Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 Hi all - am struggling with a business plan and wonder if anyone can point me to research on the trends reflecting growth of acupuncture/complementary medical clinics/us in the US, particularly New England. Information on industry background also would be helpful. Thanks Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Karen Adams wrote: > Hi all - am struggling with a business plan <snip> Hi Karen! *This* again. What *is* booming is TCM *Education*, the schools cranking out graduates like popcorn. The government subsidizes the schools by guaranteeing the student loans. Each of the annual legion of graduates has to build a practice. Only 40% of the insurance company plans provide any coverage at all for TCM, and that is only for acupuncture, not the whole of TCM. Medicare does *not* cover TCM. There are essentially no TCM " jobs " . OK, one or two a year, but you won't likely be the lucky one to be hired fresh from school. I got help writing my business plan from SCORE. By all means write a business plan. Then whatever cash it says you need going in, multiply by twenty, no, fifty. Even that might not be enough. You go a long time before you begin to cover the expenses let alone make any money. You burn through cash until you become profitable, if you ever even do. There was a poll started on this list a while ago. Last I looked only a few are getting more than four new patients a month. More revealing is how long it takes the patient to feel well enough that he/she will " call you later " , the poll didn't address *that* problem. You spend $700 in promotion to get a patient, they pay you $200 and then they are better and don't need you anymore. TCM is great medicine, but an economic failure at this point in history. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 acupuncturetoday had some demographics about 3-4 years ago Bob www.acuherbals.com Karen Adams <tryfan wrote: Hi all - am struggling with a business plan and wonder if anyone can point me to research on the trends reflecting growth of acupuncture/complementary medical clinics/us in the US, particularly New England. Information on industry background also would be helpful. Thanks Karen http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Oh, Dear... What Pete wrote below is quite different from my experience, and I am so glad that there an array of different experiences to be had as acupuncture practitioners. My best suggestion for demographics info is to do a google search on demographics of those who use acupuncture or other complementary healing arts. I've done some classes with SCORE also and found them very worthwhile. Your SCORE counselor may also be able to steer you in some directions for demographics details. Good luck with your business plan. A good survival skill is to develop a healthy balance between " realism " and optimism, with a greater measure of optimism. Stay true to your dreams, and make sure to address any issues you may have about money, success, and abundance. Especially make sure you're in a place you're absolutely delighted to be. My worst mistake was initially starting my practice in a place that I knew was never going to be home. After 2 years there, not much was happening. I have since relocated, and am doing much better after only 6 months than I had ever done in my initial location. You are welcome to contact me off-list, if you wish. Blessings, Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Karen Adams wrote: > Hi all - am struggling with a business plan <snip> Hi Karen! *This* again. What *is* booming is TCM *Education*, the schools cranking out graduates like popcorn. The government subsidizes the schools by guaranteeing the student loans. Each of the annual legion of graduates has to build a practice. Only 40% of the insurance company plans provide any coverage at all for TCM, and that is only for acupuncture, not the whole of TCM. Medicare does *not* cover TCM. There are essentially no TCM " jobs " . OK, one or two a year, but you won't likely be the lucky one to be hired fresh from school. I got help writing my business plan from SCORE. By all means write a business plan. Then whatever cash it says you need going in, multiply by twenty, no, fifty. Even that might not be enough. You go a long time before you begin to cover the expenses let alone make any money. You burn through cash until you become profitable, if you ever even do. There was a poll started on this list a while ago. Last I looked only a few are getting more than four new patients a month. More revealing is how long it takes the patient to feel well enough that he/she will " call you later " , the poll didn't address *that* problem. You spend $700 in promotion to get a patient, they pay you $200 and then they are better and don't need you anymore. TCM is great medicine, but an economic failure at this point in history. Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 I've made more than my expenses every month of my practice but one, and I was in Europe for 2 weeks that month! After being in practice for 8 months I'm seeing about 15 patients a week and taking home about $2500 /mo. Not enough to get rich, but I'm paying most of my bills. I have my own office with a rent of $900/month so I'm not a small time operation with virtually no expenses like many right out of school. From what I have seen and heard, Pete's experience is fairly unique. I suspect that there are some on the upper end of the bell curve, and others on the lower end, but it seems that most acupuncturists fall somewhere in-between. Starting and building a practice does take a lot of work and vision, no doubt about it. It isn't for those with GB deficiency. I picked the Phoenix area after doing considerable demographic research. My main criteria was economic and sunshine (warm and cold, it doesn't matter, but sunshine). After this last summer, I'm not sure it was the wisest choice. 100+F from early May to the end of September. I feel fried. My practice is doing great, but I'm not feeling at home here. Andria, where did you setup initially and why? Where are you now? Why did you move? Would you have moved if your practice was doing great even though you weren't delighted to be there? My ideal place to practice would be somewhere in Montana where I lived for 2 years in the early 90's. Even though costs would be cheaper there, I'm not sure I could make it work financially, where-as here I'm on the fast track to a comfortable living. Such a dilemma! Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:43 PM Chinese Medicine Re: demographics Oh, Dear... What Pete wrote below is quite different from my experience, and I am so glad that there an array of different experiences to be had as acupuncture practitioners. My best suggestion for demographics info is to do a google search on demographics of those who use acupuncture or other complementary healing arts. I've done some classes with SCORE also and found them very worthwhile. Your SCORE counselor may also be able to steer you in some directions for demographics details. Good luck with your business plan. A good survival skill is to develop a healthy balance between " realism " and optimism, with a greater measure of optimism. Stay true to your dreams, and make sure to address any issues you may have about money, success, and abundance. Especially make sure you're in a place you're absolutely delighted to be. My worst mistake was initially starting my practice in a place that I knew was never going to be home. After 2 years there, not much was happening. I have since relocated, and am doing much better after only 6 months than I had ever done in my initial location. You are welcome to contact me off-list, if you wish. Blessings, Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Karen Adams wrote: > Hi all - am struggling with a business plan <snip> Hi Karen! *This* again. What *is* booming is TCM *Education*, the schools cranking out graduates like popcorn. The government subsidizes the schools by guaranteeing the student loans. Each of the annual legion of graduates has to build a practice. Only 40% of the insurance company plans provide any coverage at all for TCM, and that is only for acupuncture, not the whole of TCM. Medicare does *not* cover TCM. There are essentially no TCM " jobs " . OK, one or two a year, but you won't likely be the lucky one to be hired fresh from school. I got help writing my business plan from SCORE. By all means write a business plan. Then whatever cash it says you need going in, multiply by twenty, no, fifty. Even that might not be enough. You go a long time before you begin to cover the expenses let alone make any money. You burn through cash until you become profitable, if you ever even do. There was a poll started on this list a while ago. Last I looked only a few are getting more than four new patients a month. More revealing is how long it takes the patient to feel well enough that he/she will " call you later " , the poll didn't address *that* problem. You spend $700 in promotion to get a patient, they pay you $200 and then they are better and don't need you anymore. TCM is great medicine, but an economic failure at this point in history. Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Dear Andrea - thanks for the reply and encouragement. The good news (in a weird way) is that this isn't the first practice I've set up. Nor is it the first business plan, more's the pity. I'm trying to justify conventional wisdom - as in 'everyone knows CAM is becoming more and more popular...' I find it fascinating that the responses to my question (apart from Pete's) have been snippets of demographic ideas and loads of encouragement and support. People are being very kind. I trained in England and owned a clinic there for 2 years, moved back to the states after my first grandchild was born. So I'm starting again in the place that has always been home (that was important, what you said). The business plan is one of those hoops (kinda like the NCCAOM exams) I have to do to prove to the universe that I'm serious about this. That's cool, tho a little frustrating but I'm following the old 'the gods help those who help themselves' precept. Thanks so much for the Google idea - and for your support. Karen wrote: >Oh, Dear... > >What Pete wrote below is quite different from my experience, and I am so glad that there an array of different experiences to be had as acupuncture practitioners. > >My best suggestion for demographics info is to do a google search on demographics of those who use acupuncture or other complementary healing arts. I've done some classes with SCORE also and found them very worthwhile. Your SCORE counselor may also be able to steer you in some directions for demographics details. > >Good luck with your business plan. A good survival skill is to develop a healthy balance between " realism " and optimism, with a greater measure of optimism. Stay true to your dreams, and make sure to address any issues you may have about money, success, and abundance. Especially make sure you're in a place you're absolutely delighted to be. My worst mistake was initially starting my practice in a place that I knew was never going to be home. After 2 years there, not much was happening. I have since relocated, and am doing much better after only 6 months than I had ever done in my initial location. > >You are welcome to contact me off-list, if you wish. > >Blessings, > > > > > >Pete Theisen <petet wrote: >Karen Adams wrote: > > >>Hi all - am struggling with a business plan >> >> ><snip> >Hi Karen! > >*This* again. What *is* booming is TCM *Education*, the schools cranking >out graduates like popcorn. The government subsidizes the schools by >guaranteeing the student loans. > >Each of the annual legion of graduates has to build a practice. Only 40% >of the insurance company plans provide any coverage at all for TCM, and >that is only for acupuncture, not the whole of TCM. Medicare does *not* >cover TCM. > >There are essentially no TCM " jobs " . OK, one or two a year, but you >won't likely be the lucky one to be hired fresh from school. > >I got help writing my business plan from SCORE. By all means write a >business plan. Then whatever cash it says you need going in, multiply by >twenty, no, fifty. Even that might not be enough. You go a long time >before you begin to cover the expenses let alone make any money. You >burn through cash until you become profitable, if you ever even do. > >There was a poll started on this list a while ago. Last I looked only a >few are getting more than four new patients a month. More revealing is >how long it takes the patient to feel well enough that he/she will " call >you later " , the poll didn't address *that* problem. > >You spend $700 in promotion to get a patient, they pay you $200 and then >they are better and don't need you anymore. TCM is great medicine, but >an economic failure at this point in history. > >Regards, > >Pete > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: Hi Christopher, Andrea! It would seem that the demographics would be good where I am, heavily over 50 population, lots of really rich people. But, we have an Acupuncture school here and the practitioner count increases every year as they graduate class after class. I have also noticed that a number of practitioners have well-employed spouses while I am single. I do know that nothing I have done for promotion in four years has paid its way. The only thing I haven't done yet is TV and I am getting ready to try that. I treat a lot of patients, but not enough to pay for the promotion costs. The more I advertise/promote the more money I lose. Regards, Pete > I've made more than my expenses every month of my practice but one <snip> > Oh, Dear... What Pete wrote below is quite different from my > experience <snip> > Blessings, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Great comments, Andrea. I am teaching a class on Business Planning and Trends to Massage Therapists. I will share this with them. Incidientally, I need to write my own business plan. I am using the binder trick. Any idea that comes into my mind, any time I have to type the idea, any new piece of info I get, I put in the binder under a category, e.g. office layout, financial, marketing, etc. Then there is a start to actually begin a formal plan. I think there is a great interest in discussing business and practice ideas on this forum. So I always welcome new ideas. Thanks again, Anne wrote: > Oh, Dear... > > What Pete wrote below is quite different from my experience, and I am > so glad that there an array of different experiences to be had as > acupuncture practitioners. > > My best suggestion for demographics info is to do a google search on > demographics of those who use acupuncture or other complementary > healing arts. I've done some classes with SCORE also and found them > very worthwhile. Your SCORE counselor may also be able to steer you > in some directions for demographics details. > > Good luck with your business plan. A good survival skill is to > develop a healthy balance between " realism " and optimism, with a > greater measure of optimism. Stay true to your dreams, and make sure > to address any issues you may have about money, success, and > abundance. Especially make sure you're in a place you're absolutely > delighted to be. My worst mistake was initially starting my practice > in a place that I knew was never going to be home. After 2 years > there, not much was happening. I have since relocated, and am doing > much better after only 6 months than I had ever done in my initial > location. > > You are welcome to contact me off-list, if you wish. > > Blessings, > > > > > > Pete Theisen <petet wrote: > Karen Adams wrote: > > Hi all - am struggling with a business plan > <snip> > Hi Karen! > > *This* again. What *is* booming is TCM *Education*, the schools cranking > out graduates like popcorn. The government subsidizes the schools by > guaranteeing the student loans. > > Each of the annual legion of graduates has to build a practice. Only 40% > of the insurance company plans provide any coverage at all for TCM, and > that is only for acupuncture, not the whole of TCM. Medicare does *not* > cover TCM. > > There are essentially no TCM " jobs " . OK, one or two a year, but you > won't likely be the lucky one to be hired fresh from school. > > I got help writing my business plan from SCORE. By all means write a > business plan. Then whatever cash it says you need going in, multiply by > twenty, no, fifty. Even that might not be enough. You go a long time > before you begin to cover the expenses let alone make any money. You > burn through cash until you become profitable, if you ever even do. > > There was a poll started on this list a while ago. Last I looked only a > few are getting more than four new patients a month. More revealing is > how long it takes the patient to feel well enough that he/she will " call > you later " , the poll didn't address *that* problem. > > You spend $700 in promotion to get a patient, they pay you $200 and then > they are better and don't need you anymore. TCM is great medicine, but > an economic failure at this point in history. > > Regards, > > Pete > > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > > and > adjust accordingly. > > Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the > group requires prior permission from the author. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Christopher, It's good to meet a " neighbor " acupuncturist! I relocated last December to Cottonwood, outside of Sedona. (In case you didn't know, there are 3 Cottonwoods in Arizona, hence the reference). Prior to this, I had been living in San Diego, having moved there from Berkeley in order to attend PCOM. After living in and loving Berkeley, it was conservative, military-minded San Diego, with its dearth of neighborhoods and communities (only urban sprawl) that never felt like home. I knew when I moved there to attend school that I wouldn't stay, and if I hadn't met my present partner there, who intended to stay there the rest of her life, I wouldn't have stayed as long as I did and tried to grow a practice there. Not only wasn't San Diego home, but I also learned that I'm just not a big city kind of person. Even though I was born in New York, and lived in or near one major city or another all my life until now, I don't have the high energy and drive that I found is required in order to be visible and successful in big city environments. I'm quiet, creative, sensitive, artistic, private, and deeply " inner " . I found that my energetic way of being didn't fit in the big city, and so people quite literally didn't even know I was there and this made it hard for me to grow a business there. I wasn't loud enough, big enough, splashy enough, etc, and I didn't know how to compete with the plethora of acupuncturists already there. So it is good fortune that a series of vacations to southern Utah and northern Arizona, coupled with unaffordable land prices in San Diego, brought my partner and I to relocate to our current community. Here, in a small town, where everybody knows everybody else's business, it is easier and more comfortable for me to be myself and to be heard, seen, and appreciated. I opened my practice here in February of this year. I do anywhere from 5 to 15 treatments weekly, and I rarely did more than 5 in San Diego. So I am busier and still growing, with lots of room for more growth. I had been in a chiropractor's office until this month, who only charged me 10% of my office visit fees as rent - this really made it easy for me financially. I just started renting my own office for the first time ever this month, at $325. One of the advantages of practicing in a small town is that it is easier to find more affordable office space than in the city. On the down side, the economic base is much lower here, so I have lowered my fees. I currently charge $75 for initial visits, $55 for follow-ups, and $25 for seniors over 65. I am covering my expenses, but barely, averaging about $1800 per month. However, in San Diego, I needed to have a job in addition to my practice in order to make ends meet. At least here I have the option of using my spare time and energy for promotion and practice-building. When we decided to come to the Verde Valley, it wasn't because of a great demographic portrait for an acupuncture practice; in fact, I thought I'd have to diversify in order to make money. Initially I thought I would teach CEUs to nursing alums at NAU in Flagstaff, and also to massage alums in the several local massage schools. I have been selected to treat guests at Sedona's newest luxury resort, but they have yet to get organized in signing contracts with their independent contractors. I also thought I'd have 3 offices - one in Cottonwood, one in Sedona, and one in Village of Oak Creek. However, the reality of travel time is much different on the ground than how it seems on the map, and all that driving around would have made me quite scattered indeed. I chose Cottonwood simply because most of the local acupuncturists in the Verde Valley are located elsewhere, in Sedona. I considered the " woo-woo " reputation that Sedona has also, and decided I wanted a more professional image for myself. Cottonwood is centrally located between Clarkdale, Jerome, and Cornville, all of which have no acupuncturists. And the other 3 acupuncturists in Cottonwood are here only part-time, with the majority of their time spent in Sedona. I didn't consider demographics too strongly, except to note that Cottonwood now has the fastest-growing population in the Verde Valley, with people moving here faster than homes can be built. Also, there are over 30,000 people between Cottonwood and the local outlying towns, and that seemed large enough for developing a practice. Oddly enough, most of my patients are driving from farther locations than I had even thought about - places where I thought folks were too conservatively-minded to be open to acupuncture and herbal medicine. They drive 30 to 45 minutes to see me, and I had never anticipated that. What is peculiar to me, demographically speaking, is how land prices are now soaring, more