Guest guest Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the herbs, and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory! I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has any great ideas. Thanks, Ariel Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > > > I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to > promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take > anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this treatment. > I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like > symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish > liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a more > nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned that the > moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties. Unfortunately a > lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that liver qi > moved! > > I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at all. I > know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I think they > probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I understand > it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think > moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to > stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with her hip > treatment. > > Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory > properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan > lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...? > > Ariel > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Hi Ariel, It sounds like your patient is undergoing prolotherapy. A substance, often B12. is injected into the affected ligaments or tendons, which leads to local sterile inflammation. The localized inflammation triggers the deposition of new collagen. New collagen shrinks as it matures. The shrinking collagen tightens the ligament that was injected and makes it stronger. For a week after the injections the patient is not to have any anti-inflammatories.? I would not give the patient herbs and risk interfering with the process - and it's only for the week.? I have had it done and it is very effective.? In China, in a related way, they inject herbs or B12 into acupuncture points - this often irritates the acupuncture point and in effect continually stimulates it.? In NY state we are not allowed to inject but I have directed my Vet to inject acupuncture points on my dog with B12 - better for them than retaining needles. I would use acupuncture to move Qi while your patient is undergoing this therapy .. Mary Chamberlain, LAc. Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. <ariel Chinese Medicine Thu, Jun 25, 2009 6:53 pm anti-inflammatory I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this treatment. I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a more nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned that the moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties. Unfortunately a lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that liver qi moved! I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at all. I know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I think they probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I understand it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with her hip treatment. Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...? Ariel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . . On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > > > Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the > herbs, > and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory! > > I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has > any great ideas. > > Thanks, > Ariel > > Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > > > > > > I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to > > promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take > > anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this > treatment. > > I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like > > symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish > > liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a > more > > nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned > that the > > moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties. > Unfortunately a > > lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that > liver qi > > moved! > > > > I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at > all. I > > know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I > think they > > probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I > understand > > it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think > > moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to > > stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with > her hip > > treatment. > > > > Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory > > properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan > > lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...? > > > > Ariel > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 It would help to know what the injections are that she is getting. I'm not aware of an orthopedic injection " used to promote the healing of a ligament " (in that strictest sense of the phrase that you used.). (If there is, please educate me as I like to know those things.) Certainly cortisone/prednisone injections are often used to decrease local inflammation and swelling to alleviate pain...and in theory healing is thereby supposed to take place. But, I have seen too many patients after multiple cortisone injections who have suffered tissue damage/atrophy, and several who have then had resultant multiple surgeries to try and repair the cortisone-damaged area to no avail and end up developing CRPS... But I digress. If it is cortisone/prednisone that is being used, then likely the reason for not adding additional anti-inflammatories has to do with the fact that prednisone is in itself anti-inflammatory. However, in my opinion, it would be difficult to know what herb-drug interactions to research, and thereby identifying which herbs to avoid, without knowing what drug is being used. J ________ Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 www.RamonaAcupuncture.