Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Alon Does that also mean high-velocity,low-amplitude thrust manipulation. Ross Ralph Dr.TCM, 4th yr Osteopathic student - Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 4:36 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Yehuda By the way i use full scope osteopathy. That includes CST. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:01 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, experience and skill as a clinician. I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years. Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt dissolve and disappear. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone? Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Thank you all for your discussions and input re:my knee and loose floating body part. I will continue to treat this problem using a variety of techniques - qigong, exercise, acupuncture, herbs, tuina and even western medicine. So far, my knee is feeling stronger altho it continues to randomly lock up, even on flat surfaces. I will do waht I can to prevent further degeneration/problems and I thank you once again for your help in this situation. with warm regards, susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 I have not fount it necessary to use HVLA for almost 10 yr. with functional, stiles, and muscle energy i can do the same with out any load on ligaments. Oakland, CA 94609 - Ross Ralph Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 12:54 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon Does that also mean high-velocity,low-amplitude thrust manipulation. Ross Ralph Dr.TCM, 4th yr Osteopathic student - Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 4:36 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Yehuda By the way i use full scope osteopathy. That includes CST. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:01 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, experience and skill as a clinician. I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years. Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt dissolve and disappear. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone? Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 I hesitate to post because of all the rules surrounding the cutting and pasting but I would like to say I have seen many cases such as these resolved with Dr. Les Feinberg's work, NMT or Neuromodulation technique. He has devised pathways that are designed to remove the confusion in the body's autonomic nervous system which remove blockages to the body's awareness of optimum health. One of his pathways specifically addresses this issue. He advertises in Acupuncture Today as some of you might be wondering where you saw the reference to his work. though obviously not TCM in nature, his method does successfully address this issue and many other previously thought unresolvable issues such as cavitations in the mouth. Cavitations are frequently the culprit in individuals with chronic unresovable health problems. Cavitations involve deep pockets of infection in the bone in the mandible or maxilla which do not show up neccessarily on x-ray, previously treated only with surgery and ozone. I have seen some of the cavitats (imaging studies) and the statistics in the ongoing study. The work is miraculous. Regards, Clarissa - rossana_lowgren Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 2:08 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Hi there The modality is a mixture of chinese, middle eastern, indian and western knowledge - compiled by my teacher. Clients are treated by opening their energetic channels and removing blockages, allowing the body to heal itself. Blockages can be held in the meridians, strange flows, chakras or pranic fields. While the main priority is to get people out of pain, we view illness more as a reflection of the the client's spirit and how they view the world. Inner Alchemy Vs Outer Alchemy. While the wings I spoke of were not loose bodies, using various non invasive hand techniques, hard substances in the body can be broken up or dissolved. When I queried " the wings " example, my teacher surmised that it was " hardened or blocked qi " and that " qi responds best to (other) qi " . (I might add that my teacher, as a practitioner, is solidly booked 3 months in advance.) I seem to recall on this occassion the LV and GB channels were blocked which was directly related to the client's state of mind. Please do not interpret this discussion as " this is THE answer " , I really just wanted to respond to Yehuda's comment that there are indeed modalities alive and well that deal with this sort of problem effectively - but are of course beyond the scope of discussion for this community. I am very impressed with what I have witnessed (and fixed myself) as I am sure the acupuncturists and practitioners of TCM are with the healing modalities that they practice and I am grateful for the wisdom shared on this board. As St Augustine pointed out " there are no such things as miracles, only unknown laws. " Warm regards Rossana Chinese Medicine , mmilotay wrote: > > Rossana, > > Please tell us more about the techniques used by your teacher. > > - Mark > > Quoting rossana_lowgren <rossana: > > As a student of one such technique I can vouch for Yehuda's comments > > from first hand experience. I have seen what seemed to be like wings > > on knees disappear at the experienced hands of my teacher. > > Cheers > > Rossana > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 By the way where are you going to DO school? Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 7:56 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? I have not fount it necessary to use HVLA for almost 10 yr. with functional, stiles, and muscle energy i can do the same with out any load on ligaments. Oakland, CA 94609 - Ross Ralph Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 12:54 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon Does that also mean high-velocity,low-amplitude thrust manipulation. Ross Ralph Dr.TCM, 4th yr Osteopathic student - Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 4:36 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Yehuda By the way i use full scope osteopathy. That includes CST. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:01 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, experience and skill as a clinician. I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years. Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt dissolve and disappear. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone? Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2006 Report Share Posted April 29, 2006 Canadian College of Osteopathy, Vancouver Ross Ralph Dr.TCM - Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 10:26 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? By the way where are you going to DO school? Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 7:56 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? I have not fount it necessary to use HVLA for almost 10 yr. with functional, stiles, and muscle energy i can do the same with out any load on ligaments. Oakland, CA 94609 - Ross Ralph Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 12:54 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon Does that also mean high-velocity,low-amplitude thrust manipulation. Ross Ralph Dr.TCM, 4th yr Osteopathic student - Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 4:36 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Yehuda By the way i use full scope osteopathy. That includes CST. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:01 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, experience and skill as a clinician. I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years. Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt dissolve and disappear. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone? Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 Is it a resident program or the monthly meeting one? How do you like it Oakland, CA 94609 - Ross Ralph Chinese Medicine Saturday, April 29, 2006 3:35 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Canadian College of Osteopathy, Vancouver Ross Ralph Dr.TCM - Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 10:26 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? By the way where are you going to DO school? Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 7:56 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? I have not fount it necessary to use HVLA for almost 10 yr. with functional, stiles, and muscle energy i can do the same with out any load on ligaments. Oakland, CA 94609 - Ross Ralph Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 12:54 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon Does that also mean high-velocity,low-amplitude thrust manipulation. Ross Ralph Dr.TCM, 4th yr Osteopathic student - Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 4:36 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Yehuda By the way i use full scope osteopathy. That includes CST. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:01 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, experience and skill as a clinician. I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years. Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt dissolve and disappear. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone? Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. 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Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 CCO is a Postgraduate program regulated by the University of Wales: 5 yrs + 2 yrs for a thesis, we meet 5 and sometimes 6 days /monthly. Osteopathy has change my life and practise and as you know integrates well with TCM. Ross Ralph Dr.TCM CCO has 9 schools 4 Canada, 3 in Europe and 1 in Argentina. Plus A full time program in Montreal. - Chinese Medicine Sunday, April 30, 2006 9:23 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Is it a resident program or the monthly meeting one? How do you like it Oakland, CA 94609 - Ross Ralph Chinese Medicine Saturday, April 29, 2006 3:35 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Canadian College of Osteopathy, Vancouver Ross Ralph Dr.TCM - Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 10:26 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? By the way where are you going to DO school? Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 7:56 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? I have not fount it necessary to use HVLA for almost 10 yr. with functional, stiles, and muscle energy i can do the same with out any load on ligaments. Oakland, CA 94609 - Ross Ralph Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 12:54 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon Does that also mean high-velocity,low-amplitude thrust manipulation. Ross Ralph Dr.TCM, 4th yr Osteopathic student - Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 4:36 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Yehuda By the way i use full scope osteopathy. That includes CST. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:01 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, experience and skill as a clinician. I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years. Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt dissolve and disappear. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone? Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2006 Report Share Posted May 1, 2006 OMM is great Oakland, CA 94609 - Ross Ralph Chinese Medicine Sunday, April 30, 2006 3:56 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? CCO is a Postgraduate program regulated by the University of Wales: 5 yrs + 2 yrs for a thesis, we meet 5 and sometimes 6 days /monthly. Osteopathy has change my life and practise and as you know integrates well with TCM. Ross Ralph Dr.TCM CCO has 9 schools 4 Canada, 3 in Europe and 1 in Argentina. Plus A full time program in Montreal. - Chinese Medicine Sunday, April 30, 2006 9:23 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Is it a resident program or the monthly meeting one? How do you like it Oakland, CA 94609 - Ross Ralph Chinese Medicine Saturday, April 29, 2006 3:35 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Canadian College of Osteopathy, Vancouver Ross Ralph Dr.TCM - Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 10:26 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? By the way where are you going to DO school? Oakland, CA 94609 - Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 7:56 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? I have not fount it necessary to use HVLA for almost 10 yr. with functional, stiles, and muscle energy i can do the same with out any load on ligaments. Oakland, CA 94609 - Ross Ralph Chinese Medicine Friday, April 28, 2006 12:54 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon Does that also mean high-velocity,low-amplitude thrust manipulation. Ross Ralph Dr.TCM, 4th yr Osteopathic student - Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 4:36 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Yehuda By the way i use full scope osteopathy. That includes CST. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:01 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, experience and skill as a clinician. I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years. Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt dissolve and disappear. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone? Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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