people are moving here, and yet wages are still low and there is not much job growth - except in the construction industry. I have a friend who has been a realtor here for most of her life, and she points out that most of the population here is retired seniors. This was a useful point for me when I was considering doing additional training in fertility medicine! Since I have moved here, I have utilized resources at the local Small Business Development Council, the local Economic Development Council, and local chambers of commerce. I have learned good things from the SBDC about how to market myself in a small town, which requires different strategies for success than big city or national and even worldwide marketing. For instance, small town success requires a strong personal approach, more than credentials or experience. And it is easier for me to come out of my " quiet, private " shell in a small town where there is lots of interest in people and community, and little competition. I belong to a business networking group, and to the National Association of Women Business Owners, and find that I rarely get referrals from these sorts of activities. What works best for me is being out in the world and talking to people, one-on-one. All of my patients are either through this kind of personal contact, or through referrals from former patients. Weather patterns were a small part of my consideration when looking to relocate. I had spent my entire life along one coast or another, and having fibromyalgia which is aggravated by damp environments, I was ready to move somewhere where I could " dry out " . I thought the high desert would be a good place. Little did I know how humid and hot it is here in the summer - not much cooler than Phoenix; when it was 118 there, it was 115 here! And the insanity of swamp coolers that only make the air in your house more humid! Also, the winters here are colder than we expected - our first week here last December, every morning the temperature was 18 degrees! But we've been told everything in the weather here this year has been extreme and unusual; winter was more cold and rainy, spring was colder than usual, summer was hotter and more humid than usual, and fall came more abruptly than usual. So who knows what the typical weather really is here? We wanted to mover somewhere where we could afford land so we could have horses, and we now have that land but not yet the horses. I'm trusting I will acclimate to the weather patterns at some point. The biggest drawback to living in a remote small town is the absence of all the abundant things that are so easy to have in the city: shopping, culture, good restaurants that stay open later than 8 pm, cultural diversity, streellights. I miss an active and large Jewish community. The blessings of living in a small town are: quiet (no boom boxes!), clean air, interesting and varied wildlife at your doorstep (and even in your house sometimes), community, strong ethics, clear night skies with so many stars and the Milky Way right overhead, accessibility to a variety of Native American cultures, and of course, the great and wild beauty of Red Rock Country. It is a harder life because it requires more effort to do just about everything, but because of it, I see evidence of much better health in my senior patients than I had ever seen in any of the cities I had lived in. People need to be more active here, and are more likely to be " do-it-yourselfers " than couch potatoes, so they are amazingly healthy way into their late 70's and 80's, more than I had thought possible. These elders are truly my best teachers. I get far more from them than the $25 they pay me, and I am grateful. I hope this answers your questions, Christopher. If not, you can ask me more. Blessings, Andrea Beth " Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. " <ckvedeler wrote: I've made more than my expenses every month of my practice but one, and I was in Europe for 2 weeks that month! After being in practice for 8 months I'm seeing about 15 patients a week and taking home about $2500 /mo. Not enough to get rich, but I'm paying most of my bills. I have my own office with a rent of $900/month so I'm not a small time operation with virtually no expenses like many right out of school. From what I have seen and heard, Pete's experience is fairly unique. I suspect that there are some on the upper end of the bell curve, and others on the lower end, but it seems that most acupuncturists fall somewhere in-between. Starting and building a practice does take a lot of work and vision, no doubt about it. It isn't for those with GB deficiency. I picked the Phoenix area after doing considerable demographic research. My main criteria was economic and sunshine (warm and cold, it doesn't matter, but sunshine). After this last summer, I'm not sure it was the wisest choice. 100+F from early May to the end of September. I feel fried. My practice is doing great, but I'm not feeling at home here. Andria, where did you setup initially and why? Where are you now? Why did you move? Would you have moved if your practice was doing great even though you weren't delighted to be there? My ideal place to practice would be somewhere in Montana where I lived for 2 years in the early 90's. Even though costs would be cheaper there, I'm not sure I could make it work financially, where-as here I'm on the fast track to a comfortable living. Such a dilemma! Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:43 PM Chinese Medicine Re: demographics Oh, Dear... What Pete wrote below is quite different from my experience, and I am so glad that there an array of different experiences to be had as acupuncture practitioners. My best suggestion for demographics info is to do a google search on demographics of those who use acupuncture or other complementary healing arts. I've done some classes with SCORE also and found them very worthwhile. Your SCORE counselor may also be able to steer you in some directions for demographics details. Good luck with your business plan. A good survival skill is to develop a healthy balance between " realism " and optimism, with a greater measure of optimism. Stay true to your dreams, and make sure to address any issues you may have about money, success, and abundance. Especially make sure you're in a place you're absolutely delighted to be. My worst mistake was initially starting my practice in a place that I knew was never going to be home. After 2 years there, not much was happening. I have since relocated, and am doing much better after only 6 months than I had ever done in my initial location. You are welcome to contact me off-list, if you wish. Blessings, Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Karen Adams wrote: > Hi all - am struggling with a business plan <snip> Hi Karen! *This* again. What *is* booming is TCM *Education*, the schools cranking out graduates like popcorn. The government subsidizes the schools by guaranteeing the student loans. Each of the annual legion of graduates has to build a practice. Only 40% of the insurance company plans provide any coverage at all for TCM, and that is only for acupuncture, not the whole of TCM. Medicare does *not* cover TCM. There are essentially no TCM " jobs " . OK, one or two a year, but you won't likely be the lucky one to be hired fresh from school. I got help writing my business plan from SCORE. By all means write a business plan. Then whatever cash it says you need going in, multiply by twenty, no, fifty. Even that might not be enough. You go a long time before you begin to cover the expenses let alone make any money. You burn through cash until you become profitable, if you ever even do. There was a poll started on this list a while ago. Last I looked only a few are getting more than four new patients a month. More revealing is how long it takes the patient to feel well enough that he/she will " call you later " , the poll didn't address *that* problem. You spend $700 in promotion to get a patient, they pay you $200 and then they are better and don't need you anymore. TCM is great medicine, but an economic failure at this point in history. Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Karen, I too had trouble with certain part of my business plan, until I realized that it is just a proposal, a researched theory, of how a practice will go. It's not set in stone, and it can be amended. That helped me relax and have fun with it. In fact, I still haven't finished it. :-) Andrea Beth karen <tryfan wrote: Dear Andrea - thanks for the reply and encouragement. The good news (in a weird way) is that this isn't the first practice I've set up. Nor is it the first business plan, more's the pity. I'm trying to justify conventional wisdom - as in 'everyone knows CAM is becoming more and more popular...' I find it fascinating that the responses to my question (apart from Pete's) have been snippets of demographic ideas and loads of encouragement and support. People are being very kind. I trained in England and owned a clinic there for 2 years, moved back to the states after my first grandchild was born. So I'm starting again in the place that has always been home (that was important, what you said). The business plan is one of those hoops (kinda like the NCCAOM exams) I have to do to prove to the universe that I'm serious about this. That's cool, tho a little frustrating but I'm following the old 'the gods help those who help themselves' precept. Thanks so much for the Google idea - and for your support. Karen wrote: >Oh, Dear... > >What Pete wrote below is quite different from my experience, and I am so glad that there an array of different experiences to be had as acupuncture practitioners. > >My best suggestion for demographics info is to do a google search on demographics of those who use acupuncture or other complementary healing arts. I've done some classes with SCORE also and found them very worthwhile. Your SCORE counselor may also be able to steer you in some directions for demographics details. > >Good luck with your business plan. A good survival skill is to develop a healthy balance between " realism " and optimism, with a greater measure of optimism. Stay true to your dreams, and make sure to address any issues you may have about money, success, and abundance. Especially make sure you're in a place you're absolutely delighted to be. My worst mistake was initially starting my practice in a place that I knew was never going to be home. After 2 years there, not much was happening. I have since relocated, and am doing much better after only 6 months than I had ever done in my initial location. > >You are welcome to contact me off-list, if you wish. > >Blessings, > > > > > >Pete Theisen <petet wrote: >Karen Adams wrote: > > >>Hi all - am struggling with a business plan >> >> ><snip> >Hi Karen! > >*This* again. What *is* booming is TCM *Education*, the schools cranking >out graduates like popcorn. The government subsidizes the schools by >guaranteeing the student loans. > >Each of the annual legion of graduates has to build a practice. Only 40% >of the insurance company plans provide any coverage at all for TCM, and >that is only for acupuncture, not the whole of TCM. Medicare does *not* >cover TCM. > >There are essentially no TCM " jobs " . OK, one or two a year, but you >won't likely be the lucky one to be hired fresh from school. > >I got help writing my business plan from SCORE. By all means write a >business plan. Then whatever cash it says you need going in, multiply by >twenty, no, fifty. Even that might not be enough. You go a long time >before you begin to cover the expenses let alone make any money. You >burn through cash until you become profitable, if you ever even do. > >There was a poll started on this list a while ago. Last I looked only a >few are getting more than four new patients a month. More revealing is >how long it takes the patient to feel well enough that he/she will " call >you later " , the poll didn't address *that* problem. > >You spend $700 in promotion to get a patient, they pay you $200 and then >they are better and don't need you anymore. TCM is great medicine, but >an economic failure at this point in history. > >Regards, > >Pete > > > > > http://babel.altavista.com/ > > and adjust accordingly. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi Pete, Have you tried specializing in an specific area of medicine, or emphasizing in your advertising that you can address whatever topic is currently in the news? Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: Hi Christopher, Andrea! It would seem that the demographics would be good where I am, heavily over 50 population, lots of really rich people. But, we have an Acupuncture school here and the practitioner count increases every year as they graduate class after class. I have also noticed that a number of practitioners have well-employed spouses while I am single. I do know that nothing I have done for promotion in four years has paid its way. The only thing I haven't done yet is TV and I am getting ready to try that. I treat a lot of patients, but not enough to pay for the promotion costs. The more I advertise/promote the more money I lose. Regards, Pete > I've made more than my expenses every month of my practice but one <snip> > Oh, Dear... What Pete wrote below is quite different from my > experience <snip> > Blessings, http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Hi All, I'm also in the process of writing a business plan (not a genre that comes naturally, to say the least), and have appreciated and agreed with many of the points made. However, I'd like to make a point or two in Pete's defense. I also live in an area where there is a lot of awareness of and demand for acupuncture, but which also has a school and a goodly number of acu's who have been in practice 15-20 years or more (I've only been practicing, part-time, for about 3 years; I'm also not from this area, didn't plan on coming here and don't intend to stay for more than a couple more years). I appreciated Pete's honesty about how hard it has been for him, because I relate to it. I haven't given up yet, but I've come damn close lots of times. I would be unsurprised to learn that there are lots of others who are scraping by, wondering whether they should chuck it (or already HAVE chucked it) who aren't getting counted, because they aren't trumpeting their lack of success from every rooftop - or aren't practicing anymore. Why else would practice management workshops abound like they do? (Checked the Bureau of Labor Statistics - they don't keep income data on acupuncturists.) And for the reasons stated above, I wouldn't trust survey info from Acupuncture Today, etc. Karen: In terms of demographic data and other hard statistics, I think these data are hard to find because they mostly don't exist (or aren't easily googleable). " Complementary medicine " use, yes, try the NIH website: http://nccam.nih.gov/ ....though you'll have to dig around for stats. Acupuncture use in a specific geographic area, I haven't found. I don't belong to CSOMA (can't afford the dues yet!) and so haven't asked them if they have such info, but that's where I would go next. (Anybody out there tried this?) Also, I'm sure you've already been to your local library's reference desk, but if not do try them. My " day job " is at the public library and I know they love to help. good luck, Nora Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: > > >From what I have seen and heard, Pete's experience is fairly unique. I > suspect that there are some on the upper end of the bell curve, and > others on the lower end, but it seems that most acupuncturists fall > somewhere in-between. Starting and building a practice does take a lot > of work and vision, no doubt about it. It isn't for those with GB > deficiency. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 I got a year's ad in the yellow pages back in the 80's at 85.00 per month (much more now), and got two calls in one year. I didn't even need it, averaging 60-80 patients per week at the time. Print ads and yellow page ads are a waste of time. Meeting people, networking with other health professionals, writing columns is what gets the practice moving. On Oct 20, 2005, at 5:09 PM, Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: > I did a 13 week print ad in the 2nd largest newspaper in Phoenix > with a > weekly circulation of 1/4 million. $154 a week for 13 weeks. > Going in, > I figured I would need 1 new patient per week to more than pay for the > ad (since each patient typically comes about 3 - 5 times). Well, > after > 10 weeks I had a total of 2 calls and no patients. Needless to say, > after my commitment I stopped that! I do have a yellow pages ad at > $100 > a month. That just hit the streets, so I will give it some time > before > I make a judgment about that. That is a one year commitment. The > only > reason I went with a yellow pages ad was because I was getting calls > from my free line listing in the yellow pages before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Similar to others here, I've had limited success with print advertising. What has worked is: 1) Getting a website that is visible. This paid for itself completely within three weeks of being up and running. 2) Developing a network of practitioners to refer to. 3) One on One meeting people, which was quite difficult in the beginning but gets easier as time goes on. 4) some success with health fairs by attracting people with free 5-10 min acupressure massages and giving consultations. 5) I haven't been on the talk circuit yet to every health-oriented group in the area, but I know a number of people who launched their practice this way. This is my next project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Linda Gruber wrote: > Pete, > I just read a book titled Happiness is a Serious Problem. Hi Linda! Interesting suggestion. Why do you think this is relevant to demographics, business climate, advertising response and business plans? I send out a promotional piece. Everyone I show it to thinks it is the best they have ever seen. It bombs. I know, I should read a self-help book on happiness. I am trying to understand you, but . . . Want to see the best promotional piece my friends have ever seen? I have a few left if you send me your address. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: Hi Christopher! Thanks, interesting reply - my thoughts inline: > There are 2 schools here. I see it as a good thing as it raises the > awareness of the medicine in the community and provides a cheaper > option for those brave enough to have students practice on them. Seems here that the school's student clinic sets the rate. Also, the school seems very well funded - they full-page advertise *all* the time. > I have a wife, a 3 year old and another on the way and I am the only > one making money. Being single would be easier I think. :-) That's what I would think, but it appears that around here (serious, big time " conservative religion city " ) people want a *man* of a certain age or older to be married and have kids, otherwise they conclude he is gay - and they judge that a bad thing. Or they think he might be straight but a danger to women - that is also a bad thing. I am not gay and I have always wanted a family, I just haven't been able to get the right kind of cooperation. I am as conservative and as mainstream religious as anyone in this town and of course I am no danger to women, but it seems that you almost have to *prove* all of this before anyone will trust you. It probably doesn't help that some of my colleagues are doing very well and went in with nearly unbelievable financing. I can think of one office where the waiting room decor alone had to cost $100,000. My place looks very third world compared to that. > As far as advertising, I've pretty much stopped. I spent thousands > on advertising and had results similar to yours. In my limited > experience, advertising (such as print, radio etc.) in general > doesn't work for acupuncturists. When I stopped advertising I went > from 4 - 5 new patients a month to 12 - 18. Go figure! I wonder what the significance of the poll results are - 60% reporting less than 4 new patients per month? > I will always do things that are free, or nearly free, such as > writing articles for local alternative papers and networking with > MD's and busy acupuncturists who are more than happy to refer their > overflow my way. Hmm, I never thought that anyone would have any overflow. Wouldn't hurt to ask. The people I talk to about *this* issue, however, don't have enough. > Good luck! > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: > (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Pete Theisen Thursday, October 20, 2005 1:31 AM To: > Chinese Medicine Re: TCM - > demographics > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: > > Hi Christopher, Andrea! > > It would seem that the demographics would be good where I am, heavily > over 50 population, lots of really rich people. But, we have an > Acupuncture school here and the practitioner count increases every > year as they graduate class after class. I have also noticed that a > number of practitioners have well-employed spouses while I am single. > > > > I do know that nothing I have done for promotion in four years has > paid its way. The only thing I haven't done yet is TV and I am > getting ready to try that. > > I treat a lot of patients, but not enough to pay for the promotion > costs. The more I advertise/promote the more money I lose. > > Regards, > > Pete > >> I've made more than my expenses every month of my practice but one > > <snip> > >> Oh, Dear... What Pete wrote below is quite different from my >> experience > > <snip> > >> Blessings, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 wrote: Hi Andrea! Interesting that you share your details to put your experience in perspective. I would starve on the volume you are doing. As it is I am losing $2500 a month, mostly to debt service on the $40,000 or so it took to set up 4 years ago. I work a night job to support my habit of keeping my clinic open, and I have burned through all of my inheritance and retirement savings trying to get started. Since my job