Guest guest Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Greetings, No need to be apologizing - but of course I have been using TCM, herbs -internal and external - acupuncture and tuina. This has been on an as needed basis, so I wasn't as good about the preventative part in terms of using herbs/acupuncture when it was doing well. What I am curious about is if there is a formula or more, about dissolving a loose floating body part in the knee. Currently, western docs will tell you that the only way to take care of this is through surgery - I want to do it another way if possible. This is a new occurrence on an already bad knee.(Previous ACL replacement, and med./lat, partial menisectomy- degeneration noted on both surgeries). As in the past, I have already been using acupuncture - self given and by another practitioner - along with internal formulas of Yunnan biao for the swelling, yan hu suo for pain and topical formulas of dit dat jow, yunnan biao and chinese trauma oil from people's herbs, along with moxa and ROM exercise. The day before all of this happened, I went downhill skiing in sticky snow. A great deal of resistence. This most likely aggravated my compromised knee - the next day, my knee gave out about 5 times in the course of 2 hours, walking on flat surfaces and then the last time, it locked - unable to straighten it and very painful. Sharp pain. I tried to adjust my patella and other knee parts, and finally it unlocked. This is the pattern- very inconsistent locking, and a feeling that something is stuck as my knee cannot be straight until the " loose floating body part " becomes unlodged. This occurs randomly throughout the day - maybe 1x an hour, sometimes more sometimes less, lasting about 5-20 minutes. When it happens, my leg also buckles and the sharp pain radiates throughout the leg. My knee is swollen, no discoloration, little heat. Feels better with warmth. I tend to be pretty balanced, I am 51 y.o. and may lean towards a bit of yin xu, sp qi xu. Pulses tend to be towrads the thin and thready side. So, does anyone have an idea or two about dissolving this? If you do, I would be very appreciative. I thank you for your help. Regards, susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Hi, I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing that has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a time, at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive enzymes, I dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them, then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I would get. regards stephen ------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Most loose bodies are not visible on Xray Oakland, CA 94609 - stephenmacallan Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:21 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Hi, I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing that has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a time, at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive enzymes, I dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them, then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I would get. regards stephen ------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it is 75% fully functional. >>>>> That is also very uncommon with a loose body. Usually there is attacks and as soon as the loose body moves symptoms decrease. Oakland, CA 94609 - stephenmacallan Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:21 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Hi, I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing that has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a time, at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive enzymes, I dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them, then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I would get. regards stephen ------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 stephenmacallan wrote: > Hi, > I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing that > has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a time, > at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it > is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive enzymes, I > dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them, > then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its > smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I > would get. Hi Stephen! You took the enzymes by mouth, or injected into the knee? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 Manual manipulation hasn't beeen mentioned yet in the treatment of loose bodies. A good manual therapist (and one or two assistants to help stabilize the joint) may be able to unlock the joint and have the loose body absorbed. Painful moment, but if it works it's worth it. Tom. ---- 04/26/06 01:47:37 Chinese Medicine Re: loose floating body in knee? The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now it is 75% fully functional. >>>>> That is also very uncommon with a loose body. Usually there is attacks and as soon as the loose body moves symptoms decrease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 Hi Susan, I kind of get the sense that you have been using TCM therapies but thinking with a Western mentality. I will explain and offer some suggestions below: SusFro wrote: Greetings, No need to be apologizing - but of course I have been using TCM, herbs -internal and external - acupuncture and tuina. This has been on an as needed basis, so I wasn't as good about the preventative part in terms of using herbs/acupuncture when it was doing well. What I am curious about is if there is a formula or more, about dissolving a loose floating body part in the knee. Currently, western docs will tell you that the only way to take care of this is through surgery - I want to do it another way if possible. This is a new occurrence on an already bad knee.