loose floating body in knee?

[Guest guest]

Greetings all,

 

I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body

part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via

surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different

approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that

would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and

thus avoiding another surgery.

 

I will appreciate any and all assistance.

 

thanks.

 

susan froehlich, lac

hood river, or usa

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Susan,

 

Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now

first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our

wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously

unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But

first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is

there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or

cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive

that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with

the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved.

Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and

CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work

bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am

I trying to be pedantic or patronizing.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

SusFro wrote:

Greetings all,

 

I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body

part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via

surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different

approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that

would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and

thus avoiding another surgery.

 

I will appreciate any and all assistance.

 

thanks.

 

susan froehlich, lac

hood river, or usa

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Greetings,

 

No need to be apologizing - but of course I have been using TCM, herbs

-internal and external - acupuncture and tuina. This has been on an as needed

basis,

so I wasn't as good about the preventative part in terms of using

herbs/acupuncture when it was doing well.

 

What I am curious about is if there is a formula or more, about dissolving a

loose floating body part in the knee. Currently, western docs will tell you

that the only way to take care of this is through surgery - I want to do it

another way if possible.

This is a new occurrence on an already bad knee.(Previous ACL replacement,

and med./lat, partial menisectomy- degeneration noted on both surgeries). As in

the past, I have already been using acupuncture - self given and by another

practitioner - along with internal formulas of Yunnan biao for the swelling,

yan hu suo for pain and topical formulas of dit dat jow, yunnan biao and chinese

trauma oil from people's herbs, along with moxa and ROM exercise.

 

The day before all of this happened, I went downhill skiing in sticky snow. A

great deal of resistence. This most likely aggravated my compromised knee -

the next day, my knee gave out about 5 times in the course of 2 hours, walking

on flat surfaces and then the last time, it locked - unable to straighten it

and very painful. Sharp pain. I tried to adjust my patella and other knee

parts, and finally it unlocked. This is the pattern- very inconsistent locking,

and a feeling that something is stuck as my knee cannot be straight until the

" loose floating body part " becomes unlodged. This occurs randomly throughout the

day - maybe 1x an hour, sometimes more sometimes less, lasting about 5-20

minutes. When it happens, my leg also buckles and the sharp pain radiates

throughout the leg. My knee is swollen, no discoloration, little heat. Feels

better

with warmth. I tend to be pretty balanced, I am 51 y.o. and may lean towards a

bit of yin xu, sp qi xu. Pulses tend to be towrads the thin and thready side.

 

So, does anyone have an idea or two about dissolving this?

If you do, I would be very appreciative.

I thank you for your help.

 

Regards,

 

susan froehlich, lac

hood river, or usa

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM

will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than

TCM can help.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Dear Susan,

 

Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now

first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our

wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously

unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But

first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is

there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or

cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive

that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with

the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved.

Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and

CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work

bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am

I trying to be pedantic or patronizing.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

SusFro wrote:

Greetings all,

 

I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body

part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via

surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a

different

approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that

would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee

and

thus avoiding another surgery.

 

I will appreciate any and all assistance.

 

thanks.

 

susan froehlich, lac

hood river, or usa

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing that

has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a time,

at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it

is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive enzymes, I

dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them,

then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its

smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I

would get.

 

regards

 

stephen

 

 

-------------

This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net

[Guest guest]

Most loose bodies are not visible on Xray

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

stephenmacallan

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:21 PM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Hi,

I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing that

has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a time,

at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it

is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive enzymes, I

dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them,

then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its

smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I

would get.

 

regards

 

stephen

 

 

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[Guest guest]

The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it

is 75% fully functional.

>>>>>

That is also very uncommon with a loose body. Usually there is attacks and as

soon as the loose body moves symptoms decrease.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

stephenmacallan

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:21 PM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Hi,

I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing that

has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a time,

at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it

is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive enzymes, I

dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them,

then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its

smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I

would get.

 

regards

 

stephen

 

 

-------------

This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net

 

 

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

 

and adjust

accordingly.

 

 

Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

necessary.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

stephenmacallan wrote:

> Hi,

> I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing that

> has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a time,

> at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it

> is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive enzymes, I

> dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them,

> then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its

> smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I

> would get.

