Guest guest Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 Kelvin I describe all you say in my first book however the technique Tom described would be interesting if it would have rolled up the retinaculum. I have been rolling muscle fibers on a needle until they lock up for many years, the taping of it down however is a new idea for me and i am interested in the patient tolerance. Often when i do it (which i have never done in the hand) it can be painful. Tom in a carpal tunnel patient whooften has denervation supersensitivity you do not find this to be too painful? Please share you experiences. How many pt have you done? thanks Oakland, CA 94609 - acupuncturebeverlyhills Chinese Medicine Monday, June 19, 2006 5:13 PM Re: CTS research Those needles are in the abducto pollicis brevis, flexor pollicis brevis, opponensdigiti minimi, and flexor digiti minimi brevis which all attach to the retinaculum flexorum. Kelvin Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > I'd still think that at least A1 and B1 are located on the retinaculum: for > example, compare the picture on this page http://tinyurl.com/ne4ny with the > one I uploaded > > > ---- > > > 06/19/06 21:33:57 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: CTS research > > not if the picture is correct and its hard to know from the description > > > > We Made Changes > Your email is all new. > Learn More > Share Feedback > Recent Activity > 6New Members > 1New Files > Visit Your Group > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 exactly Kevin ---- acupuncturebeverlyhills 06/20/06 02:17:13 Chinese Medicine Re: CTS research Those needles are in the abducto pollicis brevis, flexor pollicis brevis, opponensdigiti minimi, and flexor digiti minimi brevis which all attach to the retinaculum flexorum. Kelvin We Made Changes Your email is all new. Learn More Share Feedback Recent Activity 6New Members 1New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 I found this article some three months ago I guess. The first patient I tried it on was extremely sensitive and could hardly stand AP at all. It didn't work on her either - and she had already had surgery. She was also a very serious case of CTS, and the palm of her hand felt very hard and looked red. But later on I tried it on another five patients and the results have been good: in every case one treatment gave an immediate effect. Not one of them complained it hurt too much- but they all indicated that at least one place of needle insertion hurt. I would say that that is also partly to blame on my needling skills: when I really very carefully insert the needle there are no complaints. When my technique is not perfect it hurts. I have been able to spread treatments several weeks apart, and still have a good effect: numbness is not completely gone, but patients say they don't feel bothered by it anymore. So there may be some pain, and one out of 6 patients indicated she could not stand it, and it also did not work on her. Regards, Tom. ---- 06/20/06 02:26:40 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: CTS research Kelvin I describe all you say in my first book however the technique Tom described would be interesting if it would have rolled up the retinaculum. I have been rolling muscle fibers on a needle until they lock up for many years, the taping of it down however is a new idea for me and i am interested in the patient tolerance. Often when i do it (which i have never done in the hand) it can be painful. Tom in a carpal tunnel patient whooften has denervation supersensitivity you do not find this to be too painful? Please share you experiences. How many pt have you done? thanks We Made Changes Your email is all new. Learn More Share Feedback Recent Activity 6New Members 1New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 Tom What gage needles do you use for this? also how severe were the cases you tried this on? thanks Oakland, CA 94609 - Tom Verhaeghe Chinese Medicine Monday, June 19, 2006 10:20 PM Re: Re: CTS research I found this article some three months ago I guess. The first patient I tried it on was extremely sensitive and could hardly stand AP at all. It didn't work on her either - and she had already had surgery. She was also a very serious case of CTS, and the palm of her hand felt very hard and looked red. But later on I tried it on another five patients and the results have been good: in every case one treatment gave an immediate effect. Not one of them complained it hurt too much- but they all indicated that at least one place of needle insertion hurt. I would say that that is also partly to blame on my needling skills: when I really very carefully insert the needle there are no complaints. When my technique is not perfect it hurts. I have been able to spread treatments several weeks apart, and still have a good effect: numbness is not completely gone, but patients say they don't feel bothered by it anymore. So there may be some pain, and one out of 6 patients indicated she could not stand it, and it also did not work on her. Regards, Tom. ---- 06/20/06 02:26:40 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: CTS research Kelvin I describe all you say in my first book however the technique Tom described would be interesting if it would have rolled up the retinaculum. I have been rolling muscle fibers on a needle until they lock up for many years, the taping of it down however is a new idea for me and i am interested in the patient tolerance. Often when i do it (which i have never done in the hand) it can be painful. Tom in a carpal