needles that I would use on individual patients who would buy there own sets, a number of years ago. On Jan 23, 2007, at 5:51 PM, wrote: > Z'ev , look at > http://www.goacupuncture.com/cgi-bin/ie/ProductList.pl? > CategoryID=10119 > > Millenia brand is the only commercial gold ones that I found when I > searched... > > Has anyone used these 24 K gold needles before? > > On 1/23/07, <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > Ami, > > Do you have a source for gold needles (for personal use)? > > > > > > > > On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:41 AM, amiacup wrote: > > > > > Hi All, > > > > > > I have been attending a japanese practitioner, Ikeda Masakazu > > > sensei's seminar where I learned how to use gold neeles. He uses > > > gold needles if the patient is really weak because they have > > > tonification property. When I touched the gold needle, I could > feel > > > the warmth the needle had. > > > I believe Ikeda sensei uses mostly single-use needles lately, but > > > some practitioners in Japan are still using re-use needles. I > think > > > the main reason is the quality of the needles. As there are good > > > practitioner, there are good crafstman to make needles. It is a > part > > > of the history of acupuncture and I am sorry the decision of CA > > > acupuncture board had made. > > > Ami Matsumto, L.Ac. > > > > > > --- > InChinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Med > icine%40>, > > " Christopher > > > Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler wrote: > > > > > > > > My malpractice insurance (American Acupuncture Council) requires > > > the use > > > > of single use needles. For me the expense of an autoclave makes > > > using > > > > single use needles cheaper and without the worry. > > > > > > > > At $65 a treatment, if I use 25 needles on a patient, even if > I use > > > > Seirins at almost .10 cents each, that is still only $2.50 in > > > needles. > > > > I can see no benefit to re-using needles. > > > > > > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > > > > Oasis Acupuncture > > > > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http:// > www.oasisacupuncture.com > > > > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > > > > Suite 215 > > > > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > > > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_ > Medicine%40> > > > > > [Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chine > se_Medicine%40>] > > On Behalf Of > > > Phil > > > > Rogers > > > > Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:35 AM > > > > > To:Chinese Medicine <Traditional_Chinese_Me > dicine%40> > > > > Single-use needles mandatory? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chris & All, > > > > > > > > I wrote: > > > > >> IMO, it is FAR more important to use STERILE SINGLE USE > needles > > > > (that are NOT re-used in another session) than to swab the skin. > > > Prion > > > > infection can withstand ASHING at 600 degrees centigrade! See: > > > > http://www.pnas. <http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf> > > > > org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf I have pleaded on several AP > > > > lists for a formal BAN by National Licensing Authorities on > the re- > > > use > > > > of > > > > acupuncture needles. IMO, no acupuncturist should attempt to > > > sterilise > > > > used needles for reuse. << > > > > > > > > Chris replied: > > > > > California passed a law last year mandating single-use of > > > needles. > > > > > Estimate was that even prior to that, something like 99% of > > > > > practitioners were doing that. > > > > > > > > I am delighted that California mandates that. > > > > > > > > However, IMO, ALL states/countries should ban needle re-use, at > > > least > > > > BETWEEN (or across) patients. Unfortunately, some countries have > > > NOT > > > > done so. > > > > > > > > Some AP colleagues argue that if CONVENTIONAL HOSPITALS/CLINICS > > > > may " sterilise and re-use " medical instruments, acupuncturists > > > should be > > > > > > > > allowed the same rights, i.e. to clean, " sterilise " and re-use > > > needles. > > > > > > > > IMO, this is a great pity. We will lose a public relations coup, > > > whereby > > > > we > > > > could say loud and clear to the public: " we will not take ANY > risk > > > of > > > > cross- > > > > contamination of our patients by re-using needles " . > > > > > > > > IMO, ALL AP Licensing bodies should enforce that principle, and > > > strike > > > > off > > > > any practitioner who is convicted of reusing needles between > > > patients. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: > > > > 1/23/2007 11:04 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Hi Z'ev, I got mine from a company in Tokyo. They have gold, silver, stainless needles as well as gold, silver, stainless tubes and they have good quality products. But there is a problem. When I ordered, I was told that they don't accept payment outside of Japan. So I had to ask my parents to pay and get products. It was a few years ago, they may change their policies now. You can try to e mail them. Tokyo You may also try Kenshin Trading who deal with Japanese products. I get Ondan Kyu(charcoal moxa) from them. www.Kenshin.com I saw the web page(Millenia). I forgot how much I paid but I looked website who sells gold needles in Japan and it was like, #1 needles 1 inch $32, #2 1 inch $38, #3 1 inch $45, etc.. But they are per 10 needles, not 100 needles. I don't know how this difference in price affects the quality of the products. Also, I want to mention that you need to know how to take care of gold needles when you get them. Because you can't autocrave nor boiling them to ruin the quality of the needles. You use deer skin to polish them. Before polishing, you may need to straighten the needle by fingers and sharpen them because they are so soft and easy to bend and the tip gets rough, too. There is a special stone to sharpen the tip (called Toishi) or you can use the frosted glass. You might want to learn or see someone does that first. I hope this information helps you. Ami Matsumoto, L.Ac. Chinese Medicine , " " <zrosenbe wrote: > > Ami, > Do you have a source for gold needles (for personal use)? > > > On Jan 23, 2007, at 10:41 AM, amiacup wrote: > > > Hi All, > > > > I have been attending a japanese practitioner, Ikeda Masakazu > > sensei's seminar where I learned how to use gold neeles. He uses > > gold needles if the patient is really weak because they have > > tonification property. When I touched the gold needle, I could feel > > the warmth the needle had. > > I believe Ikeda sensei uses mostly single-use needles lately, but > > some practitioners in Japan are still using re-use needles. I think > > the main reason is the quality of the needles. As there are good > > practitioner, there are good crafstman to make needles. It is a part > > of the history of acupuncture and I am sorry the decision of CA > > acupuncture board had made. > > Ami Matsumto, L.Ac. > > > > Chinese Medicine , " Christopher > > Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler@> wrote: > > > > > > My malpractice insurance (American Acupuncture Council) requires > > the use > > > of single use needles. For me the expense of an autoclave makes > > using > > > single use needles cheaper and without the worry. > > > > > > At $65 a treatment, if I use 25 needles on a patient, even if I use > > > Seirins at almost .10 cents each, that is still only $2.50 in > > needles. > > > I can see no benefit to re-using needles. > > > > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. > > > Oasis Acupuncture > > > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > > > 9832 N. Hayden Rd. > > > Suite 215 > > > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > > > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > > Phil > > > Rogers > > > Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:35 AM > > > Chinese Medicine > > > Single-use needles mandatory? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chris & All, > > > > > > I wrote: > > > >> IMO, it is FAR more important to use STERILE SINGLE USE needles > > > (that are NOT re-used in another session) than to swab the skin. > > Prion > > > infection can withstand ASHING at 600 degrees centigrade! See: > > > http://www.pnas. <http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf> > > > org/cgi/reprint/97/7/3418.pdf I have pleaded on several AP > > > lists for a formal BAN by National Licensing Authorities on the re- > > use > > > of > > > acupuncture needles. IMO, no acupuncturist should attempt to > > sterilise > > > used needles for reuse. << > > > > > > Chris replied: > > > > California passed a law last year mandating single-use of > > needles. > > > > Estimate was that even prior to that, something like 99% of > > > > practitioners were doing that. > > > > > > I am delighted that California mandates that. > > > > > > However, IMO, ALL states/countries should ban needle re-use, at > > least > > > BETWEEN (or across) patients. Unfortunately, some countries have > > NOT > > > done so. > > > > > > Some AP colleagues argue that if CONVENTIONAL HOSPITALS/CLINICS > > > may " sterilise and re-use " medical instruments, acupuncturists > > should be > > > > > > allowed the same rights, i.e. to clean, " sterilise " and re-use > > needles. > > > > > > IMO, this is a great pity. We will lose a public relations coup, > > whereby > > > we > > > could say loud and clear to the public: " we will not take ANY risk > > of > > > cross- > > > contamination of our patients by re-using needles " . > > > > > > IMO, ALL AP Licensing bodies should enforce that principle, and > > strike > > > off > > > any practitioner who is convicted of reusing needles between > > patients. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.8/648 - Release Date: > > > 1/23/2007 11:04 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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