(Previous ACL replacement, and med./lat, partial menisectomy- degeneration noted on both surgeries). As in the past, I have already been using acupuncture - self given and by another practitioner - along with internal formulas of Yunnan biao for the swelling, yan hu suo for pain and topical formulas of dit dat jow, yunnan biao and chinese trauma oil from people's herbs, along with moxa and ROM exercise. All very intelligent, but not focused enough to resolve the loose tissue and eliminate the swelling. Also what herbal formulas were you taking internally? The day before all of this happened, I went downhill skiing in sticky snow. A great deal of resistence. This most likely aggravated my compromised knee - the next day, my knee gave out about 5 times in the course of 2 hours, walking on flat surfaces and then the last time, it locked - unable to straighten it and very painful. Sharp pain. I tried to adjust my patella and other knee parts, and finally it unlocked. This is the pattern- very inconsistent locking, and a feeling that something is stuck as my knee cannot be straight until the " loose floating body part " becomes unlodged. This occurs randomly throughout the day - maybe 1x an hour, sometimes more sometimes less, lasting about 5-20 minutes. When it happens, my leg also buckles and the sharp pain radiates throughout the leg. My knee is swollen, no discoloration, little heat. Feels better with warmth. I tend to be pretty balanced, I am 51 y.o. and may lean towards a bit of yin xu, sp qi xu. Pulses tend to be towrads the thin and thready side. What does your tongue look like? Do you also have low back pain? Is the knee swelling constant? Do you like hot or cold weather? So, does anyone have an idea or two about dissolving this? If you do, I would be very appreciative. I thank you for your help. Regards, susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa If I were in your place, I would start off with a formula like Du Huo Ji Sheng Tang, which addresses wind-damp bi in the lower jiao, as well as augmenting qi and blood xu. I would modify it by adding herbs to nourish yin if that indeed is an issue, choose huai niu xi which is the tonifying form of niu xi and perhaps increase the dose to up to 15g, I would also consider adding herbs such as song Jie, Wei Ling Xian, gu sui bu and Qin Jiao. That should be a good start. Hope that you feel better! Yehuda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 Honestly, if I had the money or insurance, I would have the thing taken out. Use the enzymes to heal from the surgery. Then get on with my life. This kind of surgery is fairly simple and of great use. I would personally switch from a digestive enzyme to a more specific anti-inflammatory enzyme formula like Vitalzyme or Neprinol. Your mileage may vary, Chris In a message dated 4/26/2006 2:01:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, stephenmacallan writes: Hi, this one was - looked like a marble, medic said it had broken off from my tib or fib ( cant remember which) he pointed to a cavity that corresponded. From an old football injury 40 years ago. stephen > Most loose bodies are not visible on Xray > > > > 400 29th St. #419 > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > stephenmacallan > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:21 PM > Re: loose floating body in knee? > > > Hi, > I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing > that > has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a > time, > at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now > it > is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive > enzymes, I > dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them, > > then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its > > smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I > would get. > > regards > > stephen > > > ------------- > This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 Hi, took them by mouth. stephen Quoting petetheisen <petetheisen: > stephenmacallan wrote: > > Hi, > > I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing > that > > has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a > time, > > at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now > it > > is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive > enzymes, I > > dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them, > > > then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its > > > smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I > > would get. > > Hi Stephen! > > You took the enzymes by mouth, or injected into the knee? > > Regards, > > Pete > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 Hi, this one was - looked like a marble, medic said it had broken off from my tib or fib ( cant remember which) he pointed to a cavity that corresponded. From an old football injury 40 years ago. stephen > Most loose bodies are not visible on Xray > > > > > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > - > stephenmacallan > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:21 PM > Re: loose floating body in knee? > > > Hi, > I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing > that > has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a > time, > at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now > it > is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive > enzymes, I > dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them, > > then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its > > smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I > would get. > > regards > > stephen > > > ------------- > This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 that would mean that is it not cartilage but is calcified. I think the teck is exaggerating a small marble in the knee would completely block motion Oakland, CA 94609 - Musiclear Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 11:37 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Honestly, if I had the money or insurance, I would have the thing taken out. Use the enzymes to heal from the surgery. Then get on with my life. This kind