 

Hi Stephen!

 

You took the enzymes by mouth, or injected into the knee?

 

Regards,

 

Pete

[Guest guest]

Manual manipulation hasn't beeen mentioned yet in the treatment of loose

bodies.

 

A good manual therapist (and one or two assistants to help stabilize the

joint) may be able to unlock the joint and have the loose body absorbed.

Painful moment, but if it works it's worth it.

 

Tom.

----

 

 

04/26/06 01:47:37

Chinese Medicine

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it

is 75% fully functional.

>>>>>

That is also very uncommon with a loose body. Usually there is attacks and

as soon as the loose body moves symptoms decrease.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination

of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with

oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a

difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it

causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's

attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies

which I suggest aid this process, IMHO.

 

<alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee

locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose

bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Dear Susan,

 

Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now

first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our

wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously

unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But

first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is

there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or

cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive

that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with

the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved.

Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and

CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work

bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am

I trying to be pedantic or patronizing.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

SusFro wrote:

Greetings all,

 

I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body

part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via

surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a

different

approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that

would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee

and

thus avoiding another surgery.

 

I will appreciate any and all assistance.

 

thanks.

 

susan froehlich, lac

hood river, or usa

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Susan,

 

I kind of get the sense that you have been using TCM therapies but thinking

with a Western mentality. I will explain and offer some suggestions below:

 

 

 

SusFro wrote:

Greetings,

 

No need to be apologizing - but of course I have been using TCM, herbs

-internal and external - acupuncture and tuina. This has been on an as needed

basis,

so I wasn't as good about the preventative part in terms of using

herbs/acupuncture when it was doing well.

 

What I am curious about is if there is a formula or more, about dissolving a

loose floating body part in the knee. Currently, western docs will tell you

that the only way to take care of this is through surgery - I want to do it

another way if possible.

This is a new occurrence on an already bad knee.(Previous ACL replacement,

and med./lat, partial menisectomy- degeneration noted on both surgeries). As in

the past, I have already been using acupuncture - self given and by another

practitioner - along with internal formulas of Yunnan biao for the swelling,

yan hu suo for pain and topical formulas of dit dat jow, yunnan biao and chinese

trauma oil from people's herbs, along with moxa and ROM exercise.

 

 

 

All very intelligent, but not focused enough to resolve the loose tissue and

eliminate the swelling. Also what herbal formulas were you taking internally?

 

 

 

The day before all of this happened, I went downhill skiing in sticky snow. A

great deal of resistence. This most likely aggravated my compromised knee -

the next day, my knee gave out about 5 times in the course of 2 hours, walking

on flat surfaces and then the last time, it locked - unable to straighten it

and very painful. Sharp pain. I tried to adjust my patella and other knee

parts, and finally it unlocked. This is the pattern- very inconsistent locking,

and a feeling that something is stuck as my knee cannot be straight until the

" loose floating body part " becomes unlodged. This occurs randomly throughout the

day - maybe 1x an hour, sometimes more sometimes less, lasting about 5-20

minutes. When it happens, my leg also buckles and the sharp pain radiates

throughout the leg. My knee is swollen, no discoloration, little heat. Feels

better

with warmth. I tend to be pretty balanced, I am 51 y.o. and may lean towards a

bit of yin xu, sp qi xu. Pulses tend to be towrads the thin and thready side.

 

What does your tongue look like? Do you also have low back pain? Is the knee

swelling constant? Do you like hot or cold weather?

 

 

So, does anyone have an idea or two about dissolving this?

If you do, I would be very appreciative.

I thank you for your help.

 

Regards,

 

susan froehlich, lac

hood river, or usa

 

 

 

If I were in your place, I would start off with a formula like Du Huo Ji Sheng

Tang, which addresses wind-damp bi in the lower jiao, as well as augmenting qi

and blood xu. I would modify it by adding herbs to nourish yin if that indeed

is an issue, choose huai niu xi which is the tonifying form of niu xi and

perhaps increase the dose to up to 15g, I would also consider adding herbs such

as song Jie, Wei Ling Xian, gu sui bu and Qin Jiao.