doesn't pay $2500 a month this is not sustainable. I have lobbied continuously for the Medicare acupuncture bill, but the answer is always no. The government wants us to get this education and provide this service - if they didn't they wouldn't authorize the student loans, they just want us to only serve those who can pay for it themselves. The thought that the market may have become saturated in at least some places has simply not occurred to them. Regards, Pete <snip> > I opened my practice here in February of this year. I do anywhere > from 5 to 15 treatments weekly, and I rarely did more than 5 in San > Diego. So I am busier and still growing, with lots of room for more > growth. I had been in a chiropractor's office until this month, who > only charged me 10% of my office visit fees as rent - this really > made it easy for me financially. I just started renting my own > office for the first time ever this month, at $325. One of the > advantages of practicing in a small town is that it is easier to find > more affordable office space than in the city. On the down side, the > economic base is much lower here, so I have lowered my fees. I > currently charge $75 for initial visits, $55 for follow-ups, and $25 > for seniors over 65. > > I am covering my expenses, but barely, averaging about $1800 per > month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 wrote: > Hi Pete, > > Have you tried specializing in an specific area of medicine, or > emphasizing in your advertising that you can address whatever topic > is currently in the news? Hi Andrea! I have lately been one-to-one networking with people who have collector cars, the group is quite senior, 50s or older. Previously, and still a little bit, I have been promoting myself to a computer group - average age there is 71. As I said, this is religion city. I can't do church though, I work my night job on Sunday morning. I guess I have to say I am specializing in senior issues, but I have some younger patients as well. There is a complicated emotion around paying for it. They seem to want it to be tremendously expensive, but then they want someone else to pay for it. That's why I am lobbying so continuously for the Medicare thing. <http://pete-theisen.com/> Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Nora wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm also in the process of writing a business plan (not a genre that > comes naturally, to say the least), and have appreciated and agreed with > many of the points made. However, I'd like to make a point or two in > Pete's defense. I also live in an area where there is a lot of > awareness of and demand for acupuncture, but which also has a school and > a goodly number of acu's who have been in practice 15-20 years or more > (I've only been practicing, part-time, for about 3 years; I'm also not > from this area, didn't plan on coming here and don't intend to stay for > more than a couple more years). Hi Nora! If it isn't a secret, where are you? Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Linda Gruber wrote: <snip> > his negativity has hit the end of a rope I think. Lets see what he > does with it. Hi Linda! What I do with it. I looked it up. <http://tinyurl.com/aez2l> " 84 used & new available from $3.99 Other Editions List Price Price Other Offers Hardcover (1st ed) $23.00 34 used & new from $2.99 " So the people who read it think it is worth $2.99 in the original first edition hard cover and $3.99 in soft cover. I hope you never go through what I have gone through. I told the original poster to have fifty times the money the experts would tell her to have not because I am negative, but because I did not wish her to inadvertently repeat my experience. If that makes me at the end of some rope, well, I guess you are the expert. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Pete, All I can say is " wow " . If I were loosing $2500 a month I would be moving on in short order. My practice would be in serious trouble if I were only getting 4 new patients a month. Heck, I get about 4 new patients a week and I've only been in practice since Feb 05. My rates are about 3 times the school rates, but I offer a whole lot more than what the students can offer. I personally would be suffocating in an environment like you describe (i.e. religious conservative, homophobic etc.). The fact that you have held out for 4 years tells a lot about your drive and I give you credit for that! Have you though about relocating? Perhaps you are simply not a good match for your demographics. Yuma AZ, doesn't have any NCCAOM acupuncturists and talk about 50+ population with money! If it wasn't hotter than Phoenix, I might have moved there. ;-) Good luck! Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Pete Theisen Friday, October 21, 2005 1:18 AM Chinese Medicine Re: demographics Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: Hi Christopher! Thanks, interesting reply - my thoughts inline: > There are 2 schools here. I see it as a good thing as it raises the > awareness of the medicine in the community and provides a cheaper > option for those brave enough to have students practice on them. Seems here that the school's student clinic sets the rate. Also, the school seems very well funded - they full-page advertise *all* the time. > I have a wife, a 3 year old and another on the way and I am the only > one making money. Being single would be easier I think. :-) That's what I would think, but it appears that around here (serious, big time " conservative religion city " ) people want a *man* of a certain age or older to be married and have kids, otherwise they conclude he is gay - and they judge that a bad thing. Or they think he might be straight but a danger to women - that is also a bad thing. I am not gay and I have always wanted a family, I just haven't been able to get the right kind of cooperation. I am as conservative and as mainstream religious as anyone in this town and of course I am no danger to women, but it seems that you almost have to *prove* all of this before anyone will trust you. It probably doesn't help that some of my colleagues are doing very well and went in with nearly unbelievable financing. I can think of one office where the waiting room decor alone had to cost $100,000. My place looks very third world compared to that. > As far as advertising, I've pretty much stopped. I spent thousands > on advertising and had results similar to yours. In my limited > experience, advertising (such as print, radio etc.) in general > doesn't work for acupuncturists. When I stopped advertising I went > from 4 - 5 new patients a month to 12 - 18. Go figure! I wonder what the significance of the poll results are - 60% reporting less than 4 new patients per month? > I will always do things that are free, or nearly free, such as > writing articles for local alternative papers and networking with > MD's and busy acupuncturists who are more than happy to refer their > overflow my way. Hmm, I never thought that anyone would have any overflow. Wouldn't hurt to ask. The people I talk to about *this* issue, however, don't have enough. > Good luck! > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture > <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: > (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > Chinese Medicine > Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of > Pete Theisen Thursday, October 