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 No worries with herbs even jiang huang, they are not strong enough to inhibit fibroblastic activation nor the inflammatory cascade. Been doing this for 20 years with people getting injected by prolo and now PRP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to cortisone according to a few websites. I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat clearing herbs would have such properties. I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a Western context- not always so easy! I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture to try and get back to where we were. .. wrote: > > > On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are > anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . . > > > On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > > > > > > > Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the > > herbs, > > and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory! > > > > I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has > > any great ideas. > > > > Thanks, > > Ariel > > > > Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > > > > > > > > > I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to > > > promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take > > > anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this > > treatment. > > > I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like > > > symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish > > > liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a > > more > > > nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned > > that the > > > moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties. > > Unfortunately a > > > lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that > > liver qi > > > moved! > > > > > > I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at > > all. I > > > know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I > > think they > > > probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I > > understand > > > it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think > > > moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to > > > stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with > > her hip > > > treatment. > > > > > > Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory > > > properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan > > > lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...? > > > > > > Ariel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Hi Joy, I believe she is undergoing prolotherapy with saline injections as Mary explained. I think the point is to cause a local inflammatory reaction so that the body begins the healing process in the area. She will undergo 3 to 6 series of injections spaced over a few months. Ariel Joy Keller wrote: > > > It would help to know what the injections are that she is getting. I'm not > aware of an orthopedic injection " used to promote the healing of a > ligament " > (in that strictest sense of the phrase that you used.). (If there is, > please > educate me as I like to know those things.) Certainly cortisone/prednisone > injections are often used to decrease local inflammation and swelling to > alleviate pain...and in theory healing is thereby supposed to take place. > > But, I have seen too many patients after multiple cortisone injections who > have suffered tissue damage/atrophy, and several who have then had > resultant > multiple surgeries to try and repair the cortisone-damaged area to no > avail > and end up developing CRPS... > > But I digress. If it is cortisone/prednisone that is being used, then > likely > the reason for not adding additional anti-inflammatories has to do > with the > fact that prednisone is in itself anti-inflammatory. > > However, in my opinion, it would be difficult to know what herb-drug > interactions to research, and thereby identifying which herbs to avoid, > without knowing what drug is being used. > > J > ________ > Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM > Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic > Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 > www.RamonaAcupuncture.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Thanks Ariel and Mary! I hadn't heard of saline being used that way so I will be sure to read up on it. I love to learn new things:-) off to the search engines I go... J On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. < ariel wrote: > Hi Joy, > > I believe she is undergoing prolotherapy with saline injections as Mary > [post snipped] > ________ Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 www.RamonaAcupuncture.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Prolotherapy > base mixture of Procaine, Dextrose and MB12 > injected to the bone at any injured attachment site > ligament, tendon. Ross - Joy Keller Chinese Medicine Friday, June 26, 2009 4:54 PM Re: anti-inflammatory Thanks Ariel and Mary! I hadn't heard of saline being used that way so I will be sure to read up on it. I love to learn new things:-) off to the search engines I go... J On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. < ariel wrote: > Hi Joy, > > I believe she is undergoing prolotherapy with saline injections as Mary > [post snipped] > ________ Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 www.RamonaAcupuncture.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 IMHO, saying an herb is anti-inflammatory is not that helpful. 1) Inflammation has many aspects and pathways (in western / functional medicine). Essentially anything that corrects the body's imbalances can be anti-inflammatory. For example, something that corrects Spleen qi deficiency can easily stop a inflammatory cascade. 2) We should not forget that inflammation can be either hot or cold from a CM perspective. Quite simply, when discussing inflammation, we cannot reduce it to just the typical red, swollen, hot etc. Internal inflammation, from a western / functional medical perspective, is a much more complex beast that includes many systems of the body. I would though like to hear what others think about this issue. Hope this helps, - Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. Friday, June 26, 2009 4:07 PM Chinese Medicine Re: anti-inflammatory My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to cortisone according to a few websites. I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat clearing herbs would have such properties. I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a Western context- not always so easy! I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture to try and get back to where we were. .. wrote: > > > On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are > anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . . > > > On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > > > > > > > Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the > > herbs, > > and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory! > > > > I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has > > any great ideas. > > > > Thanks, > > Ariel > > > > Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > > > > > > > > > I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to > > > promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take > > > anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this > > treatment. > > > I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like > > > symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish > > > liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a > > more > > > nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned > > that the > > > moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties. > > Unfortunately a > > > lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that > > liver qi > > > moved! > > > > > > I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at > > all. I > > > know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I > > think they > > > probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I > > understand > > > it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think > > > moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to > > > stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with > > her hip > > > treatment. > > > > > > Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory > > > properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan > > > lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...? > > > > > > Ariel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Interesting but acupuncture has also been shown to be anti-inflammatory. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:35:10 -0600 RE: anti-inflammatory IMHO, saying an herb is anti-inflammatory is not that helpful. 1) Inflammation has many aspects and pathways (in western / functional medicine). Essentially anything that corrects the body's imbalances can be anti-inflammatory. For example, something that corrects Spleen qi deficiency can easily stop a inflammatory cascade. 2) We should not forget that inflammation can be either hot or cold from a CM perspective. Quite simply, when discussing inflammation, we cannot reduce it to just the typical red, swollen, hot etc. Internal inflammation, from a western / functional medical perspective, is a much more complex beast that includes many systems of the body. I would though like to hear what others think about this issue. Hope this helps, - Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. Friday, June 26, 2009 4:07 PM Chinese Medicine Re: anti-inflammatory My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to cortisone according to a few websites. I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat clearing herbs would have such properties. I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a Western context- not always so easy! I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture to try and get back to where we were. .. wrote: > > > On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are > anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . . > > > On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > >> >> >> Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the >> herbs, >> and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory! >> >> I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has >> any great ideas. >> >> Thanks, >> Ariel >> >> Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: >>> >>> >>> I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to >>> promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take >>> anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this >> treatment. >>> I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like >>> symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish >>> liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a >> more >>> nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned >> that the >>> moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties. >> Unfortunately a >>> lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that >> liver qi >>> moved! >>> >>> I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at >> all. I >>> know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I >> think they >>> probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I >> understand >>> it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think >>> moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to >>> stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with >> her hip >>> treatment. >>> >>> Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory >>> properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan >>> lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...? >>> >>> Ariel >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Yes... I think that pretty much any type of therapy can be anti-inflammatory if it correct for the person / pattern. In addition, I could see how many types of therapy, including acupuncture, could be pro-inflammatory. What are your thoughts? - Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:49 PM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: anti-inflammatory Interesting but acupuncture has also been shown to be anti-inflammatory. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:35:10 -0600 RE: anti-inflammatory IMHO, saying an herb is anti-inflammatory is not that helpful. 1) Inflammation has many aspects and pathways (in western / functional medicine). Essentially anything that corrects the body's imbalances can be anti-inflammatory. For example, something that corrects Spleen qi deficiency can easily stop a inflammatory cascade. 2) We should not forget that inflammation can be either hot or cold from a CM perspective. Quite simply, when discussing inflammation, we cannot reduce it to just the typical red, swollen, hot etc. Internal inflammation, from a western / functional medical perspective, is a much more complex beast that includes many systems of the body. I would though like to hear what others think about this issue. Hope this helps, - Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. Friday, June 26, 2009 4:07 PM Chinese Medicine Re: anti-inflammatory My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to cortisone according to a few websites. I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat clearing herbs would have such properties. I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a Western context- not always so easy! I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture to try and get back to where we were. .. wrote: > > > On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are > anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . . > > > On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > >> >> >> Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the >> herbs, >> and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory! >> >> I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has >> any great ideas. >> >> Thanks, >> Ariel >> >> Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: >>> >>> >>> I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to >>> promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take >>> anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this >> treatment. >>> I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like >>> symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish >>> liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a >> more >>> nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned >> that the >>> moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties. >> Unfortunately a >>> lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that >> liver qi >>> moved! >>> >>> I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at >> all. I >>> know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I >> think they >>> probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I >> understand >>> it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think >>> moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to >>> stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with >> her hip >>> treatment. >>> >>> Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory >>> properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan >>> lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...? >>> >>> Ariel >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 I have yet to hear anyone say maybe let's wait during this period of time and let the patient have some relief over a difficult decision. Maybe this wait and the emotional relief is what is best. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:42:42 -0600 RE: anti-inflammatory Yes... I think that pretty much any type of therapy can be anti-inflammatory if it correct for the person / pattern. In addition, I could see how many types of therapy, including acupuncture, could be pro-inflammatory. What are your thoughts? - Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of mike Bowser Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:49 PM Chinese Traditional Medicine RE: anti-inflammatory Interesting but acupuncture has also been shown to be anti-inflammatory. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc Chinese Medicine Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:35:10 -0600 RE: anti-inflammatory IMHO, saying an herb is anti-inflammatory is not that helpful. 1) Inflammation has many aspects and pathways (in western / functional medicine). Essentially anything that corrects the body's imbalances can be anti-inflammatory. For example, something that corrects Spleen qi deficiency can easily stop a inflammatory cascade. 2) We should not forget that inflammation can be either hot or cold from a CM perspective. Quite simply, when discussing inflammation, we cannot reduce it to just the typical red, swollen, hot etc. Internal inflammation, from a western / functional medical perspective, is a much more complex beast that includes many systems of the body. I would though like to hear what others think about this issue. Hope this helps, - Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. Friday, June 26, 2009 4:07 PM Chinese Medicine Re: anti-inflammatory My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to cortisone according to a few websites. I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat clearing herbs would have such properties. I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a Western context- not always so easy! I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture to try and get back to where we were. .. wrote: > > > On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are > anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . . > > > On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > >> >> >> Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the >> herbs, >> and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory! >> >> I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has >> any great ideas. >> >> Thanks, >> Ariel >> >> Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: >>> >>> >>> I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to >>> promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take >>> anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this >> treatment. >>> I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like >>> symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish >>> liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a >> more >>> nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned >> that the >>> moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties. >> Unfortunately a >>> lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that >> liver qi >>> moved! >>> >>> I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at >> all. I >>> know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I >> think they >>> probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I >> understand >>> it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think >>> moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to >>> stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with >> her hip >>> treatment. >>> >>> Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory >>> properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan >>> lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...? >>> >>> Ariel >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Dear Gentlepeople and scholars, I think that when we are trying to determining whether an herb, procedure has anti-inflammatory properties we need to remember inflammation is a Western biomedical diagnostic term, and just as with other Western diagnostic conditions, needs to fulfill certain criteria to be considered within its definition. Western medical diagnosis defines inflammation as the presence of 4 criteria: pain, redness, swelling and heat. Period. So if you want to determine if a certain herb, formula or therapy such as acupuncture is anti-inflammatory, you need to see if it resolves these 4 symptoms. But be careful: IMO this question should only be asked for the edification of an inquisitive patient or a Western doctor. Why else should we bother? We have our own terminology and patterns! --- On Sat, 6/27/09, wrote: RE: anti-inflammatory Chinese Medicine Saturday, June 27, 2009, 4:42 PM Yes... I think that pretty much any type of therapy can be anti-inflammatory if it correct for the person / pattern. In addition, I could see how many types of therapy, including acupuncture, could be pro-inflammatory. What are your thoughts? - Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of mike Bowser Saturday, June 27, 2009 1:49 PM traditional_ chinese_medicine RE: anti-inflammatory Interesting but acupuncture has also been shown to be anti-inflammatory. Michael W. Bowser, DC, LAc @chinesemed icinedoc. com Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:35:10 -0600 RE: anti-inflammatory IMHO, saying an herb is anti-inflammatory is not that helpful. 1) Inflammation has many aspects and pathways (in western / functional medicine). Essentially anything that corrects the body's imbalances can be anti-inflammatory. For example, something that corrects Spleen qi deficiency can easily stop a inflammatory cascade. 