 

That should be a good start.

 

Hope that you feel better!

 

Yehuda

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Honestly, if I had the money or insurance, I would have the thing taken out.

Use the enzymes to heal from the surgery. Then get on with my life. This

kind of surgery is fairly simple and of great use.

 

I would personally switch from a digestive enzyme to a more specific

anti-inflammatory enzyme formula like Vitalzyme or Neprinol.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Chris

 

 

 

In a message dated 4/26/2006 2:01:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

stephenmacallan writes:

 

Hi,

this one was - looked like a marble, medic said it had broken off from my

tib or fib ( cant remember which) he pointed to a cavity that corresponded.

From an old football injury 40 years ago.

 

stephen

 

 

> Most loose bodies are not visible on Xray

>

>

>

> 400 29th St. #419

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> stephenmacallan

> Chinese Medicine

> Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:21 PM

> Re: loose floating body in knee?

>

>

> Hi,

> I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing

> that

> has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a

> time,

> at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months,

now

> it

> is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive

> enzymes, I

> dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish

them,

>

> then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect

its

>

> smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation

I

> would get.

>

> regards

>

> stephen

>

>

> -------------

> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net

>

>

> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at

Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can

immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation

can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the

patient symptom free.

With good therapy one can deal with symptoms.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic

combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy,

together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture

can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or

accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the

body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The

therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO.

 

<alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee

locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose

bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help.

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Dear Susan,

 

Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only

now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our

wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously

unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But

first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is

there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or

cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive

that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with

the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved.

Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and

CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work

bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am

I trying to be pedantic or patronizing.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

SusFro wrote:

Greetings all,

 

I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body

part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via

surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a

different

approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that

would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee

and

thus avoiding another surgery.

 

I will appreciate any and all assistance.

 

thanks.

 

susan froehlich, lac

hood river, or usa

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi,

took them by mouth.

 

stephen

 

Quoting petetheisen <petetheisen:

 

> stephenmacallan wrote:

> > Hi,

> > I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing

> that

> > has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a

> time,

> > at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now

> it

> > is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive

> enzymes, I

> > dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them,

>

> > then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its

>

> > smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I

> > would get.

>

> Hi Stephen!

>

> You took the enzymes by mouth, or injected into the knee?

>

> Regards,

>

> Pete

>

>

> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

this one was - looked like a marble, medic said it had broken off from my

tib or fib ( cant remember which) he pointed to a cavity that corresponded.

From an old football injury 40 years ago.

 

stephen

 

 

> Most loose bodies are not visible on Xray

>

>

>

>

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> -

> stephenmacallan

> Chinese Medicine

> Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:21 PM

> Re: loose floating body in knee?

>

>

> Hi,

> I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing

> that

> has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a

> time,

> at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now

> it

> is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive

> enzymes, I

> dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them,

>

> then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its

>

> smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I

> would get.

>

> regards

>

> stephen

>

>

> -------------

> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net

>

>

> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

that would mean that is it not cartilage but is calcified. I think the teck is

exaggerating a small marble in the knee would completely block motion

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

Musiclear

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:37 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

 

Honestly, if I had the money or insurance, I would have the thing taken out.

Use the enzymes to heal from the surgery. Then get on with my life. This

kind of surgery is fairly simple and of great use.

 

I would personally switch from a digestive enzyme to a more specific

anti-inflammatory enzyme formula like Vitalzyme or Neprinol.

 

Your mileage may vary,

 

Chris

 

 

 

In a message dated 4/26/2006 2:01:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

stephenmacallan writes:

 

Hi,

this one was - looked like a marble, medic said it had broken off from my

tib or fib ( cant remember which) he pointed to a cavity that corresponded.

From an old football injury 40 years ago.

 

stephen

 

 

> Most loose bodies are not visible on Xray

>

>

>

> 400 29th St. #419

> Oakland, CA 94609

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> stephenmacallan

> Chinese Medicine

> Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:21 PM

> Re: loose floating body in knee?