of surgery is fairly simple and of great use. I would personally switch from a digestive enzyme to a more specific anti-inflammatory enzyme formula like Vitalzyme or Neprinol. Your mileage may vary, Chris In a message dated 4/26/2006 2:01:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, stephenmacallan writes: Hi, this one was - looked like a marble, medic said it had broken off from my tib or fib ( cant remember which) he pointed to a cavity that corresponded. From an old football injury 40 years ago. stephen > Most loose bodies are not visible on Xray > > > > 400 29th St. #419 > Oakland, CA 94609 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > stephenmacallan > Chinese Medicine > Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:21 PM > Re: loose floating body in knee? > > > Hi, > I`ve got one too - floating body in the knee that is. The only thing > that > has helped has been large doses of digestive enzymes taken, 10 days at a > time, > at intervals. The knee was agony, huge and barely bendable for months, now > it > is 75% fully functional. MMMM..... need another course of digestive > enzymes, I > dread it atm cos the enzymes make it hurt like billyo, unitl I finish them, > > then it feels better. My body is/was large (marble-sized) and I suspect its > > smaller now, kindof want an x-ray to check, but dont want the radiation I > would get. > > regards > > stephen > > > ------------- > This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net > > > Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times > http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com > > Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, > http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 > > > and adjust > accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group > requires prior permission from the author. > > Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely > necessary. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Alon, Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone? Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 At 07:18 PM 4/26/2006, wrote: > Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working > simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone > fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's > Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully > treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Bone spurs are active, compensatory growths, and can be (actively) reabsorbed when the need for them is gone, and with some help from Atx stimulation and herbal environment. As someone noted, if calcified (like dried-out, dead bone), dissolving it would be harder, as it doesn't have the vascular feed that provides growth or reabsorbtion pathways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Yehuda I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years. Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt dissolve and disappear. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone? Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Alon, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, experience and skill as a clinician. I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years. Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt dissolve and disappear. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone? Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: " .... I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. " As a student of one such technique I can vouch for Yehuda's comments from first hand experience. I have seen what seemed to be like wings on knees disappear at the experienced hands of my teacher. Cheers Rossana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2006 Report Share Posted April 27, 2006 Rossana, Please tell us more about the techniques used by your teacher. - Mark Quoting rossana_lowgren <rossana: > As a student of one such technique I can vouch for Yehuda's comments > from first hand experience. I have seen what seemed to be like wings > on knees disappear at the experienced hands of my teacher. > Cheers > Rossana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 A loose body cannot be seen, anyway i have not seen this here or in China. Oakland, CA 94609 - rossana_lowgren Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:16 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Chinese Medicine , yehuda frischman < wrote: " .... I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. " As a student of one such technique I can vouch for Yehuda's comments from first hand experience. I have seen what seemed to be like wings on knees disappear at the experienced hands of my teacher. Cheers Rossana Subscribe to the new FREE online journal for TCM at Times http://www.chinesemedicinetimes.com Download the all new TCM Forum Toolbar, click, http://toolbar.thebizplace.com/LandingPage.aspx/CT145145 and adjust accordingly. Please consider the environment and only print this message if absolutely necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Yehuda By the way i use full scope osteopathy. That includes CST. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Thursday, April 27, 2006 12:01 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge, experience and skill as a clinician. I just personally believe that there may be other modalities that you do not use (ie. CST or medical qi gong) which when integrated with CM modalities may affect a difference you haven't seen. Furthermore, there are so many remarkable individual therapeutic traditions carried forward by families in China in particular and East Asia in general, that just because we in the West aren't familiar with a protocol for success in areas such as dissolving floating bodies, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda I have been doing a comprehensive approach as you suggest for over 20 years. Seen many pt with loose bodies and just have not seen these disappear. Same thing with many torn menisci cases. Some types of tears just do not respond at all, some can be managed and some heal (peripheral lesions). I just have not seen one case of a documented loose body in a significantly symptomatic pt dissolve and disappear. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 7:18 PM Re: loose floating body in knee? Alon, Don't underestimate the synergistic effect of working simultaneously, bioelectrically and biochemically to dissolve bone fragments. As a matter of fact, I happened to see in Chen's Materia medica,that he lists a number of herbs that successfully treat bone spurs. Should this be different? Furthermore, we agree that pain can be ameliorated, swelling can be reduced and the inflamatory process can be halted. I would suggest, taking that process one step further, that the body's response is a general " shift to the right " , a general feeling that the body is getting better, and the immune function stronger, by this course of action. Why therefore is it unreasonable to consider the likelihood of dissolving " dead " floating pieces of bone? Yehuda <alonmarcus wrote: Yehuda If you are saying make a difference i agree. First a manipulation can immediately eliminate symptoms for at least short time. Secondary inflammation can be helped. But I have not seen large peace " dissolved, " i.e., making the patient symptom free. With good therapy one can deal with symptoms. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Wednesday, April 26, 2006 12:44 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? My experience, Alon, is that even with knee locking, the synergistic combination of bio-electric therapies such as qi gong or CranioSacral therapy, together with oral ingestion and topical application of herbs, and acupuncture can make a difference. Once a piece of cartilage breaks free, from injury or accident, it causes inflammation and calcification, which I would suggest is the body's attempt to rid itself of what it perceives as a foreign body. The therapies which I suggest aid this process, IMHO. <alonmarcus wrote: Are you actually having knee locking? if yes i have to disagree with Yehuda TCM will not " dissolve " the loose bodies. If it is just knee junk (synovium) than TCM can help. Oakland, CA 94609 - yehuda frischman Chinese Medicine Tuesday, April 25, 2006 1:09 AM Re: loose floating body in knee? Dear Susan, Forgive my presumptuousness, but as a practitioner of TCM, are you only now first attempting to relieve your discomfort and (I assume) pain using our wonderful medicine? If not tell us what you have tried previously unsuccessfully, and perhaps team TCM can come up with some helpful ideas. But first, what patterns are involved , particularly relative to your knee: is there swelling and damp accumulation there? qi or blood stagnation? heat or cold, repletion or vacuity? If vacuity yin or yang vacuity? I am positive that both internally and externally (particularly with blood moving herbs) with the right differentiation and therapies, that the bodies can be dissolved. Also consider therapies as adjuncts, such as acupuncture, tui na, qi gong, and CranioSacral therapy, working bio-electrically, while the herbs work bio-chemically. Again please forgive me if this is insulting, and in no way am I trying to be pedantic or patronizing. Sincerely, Yehuda SusFro wrote: Greetings all, I am interested in anyone's experience in dealing with a loose floating body part in a knee. . .mine. It appears that the ortho way is to remove it via surgery, but as I have had two previous surgeries, I am in favor of a different approach. I was wondering if anyone had a formula/s, tx strategies, that would work on absorbing this loose body part, giving health back to my knee and thus avoiding another surgery. I will appreciate any and all assistance. thanks. susan froehlich, lac hood river, or usa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2006 Report Share Posted April 28, 2006 Hi there The modality is a mixture of chinese, middle eastern, indian and western knowledge - compiled by my teacher. Clients are treated by opening their energetic channels and removing blockages, allowing the body to heal itself. Blockages can be held in the meridians, strange flows, chakras or pranic fields. While the main priority is to get people out of pain, we view illness more as a reflection of the the client's spirit and how they view the world. Inner Alchemy Vs Outer Alchemy. While the wings I spoke of were not loose bodies, using various non invasive hand techniques, hard substances in the body can be broken up or dissolved. When I queried " the wings " example, my teacher surmised that it was " hardened or blocked qi " and that " qi responds best to (other) qi " . (I might add that my teacher, as a practitioner, is solidly booked 3 months in advance.) I seem to recall on this occassion the LV and GB channels were blocked which was directly related to the client's state of mind. Please do not interpret this discussion as " this is THE answer " , I really just wanted to respond to Yehuda's comment that there are indeed modalities alive and well that deal with this sort of problem effectively - but are of course beyond the scope of discussion for this community. I am very impressed with what I have witnessed (and fixed myself) as I am sure the acupuncturists and practitioners of TCM are with the healing modalities that they practice and I am grateful for the wisdom shared on this board. As St Augustine pointed out " there are no such things as miracles, only unknown laws. " Warm regards Rossana Chinese Medicine , mmilotay wrote: > > Rossana, > > Please tell us more about the techniques used by your teacher. > > - Mark > > Quoting rossana_lowgren <rossana: > > As a student of one such technique I can vouch for Yehuda's comments > > from first hand experience. I have seen what seemed to be like wings > > on knees disappear at the experienced hands of my teacher. > > Cheers > > Rossana > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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