2) We should not forget that inflammation can be either hot or cold from a CM perspective. Quite simply, when discussing inflammation, we cannot reduce it to just the typical red, swollen, hot etc. Internal inflammation, from a western / functional medical perspective, is a much more complex beast that includes many systems of the body. I would though like to hear what others think about this issue. Hope this helps, - Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine [Traditional_ Chinese_Medicine ] On Behalf Of Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. Friday, June 26, 2009 4:07 PM Re: anti-inflammatory My source: various sources that list pharmacological data on chinese herbs on the internet. Gan cao, shu di, ze xie, sheng di, shan yao and yin chen hao, among others, all list " anti-inflammatory " as western properties. Gan cao and shan yao are said to have properties similar to cortisone according to a few websites. I obviously didn't look up every tonic herb... I just thought that it was interesting that some tonic herbs have anti-inflammatory properties since I was sort of assuming that only moving or heavy duty heat clearing herbs would have such properties. I'm just trying to put what I know about herbs in the TCM sense into a Western context- not always so easy! I told my patient not to take any herbs. We will do extra acupuncture to try and get back to where we were. .. wrote: > > > On what sources do you base your assertion that 'nourishing' herbs are > anti-inflammatory? That's a pretty broad generalization . . . > > > On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:52 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: > >> >> >> Well, now I looked up the pharmacological effects of some of the >> herbs, >> and it seems like many nourishing herbs are anti-inflammatory! >> >> I guess maybe I should just go with no herbs for now unless anyone has >> any great ideas. >> >> Thanks, >> Ariel >> >> Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. wrote: >>> >>> >>> I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to >>> promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take >>> anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this >> treatment. >>> I am treating her primarily for Raynaud's and fibromyalgia like >>> symptoms. I have been using herbs to move liver qi/ blood, nourish >>> liver blood/ yin and support spleen function. I switched her to a >> more >>> nourishing formula with no moving herbs because I was concerned >> that the >>> moving herbs could have anti-inflammatory properties. >> Unfortunately a >>> lot of her symptoms are coming back now- she really needs that >> liver qi >>> moved! >>> >>> I am wondering if moving herbs are actually anti-inflammatory at >> all. I >>> know that they promote healing and reduce inflammation, but I >> think they >>> probably do this in a very different way than NSAIDS. As I >> understand >>> it, NSAIDS stop the inflammatory process all together. I would think >>> moving herbs would just speed up the healing process as opposed to >>> stopping the inflammatory process, which shouldn't conflict with >> her hip >>> treatment. >>> >>> Any thoughts? Do any herbs have straight out anti-inflammatory >>> properties. Do you think it is safe to use herbs like chai hu, chuan >>> lian zi, dan shen, xiang fu, yin chen hao, zhi mu...? >>> >>> Ariel >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine > Pacific College of Oriental Medicine > San Diego, Ca. 92122 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 We were taught prolotherapy by a MD and there are many injectable substances that can be used. true the stock option is the dextrose,B12,procaine and those substances without peservative in the bottles, but a more therapies with other injectables were taught. I had not heard of the saline but sure. The teacher taught different levels of repair, rates of healing dependent on the injections used. Sincerely, Patricia Jordan DVM,CVA,CTCVM & Herbology Chinese Medicine courtenayhealing Sat, 27 Jun 2009 01:16:24 -0700 Re: anti-inflammatory Prolotherapy > base mixture of Procaine, Dextrose and MB12 > injected to the bone at any injured attachment site > ligament, tendon. Ross - Joy Keller Chinese Medicine Friday, June 26, 2009 4:54 PM Re: anti-inflammatory Thanks Ariel and Mary! I hadn't heard of saline being used that way so I will be sure to read up on it. I love to learn new things:-) off to the search engines I go... J On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. < ariel wrote: > Hi Joy, > > I believe she is undergoing prolotherapy with saline injections as Mary > [post snipped] > ________ Joy Keller, LAc, Dipl.OM Ramona Acupuncture & Integrative Medicine Clinic Phone: (760) 654-1040 Fax: (760) 654-4019 www.RamonaAcupuncture.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Chinese Medicine , " Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. " <ariel wrote: > > I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to > promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take > anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this treatment. I wonder if the fact that this patient cannot take anything anti-inflammatory is related to the anti-inflammatory properties of the drug(s) or if that is related to the side effects of this class of drugs, in particular the anti-thrombotic effects. An hemorrhage would certainly interfere negatively with the procedure, while I cannot imagine any negative influence of an anti-inflammatory effect. Maybe further information on this from the doctor caring for this patient wouyld be helpful. Just my thoughts. Giovanna Franconi, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Jason I have been using herbs w prolo therapy for 20 years. They do not affect outcome do not reduce the swelling or the duration of soreness. Unlike nsaids which stop it cold. I have seen this in hundreds of patients. This is not some animal studies this is real life. None of the slandered herbs we use in daily practice are strong enough to suppress the inflammatory cascade resulting from prolo. That is also true for fish oil. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 there are many solutions used in prolotherapy, P2G mixture of phenol, dextrose and glycerine, morrhuate, pumice, Magsul, and more 400 29th St. Suite 419 Oakland Ca 94609 alonmarcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Hi Giovanna, It is not that the anti-inflamatory property of the drugs is negative - it is related to how the protocol works.? As I understand it Prolotherapy sets up a sterile inflammatory response and you don't want to stop or inhibit that response.? There are many websites that discuss how this works? - I think that you would find them helpful. Mary Chamberlain, LAc. Chinese Medicine , " Ariel Solomon, L.Ac. " <ariel wrote: > > I have a patient who is getting a series of injections in her hip to > promote the healing of a ligament. Apparently, she can not take > anything that is anti-inflammatory while she is having this treatment. I wonder if the fact that this patient cannot take anything anti-inflammatory is related to the anti-inflammatory properties of the drug(s) or if that is related to the side effects of this class of drugs, in particular the anti-thrombotic effects. An hemorrhage would certainly interfere negatively with the procedure, while I cannot imagine any negative influence of an anti-inflammatory effect. Maybe further information on this from the doctor caring for this patient wouyld be helpful. Just my thoughts. Giovanna Franconi, MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Ross, Thanks for filling in what prolotherapy is. I was just about to figure it out by searching google. I want to chime in that Chinese medicine has no such concept as inflammation. Therefore, herbals cannot be classified by this concept, nor the treatment method. Jason is right about the fact that local inflammation is not necessarily heat in nature (can be cold). Borrowing/learning such concept(s) from western medicine is fine but it is not going to help us at the end of the day. In fact, we can only treat our patients with herbs, acu. not injection or using western drugs. Our focus should stick to clinical efficacy and it it all that matters for Chinese medicine. SUNG, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Hi Yuk-ming " I think that I was the one who originally brought up the concept of prolotherapy - I apologize if I were vague. .... " Hi Ariel, It sounds like your patient is undergoing prolotherapy. A substance, often B12. is injected into the affected ligaments or tendons, which leads to local sterile inflammation. The localized inflammation triggers the deposition of new collagen. New collagen shrinks as it matures. The shrinking collagen tightens the ligament that was injected and makes it stronger. For a week after the injections the patient is not to have any anti-inflammatories. " However, I think that Ariel should respect what the patient has chosen to do.? Prolotherapy is expensive and usually not covered by insurance.? Perhaps it would be a good idea to consult with the patient's doctor who is doing the procedure - if there is any question, waiting a week to reintroduce herbs? should not be a big problem.??? I had the procedure several times and it was very effective.? However the doctor was 4 hours away and one time on the return trip I experienced the most severe migraine and I had to take medication in order to drive.? That time? I felt no benefit from the procedure. It seems to be the nature of today's patient that they are exploring many paths and I feel that we should be supportive? - just as we are when a patient is going through chemotherapy - which we might not approve of.? Sometimes convincing them to trust in Oriental Medicine exclusively is an ongoing process. You said that we cannot inject patients - I think that there are a few states where acupuncturists can inject both B12 and herbs into acupuncture points - I think that New Mexico is one of them and I would love to hear from practitioners doing this. Mary Chamberlain sxm2649 <sxm2649 Chinese Medicine Mon, Jun 29, 2009 11:06 am Re: anti-inflammatory Ross, Thanks for filling in what prolotherapy is. I was just about to figure it out by searching google. I want to chime in that Chinese medicine has no such concept as inflammation. Therefore, herbals cannot be classified by this concept, nor the treatment method. Jason is right about the fact that local inflammation is not necessarily heat in nature (can be cold). Borrowing/learning such concept(s) from western medicine is fine but it is not going to help us at the end of the day. In fact, we can only treat our patients with herbs, acu. not injection or using western drugs. Our focus should stick to clinical efficacy and it it all that matters for Chinese medicine. SUNG, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Giovanna Not at all, its all about inhibiting the inflammatory cascade which is what you try to use to rebuild ligamentous the tendinous tissues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 Y, This is not correct. Western medicine has much wider definition when talking about internal inflammation. Inflammation can be a cold pattern in CM. -Jason Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of yehuda frischman Sunday, June 28, 2009 12:38 AM Western medical diagnosis defines inflammation as the presence of 4 criteria: pain, redness, swelling and heat. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2009 Report Share Posted June 29, 2009 I have been following this discussion for the last few days and thought i would throw opinion into the mix. Inflammation is a portion of TCM both in its modern use as well as classical use. To presume that heat is not inflammation is simply asigning a different quality to heat. Of course, heat can be many things, as can swelling and soreness, but any good cm practitioner will assign a heat presentation as an inflammatory condition. In consideration of the historical aspect, one can also cite other ancient medicines: Since antiquity (and to every medical student), the defining clinical features of inflammation have been known in Latin as rubor (redness), calor (warmth), tumor (swelling) and dolor (pain). These hallmarks of inflammation were first described by Celsus -- Aulus (Aurelius) Cornelius, a Roman physician and medical writer, who lived from about 30 B.C. to 45 A.D. " Regards, Tymothy > > Ross, Thanks for filling in what prolotherapy is. I was just about to figure it out by searching google. I want to chime in that Chinese medicine has no such concept as inflammation. Therefore, herbals cannot be classified by this concept, nor the treatment method. > > Jason is right about the fact that local inflammation is not necessarily heat in nature (can be cold). Borrowing/learning such concept(s) from western medicine is fine but it is not going to help us at the end of the day. In fact, we can only treat our patients with herbs, acu. not injection or using western drugs. Our focus should stick to clinical efficacy and it it all that matters for Chinese medicine. > > SUNG, Yuk-ming > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2009 Report Share Posted June 30, 2009 Hi Mary, You post are very clear and informative. It is I who did not follow all the posts here, my sincere apology. Thank you for telling me that some states allow CMP to do injection as it is prohibited by law in HK. My consideration of prolotherapy is what is the best from the patient's point of view. If prolotherapy can fix the problem, why not. Unfortunately, there are tricks. Short term results bring up long term and underlying side-effect issues. When the magic of antibiotics and cortisones fades out and surgery is not an option, they will come to seek the 'professional opinion' of humble Chinese medicine practitioner. The application of Chinese medicine can definitely make the wound heal quicker because several treatment methods involved. SUNG, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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