>

>

> Hi,

> I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing

> that

> has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a

> time,

> at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months,

now

> it

> is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive

> enzymes, I

> dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish

them,

>

> then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect

its

>

> smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation

I

> would get.

>

> regards

>

> stephen

>

>

> -------------

> This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net

>

>

> Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at

Times

> http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

>

> Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

> http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145

>

>

> and adjust

> accordingly.

>

> Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the

group

> requires prior permission from the author.

>

> Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

> necessary.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously,

bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of

fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of

herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different?

Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and

the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one

step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a

general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function

stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to

consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone?

 

Yehuda

<alonmarcus wrote:

Yehuda

If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can

immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation

can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the

patient symptom free.

With good therapy one can deal with symptoms.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic

combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy,

together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture

can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or

accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the

body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The

therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO.

 

<alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee

locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose

bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help.

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Dear Susan,

 

Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only

now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our

wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously

unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But

first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is

there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or

cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive

that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with

the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved.

Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and

CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work

bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am

I trying to be pedantic or patronizing.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

SusFro wrote:

Greetings all,

 

I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body

part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via

surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a

different

approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that

would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee

and

thus avoiding another surgery.

 

I will appreciate any and all assistance.

 

thanks.

 

susan froehlich, lac

hood river, or usa

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 07:18 PM 4/26/2006, wrote:

 

> Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working

> simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone

> fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's

> Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully

> treat bone spurs. Should this be different?

 

Bone spurs are active, compensatory growths, and can be (actively)

reabsorbed when the need for them is gone, and with some help from

Atx stimulation and herbal environment. As someone noted, if

calcified (like dried-out, dead bone), dissolving it would be harder,

as it doesn't have the vascular feed that provides growth or

reabsorbtion pathways.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yehuda

I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years.

Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same

thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at

all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not

seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt

dissolve and disappear.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Alon,

 

Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously,

bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of

fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of

herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different?

Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and

the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one

step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a

general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function

stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to

consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone?

 

Yehuda

<alonmarcus wrote:

Yehuda

If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can

immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation

can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the

patient symptom free.

With good therapy one can deal with symptoms.

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic

combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy,

together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture

can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or

accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the

body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The

therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO.

 

<alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee

locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose

bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help.

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Dear Susan,

 

Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only

now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our

wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously

unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But

first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is

there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or

cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive

that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with

the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved.

Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and

CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work

bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am

I trying to be pedantic or patronizing.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

SusFro wrote:

Greetings all,

 

I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating

body

part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via

surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a

different

approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that

would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my

knee and

thus avoiding another surgery.

 

I will appreciate any and all assistance.

 

thanks.

 

susan froehlich, lac

hood river, or usa

 

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, experience and skill as a

clinician. I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that

you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM

modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so

many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families

in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the

West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving

floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

 

Yehuda

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

Yehuda

I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years.

Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same

thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at

all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not

seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt

dissolve and disappear.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Alon,

 

Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously,

bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of

fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of

herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different?

Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and

the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one

step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a

general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function

stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to

consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone?

 

Yehuda

<alonmarcus wrote:

Yehuda

If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can

immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation

can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the

patient symptom free.

With good therapy one can deal with symptoms.

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic

combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy,

together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture

can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or

accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the

body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The

therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO.

 

<alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee

locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose

bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help.

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Dear Susan,

 

Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only

now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our

wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously

unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But

first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is

there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or

cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive

that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with

the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved.

Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and

CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work

bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am

I trying to be pedantic or patronizing.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

SusFro wrote:

Greetings all,

 

I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating

body

part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via

surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a

different

approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that

would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my

knee and

thus avoiding another surgery.

 

I will appreciate any and all assistance.

 

thanks.

 

susan froehlich, lac

hood river, or usa

 

 

[Guest guest]

Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman

< wrote:

 

" .... I just personally believe that there may be other modalities

that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated

with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen.

Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic

traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East

Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with

a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies,

that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. "

 

As a student of one such technique I can vouch for Yehuda's comments

from first hand experience. I have seen what seemed to be like wings

on knees disappear at the experienced hands of my teacher.