20, 2005 1:31 AM To: > Chinese Medicine Re: TCM - > demographics > > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: > > Hi Christopher, Andrea! > > It would seem that the demographics would be good where I am, heavily > over 50 population, lots of really rich people. But, we have an > Acupuncture school here and the practitioner count increases every > year as they graduate class after class. I have also noticed that a > number of practitioners have well-employed spouses while I am single. > > > > I do know that nothing I have done for promotion in four years has > paid its way. The only thing I haven't done yet is TV and I am > getting ready to try that. > > I treat a lot of patients, but not enough to pay for the promotion > costs. The more I advertise/promote the more money I lose. > > Regards, > > Pete > >> I've made more than my expenses every month of my practice but one > > <snip> > >> Oh, Dear... What Pete wrote below is quite different from my >> experience > > <snip> > >> Blessings, http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Messages are the property of the author. Any duplication outside the group requires prior permission from the author. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Christopher Vedeler L.Ac. wrote: <snip> > If I were loosing $2500 a month I would be moving on in short order. Hi Christopher! I don't have the option of leaving in either long or short order. I was seriously injured in an automobile accident a while ago and I am not sufficiently healed to move, the prognosis is that I will never heal completely. I can see patients without impairment, but moving my practice would be too much strain. > I personally would be suffocating in an environment like you describe > (i.e. religious conservative, homophobic etc.). Well, don't think me a saint or a philosopher, I am a religious conservative myself and the homophobic problem would follow me anywhere. Everyone thinks I am gay as it is, the last thing I want to do is move to somewhere where there are even more homos than there are in Sarasota, it would seem to be jumping out of the pan into the fire. > The fact that you have held out for 4 years tells a lot about your > drive and I give you credit for that! > > Have you though about relocating? Perhaps you are simply not a good > match for your demographics. Yuma AZ, doesn't have any NCCAOM > acupuncturists and talk about 50+ population with money! If it > wasn't hotter than Phoenix, I might have moved there. ;-) I have a Florida license, took the Florida test back in the day when Florida was giving its own test. My license is not easily portable. I have visited Yuma and I enjoyed my visit, but it didn't strike me as home. Regards, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Hi Pete, I'd like to see your promo piece. Acupuncture and Chinese Herbal Medicine 753 N. Main Street, Suite C-1 Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 Pete Theisen <petet wrote: Linda Gruber wrote: > Pete, > I just read a book titled Happiness is a Serious Problem. Hi Linda! Interesting suggestion. Why do you think this is relevant to demographics, business climate, advertising response and business plans? I send out a promotional piece. Everyone I show it to thinks it is the best they have ever seen. It bombs. I know, I should read a self-help book on happiness. I am trying to understand you, but . . . Want to see the best promotional piece my friends have ever seen? I have a few left if you send me your address. Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 Hi Pete, I guess it is true that if something costs more, people think it must be more valuable. Your position does indeed sound tough. It sounds a bit like you have mis-located yourself, between market saturation and a church-minded community that you can't participate in. Good luck. I hope it gets better for you soon. Acupuncture and Chinese Herbal Medicine 753 N. Main Street, Suite C-1 Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 Pete Theisen <petet wrote: wrote: > Hi Pete, > > Have you tried specializing in an specific area of medicine, or > emphasizing in your advertising that you can address whatever topic > is currently in the news? Hi Andrea! I have lately been one-to-one networking with people who have collector cars, the group is quite senior, 50s or older. Previously, and still a little bit, I have been promoting myself to a computer group - average age there is 71. As I said, this is religion city. I can't do church though, I work my night job on Sunday morning. I guess I have to say I am specializing in senior issues, but I have some younger patients as well. There is a complicated emotion around paying for it. They seem to want it to be tremendously expensive, but then they want someone else to pay for it. That's why I am lobbying so continuously for the Medicare thing. <http://pete-theisen.com/> Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2005 Report Share Posted October 22, 2005 I have been trying to hold my tongue for this discussion, but....I guess I don't understand the problem. There are sick people everywhere. I am in St. Pete florida. There was a school here for 20 years There are at least a hundred acupuncturists practicing in the Tampa Bay area. I have 10 with in 3 miles of me. We are the newest clinic in the area. We have been here 2.5 years and currently see about 60 patients a week between 2 aps. 90 percent of our new patients come from referrals. Our patients get well and educated. We spend time with them and work with all aspects of TCM and make sure that they understand what we are doing. If you have a pleasant, professional clinic and approach and you make people well as quickly as possible they are happy and will refer. If you don't they won't. We stopped what little ads we had about a year ago, just raised our rates, looking to expand and had 7 new patients this week. Its not the community, its not the people or their beliefs, promise...... Bob < wrote: Hi Pete, I guess it is true that if something costs more, people think it must be more valuable. Your position does indeed sound tough. It sounds a bit like you have mis-located yourself, between market saturation and a church-minded community that you can't participate in. Good luck. I hope it gets better for you soon. Acupuncture and Chinese Herbal Medicine 753 N. Main Street, Suite C-1 Cottonwood, AZ 86326 (928) 274-1373 Pete Theisen <petet wrote: wrote: > Hi Pete, > > Have you tried specializing in an specific area of medicine, or > emphasizing in your advertising that you can address whatever topic > is currently in the news? Hi Andrea! I have lately been one-to-one networking with people who have collector cars, the group is quite senior, 50s or older. Previously, and still a little bit, I have been promoting myself to a computer group - average age there is 71. As I said, this is religion city. I can't do church though, I work my night job on Sunday morning. I guess I have to say I am specializing in senior issues, but I have some younger patients as well. There is a complicated emotion around paying for it. They seem to want it to be tremendously expensive, but then they want someone else to pay for it. That's why I am lobbying so continuously for the Medicare thing. <http://pete-theisen.com/> Regards, Pete http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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