tunnel patient whooften has denervation supersensitivity you do not find this to be too painful? Please share you experiences. How many pt have you done? thanks We Made Changes Your email is all new. Learn More Share Feedback Recent Activity 6New Members 1New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 I almost always use 30x40mm needles. As I said, my first patient I tried it on had very severe CTS. It did not work for her. The rest I'd call average: they woke up frequently at night, having to get up and shake their hand for some time. Discomfort also during the day. Enough discomfort to come for treatment, most of them had the problem for 6 months to over 1 year. They all preferred AP over surgery (although surgery for CTS is very succesful, as far as I know) That first patient of mine had very severe insomnia (not related to her CTS) and was terrified for a lot of things (including another operation, but also including AP). She was not an easy patient to deal with- if anyone knows of any painless techniques to handle serious cases of CTS like in this patient, please share what you know. thanks, Tom. ---- 06/20/06 07:39:07 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: CTS research Tom What gage needles do you use for this? also how severe were the cases you tried this on? thanks We Made Changes Your email is all new. Learn More Share Feedback Recent Activity 6New Members 1New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 You dont have nerve conductions on them? Oakland, CA 94609 - Tom Verhaeghe Chinese Medicine Monday, June 19, 2006 11:05 PM Re: Re: CTS research I almost always use 30x40mm needles. As I said, my first patient I tried it on had very severe CTS. It did not work for her. The rest I'd call average: they woke up frequently at night, having to get up and shake their hand for some time. Discomfort also during the day. Enough discomfort to come for treatment, most of them had the problem for 6 months to over 1 year. They all preferred AP over surgery (although surgery for CTS is very succesful, as far as I know) That first patient of mine had very severe insomnia (not related to her CTS) and was terrified for a lot of things (including another operation, but also including AP). She was not an easy patient to deal with- if anyone knows of any painless techniques to handle serious cases of CTS like in this patient, please share what you know. thanks, Tom. ---- 06/20/06 07:39:07 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: CTS research Tom What gage needles do you use for this? also how severe were the cases you tried this on? thanks We Made Changes Your email is all new. Learn More Share Feedback Recent Activity 6New Members 1New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 I usually use manual therapy to free the retinaculum. Often the wrist is unstable so i needle ligaments or refer to prolo to stabilize the dorsal aspect of the wrist. Last i use photonic stim over the tunnel. This work well most of the time.I always also treat all restricted areas, especially if needed at the cervical, thoracic outlet, and radial head. Oakland, CA 94609 - Tom Verhaeghe Chinese Medicine Monday, June 19, 2006 11:05 PM Re: Re: CTS research I almost always use 30x40mm needles. As I said, my first patient I tried it on had very severe CTS. It did not work for her. The rest I'd call average: they woke up frequently at night, having to get up and shake their hand for some time. Discomfort also during the day. Enough discomfort to come for treatment, most of them had the problem for 6 months to over 1 year. They all preferred AP over surgery (although surgery for CTS is very succesful, as far as I know) That first patient of mine had very severe insomnia (not related to her CTS) and was terrified for a lot of things (including another operation, but also including AP). She was not an easy patient to deal with- if anyone knows of any painless techniques to handle serious cases of CTS like in this patient, please share what you know. thanks, Tom. ---- 06/20/06 07:39:07 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: CTS research Tom What gage needles do you use for this? also how severe were the cases you tried this on? thanks We Made Changes Your email is all new. Learn More Share Feedback Recent Activity 6New Members 1New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2006 Report Share Posted June 20, 2006 hasn't happened, no. ---- 06/20/06 08:22:09 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: CTS research You dont have nerve conductions on them? We Made Changes Your email is all new. Learn More Share Feedback Recent Activity 6New Members 1New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Tom, I have CTS, especially in my left wrist, and I find acupuncture in that area quite painful. Do you induce the median nerve to fire with this treatment? That can be painful, too. I will try this treatment on myself, if I can do it. I wonder if my 32 or 34 gauge needles will be stiff enough. Thank you for sharing the protocol! The thing that helps me the most is wearing wrist braces at night and sleeping on my back. It seems I have some impingement around the plexus and trunk that adds to the CTS. I'm exploring various manual therapies from my neck to my hand to see what helps. Marian Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > hasn't happened, no. > > ---- > > > 06/20/06 08:22:09 > Chinese Medicine > Re: Re: CTS research > > You dont have nerve conductions on them? > > > > We Made Changes > Your email is all new. > Learn More > Share Feedback > Recent Activity > 6New Members > 1New Files > Visit Your Group > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Dear Marian, firing up the median nerve has not occurred with the patients I tried it on. I think you should be able to do the technique on yourself, but I think it will hurt more since you will only have one hand to work with. Taping the needles might also be a problem, although I have performed the technique also without taping. In Belgium, physical therapy does not have a good name for treating CTS. I was surprised to read that Alon uses manual techniques on the wrist (which techniques, Alon?). Techniques on the neck and thoracic outlet make more sense, I was taught- although they are often not enough to relieve the suffering. Is there no colleague in the neigbourhood whom you can ask to do the needling technique for you? Tom. ---- marianpblac 06/21/06 05:39:39 Chinese Medicine Re: CTS research Tom, I have CTS, especially in my left wrist, and I find acupuncture in that area quite painful. Do you induce the median nerve to fire with this treatment? That can be painful, too. I will try this treatment on myself, if I can do it. I wonder if my 32 or 34 gauge needles will be stiff enough. Thank you for sharing the protocol! The thing that helps me the most is wearing wrist braces at night and sleeping on my back. It seems I have some impingement around the plexus and trunk that adds to the CTS. I'm exploring various manual therapies from my neck to my hand to see what helps. Marian We Made Changes Your email is all new. Learn More Share Feedback Recent Activity 6New Members 1New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Tom The key for manual techniques is to drain edema, i almost only use functional indirect techniques. Then if the wrist is unstable the ligaments need to be treated. this process i think treat the cause many times. Oakland, CA 94609 - Tom Verhaeghe Chinese Medicine Tuesday, June 20, 2006 9:25 PM Re: Re: CTS research Dear Marian, firing up the median nerve has not occurred with the patients I tried it on. I think you should be able to do the technique on yourself, but I think it will hurt more since you will only have one hand to work with. Taping the needles might also be a problem, although I have performed the technique also without taping. In Belgium, physical therapy does not have a good name for treating CTS. I was surprised to read that Alon uses manual techniques on the wrist (which techniques, Alon?). Techniques on the neck and thoracic outlet make more sense, I was taught- although they are often not enough to relieve the suffering. Is there no colleague in the neigbourhood whom you can ask to do the needling technique for you? Tom. ---- marianpblac 06/21/06 05:39:39 Chinese Medicine Re: CTS research Tom, I have CTS, especially in my left wrist, and I find acupuncture in that area quite painful. Do you induce the median nerve to fire with this treatment? That can be painful, too. I will try this treatment on myself, if I can do it. I wonder if my 32 or 34 gauge needles will be stiff enough. Thank you for sharing the protocol! The thing that helps me the most is wearing wrist braces at night and sleeping on my back. It seems I have some impingement around the plexus and trunk that adds to the CTS. I'm exploring various manual therapies from my neck to my hand to see what helps. Marian We Made Changes Your email is all new. Learn More Share Feedback Recent Activity 6New Members 1New Files Visit Your Group Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Tom, I only just examined the picture with your description--yes, that would be hard to do myself. I have a hard time making time to needle myself let alone go to someone else--but this is important so I'll find someone. thanks, Marian Chinese Medicine , " Tom Verhaeghe " <tom.verhaeghe wrote: > > > > Dear Marian, > > firing up the median nerve has not occurred with the patients I tried it on. > I think you should be able to do the technique on yourself, but I think it > will hurt more since you will only have one hand to work with. Taping the > needles might also be a problem, although I have performed the technique > also without taping. > In Belgium, physical therapy does not have a good name for treating CTS. I > was surprised to read that Alon uses manual techniques on the wrist (which > techniques, Alon?). Techniques on the neck and thoracic outlet make more > sense, I was taught- although they are often not enough to relieve the > suffering. > Is there no colleague in the neigbourhood whom you can ask to do the > needling technique for you? > > Tom. > > > ---- > > marianpblac > 06/21/06 05:39:39 > Chinese Medicine > Re: CTS research > > Tom, > > I have CTS, especially in my left wrist, and I find acupuncture in > that area quite painful. Do you induce the median nerve to fire with > this treatment? That can be painful, too. I will try this treatment > on myself, if I can do it. I wonder if my 32 or 34 gauge needles > will be stiff enough. Thank you for sharing the protocol! > > The thing that helps me the most is wearing wrist braces at night > and sleeping on my back. It seems I have some impingement around the > plexus and trunk that adds to the CTS. I'm exploring various manual > therapies from my neck to my hand to see what helps. > > Marian > > We Made Changes > Your email is all new. > Learn More > Share Feedback > Recent Activity > 6New Members > 1New Files > Visit Your Group > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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