Cheers

Rossana

[Guest guest]

Rossana,

 

Please tell us more about the techniques used by your teacher.

 

- Mark

 

Quoting rossana_lowgren <rossana:

> As a student of one such technique I can vouch for Yehuda's comments

> from first hand experience. I have seen what seemed to be like wings

> on knees disappear at the experienced hands of my teacher.

> Cheers

> Rossana

[Guest guest]

A loose body cannot be seen, anyway i have not seen this here or in China.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

rossana_lowgren

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:16 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman

< wrote:

 

" .... I just personally believe that there may be other modalities

that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated

with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen.

Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic

traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East

Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with

a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies,

that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. "

 

As a student of one such technique I can vouch for Yehuda's comments

from first hand experience. I have seen what seemed to be like wings

on knees disappear at the experienced hands of my teacher.

Cheers

Rossana

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times

http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com

 

Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click,

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Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely

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[Guest guest]

Yehuda

By the way i use full scope osteopathy. That includes CST.

 

 

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

 

 

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:01 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Alon,

 

I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, experience and skill as a

clinician. I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that

you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM

modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so

many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families

in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the

West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving

floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

 

Yehuda

 

<alonmarcus wrote:

Yehuda

I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years.

Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same

thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at

all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not

seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt

dissolve and disappear.

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Alon,

 

Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously,

bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of

fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of

herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different?

Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and

the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one

step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a

general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function

stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to

consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone?

 

Yehuda

<alonmarcus wrote:

Yehuda

If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can

immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation

can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the

patient symptom free.

With good therapy one can deal with symptoms.

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic

combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy,

together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture

can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or

accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the

body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The

therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO.

 

<alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having

knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the

loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help.

 

 

Oakland, CA 94609

-

yehuda frischman

Chinese Medicine

Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM

Re: loose floating body in knee?

 

 

Dear Susan,

 

Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you

only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using

our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously

unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But

first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is

there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or

cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive

that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with

the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved.

Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and

CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work

bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am

I trying to be pedantic or patronizing.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yehuda

 

SusFro wrote:

Greetings all,

 

I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating

body

part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it

via

surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a

different

approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies,

that

would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my

knee and

thus avoiding another surgery.

 

I will appreciate any and all assistance.

 

thanks.

 

susan froehlich, lac

hood river, or usa

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi there

 

The modality is a mixture of chinese, middle eastern, indian and

western knowledge - compiled by my teacher. Clients are treated by

opening their energetic channels and removing blockages, allowing the

body to heal itself. Blockages can be held in the meridians, strange

flows, chakras or pranic fields. While the main priority is to get

people out of pain, we view illness more as a reflection of the the

client's spirit and how they view the world. Inner Alchemy Vs Outer

Alchemy.

 

While the wings I spoke of were not loose bodies, using various non

invasive hand techniques, hard substances in the body can be broken up

or dissolved. When I queried " the wings " example, my teacher surmised

that it was " hardened or blocked qi " and that " qi responds best to

(other) qi " . (I might add that my teacher, as a practitioner, is

solidly booked 3 months in advance.) I seem to recall on this

occassion the LV and GB channels were blocked which was directly

related to the client's state of mind.

 

Please do not interpret this discussion as " this is THE answer " , I

really just wanted to respond to Yehuda's comment that there are

indeed modalities alive and well that deal with this sort of problem

effectively - but are of course beyond the scope of discussion for

this community. I am very impressed with what I have witnessed (and

fixed myself) as I am sure the acupuncturists and practitioners of TCM

are with the healing modalities that they practice and I am grateful

for the wisdom shared on this board.

 

As St Augustine pointed out " there are no such things as miracles,

only unknown laws. "

 

Warm regards

Rossana

 

Chinese Medicine , mmilotay wrote:

>

> Rossana,

>

> Please tell us more about the techniques used by your teacher.

>

> - Mark

>

> Quoting rossana_lowgren <rossana:

> > As a student of one such technique I can vouch for Yehuda's comments

> > from first hand experience. I have seen what seemed to be like wings

> > on knees disappear at the experienced hands of my teacher.

> > Cheers

> > Rossana

>